Transcript
Agenda Item 3. Minutes of the previous meeting, which, just for members, if the committee could agree the minutes of the audit committee, which was held, gosh, on 14th of January, as an accurate record of the proceedings.
Okay, great, thank you. So that brings us on to Agenda Item 4, and we have Suresh Patel from Farvis Mazars,
who's going to give us on the Auditor's Annual Report for 2023-2024. And I don't know if anybody at the Offices, but I think it's just yourself, isn't it, for this item?
But great, thank you. I'm just going to remind members that we have got quite a tight agenda, so obviously only feel that you need to ask something if it's absolutely necessary, but I'll let you take the floor. Thank you so much, Suresh.
Thank you, Chair. Good evening, members of the committee. I'm also joined on the screen by my colleague, Mark Durkham. He's the partner in charge of the Pension Fund audit.
The suite of papers you have in front of you essentially report the conclusion of the audit of your 23-24 accounts for both the Council and the Pension Fund.
Existing members will recall we've reported on progress and then completion of that audit over the last sort of 12 to 18 months.
So these reports essentially confirm that we did indeed issue an unqualified opinion on both the Council and Pension Fund accounts on the 25th of February, which was three days before the strategy deadline that the government had brought in in respect of the backlog in audit work across the country.
I think the public officers also does highlight the fact that you were only one of 10 London borough councils to receive an unqualified audit opinion.
Sixteen, so half of the London boroughs received disclaimed audit opinions and actually six didn't even receive any form of opinion by the 28th of February for various reasons.
So I think I've said before at this committee that that's testament to the quality and capability of the finance function, but also the excellent working relationship that we've developed with the team over the last three or four years.
So I just want to say thanks again to the finance team for enabling us to completely audit on time.
So two other things I just wanted to highlight because this obviously reports matters that you we've reported to you previously just brings it all together in one suite of reports.
So firstly, on value for money, you'll see that we didn't identify any significant weaknesses.
That's the language that we use in respect of the national audit office guidance that we have to follow.
I think that's probably the third or fourth successive year that there's been no significant weaknesses for Hackney.
What I would say though on financial sustainability, we do include in our commentary a few comments about the increasingly challenging position that the council faces in respect of its finances.
And you'll be, and you'll be, you're not surprised to know that the majority of London Borough Council do have financial sustainability issues and auditors are reporting matters on value for money around that.
So again, at the moment, you're kind of okay, but I'm sure the new director of finance will, we'll talk about this after this, at least another item.
It's getting increasingly more difficult as you move forward in terms of the level of reserves that you, you have to draw down on.
And then finally, in the, in the auditor's report, we do refer to two objections that we received on the accounts for 2324.
You'll probably recall from previous objections that we received, these can often be quite complicated and take, unfortunately, a bit longer than we all anticipate to conclude on.
So both are currently in train in terms of our considerations of those objections, but we do hope to, to reach a view on those shortly and then go through the final process with the relevant local government electors.
I'm conscious that the new independent members obviously might not know the background of both the status of the audit, but also the objections.
So I'm happy to take any specific questions either here or, or, or outside the meeting, if that would be easier chair.
But that's what I was going to say by way of introduction to those papers.
Great. Thank you. And obviously it's a massive achievement.
And do you, I was just going to think in terms of time, would yourself, Anthony and Marion, did you want to ask anything particularly around, around this?
Would that be okay? Just. Yeah. Have you finished? Have you finished? Yeah. Anthony. Yeah.
No, not on, not on that specific matter, but on something else on the report. Yeah. Yeah.
Do you want me to go ahead? Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. On page 32, where it talks about a deficiency in the valuation of the assets,
where only 20% of the assets are valued per year and 80% are therefore not using appropriate data to revalue.
So I just wondered if that had any impact on, uh, the quality there for the valuation of those assets,
if that would impact on the council's ability in relation to funding and loans.
I was struggling to hear all, all the questions. I'm afraid. Um, sorry.
It's all right. Yeah. Acoustics in this room. It's fine. Uh, sorry. So on page 32, um,
there is an internal control observation in relation to the valuation of the assets.
And only 20% are valued per year, 80% are done on, uh, an index value, value basis, but it's not appropriate.
So I just wondered if that had any impact at all on the council's ability to borrow it.
Those assets are used either as collateral or as if any of the borrowings, the council done is considered on the quality of the assets.
Um, officers might want to come in, but the, the valuation that we've reported, uh,
doesn't have any impact on the borrowing that the council might undertake.
It's purely to do with the valuation for the annual accounts.
Sorry, just on that, but that, but that's on the balance sheet, right?
So on the balance sheet value of the assets that the council has.
So any borrowings that council may have may be based on the quality of assets collateral. No.
I mean, I think the, the, the officers could probably answer that.
That, that, I mean, is that something that's going to be addressed later on in the agenda, maybe around the value of assets or do you want to answer it now?
Thank you.
Thank you. Yeah. Um, a council borrowing is not directly linked to assets.
So we borrow on a pool basis to finance our capital expenditure.
We are, uh, uh, our borrowing is relatively low compared to other London borrowers.
You will see it in our cost of borrowing on that, but we don't actually take out a mortgage to buy a property.
It's consolidated and it's not attached to individual assets, but our borrowing is significantly less than our, the assets, the value of the assets we held.
So questions are these directly around the actual process of getting our audits done?
Did you want to ask councillor Garber or councillor Lucas or did Maureen want to say anything?
Just mindful of time. Yeah.
I was just going to ask a quick one.
So on, um, your report page 30, just the value of the uncorrected misstatement, misstatement.
I just wondered if you could speak to that value and if that's similar to past years, is that a value that we were expecting that like 5.8 million, if I'm reading this right.
Um, and yeah, I was concerned about whether there was any impact of residents of the miscalculation by the housing benefits assessor.
Those are just my two questions. Thank you.
I don't think that's going to be part of, uh, Suresh's response, but we can come to that later in the agenda.
If you could answer that question around that.
Thank you. So on, um, on page 30, it's important to clarify, we do say in the detail that those errors are extrapolated errors.
So where we identify, uh, an error in a sample of, of items that we've tested.
And then we extrapolate that, that, that basis of error across the full population.
So they're not actual errors per se.
They're an indication that there could be those misstatement, which is why management haven't made the adjustments.
Um, I don't think they're out of filter with previous years, but they don't suggest any underlying weakness in any arrangements that the council has.
Very quickly, councillor Lucas.
Thank you chair.
I just had a quick question.
Page 16, um, paragraph 5.4.
You mentioned something in relation to the national audit office and how it's yet to provide confirmation on the approach to the selected sampling components.
And they wouldn't be able to issue a certificate until that is, is taking place.
Right.
So do you have a sense of when that will happen?
And does that affect the wider audit process for these, for this year's council?
Thank you.
So unfortunately we're still waiting for the national office to make that determination.
Um, it doesn't make any, anything it prevents us doing is certifying completion of the audit, but we also need to complete a consideration of the two objections to do that as well.
So, um, yeah, both of those need to be resolved.
Right.
Okay.
So the actions that we have, um, is as a committee, we just have to recommend, um, to note the contents of what we've had this evening and the recommendations in the auditor's annual report.
Can you agree?
Okay.
Noted.
Great.
Thank you very much.
Um, so now we're going to move on to, um, uh, Naeem and we're going to bring together the finance update, the treasurer management update.
And we've already did a deep dive into the cost of capital and borrowing, which will be pertinent.
Um, and the capital monitoring report as well.
So I'm just going to, uh, introduce as I have Naeem, of course, very welcome to the committee, the group director for finance and resources.
You're going to provide us with a presentation, which will, um, cover all of the agenda items that I've just talked about, um, and the capital borrowing report, um, from agenda item 10.
And we are, as a committee, just being asked to note the update.
Uh, so thank you, Naeem.
Thank you.
Thank you to everyone.
And thank you chair for the, for the warm welcome and, uh, nice to meet, uh, committee members today.
Uh, it's great to be here.
Great to be back in Hackney.
Uh, some of you will know this.
I previously worked in, in Hackney as director of finance and went for the past few years to Ernest & Young, um, where I was leading their national approach to financial resilience, which was entailing going around and dealing with financial resilience across a number of local authorities.
So hopefully that will put me in good stead for the challenges, uh, that Suresh alluded to that will certainly lie ahead for us today.
Um, as, as the chair alluded to, we've got various points that we're going to try and cover off today.
So I'm going to speak to the finance update.
Um, we've got a treasury management update as well for you and, uh, uh, a bit of an overview around what we've done around the capital on borrowing deep dive and the capital program, which Deidre will touch on, on those, um, subsequent elements.
Um, we will share these slides after this meeting as well, just to give you a bit of an overview.
Um, so what I'm going to give you a quick update on today is the general fund position for 2425.
So this is as at January and this went to, um, um, cabinet in, in March.
Um, so our overall position at the moment across the general fund is an overspend of, uh, just shy of 37 million pounds.
Deidre, if you flick on once more, we, we talk about some of the mitigations around this, and I think it's, uh, particularly useful for, uh, uh, new members of the committee to see this.
So, um, I'll, I'll briefly just, just talk through some of these.
So some of the things that we've done, um, to mitigate the, the, the, the gross overspend in this space, we've, um, paused budgeted revenue contributions to financing the capital program.
So this is essentially a change of how we fund the capital program.
So that's to the tune of 4.7 million pounds.
We've, um, revised the amount that we've set aside to repay borrowing.
So that's the minimum revenue provision for the chain of 1.7 million pounds.
This is, as it says on the slides, largely because we've reprofiled some of the delivery of some of the schemes, uh, in the capital program.
Um, we've recognized a surplus in the localized business rates pool of 2.6 million, and we've made some revisions to interest income of 2.5 million, which I'd probably say is a prudent estimate based on year to date and our estimated cash flows.
Um, for those of you well verb in local government, you'll understand that, uh, demand led services continue to have a real impact on our overall forecasting position.
And that's very much illustrated through this slide.
So you'll see children's and education is forecasting an overspend of 9.3 million.
That's primarily driven by corporate parenting, family intervention, support services, and disabled children's services.
Um, adults health and integration has an overspend just shy of 20 million pounds.
That's largely driven by care support commissioning, which is essentially packages of care that we're providing to service users.
Um, and then climate homes and economy has an overspend of, uh, 21 million.
And this was probably an area of renewed financial challenges this, this past year, where we've seen an increased, um, prevalence in homelessness prevention costs associated with that.
Um, probably say, uh, finance and corporate resources has got a small underspend and chief execs is pretty much on balance.
Um, I suppose Suresh alluded to it in, in his, um, audit overview, the major challenge around financial sustainability is the one facing local authorities up and down the country and, and, and similar to the current position in Hackney.
We've got a significant overspend and that overspend has to be funded, um, on a non-recurrent basis by reserves.
So it's not a sustainable position in, in the medium term.
And we're working, um, collectively with, with officers to try and bring forward proposals to, to mitigate the budget gaps and understand what cost reduction initiatives we can implement in services to try and bring down, um, the level of cost pressures that we're seeing in services.
And it says, it says there in the slides in simple terms, if we were to do nothing can continue to overspend at the current rate, our reserves would be exhausted in two to three years.
I think it's important to note demand will continue to go up in that period.
And actually we, we, we could be looking at a, a shorter timeframe and that will present increased challenges for us as an organization.
Very much my role as section 151 officer is to deliver a balanced budget and really encourage and drive out efficiencies and, and, and think about supporting the organization to make really challenging decisions in this space to almost make sure that we, we retain within our budget envelope.
Um, the latest reserves position is shown on the next slide and includes the impact of school closures.
So that, that's something that needs to be considered.
Um, you'll see here the overall general fund balance as at the 31st of March is 154 million.
I suppose that doesn't take into account the, the 37 million pounds that we'll need to, uh, manage the, the budget this year.
The general fund balance is probably our last call of call and something that we try and look to protect.
But as we talked about schools balances and we're seeing nationally falling roles, essentially what falling roles means is when you don't have 30 children in a class, we're not funded to that degree.
And therefore schools are building up deficits, which we're having to support them through those schools balances.
So there's various elements in there that are included around other usable reserves, but I'd probably like to emphasize, uh, to the chair and the committee that using reserves is not a sustainable position.
And actually we really need to get into, uh, the challenges around how we deliver a sustainable resilient budget over that medium term financial plan.
It's, it's, it's, it will involve making some, um, really difficult decisions, but I think that's essentially where we need to, we need to go as an organization.
Um, so this slide just touches on, um, what we've done in, uh, 24, 25.
So we've put, and we continue to put, um, growth into the budget.
Um, and then, and we were thankful to see an increase of 8 million pound in social care grants.
But I suppose what we've demonstrated through, uh, the forecast is cost pressures are fast outstripping allocated growth and additional grant funds.
So in an ideal world, I suppose, additional grant funding would be seen as a surplus.
What we're seeing is the run rate of cost pressures within services, increasing our rate that just isn't sustainable.
Um, so there's various spending, uh, reduction initiatives that are already underway.
We're, we're closely reviewing all agency assignments.
We're, we've undertaken a review of non-essential spend and we've got various recruitment controls.
Um, and we recently set up a monthly budget recovery board to, I suppose, forensically challenge services around what they're doing in year to, uh, manage overspends.
And how we collectively, um, as an organization, develop proposals to support the ongoing financial sustainability, uh, for the organization.
Um, so that's, um, that's been set up and that was set up by, by, by Jackie before, uh, before I joined.
And that's something that we're going to be monitoring closely, uh, as a group to work through some of the specific challenges that services are facing and really understand what they're doing within that space.
Um, so this illustrates some of the measures that have been put in place to mitigate the overspend.
Um, so you'll see here the forecast for non-essential spend savings across the general fund, um, which has increased actually from by 175 K from, uh, the December position.
And the HRA is, is delivering, uh, 641 K. So what we're really trying to do is almost embed a culture of challenge and trying to review budgets and, um, uh, and spend, um, controls across the, across the organization to see where we can, we, we can deliver savings.
And actually you can see from the slide illustrated that that that's had quite significant, um, and positive impact.
And, and I think this will be a proposal that we'll look to continue into 25, 26, given, uh, the successful nature of it to date.
Um, this illustrates, uh, this slide illustrates the impact of, um, agency spend.
You'll, you'll see there that, uh, as a general fund, we spend 45 million pounds on, on agency spend, which headline is, is, is a large number.
And I suppose what we're trying to do as an organization is really review, um, a lot of the controls in, in some of those instances, there'll be real key reasons driving the need for agency staff.
So there might be instances where we've got non-recurrent grant funding and agency staff are required because we couldn't permanently recruit and there'll be various other initiatives.
So what I'm keen to do and keen to present back to audit committee and future meetings is a real breakdown of, of what's driving that number.
And I suppose we're going to be looking forensically as a corporate leadership team about the controls that are in place and, and, uh, key performance indicators and management actions that, uh, budget holders have to, to really drive down, um, drive down that number as much as we, as we possibly can.
But there, there'll be real kind of key reasons.
And I suppose what this slide does is illustrate, um, uh, the changes month to month, um, across the different directions.
So you'll see there, um, adult self and integration agencies spend has increased and the primary drive are being agency staff backfilling statutory permanent posts.
Um, and I suppose it is good to, a good, a good example to illustrate the importance of that.
And actually where we've got statutory roles, if somebody was to go off sick, um, you know, we have to have a core cohort of staff.
And I suppose what I'd want to really do going forward is almost break down that 45 million to give the committee more oversight of, of what's driving the number in, in, in more specific detail if we can.
Yeah.
I'll, I'll hand over now to Deidre who will touch on the HRA.
Okay.
Yeah.
Um, so the housing revenue account is forecasting a break even position as it always does.
However, there is a forecast overspend and operational expenditure of 14.8 million.
Um, like the, um, like for the general fund, we are, we are employing cost mitigations to keep that, that forecast down and get us back to a break even position.
Um, we had a repairs and maintenance contingency of 3.4 million, 3.3 million that we've, we've released.
We have reduced the revenue contribution to capital, uh, by 2.4 million.
And the budgeted contribution to reserves has, has, is not now going to be made in 24, 25.
We wanted to get up our reserves, our general reserve up to 10% of turnover.
Um, and that requires a, a budgeted contribution of 2 million, but we're not now not able to do that because of the overspend we're seeing.
Um, and we're also drawing down from the resilience reserve, 4 million pounds to make up, to get, to get the HRA back into balance.
So, um, the drivers of the overspend really is in, in repairs.
It's the, the volume and, um, the cost of those repairs.
So, the direct labor organization at the moment is forecasting 3.2 million overspend.
And that is a result of increased salary costs as we're trying to respond to, uh, to employ additional operative operatives to respond to the complexity of legal disrepair cases, voids and revenue repair works.
There's legal disrepair remains a significant issue.
There is a 5.2 million overspend in legal disrepair.
And we are overspending in the alternative dispute resolution, which is not having the impact we expected.
However, there will be an impact in future years as we expect, um, costs to reduce over time.
Building maintenance services, we're forecasting a 2.4 million overspend.
And again, that's additional agency staff and building safety officers.
And also there's a legal claim that need to be settled.
Um, again, the additional agency staff is, is about responding to resident safety needs.
So it's essential that we have that, that in place.
Um, resident safety, we've got 1, 1 million overspend, increased security on a number of residential blocks, um, where we've got waking watches in place because of issues in those blocks.
And, um, in, uh, regeneration, economy and housing delivery, that, that report into the HRA as well.
There is a half million overspend due in the main to the impact of the pay award and to one off redundancy costs.
So that's the HRA.
Um, happy to take questions at that point or should I just carry on?
So people want to just go to the treasury bit and then we'll just go straight to the main course afterwards.
I think if you want, if you're happy to carry on to it, because obviously all this is related, isn't it?
In terms of cash flow.
So now I'll go on to item six and just, this is, uh, the treasury management update for the quarter, the quarter four update.
So these are headline figures for us at the end of March.
So hot off the press.
So our debt portfolio, our long-term borrowing at the moment sits at, uh, well, our long-term liabilities at 166 million.
Um, that's, uh, 160 million long-term borrowing and, and other long-term liabilities just over six.
Um, our, um, our borrowing increased by 34 million in the quarter.
This was expected as we have, um, we are, our reserves are dwindling as we deliver on projects for which the reserves are set aside for.
We're seeing an overspend and we're delivering on our capital program and those funded by revenue reserve.
We use our balances first.
Borrowing is always the last resort.
So our borrowing is increasing now.
And it should be noted that all of the external borrowing fits within the housing revenue account.
So that's the take on borrowing.
When we had the self-finance settlement in 2012 and the, um, and the, obviously the delivery of the housing regime schemes.
And they will be repaid as, uh, capital receipts come in.
Um, our investment portfolio at the moment stands at 45 million, just under 46 million.
Um, our average rate of interest, whether we're receiving is 4.5%.
Um, just to just let you know, the average rate of borrowing is 3.1%, but we have been borrowing extremely low.
But as we borrow now, the rates are higher.
So that's the average rate of borrowing is drifting up now.
Um, so yeah, so, uh, I've, I've, I've, I've mentioned a couple of these things.
Um, so when we do take out external borrowing, just want to, to, to let, uh, members know that.
We evaluate and pursue lower cost alternative borrowing solutions.
And literally we make the decision on the day.
So we watch the rates.
If we know we've got to borrow and predict, I don't know if he's on the call here.
He makes, he, he makes a recommendation and, um, yeah.
And he recommends the, or the optimum borrowing opportunities.
Um, so investments, again, security of capital is our main investment objective.
As you know, you've, um, you approved the treasury management strategy at your last committee.
And, um, yeah, so we, we, we invest, we lend, we, we invest in that basis.
And we just want to know that we are in compliance with all of our prudential indicators that set out in the treasury management strategy.
And there's just a couple of slides there that could show you what our investment portfolio looks like and the interest received.
I suppose the key point is it just showing our, the 2425 is in the dark green, light green is, uh, uh, last year.
And you can see that the, uh, reduction in balances that we hold is having a significant income, a significant impact on the, the, on the, uh, in the interest we receive.
And obviously the cash balances we hold.
Okay.
Okay.
Um, right.
Uh, as we've set out to, we've, we've undertaken new long-term borrowing in quarter four,
220 million out loans taken out from the PWLB.
We've taken advantage of the HRA lower rate, 40 base, it's 40 basis points, 0.4%.
So below PWLB certainty rates, we've got a uptick in investment income, a one-off gain, but with the reduction of our cash balances, um, we've got a reduction in interest and overall, uh, we don't budget for interest because historically up to the last couple of years, it's been extremely low.
The rates have been low and we tend to use our cash balances rather than borrow to finance programs, but obviously that's changing now.
Um, just setting out the bank rates being held at 4.5 and they're meeting in, in 8th of May.
There, there may be a reduction coming.
So, um, so our treasury advisors were expecting rate cuts, but we haven't seen that yet.
Probably equal to one million five, six.
Okay.
So straight onto deep dive.
Okay.
So, um, as you know, the, um, uh, audit committee does deep dive.
Deep dive into certain areas.
And one of the deep dives we've done this year was on the cost of capital borrowing.
And I just want to apologize for the lateness of this report coming out.
So, um, so the objective of the review set out on this slide and the scope of work is set out as well.
Um, so the first thing we looked at is the framework and governance capital borrowing.
Um, so the council approved this capital strategy.
Um, that set out there, what we do, the treasury management strategy, the allocation of, of resources for the capital program.
And we approved the MRP statement.
Cabinet approved all proposals for capital spending for acceptance into the capital program.
Of a de minimis level, a de minimis level.
And approves variations to capital program.
And they monitor capital budgets throughout the year.
And audit committee maintains that overview on the whole of the council's investment and borrowing arrangements by taking,
by approving the annual treasury management strategy and, and, and receiving those treasury management updates.
Uh, the capital framework for capital borrowing is set out here in graphical form.
But so cabinet has the, the overview of our capital and borrowing, our capital arrangements.
And all our capital program gets, uh, goes through a stage of, um, a pipeline through our capital,
capital strategy and asset management group through the capital asset steering board chaired by the mayor and into cabinet as well.
So we do have a strong governance arrangements around that.
Um, just a couple of, uh, slides from the presentation we go in October.
As you can see, as at the end, as at December, 2024,
was really quite low down in the external borrowing levels across London.
So we, we do tend to make use of our cash balances, um, when we, when we need to,
when we borrow, when we need to cash flow our activities.
As we've said, that is going to change and our minimum revenue provision charges across London.
Again, our MRP charges are relatively low because we use reserves to fund our capital expenditure and make revenue.
DJ, is there any more slides? I'm just mindful of having some time afterwards.
Um, okay. So I think what I'll do is I'll flick through these slides really quickly.
I suppose, um, just, just about the 10 year capital outlook,
which demonstrates that we need to increase the borrowing.
I'll go straight to the conclusions really.
So we've got a well established capital bid and approval process, um, for council's capital.
We have very low borrowings, but that's changing.
Governance arrangements in place are working well.
Our plans for capital investment will be relying on borrowing.
Um, and we just need to keep an eye on that.
Um, and, and we do need to keep an eye on our capital delivery
because we need to pay closer attention to our cash flows.
So I'll end it there.
Thank you.
Thank you.
There's actually quite a lot.
Have we got another little bit here as well?
Yeah. Yeah.
So on the capital program in item 10, the capital program monitoring port is attached,
um, is attached and basically our quarter three forecast,
because we're in the middle of close down at the moment,
was, uh, 77 million pounds below the revised budget.
And the main reason for those variances are, um, uh, economic factors and, um,
and delivery.
So if, if we've got an unviable scheme, we will work to get the best value for money
to make sure we can keep it within the cash envelope as, uh, as much as possible.
And, um, so there's some, some, some, some major variances.
They're all highlighted there and they're in the report.
Apologies for taking too long.
Um, no, I, I, I, I, not at all did.
And thank you, uh, to Naeem as well.
And also, um, to Miz and Pradeep who contributed to these reports.
I mean, I think for me, um, as chair of audit, I think I was very, uh, we've used our independence
as a committee to raise our grave concerns around the risks of borrowing that we did.
Uh, risks of using reserves to sit, to set this budget that we just did.
And I think we're, we are obviously seeing what you presented today.
Um, we're looking at something that's really quite difficult.
I mean, we're essentially using reserves just to keep the show on the road at the moment.
Aren't we?
Um, what I would like to ask, um, if I may, before I bring in other members, is what would
be useful is you've obviously set out where we are in terms of the finances, but we just
have to, there's obviously a need for the council to fundamentally change the way that
it's doing things.
That would, that would be what would be coming to me is that we, we have a narrative that we
have this increased in demand.
Um, that isn't the fault of our vulnerable people because many of these people are extremely
vulnerable.
So we mustn't demonize them, but also, um, we have had a, um, initial, uh, transformation
deep dive, which will hopefully be reported on in the next audit committee.
But I just wondered whether or not you were able to give something, uh, particularly for
our new independent members and for others, if there is opportunity to update on, uh, what
other, uh, undertakings the council's doing.
So I understand that we've got some external support.
Haven't we to come in to have to look at how we're, we're starting to look at transformation.
Naeem, I don't know if you wanted to come in on that.
Yeah, sure.
I'm happy to.
Um, yeah.
Um, we've commissioned inner circle, uh, consulting to come in and do a review of our target
operating model.
So, um, that will be focused on, on, on various components.
Um, the way that we operate, the spans, the layers, the tiers of control that we've got
across the organization.
And we'll be, we'll be kicking off a similar exercise around prevention and demand management.
And I suppose like to give the committee and the chair assurance that through the work that
we're doing around the medium term financial plan, we, the 51 million that we've identified
as a gap over that three year period includes, um, almost payback of, of the reserves that
we've had to use to balance the budget.
Um, so we're working tirelessly in the background to almost get to a balanced position.
But I think as the chair alluded to, we, we've got difficult decisions ahead.
We, we, we need to recognize the, the challenges of supporting a vulnerable community, um, and,
and how we're able to do that safely while, while, whilst recognizing the efficiencies need
to be delivered from the system.
So, uh, collectively as a council, we really need to think about a one council approach and
and breaking down some of those silos and getting it right first time, which, um, I've very
much been tasked with.
And I've seen that appetite from the corporate leadership team to want to do things differently
and almost come up with a model that's financially sustainable and resilient for the organization
for, for years to come.
Um, just before I bring members in, one thing I would like noted is that I do think there
needs to be an urgent, urgent workforce transformation plan.
I don't see a workforce transformation plan.
I don't see anything coming through that is actually going to be tackling this level of
agency spend.
Um, members may not realize that also the impact of having a sort of continued use of temporary
staffing as well is that it, it can impact on the quality as well in terms of the experience
of residents.
If you're having one social worker and then another social worker or what have you.
So I think the impact of reducing agency spend and investing and making sure we have a more
robust sort of, um, strategy essentially to, to, to make sure we've got more permanent staff
working within Hackney.
Um, but again, I think I absolutely welcome.
And I, I am very pleased as chair of audience to see some of the sort of initial stuff that
you've done.
Um, Naeem in terms of getting a grip on that and making sure that we get a proper, uh, process
that's across all areas, um, of the council.
Um, because this, yeah, we're clearly on a, we clearly need to have some sort of, um, discipline
here to make sure that we're not, um, we're not going to run away with everything, but
also, you know, we're going to hear from our colleagues and adults and children later around
the risk register, because for me, it's always got to be about how we're meeting those statutory
requirements of us as a council.
And I guess, anyway, I'm going to hand over to my members cause I can see that they're
probably wanting to or something already just don't completely stand into silence.
Uh, Councillor Lucas.
Yeah.
Thank you, chair.
And, um, just to completely echo everything that you said, really, it's really, it's been,
um, impressive to see the impact you've had.
And I really welcome what you said in your remarks about looking under the bonnet on agency
spend.
And I think that's really important and we should take that approach, I think, across different
directorates and really see what's driving the costs.
I think I just had a broader question really, and it sort of relates to this quite tangentially
around some of the global volatility that we're seeing at the moment in the markets,
et cetera.
And I noticed the newspapers are reporting today that the tariffs, et cetera, are probably
looking to prompt, uh, cutting interest rates because inflation has been quite sticky.
And the sort of, I guess my question is, uh, what impact if any, does that have on, uh, the
work we're doing to sort of, um, you know, model the council's financial position?
How does it impact your job in doing that?
And, um, does it make it harder in a sense to see what's coming down the track?
Because things are changing quite rapidly and, um, we're almost approaching a new world,
I guess.
And I wonder how that filtered through to sort of day to day, if at all.
Thanks.
Yeah, thank you for the question.
Um, yeah, I, I would say yes, very much.
So, uh, I, I think we're, we're considering the impacts from a treasury management perspective,
and in different parts of the council, like pensions as well, and, and how, how we invest,
um, um, members, uh, contributions to make sure that they're sustainable.
I suppose in terms of the medium term financial plan, um, many moons ago when I joined local
government, it used to be an annual exercise and economies were quite stable.
It almost feels like it's, it's a constant period of refreshing and actually, um, through
the medium term financial plan, we're always horizon scanning around the wider implications,
not just from a UK perspective, but the global implications of, of what's happening and actually
what that means for our budgets locally.
So I, I'd say it's very much at the forefront of our, um, medium term financial planning
and our thinking as an organisation.
I think we have to be mindful about, um, economic shocks and actually the global implications
of them and actually what that means for a local level, um, for Hackney and its residents
and it's something that we're very attuned to.
On that note, there has actually been some breaking news and markets.
Um, so a very pertinent question, Councillor Lucas.
Can I just ask a quick question on the agency staff and if it includes all on costs?
I know after 12 weeks of being temporary, a person's, I was just looking up the kind of
lines, but they get automatic pension enrolment, don't they?
And they offer, if they've been a temporary member of staff.
So does that cost include all of those?
Because it would just be, yeah, interesting to see how we're thinking about people becoming
permanent in the roles that they've got as temporary members of staff.
Um, yeah.
And then my other quick question was just, um, Deirdre, we were describing a quite bleak situation
with the HRA and the things that we've had to do this time to balance it and presumably
we won't have those available to us next year.
They're like one off things that we've done this time.
Yeah.
So on, on the agency staff, the agency staff forecasting includes all costs of employing
those agency staff.
Um, where as far as possible, we try to maintain the cost of the agency worker within the budget
envelope for that post.
So an awful lot of that spend that you see is contained within existing budgets.
Occasionally when there's more work needed or there's, there's a response.
So for example, if we quoted that in the DLO, um, that is leading to an overspend because
we need to do more because we're responding to demand for repairs.
But for the most part, um, we try to contain the cost of the agency staff within the cash envelope.
So for example, where we have to have those statutory people responding.
So in our supported living schemes or in, in a refuse collection, the cost of an agency
worker is comparable with the cost of a, um, the total cost of a, um, a permanent employee.
Obviously there are areas where that isn't the case, particularly in those difficult recruit
areas.
In terms of the HRA, um, the HRA pressures, um, that there, we do need to take some action
and look at how we're spending the repairs, um, the repairs, um, the volume of repairs that
we're doing.
Are we doing the right things properly?
It is not helped because we haven't got those main, uh, repairs and maintenance contracts.
So you can't go, we, we haven't got the ability to go in and, and fix an issue in a whole block,
for example, at the moment, because we haven't got those main contract contracts in place.
Um, yes, the, the funding that we've used, if it's reserve based, um, it's one off.
Um, and, uh, it does create a problem.
Then we, we may, we've got a level of, we're going to have a level of earmark reserve left,
and we also have our general reserve.
But if the spend increases the way it's increasing, that then we are in, in, in a difficult position.
And it should be noted that HRA, the HRA is all funded from rents and leasehold charges.
I think rents went up by CPI plus one.
Um, but, uh, but, uh, it's not keeping pace with re with the inflation, particularly in the repair space.
So I, I do know that we, we, we are doing some detailed, uh, financial improvement work in this space.
And there may be some hard decisions, um, to be made, but we're working closely with Ricardo and Stephen on that.
And Naeem's, uh, going to be chairing an, a financial improvement board to look at this as well.
Yeah.
Yeah, of course, Naeem.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, thank you for that, Deidre.
And I think Deidre alluded to, uh, sometimes it's very easy just to focus on, uh,
specific components of the budget and we can get, um, to focus on the general fund or the HRA and the DSG.
I suppose we've renewed focus.
I want to focus on all the different components.
So as Deidre alluded to, we're going to have a HRA finance improvement board, uh, alongside all the work that we're doing around the medium term financial plan.
We're not just looking at general fund, but we're looking at those other components.
So HRA and DSG to understand what financial sustainability looks like for us as an organization.
And it's all of those, those different components working as effectively as they can be.
But as, yeah, as Deidre suggested, we're going to have a, a newly formed finance improvement board, um, to tackle some of the specific issues, um, in the HRA.
And, and that, that seems to be welcomed by services.
So it's, it's good to hear that.
Sorry, I think we're going to have to, we've just gone over a little bit on this, but obviously it's, it's, it's, it's obviously been very impactful what you've said to us this evening.
Um, I think we would all agree as committee members that we've welcomed this level of honesty and transparency in those reports in terms of what we've seen.
Um, and like you said, there's, there's only so much you can do in terms of the solution, because obviously that that's devolved into, into sort of other parts of the council.
Um, so what I would like to do now is just ask, um, just formally ask the committee to, to note the updates we've had in terms of the recommendations in the treasury management update, and then obviously to note the content of the deep dive.
And just to check Deidre, you will be able to distribute those slides around to everybody, won't you, as well.
Um, uh, so great. Thank you very much.
Um, on that note, we're now going to move on to, uh, the agenda items, which are to do with the risk registers for two of the, sort of, you know, one of the, the two areas of the council that obviously are, um, due to the nature of the statutory duties, obviously have a, a, a, a huge demand, but also have a huge risk as well.
So I understand, um, that we have apologies today from Jackie Burke.
Um, but we have in her, um, we have in her absence, um, uh, Diane, Diane Benjamin, sorry Diane, our director of social power, who's, who's here to, to go through the risk register.
What I will say is that members are expecting that you've obviously looked at this as well, so that it will reduce the time so that Diane's able to just give an exception report on what she thinks are the main areas of concern.
So thank you, Diane.
Thank you chair.
So I'll just go through the summary of the risk register and to note no specific recommendations, um, no legal implications, et cetera, but in terms of the review and just some of the key updates I wanted to share with the committee today.
So in terms of children and education, we continue managing partnerships with agencies, um, ensuring the wellbeing of children.
This speaks to the need for shared objectives, consistent centering child wellbeing in practice across our, both our agencies.
Adding in the context of further publication of the local child safeguarding practice review related to tell cue.
Mitigations focus on communication partnership and the safeguarding first approach.
So in terms of children's social care, no overall change to the profile of most risks since last year's annual audit committee.
New risks to note changes to the statutory requirements risk associating with the working together 2023 in terms of the national children's social care framework, which is the social care reforms.
Um, capacity to lead implementation, ensuring appropriate interpretation and therefore services change planning to implement effectively.
Ongoing risks are around, uh, delays in responding to SARS.
In some cases, as a result of remaining impact of the cyber attack ongoing work with the information government services deliver an improvement through the ongoing risk.
Ongoing risk and that's been monitored really closely.
Um, reduction in residential placements and associated, but budget pressures impact to service demand exceeding available resources influenced by external factors such as cost of living.
cost of living increased call on resources in respect of our no no recourse to public funds
families and children and young people suffering significant harm injury or death in terms of
education the ongoing risks are hackney has been part of um the dbv delivering better outcomes in
send program and dsg management plan which is assisted in mitigating the ongoing risk
send provision is the plan is delivered to mitigate the pressures for more uh local provision
hackney is due an inspection um it's due possibly this spring of uh 2025 which is the send inspection
so we are waiting that the national landscape and performance represents significant challenge in the
system hackney has a three-year action plan to come to be completed by the summer of this year to address
areas previously identified and that includes development and improvement long-term viability
of traded services remains a risk changing finance financial position of the local authority and target
customer base schools and education settings market changes and competition and economies of scale present
challenges ongoing review and improvement program is informing future strategy and delivery
synergy education management information system has been downgraded with respect to the risk profile
the system is now more stable and secure with the move to hosting from an aging infrastructure the
remaining risk with resourcing and development are being managed with effective mitigation
serious safeguarding failures in schools and settings links with the director wide risk across partnership
management and working are working ongoing monitoring of safeguarding systems and processes to manage
effectiveness to mitigate risk of serious safeguarding issues within schools exclusions remain high
ongoing support from schools improvement and exclusion services in addition to developing a revised ap
offer to create a more varied offer to services schools and our children impact of school closures and pupil
mobility on admission increased pupil mobility adding pressure on the admission service resources
monitored in service resource demand to adequately support setting staff and families through the process of
school closures and or amalgamations school budgets number of schools with deficit budgets or imminent
deficit budgets and possibly impact of quality provision current controls include strengthening of budget monitoring
support to the settings review positions with the use of force sustainability which is the education estate
strategy and reviewing our ap arrangements to strengthen the provision and offer improved economies of scale
those are the main um highlights chair but so happy to take any questions
thanks diane and i think that's obviously particularly for our um our new independent members i think that's sort
of very clear in terms of those risks in terms of you know what we have to do to keep keep our children safe
i think for me um i i guess it's this this this this ongoing which is a national thing isn't it around the send spend
but i just wanted to point out that it was welcome to see that you have um that there has been a reduction in um
looked after children um and i think they're one of the reasons for that is that there's been a bit
more of a senior management oversight for decisions for children to enter into care and i think if
there's one of the things that you probably yourself and probably helen and others is that
when you have that senior uh oversight of sort of high risk things it can mean that you you you can
sort of prevent um things happening rather if people are sort of less risk averse that's when you can
sort of cost coming in cure um and obviously we are delighted obviously that we've got the the
children's home which is going to obviously have been an investment but should obviously um mitigate
some of those those high costs that we've had we've having to send our children outside of hackney
um but i'll just go to members to see if anybody wants to make anything particular around it that they
would like to councillor garbert thank you um thank you for the really thorough report and update and
i wanted to just make a quick comment that i feel like the um risk around exclusions could include
kind of the impact it has on the children and family just as a comment because it's
kind of very council do you know because obviously that has impacts further on the council and then my
two quick questions were on um the one risk that's about the family hubs it mentions that the funding
ends at the end of march and it was going to be confirmed in january but i just i didn't know if that
had been confirmed and then the one on the school um estate engagement it says the plan is developed
with the school community and i just wanted to check if that's beyond just head teachers and if it's a
wider group of people just my couple of comments thanks yeah i can answer those so in terms of the
children's hubs and the confirmation of the budget still waiting for that um we're hoping to get that
soon there has been a delay in and dfe um coming back with us in terms of confirmed budgets for the
for the next year so we're still awaiting that and in terms of head teachers my colleague probably jason
will tell you yes it is about involving everybody because it needs it needs that whole system approach
um when we are thinking about our children so uh yes i can definitely give the committee reassurances
in relation to that thank you councillor garber i think we have got lessons to learn on what's been
happening this year with some of our school closures and making sure all parts of the community are
are involved in that um if we have no more then we thank you very much diane what i'm going to ask is
that everybody on the committee just notes the contents the text which registers and controls in
place okay thank you diane and thank you to your teams as well thank you
okay so now you feel free if you wanted to leave as well it's fun to get back to your evening uh we've
now um have the adults have an integration integration director at risk register as well
and we've got our lead officer is our group director for adults health integration helen woodland so
welcome helen um again if you're able to just to be sort of quite succinct and sort of obviously make
make members aware and of the committee of those parts that you'd like us to be mindful of in
terms of your risk register thanks helen yeah thank you chair um thank you committee uh so not
dissimilar to the children's risk register um our profile of risks hasn't substantially changed from
last year um what i would draw the committee's attention to and we've talked a little bit about
it this evening my colleagues and finance have talked about it is really the most significant
risk is the um increased demand um to put this in context for for members overall the demand in adult
social care has increased by 43 percent um but in some areas of service actually that demand is even
higher so when we look at demand for people um who are receiving home care that demand has increased
by 73 percent so there are significant increases in demand and obviously not a corresponding increase
in um available budget um what that leads to is some concern around the risk of the fragility of market
because obviously we commission the majority of our care from the market and we don't necessarily have
the funding uh available to pay them the increases that they would like um though obviously we do work
very closely with them in order to make sure the rate is sustainable um the final thing that i would
draw the committee's attention to is you may well have seen in the news recently uh the proposed changes
to some of the structure and funding for the nhs um so nhs england will obviously be being closed and
reductions to uh funding that is going into and via the the integrated care boards is also reducing
substantially um kind of the headline figure is about 50 percent so for us there is a risk there
although obviously mitigated by working as closely as we can with our partners to manage that risk
but there is a risk for us of cost shunting so what we think we need to be very mindful of going
forward is that services that might need to be stopped or curtailed in the nhs and doesn't mean
that demand increases in adult social care um and i'll stop there for any questions jeff
yeah great thanks helen and i was just going to make reference as well to the impact because i think
one of the things that's been really lovely about london borough of um hackney and working with our nhs
partners is that we did were sort of trailblazers for that integrated work but it actually might
be a bit of a challenge now because we do have various positions which are dual funded and and and
all that will happen as well um so yeah that was just my my reflection is that obviously that's a huge
impact on on what will happen in terms of how people are going to be eligible for various bits and
bobs because it's all going to change um but i will go to the committee to see if anybody would
like to ask do you think perhaps the council lucas then uh anthony um thank you chair thank you helen
for your presentation and um just sort of noted everything you've said around some of the big
challenges in the director anything they're really important i wanted to draw attention to something
which was slightly um different which i found interesting in the pack which is around the work
that's been done around the sort of iconic mortuary so there was two million pounds uh refurbishment
of it um obviously very well known iconic building that has lots of heritage and sort of the
hinterland around operation mincemeat and the rest of it but it says here in the um risk register
that there have been some problems i think um since we opened in january um around staffing issues
and i just wondered if you could expand on that a little bit and just explain to the committee what
the issues have been and what's been sort of put in place to resolve that i think everyone could
agree that that's something we want to see sort of back up to speed and obviously it has a really
important function um day to day to fulfill as well as being um sort of a hackney icon thank you
yeah absolutely um so i'm limited in what i can say because it actually relates to hr matters um so
high level uh what i can say is there was uh an hr issue related to staffing within the mortuary which
is being addressed um which obviously then means that we have to backfill that position um and
mortuary managers as i'm sure the committee can imagine are quite hard to find um so we're in the
process of um working through that kind of hr process um and then we'll respond appropriately depending on
the outcome um it is also worth mentioning when we we talk about the equipment and we have had an
ongoing issue with one of the fridges and so that has now been resolved um we had to go back to the
manufacturer around the electricity supply to the fridge but the equipment issues have now been resolved
thanks hello thank you anthony
thank you i just had a specific question on page 143 for the risk title of existing budget resources
where it talks about uh payment processes were severely impacted by the cyber attacks and therefore
challenges now existing claiming back this income a question was about whether that's still being
impacted by the cyber attack which i think was wasn't in 2020 um and therefore if you're there going
to be writing off significant income or what sort of income will be written off due to that
um yeah so very very valid question uh so although the cyber attack was uh quite some time ago
i suppose the context to understand for this is that it took us um two to three years to
reimplement systems in adult social care um so we did not have a functioning case management system in place until
october 2023 um there is a knock-on effect for this particularly in terms of financial assessments
and so we do have a backlog an outstanding backlog of individuals who have not been financially assessed
there is a transformation project a piece of work that we're doing jointly with our finance colleagues
around that particular issue around financial assessments uh because it involves both a change
in how we financially assess people um but also um some change in how we communicate to people
the expectation that they will be financially assessed and charged for their um service um so i think that
we are back on track now we have a clear direction of travel um and a plan to implement how we address
that going forward um there is a further project looking at debt recovery um and that's being managed
and led by our finance colleagues because that's where where it sits but there will be an expectation
that at least a portion of that debt will need to be written off because of the age of the debt
and i believe what's happening at present is that they're working through that debt to assess
which of it can be recovered and which may need to be written off
uh thanks helen i just wanted to come in there so uh i think i see deirdre wanted to come in but
um just so just to be absolutely clear have we where are we in terms of assessing those people that
want to pay or can pay do we have a timeline to when that will be done because obviously that
that's that's that's obviously i know you just talked about the debt but i just i know it's a financial
responsibility but i just wondered what was happening actually within the sort of the
organisation within your actual service in terms of making sure that from today anybody that is new
does get that assessment um sort of within the normal expected times is that is that's what is
this has just happened because of what's happened with the cyber but can you give a
assurance that whenever you get somebody they're assessed very very quickly in order to if they can pay
they can pay so to to be clear the financial assessments assessment team um doesn't sit
within adult social care it actually sits within in finance um but also to reassure that this relates
to the backlog of people from that period so people coming into the um service are assessed as normal
what we have is a backlog of people who weren't assessed at the point where we didn't have the system
that we need to go back through and reassess so um yes to provide that assurance chair anyone coming
into the service will be assessed as as normal and what we have is an outstanding group of people who
have outstanding assessments that we need to undertake and there is a clear plan um and resources available
to do that with a time scale for that being completed we hope within the next six months um partly
because obviously this is also an imperative because i have an impending cqc assessment um turning
up okay great thank you deirdre uh helen did you want to come in i just wonder if there needs to be
a bit of expediation of this given the financial situation i just wanted to say that the the debt
write-offs have been provided for in account so they'd be they'd be written off against the bear debt
provision um and the people and the income because of the the uh backlog of financial assessments there
hasn't been any income um recognizing the accounts relating to people who have not been fully assessed
so in terms of the financial there's not going to be a hit on the accounts by the writing off of this
debt because we have fully provided for it adequately provided gosh and do we have stuff in place so this
won't ever happen again do we have a function in it software situation that we're just never going
to get to this again yeah so i i i think both helen and i recognize the the importance from an equity
perspective and also from a financial sustainability perspective to make sure everybody um who can afford
to pay for our means tested assessment is paying if i'm honest um so there's a joint commitment around
it i suppose what helen's alluded to is a more rigorous um approach to assessments going forward
uh um seems to have have fallen by the way in some instances partly linked to the cyber attack
partly linked to our approach around people who don't necessarily initially engage in the financial
assessment process and i suppose what what we're really keen to do is is make sure that imperative
is there and actually the light touch assessment will allow us to to address all of those gaps and
make sure that people are charged in a really timely way going forward thanks name i can just see anthony
uh i wanted to have another question yeah it was just i suppose for a transparency point of view
to be able to show is did you say the income won't be shown because the income assessment hasn't been done
yet they could have been an income stream here and that's that's lost and i just think from a
transparency point of view that should be reported
didra um yeah yeah that income that that has been forgone we could report that but i think our levels are a
lot of the client group don't actually have any assets and don't actually make a significant
contributions but there is amount that has been lost as well there's income that has been lost
throughout the period because the assessments hasn't haven't taken place i think anthony makes a valid
point which i think actually that's quite a good motivator to say to people well you know if we'd done
this or this had happened we wouldn't be doing this so i don't know helen did you want to come in
i'm sorry or not on that but i do think anthony's making a valid point we don't necessarily have to
have it on the books but actually it's a reminder to say to people if you don't do this this will
happen and actually i i've talked about this at house scrutiny so it's probably not for today but
there is something around how we get this wig out back in and and and make sure that we are focused
and i know people are vulnerable but people do you know the cap you know there is that's why nhs and
social care is very different because social care is means tested okay does anybody else want to say
anything or should we just close that that piece now so thank you helen thank you very much um does
somebody else go for it zoe it was just it was just um to echo the chair's comments i think obviously
both of our nhs backgrounds we feel very spunky about some of the nhs changes and you obviously mentioned
pooled projects and it just i didn't know how successful kind of pool budgets have been so far
i know you mentioned that there you know we were an earlier doctor but um yeah i think pool budgets
are obviously it's going to have to happen quite quickly and i just think that it needs to be kind
of safeguards and things approached to make sure that they're you know having the best outcome but i'm
sure those are being considered but yeah i think it's just something that i don't know where the
scrutiny is going to happen of of some of this stuff because it is um happening really quickly isn't it
yeah did you want me to come back on that chair yeah you're probably a bit like all of us we don't
know what's happening do we really smoke signals coming out of this i i would agree there's a lack
of clarity so we're hoping that there's slightly more clarity um in the near future we do have um
existing pool budgets in place to provide some reassurance to uh the committee uh they don't
actually necessarily protect contributions from individual partners so the the structure of the
pool budget will be such that if um our nhs colleagues are asked to make significant savings
which they are being asked to do um the money within those pool pool budgets is still in scope
uh for them to uh review um in terms of its use going forward what we do have is very very strong
partnerships um so we were an early adopter really more of the uh integrated uh governance structures
um which are quite strong uh in hackney which is very helpful so i was actually in a meeting just
before coming to this meeting um with the homerton and with our place based leads uh looking at how we
can shape and protect the resource as best we can that we have in hackney going forward um and i think
that that's what we commit to do and will continue to commit to do um and looking forward to some more
clarity hopefully from uh central government around what is expected of us uh in the near future
um thanks helen and we recognize the uncertainty that this has for our workforce and for our colleagues
in the nhs i'm sorry i'm so sorry i just had i had a bit of a to eat them sorry um okay so
in regard to this uh agenda item
can the committee just note the contents of the report and the attached risk registers and controls
in place um that helen has presented this evening okay thank you helen um so we're now on to our
the performance update um and for this we have the corporate head of order anti-fraud and risk
management michael sheffield before michael starts just to say apologies uh michael was good enough
to point this out um i accidentally published the first two appendices the wrong way around so um when
he's referring him please do bear that in mind okay so it's a bit more fundamental than i expected
um but um hopefully it won't cause an issue thank you chair um so the performance report is comprised
of three elements the capital monitoring report was covered in the finance update um in terms of the
performance report we don't have bruce with us tonight to update on that the information is there
in the report for information purposes chair i don't know if there was anything to say about
the future of the performance elements that would be really useful actually uh michael i'm happy to
introduce it um members may be aware we had an lga peer review um and one of the recommendations uh it
was sort of disappointing really because as chair of order i wasn't actually interviewed which would
have been helpful but actually one of the uh uh recommendations that came out was regarding the
position of the performance update um and where it sits within uh the audit committee and sort of
recommendations of like where it should go so michael did you want to add a little bit more detail to
that the next steps um there's not too much i can say on that but i know there'll be discussions and um
it it will end up in the right place um so in terms of what's left the corporate risk scorecard if
you're looking at this electronically click on the performance report and that's where you'll see it
um the so for those that are new to the committee the way that we keep you informed of the corporate
risk register is that twice a year there's a full review of that register and it comes as an item in
its own right that last happened at the previous meeting in january and the the next comprehensive
review is about to kick off and you will see the fully updated register at the next meeting in june so
what you have in front of you tonight is the summary update just to keep you cited um and i'd also note
that the scale of those risks that are at this at the corporate level are such that we don't see
significant change from meeting to meeting that they're big ticket items it's in some respects it's
limited as to what the council can do to to mitigate those risks um on a on a quarterly basis
so the first risk describes the council's overall financial position and the multitude of challenges
that it faces going forward um that's something it's a theme that's reflected in the two previous
risk registers that you've just had the updates on but also note that the the risks of the council's
finances has been at the maximum five by five score for years now and that still doesn't prevent
um major challenges happening on top of that such as the the turmoil of the last last week or so so
we're kind of beyond the maximum score on some of this stuff other risks for example temporary
accommodation send adult social care budgets all arise from resource challenges at a time of
significantly increasing demand so there is a theme to some of this and just to note that one change to
the corporate register in the last three months is that the synergy risk has been de-escalated so
synergy is a it system that is used for several children's and education functions there was an
issue there to do with the underlying it infrastructure that that system sat on but some server issues have
been resolved and the scoring of the risk has come down significantly um so that's in a nutshell the
corporate update um and i'll pause there thank you michael and obviously thank you to bruce who's not
here um we acknowledge the hard work him and his team have done and members anything to of course what
to say yeah perhaps the garbage thank you it was just picking up on obviously we've had a long
conversation about repairs as part of the hra discussion and there's a there's a risk here
where we don't have a target and we didn't have the reporting for this quarter so on i've got the whole
pack but it's like uh the bottom of i don't know what page it is so 203 of the whole pack it's like repairs
completed first time so it just feels like there should be some scrutiny of that if we're really
concerned about that as a area of overspend i guess it's just a comment rather than a question but
it's just a bit concerning and you know another part of the meme we're talking about our concerns
around this and then that just looks like a bit of a gap um yeah what i'll do i'll take that away
i'll feed back to bruce i think that's probably also relevant to one of the items that we've got on
the proposed internal audit plan for next year um so just while we're on the subject that's looking at
um at the repairs budget and and how that's under control how we go about monitoring repairs are we
looking at the right things are we looking at them in time to constrain cost as far as possible
i think it's a really valid question and and that's very much why we've set up this hra finance
improvement board to really uh forensically look at um repairs and maintenance so are we getting it
right first time are we getting to the heart of the problem or are we having to go in multiple times
across a month or over a longer period i think that that's certainly the right question um as a group that
will be focusing on and and really understanding what's driving that demand um is it the fact that
we've got um an aging aging housing stock that just requires further repairs or is there a fundamental
issue where we're going in multiple times and there could be a you know a wider modernizing strategy that
we want to implement in each of those homes to try and address some of these issues that's good because
yeah we've done a lot of that for living in scrutiny living in hackney scrutiny and i know that
councillors have lots of experience of obviously we hear when things have gone very wrong for people
where they complain they've had like three surveyors and no action and that kind of stuff so yeah if it
can just link in with living in hackney when councillors that'd be great thanks so lucas yes thank
you chair i think it's right again just referring to sort of the wider packing page 206 in particular
i was struck really by the two measures at the top of the page around street cleanliness which i think
is something that elected members and others um feel every day and and get lots of correspondence
on this from from constituents and i think you know to see in there um on defra's code of practice
litter and refuse that you know on the first score of um you know detritus and litter we've got sort of
13.7 of hackney streets being classified as grade c or below which in fact i had had a look and what
that means is that there's a widespread distribution of literature and refuse with minor accumulations that's
what defra sort of encapsulated that as and then on the on the sort of score below that which is
around detritus the score is 9.03 i think it's just the point around you know clean streets and waste
being a reputational risk as well as you know obviously the financial implications of it and
it's something that's felt every day so just a comment really to feed that back through to the
relevant obviously screws new functions and back to back to the administration of the council but i think
those those numbers were quite stark and you can see on the graph there there's a notable uptick
over the last few quarters over the last couple of years so it's something i think we should really
focus on from a day-to-day perspective i think absolutely chris has absolutely hit the nail on
the head because that's the statutory duty that we keep our streets clean um and i think you know
that's the sort of stuff where where financially uh it's a huge cost but also it's a cost because
people won't want to come to hackney or you know people because it it just doesn't look and it's it's not
you know something that we we want to see it declining in terms of what the basics should be
for the borough um um okay i think that's that's all thank you so much for that uh report so just
to clarify uh for the next uh meeting uh before we have a little bit more clearer sort of uh around
what's happening with the future in terms of performance but just to feedback again thank you to
to bruce's team for some of the hard work they've done in trying to get to a better thing on that as
well thank you thank you so again just formally um we are going to consider performance report which
we've done the risk management school card in appendix b and uh the current capital monitoring
update appendix three okay members great thank you so much um i guess it is it is um so michael uh we've
now got the order and anti-fall progress report uh which i know members uh of the audit committee like
to look at so again we have michael sheffield is the lead officer and uh we've been asked to consider
and note the progress and performance um of the order and anti-fall service so again michael if you're
able to just sort of highlight those areas that you'd like us to sort of be mindful of as a
committee thank you um so this is a report that regularly comes to committee to update you on
performance in terms of both the audit work against the audit plan and also the investigations work that
the the service undertakes um so not to be confused i'm talking here about the current audit plan for the
year that's just ended there's a later agenda item which covers the audit plan for the future year
in terms of the audit plan the completion stood at 66 percent in mid-march which compares to 73
at the end of last year and our kpi target of 90 percent so that's below kpi but there are a few
things that need to be measured against that um audit staff availability during the year has been a
factor and it should also be noted that work equivalent to 32 percent of the plan which originated
in the previous financial year was actually concluded during the year so we are despite everybody's
best efforts always in a pattern of work to finish at the end of one year which impacts on starting the
next year's plan but people are very busy and in terms of the work that's delivered it's equivalent
to a full year's plan during the course of any given year um and it's also worth noting that 48 audits
were concluded during the year just gone compared to 35 in the year preceding that the assurance ratings
that arise from the completed audit reviews continue to be largely positive i have to flag that there's been
an increase in the limited and the no assurance audit reviews during the year so that's increased from
five percent of audit work to 14 and a half percent of audit work there's some common themes in all of
those limited assurance reviews in that they either concern in some respect a third-party organization to
hackney which is either a school or a tenant management organization and those in institutions are
separate from the council and have their own governance and control arrangements and the other factor
that is is that would cover the remaining audits is it arrangements were a factor for some some of those
reviews as well for those of you that have been on the committee for some time you'll probably recall
that i've said in the past that during the preceding years when we had the challenge of um covid and
then the cyber attack we were unable to conduct full programs of audit work there were limitations as to
what could be looked at at those points in time and i think that one consequence of that is that
we're now able to look across the spectrum and we're looking at places where there were bigger
problems at those times and there's been greater challenges and that's probably reflected in some
of those ratings um the implementation of the recommendations that arise from the audits that
have been undertaken they the implementation rates continue to be good and within or around our kpi
target of 90 implemented or partially implemented so 100 of the high recommendations are in that bracket
89 percent of the median ones are and there's also been some really good improvement with the school's
implementation rate during the year a year ago that stood at 66 implementation it's up to 95
implementation now so that's estimates the work of the audit team but also to to the school's oversight
team as well um moving on to the investigation service the covering report sets out the estimated
benefits from the investigation work during the last three months of 0.76 million which is worth noting
um a that that's down on what i'd usually expect because of challenges that we've had in the realms
of tenancy fraud during the year but that still more than covers the cost of investigations audit and
risk management during the period overall referrals for fraud are slightly down and again tenancy is the
source of the source of that um it they've held up in all other areas and that tenancy piece is
rebounding so i do expect that that's um an issue that has largely passed albeit we're working really
hard with the team to make sure it stays where it is um eight tendencies were recovered during the three
month period and in terms of some of the other areas that are regularly updated to committee the no recourse
to public funds team um so for those that are new hackney has a duty to support people with no other
means of support um due to their immigration status and the investigation service has um is is embedded
with the no recourse to public funds team so all applications get an increased level of scrutiny to
ensure that the gateway is tight and only those that are entitled to support get it because that support
is from public from local public funds rather than national public funds and 20 applications were
either rejected or cancelled following investigation involvement and in addition we also had a piece of
work under the proactive counter-fraud plan to look at all nrpf cases that were over a year old and still in
payment and that resulted in all of those claims being verified as eligible for ongoing support so
that's the flip side of investigations work it's not just about stopping what shouldn't be happening
it's also that extra level of assurance that the where we are spending that that's legitimate
in terms of parking there were 81 parking fraud sanctions during the three-month period so the financial
value of those is lower but of course that's really important to people that do have a blue badge that
have trouble parking in the in the council's boundaries because other people are misusing permits
um so that's the update in broad brush strokes for audit and for anti-fraud and i'll pause there and happy
to take any questions okay thanks chair and just going back to the bit around um just in terms of the
progress of internal audit work i'm just mindful that one of the postponed reviews was around the complaints
handling for housing and there's a reason for deferrals management because obviously there's the external
housing ombudsman para 49 pending report do we have an update on when that will be available
or if we need to do like one not not that you need to ask where the housing ombudsman
para 49 pending report was i just was just i don't know if members were aware that that was happening and whether or not um
we had an update on on that i understand that report is imminent
um the audit hasn't gone ahead because the report's not received and obviously it's going to inform the work that we do
but that piece of work will take place during the next audit plan okay and it was just a comment as well just making reference to what you said around some of the uh
some of the uh investigatory work that it's it's it is so disappointing that we're still seeing this
misuse of blue badges as well given the impact not just financially but taking up space for people that
need them so i guess it's something that um we as an audit committee can't do too much other than highlight
it but obviously as a other committees that counselors sit on they may want to think about
doing a bit more work around what we can do to to prevent that uh members council luca
thank you again michael for your uh presentation just a very quick um perhaps human question i know
you've mentioned a few times this committee uh um you you had sort of capacity issues within your
team in the past and you're working hard to resolve them and i know in your report you you mentioned
around the audit apprentice and sort of extending the team um wider for now just how is that going
do you feel like you supported and have the sort of capacity that you need to to operate effectively
at the moment in terms of the audit apprentice that's been one of the best experiences of the last
year um i'd heard other people talk about it but until you're involved yourself and you see the
enthusiasm that a younger person brings to the team um the willingness to learn the energy um the
positive approach has been been really good i it i can't sit here and pretend that in the space of
six months that someone is able to do the same sort of work as a internal auditor with 20-year career
behind them and deliver that that will take time but in terms of the raw materials it's been really
really good um there's been other challenges across the service in terms of sickness and the reasons
behind that have been addressed it's being worked through and that is an improving situation um so
there's been there's been some difficult times there are there are still challenges with um i don't
want to say too much about a a personal situation in in a public meeting that there is a a difficult
situation that we have on on the team that will be challenging yeah that's fine yeah we don't need to
go any further yeah that's fine okay i'm just mindful of time members uh anthony just yeah okay i look
yeah uh yeah thanks i thought it was really interesting um just a couple of things in terms
of so the analysis of outcomes whether there is also a result in reporting to the national fraud
database or the hackney council is a member of the cyfast for reporting to the national fraud database
and also checking um applications etc against that as well um and i'll just cover one of the points
if that's all right um i was really interested in the fact that there seems to be quite a low number
of blocker applications and my understanding was that for councils the bar for a blocker application
can actually be quite low you can have a regulatory outcome and then apply for blocker which could be
uh potential income stream uh potential income stream sorry
i want to repeat that be great i'm sorry just the last bit it was about cyphers the second bit
was more about uh i was just interested in the the number of pocket applications and whether that
seemed quite low because i thought the bar for pocket applications was actually quite low because
it can be done on a regulatory outcome as opposed to a criminal or a prosecution
thanks um in terms of cyphers we're we're not a member but we have explored it and there's a
conversation that i need to take forward with hr about that so um just very briefly cyphers
maintain a database where you can report the outcomes of proven frauds and then that would allow
say another authority to check that at the point of taking somebody on do some checks make sure
that hackney's not getting rid of a problematic member of staff only for them to walk back through
the door somewhere else so it's something that we have been looking at i think to me there was some
question marks about the where the bar is set in terms of being able to report because we will quite
often investigate and the investigation is such that a member of staff will walk um and at that point
we have to take a view should the council devote more resources if we're not actually going to get a
financial sum coming back to someone that has left so there's considerations like that but i absolutely
agree that in terms of principle it does make sense and there is a conversation to be had
in terms of the proceeds of crime act applications um they have been low in the last quarter there are
some quarters where there are um higher volumes one of the things that's impacted on that is that
we've had some particularly good outcomes over the last year and a half in terms of the planning
applications that the council um administers so we've had we had one case that sticks in the mind
a a landlord split a property single property into about nine units they weren't fit for human
habitation because they were so small um there were they were they were prosecuted under the planning
laws for that and we've got a really good outcome on it there have been um some problems in terms of
legal capacity and taking some of those cases forward which means that we've not had anything coming
through on the planning side for a while but that is a blockage that has been resolved as i understand
it and i've had some quite recent conversations and believe that that should be coming through again
in the near future great thank you so much thank you for the question around the database and we'll
take on board to see what we can do as an audit committee in terms of strengthening what you were
talking about about having that that that process that people can't go to another council because
that obviously impacts on our reputation as well if doesn't it if we've had somebody
um okay uh can we just move on now again uh michael onto the the whistleblowing
all fits very nicely doesn't it all of this uh my onto the whistleblowing annual report
um and again we're just being asked to note the whistleblowing annual report
thank you okay so this is the report that comes once a year to update on the whistleblowing arrangements
that in in terms of the headlines on this whistleblowing represents a small volume of the referrals
that come through to the team but that doesn't mean that other referrals that come through to the
team aren't treated confidentiality in confidence and that we offer the same protection to anyone
that's reporting in terms of making sure that if they're a member of staff that there's not a detriment
that they suffer if they're raising something in good faith although there's only a small volume of
concerns that get raised in this way it's really important to have that avenue available to people
so that they feel confident to report concerns so that we can do something about it and so that it comes
to us internally before it's taken externally and that can make things more difficult to to deal with
there were five referrals received through our independent reporting hotline during 24 25
contact details are publicized on the intranet and also they're provided to all new starters when they
join the council we also refresh the whistleblowing policy every other year so that will come to the
committee at the equivalent meeting next year and after each refresh it gets publicized to the organization
and new two further fraud concerns were raised as whistleblowing but not via the hotline process
and in terms of the outcomes one of the reported fraud cases didn't result in any further action being
taken three remain under investigation and one concerned an ex-employee and our risk assessment showed that
there wasn't any um benefit in conducting further inquiries and we concentrated on other um concerns that had been raised
all right thank you very much michael um anything that was the blame i think i think we can just all
note the whistleblowing annual report a much welcomed report and important as well thank you very much
so now we'll move on to agenda item 13 which is the internal order annual plan for 2025-2026 and we're being
asked to consider and improve the proposed internal order annual plan for 20 25 26 and key performance
measures thank you michael thank you chair so yeah i'll just emphasize again this is for elected members to
approve the uh approve the audit plan if you're happy with it and also i neglected to mention that we also have a
nicole adi indi who's the internal audit manager who um who oversees the delivery of the plans and also
we've worked very closely on this and with members across with senior colleagues across the council to to develop
the plan for next year's work um so the audit plans presented as part of this report sets out
our intended work program for the year ahead there's been healthy engagement from all service areas
during the planning process which is fed into the proposed work plan one of the things i need to be
mindful of is that our audit coverage is sufficiently broad that at the next meeting when i give my
control assessment for the year that it's um it is sufficiently broad for me to give a general comment
for the council the plans derived from a number of sources most importantly it's a risk-based plan so
the corporate risk register and the underlying directorate risk registers are key in terms of the
sources of many of the reviews on the plan we do a assessment exercise to compare the corporate risk
risk register to previous internal audit reviews and that may highlight if there's gaps if there's
key risks that we haven't carried out audit work in relation to i don't think there are any gaps from
the most recent assessment but that is part of the report um presented to you um so risk is a is a key
informer of what goes into the the um plan other sources include reviews carried forward that we
weren't able to deliver during 24 25 management requests areas where we know that there's change
which is a risk in itself governance issues raised through the annual governance process follow-up work
from previous audits outcomes from investigations and a consideration of the materiality of the council
systems in addition to reviews that we must undertake for entities such as schools tenant management
organizations and the mortuary service the proposed audit work is set out in the plan on pages 264 to 268
of the pack it includes themes that have been debated by the committee during the year such as council owned
companies climate change temporary accommodation and housing repairs and we we have a degree of flexibility
within the plan you'll notice that there is a reserve list which allows us to build in a contingency for
some of the staff issues that i've alluded to but also during the course of the year it's by no means
uncommon that some audits drop out other areas become more important get highlighted and they need we
do need to to um retain capacity to to introduce new items as as the year progresses um within the plan
due this was just down to the um reporting deadlines for committee there is currently a gap in the plan
under the corporate um corporate list of proposed work there's i think 35 days that's unaccounted for
and i've in advance of the this meeting i've been able to have the conversations necessary to um confirm
that the audits we intend to escalate from the reserve list to fill that space is the ict device
management so that's how um ict equipment is handed out recovered some of the decision processes behind
who gets what and also the grievance process within hr because um those things whenever they happen are
disruptive and just check the arrangements are as tight as they can be on that so that that's the
two intended substitutes which which aren't written in front of you at the moment um so if i can pause
there and take any questions on the work plan
thank you michael uh council government thanks michael there's some really great stuff on this
internal audit plan i think it's going to be really really great stuff i'm really glad to see climate
change i know it's been delayed a few times you know i've asked about it so i'm really glad to see
that's got its days allocated um my true green green values um i've got two quick questions one's really
good to see the permanent exclusions work i know that's a huge concern to lots of parents and i know
that cyp scrutiny committee have been looking at it and i know there's only room for a small box but
i just wondered if the scope was just permanent exclusions or if it included like managed moves and
off-rolling and if it was i know it says it looks at specific schools but i've heard it you know it
disproportionately affects black children and children with send so i just didn't know if there's
scope for that in that um investigation and then the other one of interest is the private rented
sector one so the process to manage incentive payments to private landlords so i think so this
was in the private rented sector strategy something that i found quite concerning and i did ask about
it living in hackney scrutiny and was sort of assured i thought that it's not something that's happening
yet or could be employed at some point was this sort of response i got um so it'd just be interesting
you know if that's actually happening or if this is kind of setting up a process to manage incentive
payments thanks um in terms of the private rented sector actually the first point to note is that
the detail of these audits is not set out until nearer the time we do a full terms of reference so
this is very much high level and some of that conversation with the service areas is yet to happen
in terms of the private rented sector um my understanding is that checks are made on 100
of payments at present um and that's possible because the rental market is suppressed but there
is a drive to potentially make greater use of private rented sector so um there's perhaps a question mark
about how viable it is to do 100 checking if if you're expanding the program and there's there's more
more use of that sector um so i don't know if that gets to the no i didn't know that we did them
already i thought this was the new ones from the private rented sector strategy but maybe that's
something i can pick up yeah maybe you could email or yeah if i can have some more information about
that i think for me what we need to as an audit committee is just be mindful that we've got an
internal audit plan that is focusing on some of those areas that we've talked about today so some of that
around potential income collection but also around use of resources as well i think that's quite useful
incentive payments so obviously the council paying out to landlords so we're losing money
is my concern
yeah oh i i suppose i suppose it's not necessarily losing money if you're paying to avoid a bigger cost
oh so this is the incentive payments to for temporary accommodation oh in a private renter's strategy
it says that we're going to pay landlords to go to forums and give them council tax breaks so i think
i'd confuse it yeah maybe maybe pick it up with like who's the relevant james james or the cabinet
member for various members that we have great thank you so much uh for that uh so just on that note can
we just uh sorry exclusions oh yes did you answer the question about these exclusions
so i think that's one where i'm going to fall back on the detail of the audit is not
not fully set out at the moment but i'd be more than happy if there's particular areas of concern
if you wanted to contact me outside the meeting and and at least at the very least i'd be aware of
those great thank you so much um just to say thank you very much for your work on this michael and i
think the the offer is always there for for members of the community to to shadow as well isn't it if we
that's appropriate so i'm sure we can take up that offer as well but thank you very much to you and
your team so we consider improving the proposed internal order annual plan and key performance
measures yep great lovely and now we're just going to come on to the annual report of the audit committee
which is michael um and it's got a little bit of me as well but if you go ahead as well that'd be great
thank you thank you thank you i'm i'm reluctant to take credit for your you're in the team's work
chair um the the report um is it's a it's a requirement under under good governance that the report is
prepared to to report back on the good work that the committee does so um the reports that you routinely
routinely receive and have received tonight in in terms of finance in terms of audit and risk um external
audit um so it's acknowledging all of that that the committee's um fulfilled its duties in in doing
that work um and also some of the um additional innovative things that the committee does such as the
deep dives into areas of particular concern um the report is brought first of all to audit committee i
think um as a courtesy because it's your report and so that you know what's in there it there is a
requirement that it goes to full council later and it's scheduled for the july meeting for that
i think i think i may have mentioned it already but um one of the things that um i don't get fired
in this is two things is around our our role as responsible committee members around keeping an eye
on what's happening with this use of reserves and making sure that we have you know it's a good team
that we've got here that are able to provide us with that information um but also members might want
to know obviously we've welcomed having uh anthony mariam today that's been a big achievement of us
as a committee to get to that stage but also um when i've been able to attend lga uh orders care of
audit leadership essentials weekend it was quite clear to me that we were functioning quite well as
an audit committee in terms of looking at other peers and looking at some of the best practice that
is recommended so i think we can all be commended uh to obviously to officers but also to ourselves
as well that we we keep an interest in the audit committee and we ask um you know we ask inquiry
we've got professional curiosity around wanting to understand a little bit more so i just want to
extend my thanks to you all and also to officers as well which i'll hopefully be able to do a little
bit more detail in july but if everybody's happy we can put this through uh to note it and then it'll go
to full council in july so thank you very much um and gosh we're speaking through okay did anyone else
want to have any comments on the annual audit report no i hope you we've covered everybody there's been
lots of movements we've covered everybody coming and going um so we just move on to the audit work
program um agenda item 15 i think it's just to note it uh just just remind everybody that this is the
last uh audit committee for this uh municipal year obviously pending um uh agms and such like uh we will
be meeting again uh after the summer break but um i think the the audit committee work program hasn't
uh essentially changed to what it happens normally i think we've got the deep dive uh transformation
um which is proposed for june uh which will be interesting um but again it's going to be quite a busy
a busy um agenda item and i don't know it's maybe not for tonight but something to think about how
we're how frequent we're meeting given the the current challenges that we have around the final
financial position so it might be worth finding out how often other audit committees work and i guess
this might have to feed into how we do you know the overall the much needed review of our constitution
that is going on around other parts of how we're conducting our business um but yeah anybody have
any particular questions around the workforce the sorry the um audit committee work program
cancelling just thank you chair just to put um my thanks to you uh council lynch on your excellent
chairing of the the committee through this uh municipal year and to colleagues as well on these
benches and to officers as well it's been good to be on and mark of course he does an excellent job
so thank you just to just to note that for the record thank you ah very much appreciated councillor
lucas thank you very much um and councillor god yeah just to um echo that and just to say how great it
is to have our independent um members and i wonder if they could be added to the front i don't know if
there's a section we can put them like them their names on the front now that they are formally part they
will be they will be from going forward excellent brilliant thank you thank you everybody um so on
that note uh do we i haven't got any uh any other urgent business so um again once again thank you to
all of that they've attended in the town hall and also for those online and also again welcome our new
members and uh thank you as always to officers for their time this evening and for being honest and
providing us with much needed information around uh to support us in our roles as audit committee
members um so on that note i for me declare the end of the meeting thank you thank you
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