Transcript

Thank you. The meeting is now live. Jay, over to you. Wonderful. Hello, everybody. So, welcome to this licensing subcommittee, which is being held remotely. The meeting is being webcast, so if there are any technical issues, please bear with us. I am Councillor Morris McLeod and I am chairing this meeting. I am now going to invite the other attendees to introduce themselves in the following order. So, we have got my fellow councillors on the subcommittee. If you can introduce yourselves. Hello, I am Councillor Mark Justin, councillor for Nine Elms. I am Norman Marshall, councillor for South Ballam. Welcome, both of you. The other officers around the room will sort of introduce themselves as and when they come up to speak. Do we have any apologies for absence? I don't think we do, do we? We don't. Thank you. And so, before, before I start with the first application, I'd like to advise anyone that's attending for the Elam Enterprises agenda item, which is to follow. I'd like to ask them to switch their cameras off and their microphones on mute, just so that they don't interfere with this first hearing. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, so now we consider the first application on the agenda, which is for a new premises licence in respect for the premises known as Wine Direct Limited, which is Unit 5B Parkfield Industrial Estate Colvert Place London SW11 5BA. I now invite the licensing manager to introduce the application. Thank you, Chair. I'm mindful you've read the paperwork, so I'm just going to give you the summary of the case that you have before you. This is a premises licence applied for by Wine Direct Limited for a unit on 5B Parkfield Industrial Estate, which is on Corvette Road in Battersea. The premises is aware of the premises with no public access and the applicant is seeking to operate as a delivery hub for South London Region. The applicant has asked for the sale of alcohol for consumption of the premises 24 hours a day, seven days a week. The application was advertised as required under the Licensing Act, and this resulted in the applicant agreeing conditions with the Metropolitan Police, specifically relating to security and keeping an incident book and also CCTV for the prevention of crime and disorder as a licensing objective. The applicant also agreed conditions with trading standards relating to refusal records, staff refresher training and keeping of staff training records. The Council's environmental services officer from the noise and nuisance team are requesting that the hours proposed be reduced to 7am till midnight, Sunday to Thursday, and 7am to 2am the following morning, Friday to Saturday. The Environmental Health Services Officer has objected to this application because they have stated that it is not in line with the Council's statement of licensing policy framework of ours, which is detailed under section 9 of the licensing policy. This is the only valid representation that you are considering tonight, members. There are no other representation from other responsible authorities or any other persons. The copy of the representation has already been forwarded to the applicant and has been made available to the subcommittee tonight. The applicant has proposed measures to promote the licensing objectives as conditions of the license if the licensing subcommittee were minded to grant this license. These are produced in appendix here of the report on pages 7 to 9 of the agenda. The licensing subcommittee may modify these conditions if they consider such steps appropriate after hearing all the evidence tonight. The options available to the subcommittee are to take such steps that they consider appropriate for promoting the licensing objectives. And these are either to grant the application as requested, modify the conditions of the license if the committee were minded to grant it, or to reject the all part of the application. That's the summary of the application you have before you, Chair and members. I'm happy to answer any questions or any points of clarification at this stage. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much, Ms Sharkey. Do any of my colleagues have any questions? Councillor Justin. Yeah, I mean, the application that they've asked of 20,000, are the deliveries to this predominantly deliveries to or taking away from? The applicant may clarify that for you. The applicant may clarify that for you. The applicant may clarify that for you. The applicant may clarify that for you. The applicant may clarify that for you. Exactly. So, as I understand it, it's going to be a delivery hub where obviously people will order the alcohol and then they'll have to deliver it from that site. But I'm hoping the applicant may or the applicant representative can clarify the business model for you at this stage, Councillor. Thank you. Any other questions for Councillor Marshall? Or did I see your hand up? Maybe not. You're on mute, Councillor, if you're trying to speak. Oh, I thought you meant I was on mute. Sorry. No, sorry, Councillor Marshall. Councillor Marshall, if you're trying to speak. Clarification on the introduction. Thank you for the introduction. But could you just clarify again that point about that it doesn't, the application doesn't fit with the framework for these types of premises promoted by the Council? Is that what I've understood correctly from the documentation? Yes, that is correct, Councillor. The framework of hours that we've proposed in our licensing policy is 7am to midnight Sunday to Thursday and 7am to 2 the following day, Friday and Saturday. Those are the hours that we have proposed in our statement of licensing policy for the Council. So, yes, that is how I've stated it. I understand this falls foul of this because it's intended to operate 24 hours. Yes, so the noise and nuisance officer here, Mr. Robert Newby-Walker, is here to object on that basis that the application as it is in its current format does not meet the Council's statement of licensing policy. Right. Would I be correct in my understanding that that framework is largely directed at premises that are selling alcohol to the public, whereas this is a distribution hub that's moving alcohol from a storage place to some other distribution outlet rather than directly to the public? Is that correct? The section in itself has got, and I'm hoping the legal advisor will advise you further on the section itself, Councillor, but it does have a combination of what the framework, the location of the premises in the residential area, and it's not about the business model, it's about the location of premises within the barra. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Before you come in, Councillor, so I can see a hand up. Sorry, Paul Greeno. Was that... No, it's me. Yes, I... To speak. I just wanted to... Sorry, can you... Sorry, can you... Who are you? Excuse me. Sorry, I'm the legal advisor. Thank you. Right. I wasn't sure if you were, if you... I thought you might be the applicant for a minute. Yeah. Okay. No, no. Sorry, I'm the legal advisor standing in for Guy Bishop this evening. If I can just clarify the position regarding the framework hours or the hours of framework, what you've got is it's covered by Section 9 of the Statement of Licensing Policy. However, what Section 9.3 specifically states is that each application must be considered and predetermined licensed opening hours must not be imposed without consideration being given to the merits of each individual application. So, what you have is a position where the council has set framework hours that it says ideally these are the hours that people should be seeking. But if they wish to go beyond those framework hours, then they would normally address that within their operating schedule looking at conditions. There was also the question in relation to delivery services. This is actually dealt with in Section 15 of the Statement of Licensing Policy, specifically 15.3, which states possible public nuisance caused by delivery drivers collecting deliveries from licensed premises. And they look at possible prevention of such nuisance and an example given by using courier services that encourages drivers to use vehicles that are less likely to cause noise or air quality nuisances. So, you may wish to explore with the applicant as they are applying for something that goes beyond the framework hours. What noise mitigation measures, what noise mitigation measures they have in place. And likewise with the environmental health officer who has raised issues in relation to deliveries and noise, what impact other vehicles in that area would have. So, is it a quiet area where there's very little through traffic or is it a road where there is already quite a lot of traffic and therefore how much would the delivery drivers be adding to what is already there? So, unless I do have any specific questions, that's all I need to say on the actual licensing policy. Thank you very much, Mr. Greenham. Councillor Justin. Can we be given some more information on exactly how much activity will be taking place at this venue, say from midnight onwards? I mean, everywhere that there's a collection made or a delivery means that somewhere else is getting that delivery. If you're collecting at two o'clock in the morning from this depot, you're going to annoy somewhere else in another area at four o'clock in the morning. I mean, then again, if it's not that frequent, why can't we just have some figures on what kind of volume of traffic will be taking place at this depot from midnight onwards? I mean, this is the basic information we need to make a decision on this. That's something that hopefully the applicant will address you on. Yeah, I was about to say, Councillor, those are questions for the applicant. We can certainly interrogate all that sort of stuff with them. Ms Hickey? Chair, sorry, would you mind just asking if there are any declarations of interest? I think we just missed that at the beginning of the meeting. Apologies. Thank you very much. I did think that was missing from the notes. I thought maybe we pared down. Sorry, at this point, I need to ask if anyone attending, any of the subcommittee have any declarations of interest for any of the things that we're going to discuss for tonight. I don't know the exact legal wording, sorry. That's to you, Councillors, Justin and Marshall. No, no. Thank you. Thank you, Ms Hickey. Sorry, any more questions for Caroline Sharkey about the license? So not about the, like I said, we can get into the detail of the business model and all that sort of stuff with the applicant, and we can even get into why environmental health are concerned when we talk to the environmental health officer. Is there anything about this, about the application itself, about the, about the nature of the application that we need to ask the officer? I'm seeing no response, so I think, I think that's okay. Thank you very much, Ms Sharkey. Thank you. I now, sorry. Okay, so I now invite those making, those speaking for the applicant, so I've completely lost myself in the notes here. I now invite those speaking for the applicant. I don't know the name of the person who's representing. Mr Flowers, do you know, or Ms Hickey? Have you got me on the screen? Hi, Mr Daly. Hello. Yep, so it's Mr Daly. Hello. Oh, thank you. Hello there. Hi, hi there. Sorry for that. I did say, prepare yourself for any hiccups. Are you representing, are you the applicant? Yes, I'm not the applicant as such, but I'm retained by the company to assist with licensing and compliance and applications as in this case. So this application has been made by Wine Direct. They have a number of other companies that they operate all under the same banner. Another one is Appleberry Foods. Another one is Bottle Basket. And each individual company performs a different function, but they tend to operate a similar model. And that model is the delivery of alcohol to residential premises. So in total across the UK, there's an excess of 20 licenses. They're located in Liverpool, Sheffield, Nottingham, Bath, Bristol. There's a number in and around London, some of which operate from self storage units and some of which operate from premises like this, which have been chosen to reduce any impact on local residents and cause nuisance in the area. So the reason this premises was chosen is that its location is situated very near those railway lines and not near any residential areas. The business model itself, just to explain, I think Councillor Justin touched on it there. It's very difficult to determine the volume of sales that will be going from this premises. However, if we look at different models that they have. So, for example, if you want to buy whiskey, you might go on a certain website that they operate, which would then be a general delivery and that would be dispatched through the post. That would most likely be done during the daytime. They operate their own website, which would deliver directly to you as an individual within a certain radius of that premises. And then they also would advertise on third party platforms such as Deliveroo, Just Eat and Uber Eats. The way those businesses work in terms of the model that they operate is they obviously charge a fee to the person who's purchasing the alcohol. And they charge a fee to the operator and then they take a cut of that. So, whilst they're a great advertising platform for someone who might want to purchase alcohol and not go out of their house at, say, one in the morning, there is no discernible benefit to the license holder. In fact, they would rather that you bought directly from the website so that it essentially cut out the middleman. Having a look in terms of the licensing policy in the area, one of the considerations for this premises itself was the fact that there are other licensed premises within the industrial estate. Having a look at those licenses that are currently in operation, you've got Deliveroo, license 32237, which is operating until one in the morning. You have Air Kitchens, which is operating until five in the morning, and you have another firm, Encore, until 2am. One of the concerns for this business is that when managing their own deliveries, they're quite capable of giving the staff extensive training and operating either pedal cycles or electric vehicles. That's not an issue. The difficulty for the license holder, and what they don't want to fall foul on, is operating on external third-party websites. And those websites, such as JustEast, a driver comes along, collects an order, and then delivers not using an electric vehicle. So this seems to be the key issue in and around where Mr. Newby Walker has made his representations, and he's put forward that it will cause additional noise nuisance. Whilst an electric vehicle would obviously be much more preferable, I know from speaking with the owners of the business and the other ones they operate, they operate at peak time from about midnight until 3am. So their business model is very similar to other business models, where the peak time would be from midnight until 3am. That's the period in which people are less likely to go and try and find a 24-hour Tesco and go and buy alcohol. People get lazy, and people just get it delivered. But in respect of this application, I think the president has been set, as in there's an app license there, which is 24 hours as well. I think it's under the name of Quick Commerce Limited on your licensing register. Now they have 24 hours, but they do have restrictions from 2am until I think it's 6am that they have to use electric vehicles. For this application, I would hopefully consider granting the application as requested. One thing I'd like to consider is that the focus of Mr Newby's reps, and every hearing should be focused on the representations that have been made and no other external factors. The focus of Mr Newby Walker's reps is that those residential premises that are close to the exit from the industrial estate, which goes under the train line, may be affected by increased noise at hours late in the morning. There are restrictions on some of the other licenses. However, if you bear in mind that the peak times that these businesses operate is from midnight to 3am. The restrictions on the other licenses have been placed from 2am until 6am. So, we can quite rightly assume that from 12am until 2am, the other operators may or may not be using electric vehicles. There are a number of operators, I can count fives there, operating from the same industrial estate. If they've been operating for a couple of years, what we would expect to see would be a series of complaints from residents in the area saying there are extensive amount of vehicles going past my road and they're causing a noise nuisance. So, this business will not exacerbate any of those issues because no reference has been made to any complaints that have been received by the authority. We haven't had any evidence that there is a noise nuisance within the area. And just to take it back to the issue that the applicant doesn't want to fall foul of the conditions that may be placed through any third party inadvertently sending a driver who is on, I don't know, a moped or is driving a hybrid vehicle or a motorized vehicle. So, considering that, if you're in mind to grant the application, I think the applicant, where they would always drive the business to the website rather than use the third party couriers, the applicant themselves could condition it and make sure that their drivers will use electric vehicles, but not necessarily the third party drivers. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. So, councillors, any questions for the applicant? Just again, a question of clarification. Councillor Marshall. Sorry. Apologies. Question of clarification. So, this is meeting a demand from members of the public who need to purchase alcohol in the small hours, sort of after midnight. And the easiest way for them to do that is to order it online. Yes. And to get it delivered to their houses at two o'clock in the morning, let's say. That's anticipated to be the major gap that this service is filling. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Councillor Justin? Yes. What's the minimum order, then, to use this service? I'm at home. It's four o'clock in the morning, and I have a desperate urge for a litre of scotch. What are you going to... What's the minimum order? One bottle? One case? I'm not sure. I think it would differ depending on which platform you were using. So, you can't... I would imagine, Councillor, if it's like Deliveroo or any of those, there probably is a minimum order, you know, to make it even worth getting delivery. But I don't think it'd be that much. Is that what you're trying to find out? Yeah, but the point is that the smaller, you know, the actual minimum order is absolutely critical in trying to work out the volume of business and the amount of traffic that we're going there. If it was restricted to a case of beer, a case of wine, six bottles of scotch, you would know that that kind of purchase would only be undertaken by someone who was running a party, they'd run out of booze or something like that. But if it was a single bottle of any of these, that's going to dramatically increase the number of potential people who are going to order from there. The difficulty is it's very speculative because there's no way to determine those figures without actually running the business. I mean, there are a number of businesses that operate out of there, one of which... I think the Council also... Yeah. I think you said that this is a rollout of a model that's already been done in several other cities. So there must be some experience from other cities of... Yeah. So one of the considerations for, and this is not exactly confidential business operations, but the way these businesses will work is that if you are in your living room in Wandsworth and they are purely based in convenience, so it's not just alcohol, it's snacks, it's other foodstuffs. It's essentially dark news agents, but people want convenience. So what they do is they'll open the app and they'll go onto the section which is convenience stores and they'll select what they want. And the ones that appear top of the list are the ones that are within the closest radius of your premises. So a lot of these businesses, Zap, this company and a few others, they have a load of depots located all around those sort of densely populated geographical regions. And that means that you could order in Wandsworth and have it delivered to you from one of these depots within five, 10 minutes. And that's one of the draws for customers there. Volume isn't a massive concern, it's expanding that geographical reach. So the operator themselves have a number of businesses that operate out of storage units. But one of the other big units is located in East London, which is a very similar operation to what is proposed here. Thank you. Mr. Greenheim. All I was going to say in relation to deliveries, most delivery operators base it on price as opposed to amount. So if you were, for argument's sake, buying a single bottle of beer and the value of the order will be £2, I doubt that would be fulfilled. If you were, say, ordering a bottle of whiskey that was going to cost £20, then that type of order is more likely to be accepted because it's based on the amount of money that's coming in, which then makes it worthwhile for the delivery operator to actually deliver it because of the percentages that apply. That makes sense. Thank you. Yeah, I suppose, following on from Councillor Justin's point, they're not going to be sending out 50p products, you know, every two minutes, because it just wouldn't make financial sense. So there will be, you know, there will be a limit to how, yeah, I suppose that it seems strange to be asking a business to not do very much trade, but there'll be, you know, there'll be a limit to how much, there won't be, there can't be armies of delivery guys outside the door waiting to deliver a 2p, you know, 2p orders, because it just wouldn't make sense. Is that the point, that's the point you're making, isn't it, I think? Yeah, and just looking on one of the, on the website, bottlebasket.co.uk, if you did want to have a look later on, you can see, so you've got the, I'm not sure which whiskey you drink, Councillor Justin, but we've got the Whistler PX, I love you, single malt Irish whiskey, 70 centiliters, got 59 five-star reviews, and that's £58.99, if you remind us to purchase that bottle. So, um, but I'm just looking for the minimum order from that website, and I can't see it, to be honest. Um, there were various selections of whiskey on this site, Ardbeg, Ardbeg Curry Becken, Scotch 89, Amrut Greedy Angels, 10-year-old, 694, Ardbeg 25-year-old, 2022, 849, I don't think there's going to be many people buying that one, one in the morning on a Friday, Saturday night, but that does give you an idea of what's on the website. In terms of what you were asking about, um, the minimum order, I think, if, if, or this premises, bearing in mind each can be tweaked, if you're reminded to grant the application, I'm sure a minimum order value could be placed as a condition on the license. Thank you, that's helpful. Um, any more questions from the counsellors to, uh, for the applicants? No, none I'm seeing, um, so, I mean, I, I guess, uh, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll come into this. It is, it is a bit of a strange one, because it does feel like, uh, uh, I know you say the business exists elsewhere, but it's a slightly new business model, a slightly new way of thinking, um, um, for, for, for us. And I suppose the, the understandable concern is with something new is that, that it's going to cause, it's going to cause problems through the night. It's, it's, it's, it's, this is stretching our normal, um, formal opening hours, et cetera, et cetera. Now, um, uh, you know, I'm, I'm, I guess I, I, I understand, I understand, I understand, I think I understand the model. Um, I suppose where, where residents could face, face problems are, you know, let's say it does, it's, it's doing incredibly well, which we hope, which we hope, which we hope, you know, we hope a new business would be doing. And there's a line of sort of delivery guys waiting at the, at the gates of Colvert House. So outside of your space, but at the gates of wherever they can be causing a problem there. Yeah. Which it does happen in other parts of the borough. It happens, it happens in other parts of the city where, because delivery drivers know, okay, there's going to be quite a lot of trade coming from this place later on. We'll just hang around here. We'll almost make this our little living room. Well, I, you know, um, and that in itself can cause issues. Now we've, we have, and I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm almost waiting for the legal advice to jump in because we have in the past, I think been told that you're not responsible for stuff that happens not right on your doorstep. Um, but I, I do, I do think that there is a response. There is a responsibility for the, the, the impact that the delivery drivers who are serving you have. Um, yeah. Sorry, just, yeah, just to address those points. So just one of the points around it being new and it's obviously relatively new, but this kind of convenience has exploded since COVID to an extent. And that's where the, the, the company have got quite used to dealing with the issues and recognising what benefits them and what doesn't and what conditions they can and can't work towards. And this is where you've obviously got these apps that operate 24 hours. You've got air kitchens that go to five in the morning. So I don't think there's any concerns and there certainly hasn't been any reviews undertaken of any of the other premises licenses in and around the country. If there are any issues, I'm retained by the operators to kind of get involved and try and mitigate any, any concerns. And this is the main concern with this one. So where they, where they're quite happy, sorry, going back to the business model. If, if the business gets, so the business will have their own delivery drivers that will be available to deliver from the premises. So if you, and it's the same way all the takeaways work. If you order directly, if you order from JustEat, from your local takeaway, that ticket will go through to the local takeaway who can then supply that order. So you'll pay a delivery charge, but that delivery charge will go directly to the operator. If the operator gets too busy, that's where you get those JustEat fellas hanging around that go, I'll pick up that order, I'll pick up that order. So the, the operator will maybe press reject on their tablet or say, arrange for delivery on their tablet, and then someone else will come and fulfill that order. And then that other person will receive the delivery fee as well. So as operators, where these guys operate is, they would prefer to retain that delivery fee. However, if it were to get too busy, they would then have to press on the tablet, someone come and collect. They wouldn't want to do that, and they'd rather manage it on their own. And the concern with this application specifically is that if they were to press, someone else fulfill the order. If that person then turns up on a non-electric scooter or a non-electric car, then they may fall foul of a condition that has been imposed on some of the other 24-hour licenses within that same industrial area. And that's their primary concern is they don't, they're asking you to grant the application and perhaps even put a condition that on, on, when they use their own delivery drivers, which they will intend to do most of the time, that they will use electric vehicles, but they don't want a condition that restricts any other delivery drivers, if that makes sense. And with the congregation of delivery drivers, the location of the premises is within the industrial estate, quite far down, abutted by train tracks. So, even if there were two or three hanging around, they would probably be hanging around for the other premises as well. And they would certainly be away from those residential premises that would have to go under the bridge and then through the, into the residential area. Thank you very much. That's, that's, that's really helpful. Councillor Marshall. So, just a question on that, um, could you not build in a condition that if somebody turns up, if a third party delivery driver turns up on a noisy moped or motorcycle, that you can just, the condition is that you'd have an electric vehicle. If you don't have the electric vehicle and you turn up for the delivery, we can't give you the business. So, is that, is that not a condition that, is that not a feasible condition to apply the work around this? Yeah, but the difficulty with it is, is, is you can't, you can, you can try your best to get delivery to turn up an electric vehicle, but you can't stipulate what vehicles they will turn up in. So, whilst you could turn one away, the next one might turn up, you might turn the next one away and you might turn the next one away. But I think the argument really is that at present, you've got a number of businesses operating from that industrial estate and at present, they only have conditions for delivery drivers between the hours of two and five. So, we're not saying we're entirely against those conditions being applied to the licence. It's just the concern is what they don't want is that those third parties that they may infrequently use, that they will have limited control over. And if inadvertently a member of staff from the premises handed over a bag to a person who walked around the corner and then got in a motorised vehicle, then potentially they're in breach of their licence. And they just want to be completely compliant. No, I can't understand. Yeah, it's clear. Yeah. Thank you. Councillors, any more before we go to... No, OK. So, now I now invite Mr. Newby Walker, who is making a representation. Yes, thank you, Chair. So, yeah, it seems like a lot of these, what I'm going to say has been sort of discussed amongst yourselves before I've had a chance to sort of state my case here. But, yes, the objection isn't just a blanket objection to the fact that this is beyond policy hours. It is an individual assessment of this particular application. So, the policy hours have been set at midnight in the week and 2 a.m. of the weekend. And that's done because we've conducted noise assessments of the borough and that's when background levels tend to fall away. So, and obviously, at the weekend, those background levels fall away a bit later than in the week. So, there is that slight difference between those hours. The applicant has talked about a lot of the other businesses that run out of that estate, but they are all conditioned to use electric vehicles after the hours of 2 a.m. And quick commerce is conditioned between 2 and 6 a.m. to use electric vehicles. Air kitchens also has a condition. Both of those are also grocery operators. They're slightly different business models. They do have alcohol as part of their sales. In fact, Air kitchens doesn't. Air kitchens is just purely late night refreshment. It's only a food license. And the concern with alcohol sales beyond those license hours, policy hours, is that if you're one of the few places where you can buy alcohol outside of those hours, that that will drive demand. And then, with that demand, comes with it noise. I understand, yes, the premises is in a quite remote situation, location, in the railway tracks, and in itself, it's not directly impacting on residents. But the entrance into the estate is a bottleneck. Everything has to come and go through that bottleneck. And that passes residential properties on the other side of that and Colvert Place, Colvert Road. And so, look, we do believe in the noise team that if you allow an alcohol premise to sell alcohol, whether it's a dark store or not, that will generate activity. If that's one of the few places where you can buy alcohol, and it's very easy to buy alcohol because it's a mail order option. And there's been some discussion about what they're selling, but it's never been made clear to me. Whether you can buy a six-pack of beer or high-end whiskey, probably quite different sales volumes. But where we're talking fairly minimal orders, just as the way you can go buy McDonald's for a Deliveroo, we're not talking about huge values here, potentially, I don't believe. And what we're trying to do in the noise team is protect residents from the increasing of noise outside of the hours of in policy. We don't – where premises go beyond that policy, they do need to show that they've considered those impacts. And that's why other operators have agreed this condition, which, unfortunately, I understand for their business model that they – you know, you can't guarantee the third-party operations. But that is part of the – you know, what needs to be considered by the business. I mean, it's great if they've got their own operators, and ideally, they would use only their own operations, their own delivery company, where they can guarantee those electric vehicles. But because they can't do it, it doesn't mean that we should allow them to not do it, I don't believe. You know, the other mention is the lack of complaints. Well, I think it's very hard for any resident in that area to attribute the increase of traffic through the area to any particular premise. It would be very hard to lodge a complaint as to even know who's the cause. But there is a clear, a logical indication that if you increase traffic in that area because you allow businesses to operate beyond the policy hours, that you will cause a noise impact. The scale of that noise impact can't really be understood until it's, you know, until it's fully in effect. But it is a logical conclusion to say that if you've got one place in the borough that you can buy alcohol after 2 a.m., that that is going to drive demand and that that demand will bring with it noise from delivery vehicles, which the applicant is saying they can't control fully because it's the use of third parties. Although other operators have agreed those conditions. So I believe the policy should be followed here, really. I can concede that the midnight restriction in the week do have a lot of those premises are food premises that operate until 2 a.m. 2 a.m. is a very standard operation for late night refreshment. So there's perhaps an argument here to say after 2 a.m. This becomes sensitive. And that, again, is reflected in the conditions that are on the existing operators, operators there. But the applicant never really tried to negotiate this with me. I did suggest electric vehicles and was simply told that they wanted to go for 24 hours and weren't able to agree that condition. So it's up to the committee, obviously, to make that decision as to whether that condition should be applied, whether or not the business can meet it. But I think it would satisfy my concerns that if after 2 a.m. electric vehicles were conditioned for use of deliveries and where the operator is saying that midnight to 3 a.m. is their busiest time, well, I think that there's an argument to say, well, stick to the policy hours of 2 a.m. I don't think that's an unfair restriction on you if you were ideally seeking 3 a.m. I think the policies should still be followed in that regard. So I'm happy to answer any questions. But I do believe the policy should be followed here and where we're trying to be proactive here rather than reactive. I don't really want to be picking up complaints six months down the line when this business has become popular or other businesses have followed suit. And we've got an awful lot of traffic going through this area. The area that they come out onto is a very quiet, dead road. There's no other business there, really any other through traffic, other than to get to the industrial centre. It doesn't exit onto a main busy red route or thoroughfare. It is a quiet area other than for the fact that the demand of delivery riders into this estate now, where the vast majority of the operators cease at 2 a.m. and those that do go beyond that policy time, in fact, most ahead of that 2 a.m. cease. But those that do go beyond 2 a.m. do have the electric vehicle condition and have accepted that. Thank you very much. Councillors, questions? That's very clear. Thank you very much. Thank you. Councillor Justin? Yeah, I mean, this application would be much more straightforward if the applicant was delivering the goods himself. Then he would know that he was using electric vehicles throughout. And what we're asking to be considered here is random people from anywhere, from any website, phoning in and placing an order, and we have without any idea of who is actually going to make the collection and in what vehicle. And as such, I'm not interested in it. It's wrong. You know, if the applicant runs its own set of electric bikes, electric vehicles, it could cope with the conditions, and I'd be sure it would. But this open-ended 24-hour delivery by anyone, by absolutely anyone, in whatever vehicle they may turn up in, is not acceptable. Councillor, to point out to my, maybe I'm, and we'll come back to the applicant in a minute, but my understanding, it wasn't by anyone, it's by delivery Uber, just, it's by delivery drivers who are, it's not so, you know, No, the gentleman has explained that there are, there are feeder websites all using this, can use this site, you know, and that one, if they weren't able to fulfil the order, they would bat it off to another person. He said that, that he has no control over where the orders come from. Respectfully. Is that a question? Sorry, Dan. Yeah, respectfully, I think, Councillor, this is a licensing subcommittee hearing, and you've just dismissed it by saying you're not interested. This is a business that operates very, in almost an identical way to one right next to us, that already exists and operates outside of policy hours. Would I sit on planning, and the fact that next door has got a house that gets through planning is irrelevant. Let's talk about this application, not other people's. Sorry, Councillor, and, and, and Mr. Daly. Yeah, we'll try not to, to do cross-examining, but did you have a question, Councillor Justin, for, for, for, for Mr. Newby Walker? What the question is, how many people could potentially use the depot? How many different websites and organisations could potentially place, have their order placed and collected through this depot? That, that sounds like a question for the applicant. Do you have a question for, because we're, we're, at the moment, we're asking questions of the environmental health of our, of our noise team. Mr. Newby Walker, do you have any questions for him? No. Okay. I, I, I, I do then, and before, before we go back to, thank you, before we go back to the applicant. Um, so, um, yeah, I, I, some things I want, I want to be clear on, I guess, um, you've said that there are, um, other, other licence holders in the air, in, in the area who have this restriction on, on electric, uh, uh, pickup vehicles, um, which, unfortunately, this applicant, um, is, is resistant to, do you, do you, you might not know this, do you have any idea how they're able to decide which third party organisation turns up? How are they able to stick to these, um, restrictions, uh, do you think, or do you have no idea on that? Um, I, I, I don't have, uh, an idea. They, I mean, I believe they all still use third parties, or, I mean, none of them have their own, um, uh, their own delivery, uh, force, I believe, uh, again, I, to be honest, I, I don't know though. Quick, quick comments I, I know a little bit more about, um, um, because that, that, that application went to, to appeal, um, over this issue, um, and where, um, that condition still remained in place. It, it was softened slightly and, um, but, you know, they were still required to use, um, electric vehicles. I mean, potentially they don't make sales there, uh, they're using third parties, um, uh, or they are trying to ensure that the third parties will have a way of ensuring that the third parties, um, use electric vehicles, um, air kitchens, um, uh, don't really know too much about, to be honest. I mean, they're, but I would, I would stress that neither of these are identical businesses to, to the applicant. Um, quick commerce is groceries, uh, and alcohol and quick commerce would make a very big play over the fact that they are serving grocery items where the alcohol is a bit of an add-on to, uh, a shopping basket of goods. Um, and air kitchens is food only. So it's not, it's not an alcohol, um, premises. Um, and I think we can all have a little bit of logical assumption that the pursuit of alcohol at certain times, especially where it's not available in other locations, uh, and in other ways is a different driver of demand. Um, and so this is the only purely alcohol service that operates, is opposing to operate out of this, uh, out of this area. And, uh, and again, those that, and there are others that are well within policy. Um, there's a number of, um, uh, license holders in there that are within policy. It's only quick commerce and air kitchens that are, are beyond. And, and like I say, air kitchens and quick commerce, we're happy to agree to that, that condition. So, so if then, if, um, in, in, uh, on another timeline, if the applicant had said, okay, you know what, yeah, um, from two till six or whatever the, whatever the gap that it seems like the other license holders in that area have, uh, guaranteeing electric vehicles or whatever, if the applicant had agreed to that, would you still be opposing, uh, this application? Um, no, I've always made it clear that my representation is based on the concern of, uh, vehicle noise from those deliveries and, and, and, and a, a condition to minimize, uh, and mitigate those, those, the noise of delivery vehicles. And I've done a little bit of research and surveys in the area, uh, previously when I was dealing with quick commerce, I know there's a significant difference between an electric vehicle and a, and a motorized vehicle. I mean, you know, there are still some noises attached, but they, you know, it, it's a much more discreet, um, vehicle coming and going. Um, and if that was guaranteed that that would address my concerns on this matter. That's good to know. Thank you. Um, okay. Uh, if there are no more questions for, for, uh, Mr. Newby Walker from councillors, um, I'm going to go back to the applicant. Um, no more questions. Okay. So, so back to, back to the applicant now. So what, what, thank you. Um, and for, it's hard to hear stuff you disagree with without having, without sort of speaking up. I, I, I get it. Um, so this will be like, uh, uh, I, I, I sense, I sense that councillors might have some more questions for you. So I, I, I, I'm tempted to go through those, to be honest, before, before you wrap up, um, uh, am I right, councillors, um, do, do, do you have any more questions for the applicant? Anything else that you wanted to? I don't think so. Oh, you're okay, councillor Marshall. I'm fine, I'm fine. That's fine, I'm okay. Uh, councillor Justin, you're, you're okay? Yep, for now. Okay, wonderful. All right, so, so, I mean, I, I have been in that case, um, I mean, it feels like, um, one of the sticking points or a major sticking point is this electric vehicle thing, which you've, you know, you, you explained why that would be difficult for, for you. And it, to be honest, when you described it, it sounded very logical. Oh, that, that does seem to make sense. It seems unfair. Um, what, do you have any response to the argument that the other license holders in that area, who you pointed out, you know, they go through the night, but they do have this restriction on, and they seem able to keep to it. Do you, do you have any, uh, comment on that? I've got, I've got no comment. I mean, quick commerce operate under the brand called Zap, which is what you'll find online. You won't find quick commerce, you'll find Zap. Zap advertise a whole different range of products. And as do these guys, and they, they follow a very, very similar business model. So whilst they might make the argument, we sell groceries as do this operation as well. The, I wasn't aware it had gone to an appeal and I wasn't aware that the conditions had been softened down. The two businesses are very, very similar in the way they operate. Um, there isn't a huge discernible difference between the two. Just going through the list of 24 hour licenses in and around the area that they have got. Um, I'm, I'm not great in it. You can probably hear from my accent, London geography is not my strong point, but I can't have an idea. So they've got Bromley, uh, Greenwich, Lambeth, Mitchum, Tower Hamlets. It's going a little bit further there. Baker Street's a little bit further up in, in the city there. So they do operate these businesses and without these conditions on them. And I do appreciate that it could potentially cause an issue, but actually there's no specific evidence to say that it has done, nor that it has done from the business. But in, in, in answer to your question, Councillor, as to the, you know, the discussions that we could have had with Mr. Newby Walker. I think where the reason we're here is to kind of make the case to yourselves that what they don't want to do is inadvertently just make a sale that they, they want to, you know, express to yourselves as the committee that they, they will operate electric vehicles through their own drivers. And it's more profitable to do so because you got full control over it, but it is really just having that control. Some of the businesses operate these sort of premises and, uh, as an independent consultant, I've done licenses for other types of premises. And that might be single operators. These guys are, are, they've got a considerable number of premises all across London, Sheffield, Nottingham, all across the country. The, the intention and to bring it towards the committee was to hopefully be able to use third party deliveries from this premises. If you were minded to grant the application and, you know, you thought, okay, well, the president has been set and quick commerce have that condition around electric vehicles from the premises, then obviously it is your wants as a, as a licensing subcommittee, what they would likely do is then fulfill that order potentially from a separate depot. I mean, one of the aspects of, of this premises compared to the other premises is that it will act as a storage hub. So alongside the premises and tower hamlets, which is located in the arches, they're big secure units that will be able to store a lot more stock that would then get distributed as and when needed to be. But that's obviously not a licensable activity in that consideration. Okay. So, so, so, um, that, that, that's helpful. Yeah. I'm just trying to, it's, it's useful for us when we go off and have our conversations if we think, okay, well, they felt like there could be some movement on that, or there could be some movement on this. Um, I, I think now, unless, unless there are any other questions for my colleagues, um, I think it's fair to give you like a minute or two to just sort of wrap up because there have been various bits and pieces that suggested, and you might feel like you haven't had a chance to, to answer everything. But before we do that, I'm looking around the room, making sure I'm not missing any hands. Yes, I'm not. Okay. Um, yeah. Would you like to, you might feel that everything's been answered and that's perfectly, you know, nothing wrong with brevity, but if you, if you choose to, you have a, you have a minute to, to wrap up your case. Thank you. Just to sum up, I think these are experienced operators. They operate a similar business model to the other ones within the area. They've proven by having a number of licences in and around London that have never been reviewed or haven't had any issues that they can operate in a responsible manner. We would ask you respectfully to grant the application as submitted. If you were reminded to grant the application, perhaps to add in a condition similar to Mr. Newby Walker's around any deliveries made from the premises by the operator should use electric vehicles. Wonderful. Okay. That's, that's really helpful. Um, I think now that wraps up this part of the meeting. And, um, yeah, that now, oh, sorry, chair. So sorry to interrupt. Um, could we just check if Mr. Newby Walker has any closing remarks he'd like to make as a representation? Apologies. I'm not sure that we've covered that. I'm so sorry, Mr. Newby Walker. Yeah. No, thanks. I usually go first, I think, on the closing comment. Um, but yeah, thanks for remembering me. Um, yeah, no, I think I've, I've, I've said my piece and I think if they are willing to offer a condition on the electric vehicles that, that, that resolves my, my concerns here. Um, but yeah, otherwise I'll just reiterate, I'm, I'm not here just to defend the policy blindly, but, um, there is an impact when businesses go beyond that policy and that's why we look for additional conditions. Uh, I think Mr. Green, I mentioned that right at the, at the start, um, look at for additional conditions to ensure that operations outside of those normal policy hours are, are appropriate. Thank you. Thank you very much. That's, that's, that's very helpful. Um, okay. So, so now, now that concludes, uh, uh, the first, uh, where am I? Uh, yeah, now that concludes the first applications discussion at the public part of the meeting, um, after we've concluded the second application, uh, we'll retire to a separate room and, and where we'll make our decision, uh, the decision, the reasons, any legal guidance that we've had, uh, will be, uh, will be supplied to you, um, with any information about rights of appeal within five working days. But I thank you, uh, Mr. Daly for, for your time and Mr. Newby Walker. Um, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. I just quickly need to step away for one moment, Chair. I'll be back in a moment. Yeah. Okay. Um, Becky, who, who do we have, uh, ah, I'm seeing the new people here. Who do we have? We do. So, yeah. So we have, um, Belinda from the, from the Met Police and the Met Police representation, Geoffrey Chew, and then we have Mr. Mohamed from J. Proofy Solicitors, and he's representing the license holder for this next hearing. Wonderful. Thank you very much. Okay. Uh, uh, welcome both. We're, we're, we're just waiting, uh, uh, just giving a, uh, uh, a slight comfort break. Apologies. I had a, somebody, uh, ring the doorbell. Uh, eight o'clock in the evening. Never mind. Was it a delivery driver on an electric bike, I wonder? No, it was actually somebody collecting a package. Um, they may have been going off on an electric bike, though. That's good to hear. Good to hear. Okay. Um, are we red? Can I, can I carry straight on or do I need to do anything else? I can carry straight on, I think. You can, yeah. Thank you. Uh, okay. So we'll now be considering agenda item, item four, the application relating to Elam Enterprise. Um, which I don't have. Yes, I do. Um, excuse me. Sorry. Um, I was just, so does this meeting need to be held in, in private? That's correct. So we just need to read out the, the wording for, to exclude, exclude the, um, press and the, uh, public. Okay. Okay. So before we, I understand. Sorry, I got confused there. Before we move to the next application for consideration at tonight's meeting, I've been advised that a request, a request has been, uh, received for the meeting to be held in closed session as the application relates to ongoing, an ongoing police investigation. I will ask the applicant, the license holder, if they agree to the meeting being held in closed session, uh, which I believe they already have. Yeah. Thank you. Uh, I now formally moved, uh, moved to a vote to ask members of the license committee if they agree to exclude the press and the public for item four of the agenda, because it's likely to let the exempt information under regulation 14 of the license in act 2003. And as described in paragraphs one and seven and part one of the schedule 12, a, of the local government act 1972 would disclose to them if they were present. And it is considered that in all circumstances of the case, the public interest in maintaining, uh, public, public, public interest in maintaining the exemption outweighs the public interest in the disclosure of the information. Um, do you vote yes on that, fellow councillors? Thank you. Thank you. Um, if you can just bear with me, Chair, I'll confirm when the webcast has stopped. Thank you. Thank you.