Transcript

Hello? Oh, yeah, it's working. Yeah, it's working now. All right, thanks, Andrew. Amwa, can you hear us now? Yes, I can hear. Perfect, thank you. Welcome again, everybody. So, should we start with agenda item one, Tracy? Yeah. Okay. So, hello, I'm Councillor Claire Potter and I'm the Chair of Skills, Economy and Growth. If I could go over to members on my right, starting on the row on the left, my left. I'm not sure if Councillor Martins can hear us yet, just to check. She's on there. Councilor Martins, can you hear us yet? I think Amwa can hear us, so... Has she responded? Yeah. I'm going to ask her to log back out and log back in. Okay. Okay, let's take that. Okay, shall I continue? Okay, back over to the back row. Councillor Pinkerton, Kesnoff Ward. Councillor Davis, Stoutenay Timwood. Councillor Root, Victoria Ward. councillor to that king's park ward and vice chair of the commission councillor smith stoke newton ward nice to see you councillor robert's candy member of the ward thank you members um i'd just like to note that we've had apologies from councillor narcross and we've got councillor martins online who i think can hear us now is that she can't still can't hear can i just confirm that you can still hear i'm walking here okay hello we can hear you oh i can hear now great lovely okay we are back on track okay i will come to our guests when we do the item moving on to item two there are no urgent items and the order of business is as laid out in the agenda item three do members have any interest to declare none that's the route um i just want to declare it's not a financial interest but i i um am actively involved in a campaign in my ward about hgvs which may become relevant at some point during the course of the evening thank you councillor roo and i think each of us as ward members has perhaps got something relevant um so if you feel that it's useful to illustrate then you are welcome to use to use that example councillor smith yeah i'm uh an exec member of the london road safety council so i don't know if that's a i'm interested to hear thanks thank you councillor smith okay so moving on to the substantive item um sustainable transport and hackney's transport strategy 2026 to 2035 so the overview and scrutiny function conduct a public engagement survey in um may june of last year with residents in the borough the survey asked residents to submit their feedback and suggestions for topics of discussion in the work program for scrutiny commissions for for seg many of the comments received from residents related to transport in the borough both public and private these comments range from suggestions to improve active travel and accessibility to concerns about traffic management and the air pollution from traffic the commission acknowledges that some of the comments from residents have been covered by this commission and other commissions fairly recently and also to support this item we've also provided links to those previous meetings where which were provided in the cover sheet of the agenda for background information um so this meeting will look at sustainable transport and consider the council's work in relation to developing the new transport strategy for hackney our discussion will cover the consultation plans for the new strategy 26 to 2030 2026 to 2036 and the evidence base that underpins the um development process while also seeking to to address the concerns raised by residents related to boundary roads accessibility on pavements active travel and traffic management so that the presentation to support the hackney's transport strategy discussion is on pages 11 to 32 in the agenda so i'd like to welcome um to this meeting from the london borough of hackney we have council sarah young who is the cabinet member for climate environment and transport we've got tyler lynn linton who is the assistant director of street street street scene we've got tobias newland the senior transport planner and we've also got geetha mooney who is the director for environment and climate change so to start i would like to invite council sarah young to mute my microphone before an introduction before we move to the office of presentation by tyler i believe first okay thank you thank you and i know we're talking about the hackney transport strategy that we are in the process of developing for the next decade but i think it's worth a little look backwards to see how we got to where we are now to the last transport strategy which we're still in lasted from 2015 to 2025 it's a long time if we think back to 2015 things were pretty different um way back then and it's it's worth remembering that the reason that we have a strategy is so that we we when we're making decisions day to day on the hgvs going down the road or on the you know line bikes that we might be tripping over um we're doing that within the context of a set of decisions that we've made which are really strongly evidence-based and understand the whole picture so we're not just looking at each thing on its own we're looking at it in the context of the whole borough the borough in the context of london london in the context of the country and indeed you know the international don't really want to mention international issues today but um the international issues affecting us as well and that we are today looking at sustainable transport and of course sustainability is really key in in transport and how it affects us so i want to just for a moment think back to 2015 and how we have um converted the the transport strategy for the last decade into our policies and our corporate plan which is the sort of um bureaucratic term for what we're actually going to do in hackney um for this period so back in 2015 um we said that hackney's transport system would be a model for sustainable urban living in london it will be fair safe accessible equitable sustainable and responsive to the needs of its residents visitors and businesses facilitating the highest quality life standards of life standards for a borough in the capital and leading london in its approach to tackling its urban transport challenges of the 21st century and i'm only going to read a tiny bit more because i think it's really worth having this in our minds the vision is consistent with the mayor of hackney priority of tackling inequality and the desired outcomes in our corporate plan this will contribute to the objectives of the plan such as and this bit's really key safeguarding clean streets that are friendly for pedestrians and cyclists so we've put right there we put pedestrians and cyclists at the top of our pyramid of priorities ensuring a high quality built environment and working with residents and london-wide partners on a range of sustainability issues including tackling poor air quality so that was the introduction to our strategy back in 2015 and we know that you know how we travel around um the borough and in and out of the borough affect absolutely all of us all of our families all of our friends the businesses in hackney um you know the doctors and nurses and the teachers and the um you people in the fire brigade who look after us and it's absolutely key to all of our lives so whether we're visiting a playground whether we're trying to run a business whether we're trying to access emergency services this is absolutely central um the the things that we've really focused on are um being able to breathe clean air um having the best possible life expectancy so that's living healthy lives not whether i'm eating a decent healthy breakfast but my life being being able to live as healthy a life as i can and transport supporting that and making sure that we can um continue to live well in hackney as as well as we possibly can making the borough sustainable for the long term and that's taking into account that it's getting hotter it's getting rainier we're you know greater risk of flooding um and the emissions that we produce as a borough um affect not just us but also those around us so when we when we folded that when we interpreted that into our corporate plan and our strategy um in uh from from the 22 after 2022 and the manifesto um we had about one two three four five bullet points of priorities one of which was really to look at our main roads and develop a main road strategy and second was to encourage all cyclists to cycle safely and considerately and so really focusing on how people cycle and how we provide for cycling to make it safer for pedestrians and cycling routes and to enable children to get to school safely to really prioritize public transport so buses um future transport schemes and main roads and to take urgent action on hackney's dangerous roads and junctions working towards vision zero so referring to the road safety work um being a primary consideration of all the schemes so that is just to remind us why do we do this what's important about it and what were we looking at when we set our priorities up until now and i think that uh tobias and tyler are then going to tell you what we've done so far and what we're thinking about for the future thank you very much chair pilot linton assistant director for street scene i'm going to hand over in a second to tobias who's our policy officer but just to build on what councillor young said um we are currently speaking to the public we are currently engaging on a new transport strategy as a replacement for the existing one which was written in around 2013 2014 and covered the period 2015 to 2025 um clearly a lot has changed during that time um but transport still impacts everyone and it's not a surprise that you would have heard that very strongly from your own um public engagement at its simplest traditionally transport is around moving people or goods and as soon as you leave your house you're in the transport system if you don't leave your house you're probably making use of something that was delivered somewhere so everybody every day is impacted by the transport system not every part of the transport system is within the remit of a london borough um one of the parts of the transport system that is is the land that our public highway that we manage as hackney council that space that real estate that is within our remit and it is quite a lot of space and i think one of the biggest changes in the transport industry in the last 30 years has been a recognition that transport isn't just about moving people but it's also about place and space and making decisions about how we use that that space in our cities um so the transport strategy at its core will be around how do we how do we as the council influence how people and goods move around our borough but also how do we use that space that that our road network sits on in the other main challenge is that there are so many different needs and the key word is probably balance it's a system that we are constantly trying to balance all of the different needs um of that system in in a sort of harmonious way where we can try and meet as many needs as possible while minimizing the harms that that come from things like combustion engines that create carbon and air pollution so it is a big challenge and that's why it is so important that we hear from residents which we'll talk about the consultation process and that's why it's so important that everyone goes on uh to the survey that's live now until june gives us uh their perspective on transport network and hackney it's just a small point but the evidence base that's online now that anyone can read is the draft evidence base it will become the final evidence base when we've considered and collated all of the responses that come through the current survey so our our evidence base is informed by the survey that's out right now so it's really important everybody goes on and um has their say and now i'll trace if you just want to go to the next slide i'll hand over to tobias to talk a little bit about um some of what's in that evidence base online thank you chair good evening chair um my name is tobias newland a senior transport planner most of my early slides have been very well covered by and tyler linton um the only thing which i haven't mentioned so much is the hour we're currently in a stage of consultation engagement which goes on until monday the 9th of june roughly 12 weeks and it started just at the end of last month next slide yes so it's the first part of um of engagement consultation and we hope as part of the feedback we receive we can add to our draft evidence-based draft transport strategy we'll actually draft the transport strategy and come back with a draft text and we will take this to full public consultation in the autumn of this year next slide the draft evidence base is actually online um so the actual engagement consists of two parts it consists of a really open wide-ranging survey uh on issues which we face as a borough and it consists of that evidence that evidence-based data space which i mentioned as well and to help um break it up into manageable chunks we've the way we thought about it in terms of asking people was to look at three areas of of issues the first one is transport basics and that is um how how do we connect our places what are the problems people have getting around um and how do we make those places quality places places worth getting to and the third element of the transport basics is if we are involved in new places such as we might be in regeneration and housing how do we ensure that the transport and design of those new places fits in with our vision um and with each of these sections um that's the first section and um to illustrate that i've got three illustrative slides from the evidence base and followed by the three questions the way we've raised them in the survey so the first slide is to do with um a breakdown of how how many residents travel now and you can see that the headline is that we are already very sustainable in our transport in the sense that 87 percent of residents residents trips are by public transport transport walking and cycling um and 65 percent of rest of households do not own a car um and then the chart on the bottom left on the bottom left is a breakdown of the different modes probably can't read it but big segment on the left is our walking mode share which is more than half trips in hackney which is astonishing really and when you work out on a london level we have combined walking and cycling trips in hackney um quite substantially more than anywhere else in london so we are in a sense leading the way in sustainability next slide and this we've to elicit to support the walking element of a strategy we've done some mapping of where people are walking the most we've done some uh modeling and we've got some consultants to to find out where our main walking maps walking areas are and a note for top right left you see is 53 percent of trips are walking next slide and we're also looking backwards um at performance of how we did our transport strategy um from 2015 and one example of this is to look at uh public transport and i know we have some limited control of public transport because a lot of it is controlled by tfl but we are still lobbying monitoring and campaigning for better public transport including buses and we have noticed that there is a decline in patronage on many of hatton's buses 20 on average which is uh much worse than most of london and here you have some route maps of some of the uh worst affected routes in terms of patronage decline uh next slide yeah these are the three questions transport basics connecting places um new developments housing and jobs and creating quality places are worth connecting up i won't read the uh full text on each one but those are that's what i mentioned before so now we're looking at the second section questions next slide please and this is to do with safer greener and healthier transport um you can imagine this as sort of the unintended consequences of transport um like accidents and pollution and um one example of that is road casualties and you can see that we've been monitoring our road casualties uh that this chart here goes back to 2008 and you can see that we've made some substantial progress in the first years of this uh covered by this chart but since then since about 2013 it more or less plateaued it's been up and down and you can see it went down during the covid year but it's come back up again so we have a massive challenge if we are to move towards a situation where we have no um killed or seriously injured um people live from road collisions uh by 2041 which is our target uh next slide and another thing we are doing is to try and um decarbonize transport in in and one one example of the effort of this is our electric vehicle charging point um program and we are aiming to install 3 000 guard points in the next couple of years actually two to three years and there are already almost a thousand which are operational by january 25. next slide and another impact of transport amid of different types of transport is whether it's active or not and that has a tremendous impact on the health of our instance um directly through exercise and also breathing in uh toxic air from uh exhaust and we are mapping uh the prevalence of different uh chronic diseases such as uh cardiovascular diseases you won't be able to read it because it's a bit blurry but yes bottom left is cardiovascular disease by ward um top right is childhood obesity uh by ward um and yeah next slide please um these are the issues as expressed in our questionnaire we have five of them and we are asking people how much do you agree with each of these is or how important is it is each of these to you and then there's a great big space underneath where people can scribble what they like and so there's quite a big free text element to our engagement so it's safer secure cleaner air greener streets and places lower carbon emissions and healthy next slide please the final set of questions which we're looking at are questions about fairer transport um how how do people and what are the equity impacts of different types of transport in the way that we get around and as part of that um we're looking at how different people people get around in different ways according to their um demographics and one thing is to look at the way that disabled people uh travel um surprisingly disabled people walk more than non-disabled people or they appear to from the latest difference that we have um i'm not i'm not totally going to speculate about why but it may be to do with um intersectionality of the fact that disabled people may have a lower income than um abled people and that might have an influence on car ownership that's just a guess um next slide please and in terms of car use as well as electrifying um the car fleet through charging points and encouraged by charging points we're seeking to to have a more kind of sharing use of cars through our program of expanding car clubs so that's one of the um ideas that we've been developing over the past 10 years and we've now got 180 back-to-day car club vehicles and 80 with other vehicles which float around the borough three providers uh next next slide please and overarching in in terms of looking at the impact of transport in terms of equity is the effect on our planet and we are very much looking at working towards the mayor of london's net zero target and as part of the london mayor's transport strategy there is a target that is quite a radical reduction in car transport and it's 27 based on the 2018 baseline and on the bottom left you can see that we are monitoring prior dft statistics the um annual traffic in hackney and you can see a very familiar dip caused by the covid pandemic followed by um a bounce back um but still below um pre-covid levels next slide and these are the four um equity issues that we're asking in our survey assist to all um particularly to do with disabled giving access to disabled people to travel equitably um equitable child-friendly affordable and those those are the final group of four questions which are in our survey i think that might be the end or there might be one more slide ah there are a few there are a couple more slides sorry i forgot about those uh this is a high level timeline and it's showing that we are planning to uh currently in our engagement period and we will be going to uh consultation on our draft in the autumn and then hopefully taking the final strategy to full council in the middle of 2026. next slide please and as a result and as part of our engagement we're doing a lot of uh meetings with key stakeholders such as living streets london cyclone campaign or northern travel watch uh freight operators taxis como uk which is shared transport sustrans campaign of transport we're also looking taking our message out to the different areas of hatney through neighborhood forums neighborhood panels schools the zen business network and disabled and harder to reach groups such as disabled people younger people and religious groups and we're also exploring um sort of a new way of consulting really which is called deliberative engagement and we're we've got some very excellent um interest from the academic sector in exploring how do we take some of our most contentious transport issues and get away from the sort of social media wars that we often see and the battles that we have in transport and and come to a more consensual view and techniques such as mediation and citizens juries and we're we're looking at developing a kind of low cost lightweight version of deliberative engagement to accompany the strategy and then also within the council we are looking at scenario doing some scenario planning with the high level leaders within the directorates um yes so those are the four areas uh next slide yeah so that's the end of the presentation as i said the engagement is currently open and the survey online survey closes on monday the 9th of june thank you thank you thank you very much all for that presentation lots of food um food for thought there i thought that i could start off um so you obviously alluded to the mayor of runden's um net zero emissions targets being quite radical so it's obviously going to be very challenging you know to kind of reach that figure because we're talking um a traffic decrease that exceeds what's happened the last 10 years am i right um it is very simple question i know is this achievable and what might that look that look like in hackney if we get somewhere near near that i don't know who would like to take on that very broad question before i open it the open up to members thank you yes it is achievable it wouldn't be in the mayor's transport strategy if it wasn't achievable and i have i have faith in the um mayor of london's transport policy team the question is you know what package of measures is is the right mix to achieve it um and what we can't completely know is what the world looks like in 10 years um but broadly speaking we we have a pretty good idea of what you know of how effective different tools are at impacting traffic levels um you know motor car exists in most corners of the world certainly most cities we have a pretty good idea of what cities who have low levels of motor car truck use do to achieve that we conversely have a pretty good idea of of what happens when you take a different policy approach um there are certain sort of theories that we would probably debate in our industry whether the theories are laws but you know there is a very strong correlation between supply of road space and traffic where you see new roads being built you tend to see total volumes of traffic going up that's that's pretty much proven time and time and again with the exception of balancing that with restraint um so you can achieve so you can build new roads today is a pretty good day to be saying this you can build new roads and you know do some form of demand management on them like a toll in the hopes that your toll will balance the induced demand from building the new road so that's you know that's something that we see across the world um we know what london looked like before and after the central london congestion zone we have a pretty good idea of what impact that has with a pretty good impact of what um changing neighborhoods does to people's travel choices and behaviors um there was landmark studies around the turn of the century that looked at what what sort of package of measures both physical and in terms of support for people um achieves a good outcome in demonstration towns as they were called back in sort of 2000 2001 the the challenge is doing it at an appropriate level of investment and getting that balance right as well because transport infrastructure could be very expensive um so this is these are the sorts of challenges that we're trying to tease out in the transport strategy and what do we have control over which versus what do other levels of government or other agencies have control over um and of course in the financial climate it's it's all very difficult um to you know every business case has to be robustly just justified and rightly so um so these are the challenges but fundamentally um is that radical figure achievable by 2041 um my advice would be uh yes there would be a package of measures out there whether whether or not it's achievable in terms of the finance or or the other sort of circumstances but yes there would be a package of measures that could achieve that thank you and of course the point is about how how you bring people with you on that kind of journey okay so i don't know counter august cannelly was this in response to that i thought it might be so would you like to come in just a follow-up question on the on the same topic um counter leon talked about the transport strategy for the 10 years prior to this and it was helpful to find out what were the things we had in mind and what we were anticipating in terms of the headlines but in terms of practicalities when you look back to 2015 and 2025 now what were the points that you were able to properly and correctly and accurately estimate and what were the things that you felt that we missed out i mean it's no one's fault no one could predict it to call it for example things like that but it's you have you made any analysis of how we worked out our strategies what were the things we were able to correctly correctly and accurately diagnose and for example reduction on buses bus services in the borough things like that were we able to predict those things and how that experience is going to shape what we're going to do now for the next 10 years that's a great thank you uh great question thank you yeah it is it's really enjoyable actually for us to look back at that strategy and sort of judge what the council got right and what what it got wrong um amazingly quite a lot of the assumptions were pretty accurate i think if anything um things didn't change as quickly as we might have thought um in terms of new technologies yeah even back in 2013 yeah smartphones weren't that old at that time but had developed so quickly and changed the world so radically in a really short period of time so things like on demand um ride sharing let's call it as coined at the time um you know was really disruptive and was expected to be disruptive um but what we didn't anticipate was that moving into other forms of transport so we we were predicting the rise of and and quite frankly concerned about the rise of um ride sharing on demand in your the convenience of being able to to book a motor vehicle um potentially leading to a huge increase in motor traffic um that that did happen but i think it's kind of balanced out a little bit but back in 2013 that was that was one of the main areas we were really worried about changing changing london and not necessarily for the better that seems to have balanced out but what we didn't anticipate was all of the other forms of shared micro mobility as we call in the industry so electric scooters electric bikes being available to the same app looking back that probably looked like uh probably as an oversight we probably should have seen that coming but i'm not sure anyone did at the time um i think i'm not sure if it made into the strategy but we were certainly talking about self-driving cars back then that certainly hasn't hasn't come about but again it could over the lifetime of this plan next 10 years that's obviously not something we have a direct influence over but will impact hackney as a place um we did recognize it came up earlier we recognized the challenge of main roads and the challenge of keeping freight moving in london that's something that was recognized in 2015 there was a very very clear action to develop to deliver develop a freight action plan which we did there was a 10-point plan um but i don't think anyone's cracked freight in in london i think that still remains a big challenge and i would certainly expect it to be something that features in in the next strategy um so yeah i think those are probably my personal top three we were having a conversation within the team earlier today about exactly this um and um and tyler was reminding me that um actually what the strategy allowed us to do is when something really unexpected happened like covid what the strategy enabled us to do was understand what approach we would take so we knew what our priorities were so even dealing with something that absolutely hit everybody in the face we could say actually our priorities here are sustainability are you know broadening the pavements allowing us to um allowing people to um what was it called socially distance um so we could apply those policies in the terms of the strategy so although can't predict everything that's going to happen what you can do is say we know what our priorities are here and we will apply them you know even in this emergency situation and actually what that meant was that the changes that we made within this team not thanks to me obviously i wasn't here um what you were much much more consistent with our strat with our strategic approach and priorities than perhaps in other areas where the council just had to kind of swing itself around so there are some real benefits to understanding what are your priorities you know and then you're ready for those emergencies that you can't predict may i chair come back in on that point um that's just it's such good and that's that's the big one of course you mentioned it is exactly halfway through the plan a pandemic happened and i think um we were probably you know very early on conscious that as soon as you leave your house you're in the transport network people are just being asked to stay in their house except they still need food they still need to access essential services still need work um and exactly as council young said it was essential to have the strategy behind us to understand even though it's just the evidence base that was in strategy how do people get there get their food in hackney how do people get around what do we need to prioritize um what's consistent within the council's strategic framework and now let's look what's in the toolbox and that that meant that we were able to move really quickly early on and some of those things we you know are lost in the fog of time um because you know we all have different memories of it but early on in the pandemic there was emergencies around social distancing and making sure people could queue outside of supermarkets you know in a socially distanced way and we were able to enable that consistent with policy because we we had a good policy we had a good strategy that told us as officers where the sort of envelopes of that policy was so we we could put a place measures to deal with the emergency off the back of the the longer term strategy that was really unexpected but crucial okay members um looking to anywhere else in order so council route and um answer davis and then council and then can we talk to as participants? okay thank you very much chair um i'm going to sort of start at the beginning in terms of consultations um hats off to you actually for a really impressive array of engagement approaches outlined in the presentation and also a good followed list of stakeholders that you want to reach out to which i think is great um but i am worried about consultations because i know that there are different sorts of consultations that we have to carry out and your department obviously is one of the most kind of consultation heavy departments that we have in in in the council um and unfortunately you are carrying something of a burden a legacy of covid in terms of um um quite a lot of raw feelings still about the way that the ltns were not consulted on or consulted on in a particular way that didn't go down too well um and i think that i'm a bit disappointed i suppose with what i'm seeing here in terms of explaining what the consultation is going to be about what you're going to use the data for and it's great that you're having two consultations one on this evidence gathering and another later on on the strategy but i do worry that people will fill out the first consultation and then think uh well i've done that why would i do another one you know that's that's a real worry and i also feel that part of the problem with the ill feeling that the residue if you like from the ltn consultations is that people didn't understand exactly what they were being consulted on um and lots of people obviously felt that it was a referendum and it wasn't a referendum ever but that needs to be spelt out really clearly so at the moment when it says have your say it says here what's most important to you safer streets more bus routes better cycling infrastructure have your say in the survey below by monday the 9th of june but i think in fairness to the public we need to be saying to them how their views are going to be used how they are going to inform the work that comes out otherwise you end up with people saying well we gave our views and they ignored them because perhaps they don't realize that actually they're giving their views to try to frame something in a particular way see what i'm saying so so i just feel concerned i mean both i feel that you're obviously making a big effort with consultation which is great but i also feel concerned that people are going to feel again that they don't understand how these survey questions are going to be used and i think we could do better at explaining that and trying to give credibility to our consultations because actually we have some work to make up here at the moment sorry that was a rather um i know you did come and talk about consultations in general uh earlier on but it'd be good to have a response in terms you know across the broadness of this this discussion over to you i think tyler thanks i think it's a challenge i mean it's a challenge anytime there's a consultation especially for a strategy to be clear about how the results can impact the strategy i think it's also a when you get 20 000 responses like we we did to previous consultations to make sure that every one of those 20 000 people feels listened to because you know we naturally are going to need to summarize those responses into one place and address them in themes and that's going to lead to some people feeling at times when there's a really big engagement exercise feeling like their specific point um hasn't been addressed but we do look at all of them we do we do consider every single comment and in this case i think the fact that it's mostly open text box um also lends itself to understanding what people what the nuance is of people's experience what we didn't want to do we had a lot of conversation around around around this exact point um how do we want to learn as much as we possibly can from a consultation then how do we communicate back to people that we've listened and one of the things that we decided early on in consultation with the consultation team um was to go towards us open text text box approach because giving sort of multiple choice or weighted options or asking people to prioritize different free populated um phrases we thought on balance that would lead people to think that we were already steering them in a direction now at this stage the engagement we are we're absolutely 100 listening we've tried to put up information is that in as neutral way as possible um so that we can hear back from people in their own words you know so that that would be the first thing i would say how does that get translated into the actual strategy is well we read all the comments um um analyze them put them together into consultation report um and then feed that into the different themes of the actual report the challenge you're absolutely right will be being able to communicate how this exercise has fed into that one so i think that's a that's a good point i think that needs to come out in in the execution of how we do it i you know i think we need to show that this is what we learned through the consultations what we learned through engagement this is how it's influenced the document um at this stage we are doing as much this presentation we didn't pull it together specifics we didn't pull it together specifically for this meeting this is all you know a version of a presentation that tobias is delivering to dozens of locations so um yeah going out and that's a very very abridged version of our stakeholder list um stakeholder list forums as much face-to-face as we can do and you know the hope is that that allows us the time and space to be able to get into that point that you've raised which is oh yeah how how is this influencing the next step it's it's something i i i think it's best sort of done in this forum rather than just putting trying to communicate it online but i do take your point and we'll look at the information that we've put out online and see if we can't change that text to make it a little bit clearer thank you councillor young you wanted to come in yes did you want to come in to this point specifically before we move on yeah just a quick note on how we're doing this consultation i think it's really important that we're doing the two phases and i think it's absolutely key particularly in light of the way that the low traffic neighborhoods had to be introduced um during covid because the nature of the funding and the decision making process um that we are keeping it very open so we're not going out and saying you know we've already got a plan basically here we here here it is folks tell us what you think we are going out and saying what matters to you and in the conversations which will be a very significant part of this first phase of consultation we're able to say to people when you're attending your tra or your neighborhood panel you can say you can talk about what consultation is it's much more difficult to do that in a document because people won't read the whole document and also people do think consultation is a referendum and always feel irritated and when it doesn't go their way and i'm the same as anybody else in that but when you're having that conversation face to face with people in a meeting you can explain how this consultation works what's going to happen to it how we're taking into account their views and how we're going to feed back so i think that that more um kind of face-to-face version of consultation lends itself more easily to that okay so i think counters are going to specifically come in on consultation then i'll just say that we do have councillor davies councillor smith and councillor martins councillor martins can i check whether you wanted to comment on this particular point no it's another question oh great okay right um councillor said about consultations yeah great thanks jeff um just to build on what councillor has asked i'm wondering in the con well it feels quite loud um both in relation to the consultation for the transport strategy but also then the various other um consultations that will happen as you implement new policies under the transport strategy over the next 10 years um what specifically are you doing to reach to to to talk with and engage with and listen to harder to reach groups and those that might be um you know not actually inclined to respond to a consultation or to go to a to a meeting locally i appreciate it's challenging and i appreciate that there are limits to what you can do um but i think it's very important to listen to a balance of perspectives and i think we all know that some people are far more willing than others to turn up at the town hall and tell you what they think so i think that's a very important part of um ensuring that this sort of democratic participation and buy-in to a transport strategy that as you said in your presentation has a huge impact on people's lives so that's one question and then just second following up on councillor root's point around understanding the impact of a consultation and and this is both from for me and and members and for residents um i take the point fully on it not being a referenda a referendum but there is still a distinction between consulting with a community with a view to taking into account their sentiment towards a policy before going ahead and designing and implementing it and checking a policy with a community and conversations that i've recently had in the context of the chats with road ltn that's been contemplated have indicated that it's more the latter than the former and that wasn't necessarily my understanding so it'd be good to hear you know when you go out and consult on particular policies what is what why are you consulting is and how do how is that then taken into account and the design of the policy thank you i feel like there's two questions there i'm sorry i was listening so closely i've forgotten the first one so i'll take your second one and then hard to reach groups um we we've got a lot of time into developing a consultation strategy alongside the consultation team who have a lot of experience reaching different groups um by necessity we've only given a very brief um overview of it tonight but essentially we've got a very long list of stakeholder groups and channels of communication to reach different parts of the community um through standard you know standard and non-standard communication channels so your typical sort of advertising posters um through using different um community leaders to reach different parts of the community um i heard you know i'm in the office today and i hear um staff around me making phone calls reaching through to different community leaders in the community so it is is very active um exercise rather than being um sort of one-way flow of information um so in short um we've we've mapped out a number of different channels huge number of different channels and are following following through through different um communications email telephone in person um advertising in newspapers online social media so trying to reach as many people as possible within the sort of resource constraints that we've got i think it's a pretty thorough plan um your second point was your second point was around again a similar sort of theme um providing that reassurance and that understanding back to residents about how their views have influenced policy um on that point is probably worth distinguishing there are different types of communication um consultations for different purposes so we we don't typically as street scene we don't have very many policies plural that we we consult on that this is the main consultation exercise for our main policy our main strategy um and it's you know once every 10 years and it's really thorough and three months the different channels the different channels of communication um when we are implementing those policies we are doing uh targeted project specific consultation so we're trying to to reach people in the areas where we're delivering schemes so i mean the the most the one that's on everyone's minds is low traffic neighborhoods but in a given year we've got a hundred different schemes that we're talking to people about and some of them we're sending five letters because it's very putting in one one traffic hump or one small change to one junction and we're mailing posting letters the most directly located people and that's in recognition of we do recognize that there's can be consultation fatigue so you're constantly getting things from street scene um and not getting that feedback of how how my view's been heard um so we try and balance that with who we target and how um so yeah the bias has just shown me a slide with some of that um some of that summarized um and and it's around being you know really focused in an area and focused on different groups and different users and putting that sort of face-to-face time to make sure that we're having those conversations to feedback how where things have changed and we do change we do make changes to schemes and we do feed that back to people who who we've consulted um but obviously you know there are very very strong views lots of different views and not everyone is going to feel like if they agree with the final final project final design so there's a you know that is a challenge that we we face trying to make sure that people who don't feel like they've been heard have been heard but there's always you know in a case of differing views there's going to be somebody who feels like there's they're not not heard um but i hope that's how so so so on this on the strategy we're very conscious to be um feeding back to the public on how their views have influenced the strategy and the policy and that's why it's a two-stage process so that's why we're doing as part of the reasons two stage process that's why we're doing this exercise now um it gives us space to take in the feedback that people give us over the next two months um reflect that back into a strategy and communicate how that's been influenced by the public um as part of that as part of that communication with the draft strategy in the autumn i hope that helps uh tyler um i think we'll leave consultations for now i think we've covered quite a bit we might come back some points and i think we go to counter davis now and just remind ourselves we've got council smith and council martins but council davis thanks chef and thanks for the presentation um first question i have two questions first question i think a few of us are interested in was acknowledging you know tfl as a key decision maker why do we do we have analysis of why bus ridership is down in hackney more than london but also london overall uh so that's the first question and the second question was around line bikes um and i know with contractual negotiations taking place this year or potentially maybe they've begun and i'm supportive of high bikes line bikes in general i'm just interested specifically what penalties we currently have and then also going into those negotiations i guess at a high level right now but what are we pushing for to get that greater accountability for line particularly with you know poor parking which i think all councilors probably hear a lot about but also you know the line bike quality and safety of the bikes themselves which i often hear are maybe deteriorating um we've heard it reported that you know maybe some other councils have potentially managed to get certain things like brendon council and getting poorly parked bikes removed so yeah it would be good to understand where we're at with that and how that feeds into the strategy thanks yes thank you i'll take the second question first i didn't actually quite hear the first question for tfl so i'll take the lime question and then perhaps do you want to take it then maybe okay um yeah as you mentioned we are currently in the tender process for a new contract for um dockless bikes um or cycle higher um i can answer your question around what is in the existing contract we you know we were really clear in the contract with lime that we had uh performance indicators around obstructions on in the in the pedestrian environment yeah so we do have we do have contractual leverage in the current contract with lime around that point and we've been working with them um on that point and through contract performance management holding them to account and exercising um some of that leverage um we we do have in the contract a penalty from them to us to pay if they're missing their kpis on keeping footways clear one of the lessons learned going into the next contract certainly i mean it's it's it's very clear public and members um that they want to see and and amongst us as officers um better performance in terms of keeping pavements clear so we have built in into the tender process uh a stronger weighting around you know it's it's for the tenderers to describe in their tender how they will meet that target and what they propose to put in place so it's it's not a competitive dialogue process where we're at this stage negotiating with suppliers and asking for specific things it's an open tender process where we set the specifications and then we say how are you going to meet this specification and we'll have a threshold a pass fail threshold and then and then a sort of scored waiting system um so what we're asking for in the tender is very clearly a plan and mechanisms for ensuring that pavements are kept clear but we won't know exactly what those look like until we appoint a um a point of provider if we appoint a provider one of the outcomes of a tender process can be nobody meets your specifications so at this stage that's a potential um outcome of the process uh the first question i believe was about transport from london did you want to oh yes sort of question and we were we're probably uh it's always a big claim to say we're the first but i think we were pretty close to the first to to insist that um dockless cycle hire is managed as if it was a docked scheme so we've installed 175 with plans to do more parking spaces um where bikes are meant to be parked and they're meant to be redistributed into those bays um the operator whoever it will be in the future i mean the current operator um is is meant to be using the app to geofence no parking zones speed restriction zones there's number one the sort of measures that we um negotiate as part of the existing contract and i think it's yeah fair to say that that works some of the time um we we do know that some of the time you're prevented from parking outside of a parking bay um we know that because we're spot checking all the time we're spot checking all the time and it does it does happen um i think we're also you know also conscious of the fact that it is a potential solution that brings a lot of benefit you know that unlike the 2013 scenario with very convenient ride sharing apps that we're really worried about increasing motor vehicle traffic on main roads that well there is some benefit because you know there's a there's a freedom benefit there's a convenience benefit there's an accessibility benefit for people who need to use um you know ride sharing type solutions um but it's fair to say that uh cycle higher dockless cycle higher has a potential to a very real potential um to to mitigate the impact of that other new technology i'm talking around in circles basically cycle higher is probably one of the reasons why we haven't seen an explosion in the last four years of ride sharing on our streets so you know there is a benefit it's definitely a harm to the pedestrian environment we need to balance that but there is a there's a real benefit to the to the the borough as you mentioned so we trying to get that balance right and how we apply the existing contract ultimately what we do want is a well functioning scheme that's well managed um and if we go back six seven years i don't know if you remember but there's a flurry of companies come and go and they go bankrupt and they leave london littered with cheap bikes i think we're a long way from there we have good um competition of operate amongst operators who seem to be a going concern so in terms of longevity this now looks like something that we're in a more steady state the market has settled a little bit and we kind of understand that we can we can work to improve this as a service um rather than sort of worrying about whether the companies are going to be here in a few months time can i just add about the dockless bikes just um i know that there's big big issues in my ward where they've been blocking residents access to their homes so it's not just about being on pavements and affecting mobility so was i right in what you just said is that you're not kind of stipulating yet something like the brent agreement where there's an agreement to remove the bikes within two hours that's part of your negotiation is that is that what you're saying because i think obviously the committee would like to be able to see something like that so that the bikes are removed within a very short time right and i'm sure our residents do as well so so just to give rish although the the 2026 to 2036 strategy will will very clearly address this point i think affecting the pedestrian environment is a with over half of hackney residents uh walking for them as their main mode of transport that is really important for the strategy in the short term cycle higher bikes should not be left in a place where they're blocking people's homes and those that feedback should come to us you know we i think we we say online um we provide a direct contact for the operators and say copy us in so that we can hold them to account yeah that that just should not be happening it's it is unacceptable and we i'm not saying that we are um you know allowing that to happen i think what we're trying to do is strike a balance so there would be provisions in the contract where we would have the ability to enforce in situations where there is not a health and safety issue i think we're trying to strike a balance around focusing on enforcing where there is a health and safety issue or an access to somebody's home issue absolutely prioritizing that um and striking the balance right in in sort of other situations that should just not that should not happen thank you tyler and i think tobias you were going to talk about the reduction of bus um people using the buses by 20 20 percent i think was also came so davis's question uh yes the answer to for the reason for the decline in bus patronage i suppose to be honest we don't fully know um we know that bus patronage did decline a lot during covid and over the whole of london and has been slower to recover than road transport and slower to recover than um trains um actually slightly worse than the london average and we also know that what people really value with a bus is that it's frequent and it's fast and almost every single bus corridor in hackney has suffered frequency cuts over the past five years and we've also noted that some routes have shown quite um a noticeable flowing and we are monitoring frequency we are monitoring speed very closely and using that monitoring information to lobby tfl and to justify um schemes which prioritize um buses over other types of traffic i think there is i i'm afraid i don't know the number of the bus but there is one bus that passes through no fewer than four gates so it's quite um 393 or something 394 yes um yes so speed frequency and the other thing which i haven't mentioned is the change in people's um working from home um so that people are not using the bus every single day to get to work maybe only using it two or three or four times a week thank you i think i'll move on to council smith now and then we've got council martins and council pinkerton council smith yeah thank you for the presentation thank you for all your work i mean you've got a tough job out there uh chair i've got some questions and some comments if that's okay to kind of mix them up a bit um i'm going to throw quite a lot of stuff at you so you might need to write some of this down um so with on the ltns uh why didn't we have a unified design language for them across the board so they all look exactly the same because i think that's confusing for residents um um just on equitable sort of access um do we have any discarded schemes for lower income residents um like travel buddies for elderly and disabled for example i know we've got the taxi card thing coming in i believe that's a trial um on the deliberative engagement that you mentioned um it might be an idea to maybe establish a hackney transport partnership with representative groups and maybe think about creating neighborhood transport forums in each ward just throwing out an idea there um question what we as hackney have control over in regards to smart traffic signals um prioritizing cyclists and buses in other words tfl might you know deal with all that i don't know who deals with it um and also sensor networks to optimize transport flows and reduce congestion do we have any powers to sort of do things like that um what are we doing about scooters on pavements massive issue um and an interesting question going back to the old strategy um did the old strategy as far as we're aware did it reduce through traffic because through traffic into the borough's 44 percent it's a massive problem you know when you go up the m11 or the m1 or whatever you're seeing like literally two or three miles worth of traffic coming into london going somewhere in london and a lot of that may be coming maybe not coming through hackney so i'd be interested to know if we think that that may have produced the old strategy may have reduced um the through traffic coming in i'm nearly finished here sorry um why haven't we thought about dispensations through the ltns for carers and taxi drivers um i think those two groups particularly the carers i come across a lot chair on the doorstep carers um you know really when they've got multiple sort of uh clients to see they're just getting held up and they can't see all of them and it's deeply frustrating for them um and then just one last comment here on the consultations um i don't want to go into this too much but i just want to say i think what's really important with consultation i spoke about this in the doorstep is that we need to explain how the decision has come about who it takes part in that decision so we have the executive that take part in the decision with traffic engineers that take part in that decision um and then we've got the general public now i think when we're on the doorstep we can explain to residents how those decisions come about i think they would be less likely to be sort of so troubled in regards to the sort of referendum aspect of how they think it sort of works if we are able to kind of explain that through the literature and also you know engaging with them sort of face to face and then i also think of consultations um you know consultations that don't amount to a veto for a particular group so for example the ltns would be drivers really that are kind of quite key and animated about being stopped driving yeah yeah nearly finished um so therefore there needs to be sort of equal representation in those consultations so that one group can sort of veto another if that makes sense so pedestrians need a voice cyclists need a voice public transport users need a voice and then the drivers need a voice but it can't just be a veto for any one of those groups so i don't know how one would go about establishing you're trying to make that work but i think that's an important consideration there are a lot of questions questions there and obviously cancer spiff did ask quite a lot of questions in quite short space of time i don't know if we can have a go i'm sure there's much of those with short snappy answers and maybe any follow-on detail if that's all right team i'll try my best your first question was why do ltns not all look the same the answer is they've delivered at different times in different places um and and they need to reflect the local situation probably the best example of that is hackney's first ltn that was recognized as an ltn and understood as an ltn and designed as an ltn was installed in 1974. it looks very different the the rules were different back then but even within the last five six seven years um understanding the rules and the tools that we do have changes so things like um what we can put on a sign and exemptions that we consider different dispensations how to do that it's constantly changing so just from one year to the next there might be a slight difference um but i agree to your point standardization is important and is probably something to strive for um you had a really good suggestion around sort of travel buddies scheme i think it's just a nice suggestion um no we currently don't have anything like that but we um there are a schemes that exist that we can help promote deliberative engagement you made a couple of points about deliberative engagement i think that third point you made was a suggestion and we'll consider and take it on board was to set up a panel i think the difficulty there is you know our approach has been to try and make use of as many existing panels as possible um coming back on to your last point which i think is connected is how do you get a representative group that comes to transport and is very difficult there is so many intersectionalities and different different groups that it's it's really difficult you know do we group people based on how they usually travel well yes that's important for different points of view but is it more important on reaching different protected groups and then you get into reaching protected groups by how they travel you end up with you end up actually struggling to find people representing those subgroups and cohorts um because they end up so small so it's it's a good point try and get the balance right for the best example of where we've set out to try and get a representative view so we did commission representative pope in 2022 the polling company i i unfortunately i'm on the record i can't remember exactly what number it was it was significant five figure numbers of phone calls and they still struggled to get a representative sample in hackney they normally get a representative sample on a national level in the end um we accepted a sort of plus minus three percent confidence interval on about 800 responses i think they made over 40 000 calls to get 800 responses so there's this sort of practical difficulty in getting a representative sample um signals tfl manage signals we have a relationship with tfl we we sometimes fund upgrades to singles to bring them into modern standards right now not every traffic signal in london is controlled remotely they're sort of being upgraded as they go and if we have a scheme in an area we often end up paying for that signal to be upgraded so that it can but but we don't have direct control screws on pavements we also i'm afraid we don't have control of scooters on pavements um electric scooters unless they are part of a limited um higher scheme that's often which we are not a part of they're illegal on our roads the police have enforcement powers we work with the police to try and educate the public that takes the form of uh well you'll see our team um out and around the borough doing pop-up events from time to time trying to educate but we don't have direct enforcement powers through traffic this is interesting because in 2015 we didn't know the percentage of traffic that was through traffic we only learned that in 2018. i'm not sure the data existed in 2015 but if it did it would have been a smaller sample and prohibitively expensive to local authority um we now have four years worth of data from 20 different samples five years sorry 2018 2020 2021 2023 obviously those are years that fluctuate a lot what what i would say about through traffic is through traffic is impacted probably more from bigger regional global forces um recessions have a big impact on traffic volumes pandemics do other things like that um i probably can't sit here and say the 2015 strategy has attributable um impact on through traffic um except it it will have done because we've seen we've seen traffic decrease over that time and not increase in the same amount as other local authorities but i would say it is still an issue and it's still something that we have to address going forward and that is a more difficult challenge that is we have some influence but there are bigger bigger forces at play um especially i might just leave it there um for time and unless there's something you want to pick up dispensations for carers and taxis sorry you asked that question for lcns so we have been reviewing our exemptions for lcns consistently since we've put them in um taxi card it's it's trial but only in our policy isn't a trial it's only a trial in so far as the technology is a trial um as far as our policy is concerned taxi card is an additional cohort that is now exempt from our bus gates um i think is it this is this is a difficult policy conundrum because there will be a a balancing point where well first of all how you judge whether or not people are exempt how you set that criteria gets very invasive very quickly um so we've decided to use the blue badge as the threshold for exemption because it's got an established independent set of criteria and there's a team that deals with that um so it's it's fair in a way i guess there are so many different types of carers and i think also you've got to draw the line somewhere or you start to lose the benefit of the scheme finding where that is is going to be very difficult um both sort of pragmatically operationally but also from a policy perspective so it's a challenge um and thank you on your point on um uh explanation around decision making i think that's a good point we'll seek to do that i'm just counting young i was just going to add a quick note on through track music to my ears um so the policies that we have to um limit traffic into areas is really all about through traffic that's what we're trying to do we're trying to stop people who are driving through we are not stopping people who live in the area from driving it will take them a bit longer but we are trying to stop people who are driving through and we and what happens over time is you know waves and google maps and the other things you're following city mapper in my case stops telling you to go through that way because it's not the quickest way anymore so there's there are routes that we've blocked you can't go through and then there are other routes where it will stop saying you know coming through hackney because that's not the quickest way to get there now that doesn't solve all the problems and you know as councillor route mentioned the hgv is coming down victoria park road if they're coming down victoria park road to go down into the city they probably do have to come in this way you know there's only a couple of ways they could come so there will be some traffic that will have to come or maybe over time you know the mayor of london will bring that traffic through down the river or maybe by train or through some other you know that's the sort of bigger picture but for the time being that that transport that does have to come by road has to get there through some means ideally we don't want it coming through hackney unless it absolutely has to thank you uh tyler briefly if you don't mind thank you sorry i just wanted to reiterate what councillor young just said and clarify something i made statement i made earlier which is absolutely right the policies would have certainly reduced through traffic because it's we've seen a reduction in overall traffic we just don't have the baseline from 2015. thank you okay councillor martin thank you for your patience um would you like to ask your question thanks chair um i've got a couple of questions but i'll keep them very very brief um just similar to um councillor davis's point earlier about working with partners and like tfl and lime etc um but in relation to holding them to account in terms of making space for disabled users i just wanted to ask that um only because as we know through our casework um but also from personal experience i know when especially if you're trying to um as a carer trying to push someone in a wheelchair and then there's a line bike where there's a drop curb those line bikes are really heavy and i'm quite a small person so they can be really difficult to try and move but just speaking to other carers um as well i know they experience similar issues so just around that but also disabled users who may be in a wheelchair and don't have a carer with them it's then impossible for them to move it so just things around that and holding um those um third parties to account in terms of that um but then also um again in relation to third parties um particularly tfl in terms of reducing traffic on main roads um councillor young i know you are aware of the situation on board upon road especially and a lot of the residents have been asking questions about that and measures that we can take um to reduce that traffic on those roads um so again just wanted to ask a question around that um and then finally in terms of i guess which would be a wider piece of work in terms of behavioral change and why disabled users um or disabled people are tend to walk more um yes cost is an element i think was said in the presentation earlier but having being a carer and looking after someone who is disabled but also having um experience with other disabled people in my community um the main thing is when you get on a bus for example there are two prams on the bus they refuse to get off for example you end up walking it's the time you have to wait for a bus or or even trains are inaccessible a lot of them a lot of stations still inaccessible um it's things again like paving as well so and then you end up just walking or walking on the road rather than on the pavement itself because it's just so much easier um so yeah i just wanted to ask a question around that wider piece of work of behavioral change and how we're getting partners even things like uber and all these um kind of uh hell riding cabs for example a lot of them sometimes they see disabled user in a wheelchair and we'll just drive off and then you're then having to call another one so how are we working with partners with businesses with local people to have that wider piece of work of behavioral change and actually making sure that disabled people are part of our infrastructure and not just a side thought because even though we're in 2025 a lot of our infrastructure does not work for disabled people thank you thank you councillor martin so so we had do we have blind bikes is that right we had boundary roads and we had behavior change would you see them like that okay yeah tyler thank you very much for your questions line bikes you you're simply absolutely right blind bikes shouldn't be blocking drop curbs that's something that it's got to be loud and clear in the new tender as well as in the next transport strategy i think that's just something that we're hearing very clearly from the public and from members um and it's something that we'll you know need to find a really effective way of addressing the future um reducing traffic on main roads i'd say it's not just a matter of holding tfl to account they're obviously major partner in managing main roads um it is a bigger is a bigger issue than that it is about working with our neighboring boroughs which will have their own transport strategies um i think one of our neighbors is also consulting on transport strategy right now um so that is a is a bigger issue it's a regional issue um what one of the things is you know we used to have sub-regional transport partnerships set up and managed by transport for london those those don't exist in the same form as they once did um so there maybe is work to be done in some encouraging lobbying tfl to reset up those those working groups for officers and members um we we did publish a main roads tool well sorry there's a toolkit in it it's a main roads technical note um that we published in 2024 gave an idea gave a toolkit uh give an idea of the sorts of measures that that we can implement as a council there's 16 i think different things in the toolkit for main roads but in terms of addressing overall traffic volumes so those measures that are sort of within our gift will be around improving the environment improving the public realm the people in the area be around smoothing traffic flow um we do have a range of targeted measures um around managing traffic so whether it's changing where you can and can't turn on roads that you can't can't turn some main roads traffic management not necessarily neighborhoods traffic management um but in terms of getting that overall volume reduction that that is going to be something that needs to be done at a bigger scale um and it's going to involve conversations with neighboring boroughs and with others at both officer and political level um and certainly is again a theme that we're hearing over again over and over again from residents and members and i would expect to feature in in a strategy for the next 10 years um it's a really important really important and interesting point around the experience of disabled people using the transport network both um on public transport and in the in the public realm it it it's a challenge isn't it it's a challenge to get the message out around you know what the purpose of different spaces um and to communicate the different needs that different people have i think tfl are doing you know they're doing some really world leading stuff you know i think they're one of the first transport agencies in the world to have have badges that sort of say please offer me a seat and that seems like might seem like a small thing but actually that is that is the result of really deep conversations that tfl are having they do have workshops they have a standing panel with a range of representatives from different disability groups that's really important because i think probably one of the reasons why walking is high is because of you know how broad that that group is you know disability as a group it's very heterogeneous there's lots of different needs so you touched on the needs of people using wheeled mobility aids and wheelchairs and the experience of them using the bus um but we see we hear you know we hear similar stories from visually impaired people trying to get out and really good examples of bus drivers who know the protocol and they'll pull up to a bus stop and announce the number of the bus sort of verbally so there's good examples but it is is a work of progress and you know one of the things that we can do as hackney working with tfl is is we can remind them when we meet with them when we lock them that these are important issues to us and that we would support them and their business plan to put adequate resource towards um training um messaging advertising getting getting the message out so it's a good point thank you is that the right cones or martins have your questions great okay so i'm going to go now to council pinkerton that i'm that i'm going to ask a couple of questions and we'll see what time we have okay councillor pinkerton uh thank you um so as uh councillor martin's mentioned and as everyone will know um many of the the rail sessions in hackney remain you know fully partially or uh mainly inaccessible um so i just wanted to ask uh what extent are you monitoring uh how that inaccessibility is impacting on on different groups of people and their ability to access active travel or what alternatives they're taking if the if the rail train sessions aren't accessible for them and um what can we hope for with this strategy in terms of kind of lobbying or uh campaigning for for full accessibility at our uh rail sessions thank you so let's start and then tobias is going to fill in with the bits that i don't know about um we have a list of stations that we are campaigning to make fully accessible and we have our priorities in hackney and those come from you know from residents um and tfl has their list of stations that they're going to make accessible across london and most of our stations are not very high up their list unfortunately um but there are some where they have committed to making significant changes including hackney downs and does it stoke newington um there's one of our other stations is already sort of approved on is it oh it's dawson yeah dawson kingston okay um so they've already said they'll do those but we're still having to you know push um we work i mean this is sort of response more broadly actually to some of the questions people have raised um including yours councillor martin's about um you know falls pond road and other areas uh we work really closely with tfl actually and we've just recently had uh kind of informally had our report back on our funding and our programs for our next three years local implementation plan funding and and you know these programs so these we're looking at the 10-year strategy but these smaller what are we going to do this year next year the year after programs are all worked out with transport for london in terms of you know okay could you do this station would you do it this year um what does accessibility mean would it be better to do stanford hill or stoke newington those are conversations that we're having with tfl next month i think we're meeting with the um commissioner um with transport london commissioner andy lord um and in that we have a whole list of things that we are badgering him about um and we do get taken very seriously in terms of what our priorities are and you know that helps transport for london to work out okay of the things we can do within hackney bearing in mind we've got to look at every borough you know what are hackney's top three priorities which of these can we take forward and and how does that work in terms of you know what are the most expensive what are the most urgent in safety terms um you know accessibility terms sustainability terms so that those are really positive conversations in general um and the station accessibility is a huge problem in hackney we have you know we don't have any tube stations man of houses water almost on our turf but not quite um and that's not accessible and most of our train stations are not accessible so yeah it's a really significant issue and one that we will absolutely keep pressing on bias yeah i just want to give a small piece of good news in amounts of the gloom about stations and it is that our bus stops are now 100 percent accessible uh 100 of them are um and that involves an an incredible amount of very detailed work uh looking at the the vertical and the horizontal gap between the floor of the bus and the edge of the curb um and many many other detailed things such as the color scheme of the signage and the lighting that there's a huge amount of work that's gone on and it's very often overlooked i just wanted to point this out thank you um i think i will ask a couple of questions and then we may well be running out of time because everybody has a question but let's see we will go up until nine if everybody agrees with this item so i just wanted to raise um a question on behalf of some residents who knowing that we're having this scrutiny um meeting today got in touch um they were particularly concerned um about road traffic accidents on a busy main road where they lived and i think the junction were there where the building is i think because of the tur the signage in the road they feel there's a real risk of cars crashing into their building so i suppose the question is um how easily and fast are you able to act on this kind of information i'm presuming that a query has been sent but it'd be just good to get an idea on how you would respond to residents and give guidance on how best they can present their evidence another another question after that would you like me to answer that question now or after you you could yeah so deaths on the roads and serious injuries the figures are far far too high i mean you pointed out that it's plateaued but it hasn't certainly dipped in it hasn't gone as low as we were aiming for back in 2015 when we drew those figures up i noticed in the statistics you didn't break down the type of road user nor did you break down where the accident tends to occur junctions you know um on straight runs etc so i don't know if you can provide some of that detail now and perhaps talk about strategically about how the measures that you would hope to be taking to kind of address some of that i know that's quite a big question but i did understand that junctions were quite an issue so it'd be quite interesting if you have got data on that and you're kind of thinking about that yes thank you it's a great question first of all i i i want to reassure the resident who sent in the question that we are constantly looking at um road casualties um transport for london have done a really good job in the last few years and have a online dashboard that anyone can see um it's not exactly the same information that we have we we tend to have information that's been verified um by the department for transport because sometimes the initial report gets changed up transport for london have actually published a version of the database that has more raw information than than we have so in terms of transparency is really good and and anyone can search for tfl road safety dashboard and they can find it online um we have officers looking for trends and we prioritize locations based on trends that that often sounds to people like does something bad have to happen before you'll do something but that's not the case i mean i it's just you would you would target the locations where something where there is a trend of incidents happening yeah first because that's it would in a way it would be irresponsible not to including the illnesses that is a difficult that is a more difficult thing to measure because it's less standardized but yes including their misses um it does take a while to investigate and deliver a scheme and it takes money so we're not able to do everything all at once but residents should you know they they should write in and say what they've seen write into us they could write into they can write into their ward councillor and it can be put through as a formal correspondence or they can write to streetscene.enquiries.hackney.gov.uk or if it's a transport for london road i think that this um piece of correspondence that you're referring to i think it was on the transport for london road network which we can we yeah i think it was pondsford street um we we can still pass that on to transport for london and we sit down and we look at trends on their road network as well um but residents can obviously write to them directly as well and i believe if you search online for tfl street care there's a reporting mechanism um that includes i believe near misses as well as general observations um you you asked where do we see the where do we see the casualty trends it is at junctions it's primarily at junctions and it's primarily at junctions on busy roads there's a direct correlation between volume of traffic and volume of collisions that's probably a function simply of exposure rather than anything else but we do tend to see what we do see in hackney that means that the top locations for casualties are pretty much entirely on the transport fund and road network because those are the roads that carry the most traffic so when yeah if anyone goes on that tfl road safety dashboard there's a map and you can look at where the clusters are um the there is a clear trend busiest roads carry the most casualties um what we what we what we are what we focus on is what we call vulnerable road users that's pedestrians cyclists and our two-wheeler use of motorcycle users motorcyclists are disproportionately overrepresented in casualty statistics it's it's been a positive trend in the right direction in the last few years years but historically it is by far the largest group of road casualties and it's it's a relatively small user group so you don't have as many people thinking about it but it is an area that's an area of big concern for us um does feature in statistics with pedestrians and cyclists the sorts of interventions available to us are fairly straightforward there's a toolbox um tfl will call them junction safety schemes um and there is a list you know tfl i think it's public information yeah there is a list of what where the priorities are based on on the casualty trends and um tfl and all the local authorities in london will be working through that list to try and implement as many as we can um as quickly as we can now to you just note on the team's responsiveness to those kinds of requests so i think we are in the process of arranging a date for a site visit to pontsford street at the rush hour in the morning um and that obviously you know the team can't turn up to every single report but they are extremely responsive to coming to have a look at areas and they often are junctions where residents are concerned you know carrying out reports evidence-based reports where appropriate and then it takes time for those to feed into proposals to transport for london for funding to carry out you know more kind of um more strongly database studies and then to work out what the answers are and i think one of the things residents can find really frustrating is they've reported something they've been reporting it for a while and and we haven't come and done anything yet um and often that's because actually it does take time to really look at not just what's needed here but what will the impact of what we do be on not just here but the next bit the next bit and the next bit um plus then we need to put in for the funding plus we need to carry out the studies and then a few years down the line the work does get done to you know make significant changes um as we've seen as we're now seeing at penbury circus for example you know and as we'll see at other um other major junctions so it it can be a bit of a slow process and i know for residents that can be quite frustrating um but the team are quite responsive about really thinking about what residents experience is not just looking at the you know the maps on the screen thank you currently now i notice two or three of my colleagues very keen to ask a question so i'm just in just time if you don't mind i'm going to ask them to present it in a one line and if you could come in a similar fashion for an answer that that would be great so i think it was kind of sedek cancer root and cancer smith so cancer smith it might be a challenge but one quick all right so that's the deck okay thank you it will be just one question and it's about um what you said about cooperation around boroughs essentially so matthias road just had an ltn introduced by islington what consultations sort of work was happening between islington and hackney because that is really impacting some of the hackney residents thank you chair countess the deck um the figures in your draft evidence base on level of uptake of cycling by ethnicity ethnicity um um i i found quite incredible and so and i i wonder what is being done alongside the implementation of transport schemes to increase the uptake of cycling among certain communities because i don't think it can be assumed that stopping people from driving will lead to them cycling and council route thank you my question is linked to the road accidents and safety and fatalities in particular because um hgvs are massively disproportionately involved in fatal urban accidents um and you said earlier that the freight action plan um has sort of not really worked it would seem and so um it seems to me that the the road safety and reducing hgvs and feeding that into the freight action plan for london more generally is going to be really important as part of our strategy so i wonder what you're thinking around that with things like construction consolidation centers and the strategic road network for freight deliveries and things like that how how you're going to be working with tfl on trying to tighten that and improve hgv safety okay who wants to go first i'll take the first one um it was specifically around engaging with islington we we have regular engagement with islington and we have um provided regular challenge around their plans we also have a mutual respect for um the governance of each other's boroughs um so we did push for modeling we did push for understanding what the impacts of the scheme would be we did push for trying to coordinate that sort of standardized design point that you've made um and and it's fair to say that they ask the same of us so it's a it's sort of ongoing negotiation but it is it is regular and it's robust um i think there was some really big um changes that islington made around um consulting with our residents and consulting with our members that was a direct um response to those meetings as well um um uh the cycling stats by ethnicity you're obviously right i mean that's something that we we look at ourselves and is is striking and you know i am open to ideas we've we've got a really good history of supporting different groups that are delivering services with different so we have good relationship with black riders association good relationship with um project being run out of the patriot youth club um good relationship with cycle sisters and others um um in early days yet i i think one of the big areas of opportunity is actually with shared mobility it's actually with cycle hire yeah we we don't have demographic breakdown of lime users um but from observation anecdotally um it's it's more representative of the hackney population just take a take a poll um than other forms of cycling and it's something that had been floated sort of academically over the last 20 years around sort of subconscious appeal of different um of different modes of transport intersecting with also the realities of different cultures but also the realities of different people's lives there's intersection with geography um it's a really interesting area um the short answer is we don't have a we don't have a straight answer to give you on how to broaden the appeal of cycling although we are interested in what seems to be happening with cycle hire and um it's something we would love to learn more about through the um engagement and counselor your your point on hdvs and ksis is a really good point london has led the way at a london level the london lorry design standard the direct vision standard is an incredible achievement um this is i'm not sure if you're aware but around 10 years ago something like that um pfm um it started off as a voluntary standard but they they've basically influenced how loweys are designed by by incrementally increasing standards for operating in london and you know the direct vision standard which brings the driver closer to the front of the vehicle and has windows the full way down um was a major result of that work from from tfl um but that's probably where we're going to see you know in vehicle standards vehicle standards have a major major impact on ksis and the impact between um vulnerable road users and heavy goods vehicles would sit in that space consolidation is i mean council young mentioned it is a really interesting area as well we've had successive mayors talk about doing more freight by river um more freight by rail it's something that we would absolutely support um but by its very nature most freight is going into or through the borough we don't have a lot of freight journeys originating in hackney so the amount of influence that we have that's very much in this regional london-wide category which is probably why the freight plan you know was a difficult thing to develop because so many of the actions that you want to see don't don't sit with us to lead on so it is about finding in the next strategy finding what are the levers that we do have to influence some of those ideas um and then really trying to build on the levers that we do have which is more about the last mile so you'll really trying to push some of those freight companies those delivery companies to be um as low impact as they can and they're delivering into hackney um and then we we have a bigger piece of work that strategic piece of work to work with this other agencies around looking at traffic that's going through so it's it's got one but it's something that's definitely i think should be a priority i would suspect would be a priority in the strategy okay council young do you want to make the last yeah i just want to add something on um you know what what are we doing to broaden out um the range of people cycling i think it's a really important area and two two sort of smallish things and i went to the zero emissions network event last week it was incredible to see the variety of different organizations who are now starting to use cargo bikes including the clapton park management organization who've given up their van and are using a cargo bike and they are quite they're they're you know ethnically mixed group running an an estate so as people start to see people who look like them doing that thing people start to move on and do it and i know from you know in my own adult life um i didn't know anybody when my children were small who didn't um you know who chose to use by i knew one family chose to use bikes entirely and not cars and now we see people all the time doing that so you know there is a trend and that trend is changing and there are two other things that we're doing at the moment one is every school now every child has access to free cycle training at school so that's a big change um and we are seeing some schools developing bike buses which are much broader than it's not just the kids where the families already cycle it's kids who are being loaned a bike for a year at school which they can use to ride in a lead ride you know with with teachers from the school so that's broadening that opportunity out beyond the kids where their family would confidently take them on a bike so that's really important and the other thing is that lime i think are funding adult cycle lessons um and one of the comments made about lime bike riders is often they don't look like very confident cyclists so lime are funding adult um cycling lessons and i think that's also a way of kind of people who didn't necessarily learn to ride a bike as children um can then access free cycle lessons so we are we're sort of you know getting a little bit into um the zone of of uh broadening out cycling for people but obviously we we don't have a kind of immediate solution thank you i am going to draw this icon to a close now um so i'd just like to thank officers and um counts counts young for attending i know you did have a a word there counseling did you want to sum up at all or um i mean we've covered an off an awful lot tonight so okay um and obviously perhaps we can help as well by thinking about how we can reach out to our communities is obviously the possibility of having um transport strategy as award um you know the basis of award for a meeting but perhaps we can think of some other groups in our awards too and we look forward to inviting you back when you're at the draft um strategy stage thank you very much we haven't quite finished yet but you please leave uh accordingly we're only going to be a couple of minutes might have finished by the time okay so item five minutes of previous meeting oh carrie sir martins did you want to come in yeah okay just to say in the minutes for the previous meeting my attendance wasn't noted i noticed that um can we put were you in a person i was in person yeah she was in person yeah in february in um february going we're going back a couple of months to the um employment outcomes yeah i was in i was definitely in person yeah okay i'll amend that okay aside from that correction can we agree the minutes lovely and we should have the march um minutes for the first meeting of the municipal year moving on to item six the skills economy and growth scrutiny commission work program we have progressed as mentioned the last meeting with um talking to our corporate assets um if you remember that was one of the recommendations from the peer review that we maximize max maximize our corporate assets um much more effectively than we are doing currently so they will probably be coming in june but we haven't agreed um agreed that yet um it is going to be next year is going to be the last year of this administration so i think some of our focus of course has got to be on ensuring that the promises made to residents in 22 um are delivered and any areas as part of our commission but also for us to adapt to any emerging demands um and how we're aligned with you know london and national policy which is um changing on under a change of government so have a think about any particular areas that you'd like to cover and please email tracy and myself in the meantime if you haven't got those up there focus now okay all right anybody got any suggestions questions okay um business we i haven't had any notification so i think i can say the meeting is finished thank you and well if you could turn off the streaming