Transcript
Good evening, everyone, fellow councillors, honoured guests, welcome to the annual general meeting of the council.
The first business of the annual meeting is to elect the mayor for the ensuing year. May I have, oh, no, we haven't gone on, sorry, I'm sorry, I'm getting it wrong. There you go. Sorry. Yeah.
Thank you. That's the mayor's chaplain, please, to lead us in prayer. Thank you. I'm getting ahead of myself.
The first business of the annual meeting is to elect the mayor for the ensuing year. May I have a proposition, please? I am not a candidate.
Dorian.
Dorian.
Dorian.
Thank you, Madam Mayor. Honoured guests, elected members, ladies and gentlemen. I stand this evening to propose Councillor Barry Pierpoint as the next Worshipful the Mayor of Boston.
Barry was born in Nottingham many years ago. He won't tell me what year, but he did say he was very young when he was born.
And after an education in the city, he graduated from Nottingham Trent University in 1974 with a degree in business.
His early career then laid the groundwork for his later success in sports and business consultancy.
Barry joined Leicester City Football Club in 1991 as the marketing director and was promoted to chief executive within two years.
During his tenure, he played a pivotal role in transforming the club from a £2 million loss-making organisation to a £24 million turnover in just eight years.
Some key achievements under his leadership included the club's flotation on the stock market, the development of the Carling Stand in 1994 and the establishment of Fox Leisure, the club's in-house kit manufacturing brand.
And by 1999, Barry was ready to move on to Pastures New and left the club.
After leaving Leicester City, Barry held executive roles at several other football clubs.
In Portsmouth Football Club from 2000 to 2001, he served as chief exec and then he moved on to Bradford City Football Club as interim chief executive and he restructured that company, overseeing the development and launch of a new £9 million stand.
But one year after that, Barry acted as the chief exec for a consortium aiming to take over Boston United.
And when that didn't come to fruition, he became the part-time chief exec at Grantham Town in a voluntary capacity.
But in that time, he managed to transform the club's fortunes and emphasise community engagement and commercial development once again.
He finished in Kingsland Town Football Club in 22 when he took on the role of chief executive, aiming to rebuild the club following their relegation that year and once again managed to strengthen their community relations.
Beyond football, Barry is the managing partner and founder member of BP Management and Marketing Services, which is a consultancy specialising in business turnaround and growth strategies.
He was also a director and part owner of Morgan Lawrence Publishing Services Limited, and that focused on producing autobiographies of former professional book players and managers.
In 2020, he authored his biography called Minding My Own Football Businesses, detailing his experiences at Leicester City.
And it's a very interesting read.
If you've not read it yet, do pick up a copy.
I'm sure you've got some spare, Barry.
Fanning over more than the last 20 years, Barry's contributions have been acknowledged through various awards.
He was the DHL Boss of the Year in 1998.
He was the Ernst & Young Turnaround Entrepreneur of the Year in 1999.
And he was a finalist in Leicestershire's Business Personality of the Year in 2005, all acknowledged for his business achievements.
And then in 22, 2022 rather, Nottingham Trent University honoured him as an outstanding alumni fellow.
And to this day, he undertakes coaching for graduate students on the Business Leaders and Management course at universities.
His political life started here in Boston when he became the elected member for Old Lincoln Wrangell in 2015, when he stood under the UKIP banner.
But he left the party shortly after the election.
And not long after, he became an independent, which is where Barry's heart has lain ever since.
His political efforts reflect a commitment to pragmatic community focused governance, leveraging his leadership experience to address local challenges.
Barry has served as a committee member on Audit and Governance, Planning, Licensing and Overview and Scrutiny.
And since 2023, he's been a very proactive chairman of both the Boston Town Area Committee and our Audit and Governance Committee.
Barry is an extremely kind and helpful counsellor.
And I know he's been a great asset to this year's mayor in her fundraising aspirations, organising his special evenings of quizzes, raffles and bingo.
And none of us will ever look at a salami quite the same ever again.
His laugh is entirely infectious and you can very often hear him before you see him coming down the corridor.
He's been a great source of knowledge and wisdom to many of us in this chamber.
And I know that he will put the stamp of his own personality very clearly on the office of mayor.
Madam Mayor. For the last time, Madam Mayor.
It is my great honour and privilege to recommend to Council that we elect Councillor Barry Pierpoint as the 490th the Worshipful the Mayor of Boston.
Thank you, Madam Mayor.
Thank you, Councillor Dorian.
Do we have a seconder, please?
Thank you, Councillor Broughton.
Thank you, Madam Mayor.
I'm delighted to second Councillor Pierpoint for the Worshipful Mayor of Boston.
Over the several years I've known Barry or some councillors know him, especially Councillor Martin Buzzer.
He always has a smile on his face and time for everyone.
Nothing is too much trouble, whether you're the cleaner or the CEO.
Everyone is treated the same as a person who he treats as he would wish to be threat himself.
Many a time you can walk past a room and know Barry is in there without seeing him, with his very distinctive laugh emanating from it somewhere.
Something he does often and always lights up a room.
Barry has been very approachable in assisting in helping new councillors on all sides of this chamber find their feet.
And I, for one, have had many a long chat with him, learning from his vast knowledge of business, corporations and governance and how to better myself and others.
As the leader has touched on, Barry has been involved with several major football teams who, after this season, I'm sure would have wished Barry was still involved with him.
Barry is a mentor to undergraduates at various universities, as the leader has said.
Something that I and other councillors have had the pleasure of learning from for free.
And I can honestly say he always encourages and offers advice to everyone I know, regardless of ability, and makes them better and more confident in their work and themselves.
Barry is a brilliant organiser and planner, and I'm sure many of you will testify from his events he organises, including our outgoing mayor,
who only last week had a mayor's charity event organised by him, and the pictures show what a great fun night it was.
Madam Mayor, you have been a tremendous ambassador for our town this year, and I'm sure councillor Pierpoint will take the reins for the next 12 months,
becoming the 490th Mayor of Boston, and will put his own stamp on this role.
Something I am looking forward to seeing, and I am sure will make, as have you Madam Mayor, a tremendous mayor for the coming year,
and help promote Boston, its people, communities and businesses in doing so.
I would like to say that being elected as a councillor has introduced me to many new people and acquaintances,
and Barry is one who I am very happy to call a good friend and colleague, and I wish him every success in his mayoral year. Thank you.
Thank you Councillor Broughton for those kind words too. Does anyone else wish to speak? Are there any further propositions?
Thank you, then we will now move to the vote. All those in favour?
I think we can say that's unanimous. Thank you.
Apologies. Right. I'd like all you to take your seats now, please. Thank you.
I will now read and sign the Statutory Declaration of Acceptance of Office.
I, Barry Pierre Point, having been elected to the Office of Mayor, hereby declare that I take the office upon myself,
and will duly and faithfully fulfil the duties of it according to the best of my judgement and ability.
Thank you. Thank you, Rob. I will now ask Mrs Pamela Love to come forward to receive the Mayorist's Badge of Office.
That's a nice presentation of flowers there for you. Well done.
Right, I've got to accept this position now, so I've got a few words to say, if I can find them.
Ladies and gentlemen.
Esteemed councillors, distinguished guests and officers.
Firstly, may I thank most sincerely Councillor Ann Dorian and Councillor Dale Broughton for being my proposed and seconder for this very honoured position.
Thank you to you both. This means so much to me. Thank you.
It is with great humility and pride that I stand before you today, privileged and honoured to be appointed as the 490th Mayor of Boston for our wonderful town and borough.
I'd like to express my deepest gratitude to each and every one of you here today for entrusting me with this great responsibility.
It's a privilege and a duty that I take to heart as I'm deeply committed with passion, dedication, respect and integrity to carry out my entrusted mayoral duties for this coming year.
I want to thank my predecessor Councillor Helen Staples for her service, dedication and hard work during the past 12 months in which she's been truly amazing will be such a very odd act to follow.
Thank you, Helen. Thank you.
Helen has laid a very strong community foundation and I'll build upon that with the same passion, commitment and stamina.
I'd like to thank also the Deputy Mayor Councillor Susan Welbury who's been her right hand person for all the hard work and fundraising and the service you've done to assist the Mayor in her role.
Thank you, Susan.
I'd also like to thank the Lady Mayoress Jennifer Oglesby as well for supporting the Mayor and all the work that you've done.
It's been a great privilege to work with you and also to the Deputy Mayoress Jay Welbury.
Thank you, Jay, for what you've done as well assisting the Mayor.
What a great mayoral team they've been and I'm really proud to say that I've enjoyed working with all four of you in what you've done and what you've achieved.
Thank you.
I'd like to introduce you and welcome and thank my Lady Mayoress Pamela Love, who's taken on this huge role and responsibility.
I know as a relative that Pamela will be compassionate and committed to serving the people of Boston too.
She's a people person who works tirelessly and nothing is too much trouble for her.
She is visionary, dedicated and spend most of her working life helping others to improve their lives.
I couldn't have have selected a more dedicated, passionate and people person as Pam to be my Lady Mayoress.
Pam, I thank you for that. Thank you.
I thank you for the opportunity to join us to join us in a beautiful way of joining us in the city of Boston.
We will make a great Boston team.
Pam and I worked extremely hard to serve the people of Boston and represent the borough,
to continue to make Boston a place we can be all proud of now and in the years to come.
Boston is a town steeped in rich history, with a vibrant culture and a deep sense of community.
From the famous St Botholz Church to the bustling market square, our borough and town has long been a beacon of tradition and progress.
But what truly sets Boston apart is its people, hardworking, resilient and full of pride.
Together we have built a robust community that is stronger, cohesive and integrated
and I'm excited, eager and keen to work alongside all of you to continue shaping a brighter future for our town and borough.
As your Mayor, I will focus on fostering a spirit of unity, collaboration and community partnerships.
Our challenges may be many, but they are not insurmountable.
By working together, we can ensure that Boston remains a place where everyone has the opportunity to thrive,
where our heritage is celebrated, where our children can look forward to a prosperous future.
During my mayoral year, I will strive to be a voice for the people of Boston,
within the council, within our local businesses, our schools, neighbourhoods and the four corners of our borough.
I will work tirelessly to support initiatives that promote economic growth, improve public services
and make Boston a safer, more welcoming place for all.
But my vision for Boston goes beyond just policies and programmes.
It's about creating a town and borough where everyone feels heard, valued and connected.
It's about making sure that every resident, no matter their background or circumstances, has a chance to reach their full potential.
I'd like to take the opportunity to thank my family, relatives, friends and colleagues for their unwavering support and encouragement and belief in me.
Without them, this journey would not be possible.
And thank you all for your trust in me and I look forward to working with you all to make Boston an even better place for future generations.
Thank you.
Item B on the agenda is to elect a deputy mayor this evening and its election of a deputy mayor.
Sorry, yes.
I therefore formally move the councillor, Patsy Marsing, be appointed deputy mayor.
Sorry, I've got to do it.
I've got to do a proposal first.
I beg your pardon.
Sorry.
I'm going to bit myself in a twist.
Let me have a drink first.
I'm getting a bit thirsty.
Is there any gin in this?
Let me start again.
Right.
I want to elect a deputy mayor.
And I'm going to elect, I'd like to propose a councillor Marsing for the deputy mayor.
It is my wish that the council should elect councillor Patricia Marsing to be the deputy mayor for the ensuing year.
Ladies and gentlemen, honourable councillors, distinguished guests and officers.
It is with great pride, respect and passion that I wish to propose councillor Marsing as my deputy mayor of our beloved town and borough of Boston.
We all know the role of a deputy mayor is one of immense responsibility, requiring not only dedication, hard work and commitment, but also deep passion for our people and communities that we serve.
I met councillor Marsing two years ago when she was elected to the Fenside ward where she lives.
I found her to be a person who wears the role of councillor on her sleeve.
It's in her blood, in her makeup, and she truly is dedicated to the people within her ward and the borough.
During some tremendous work, community work, she helps everyone from all ages and backgrounds daily, trying to improve their lives, making them feel appreciated as part of the community, wanted and heard as she's regularly seen in that area at all times.
Community caring, loving, enthusiastic, hard work and dedicated to her ward and its people.
That describes Patricia, a dedicated councillor through and through.
She has constantly demonstrated her qualities throughout her time in public life and has been a steadfast advocate for this town and borough to continue to improve the facilities, particularly available to those in Fenside.
Councillor Marsing is friendly, approachable, inspirational.
She listens and always places the needs of her residents first, and she works tirelessly to strengthen the connections between her residents, local organisations and the Council.
For all these reasons and more, it is with great pleasure and honour that I propose Councillor Marsing as Deputy Mayor of Boston, who will serve this town and borough with her utmost dedication and energy to contribute to the ongoing strengths and success of Boston and its people.
Together we will be a force to be reckoned with.
Boston will certainly gain from the strength of our team.
I therefore move that Councillor Marsing will be appointed Deputy Mayor to hold office until the next annual meeting of the Council.
May I have a seconder, please?
Mr Mayor, it gives me great pleasure to second that proposal.
I've known Patsy a short time, but I've been impressed by a selflessness, a dedication, not only to award members, but to the people of Boston, not to mention a wicked sense of humour, and I have got the photographs to prove it.
I know she will serve this role with dedication and passion and will make an excellent Deputy Mayor. Therefore, I have pleasure in moving the proposal. Thank you.
Are we all agreed for Councillor Marsing?
Thank you.
So if I can ask Councillor Marsing to come forward, please.
I'd like to thank the Council for the lovely presentation of flowers as well. It's very kind of you and much appreciated. Thank you.
We now need to receive apologies for absence and I'm going to ask our Chief Executive.
Thank you, Mr Mayor. We have three apologies this evening from Councillors Bedford, Creswell and Drayton. Thank you.
Thank you, Rob.
I will now ask Councillor Sarah Sharp to propose a vote of thanks to the retiring Mayor, Councillor Helen Staples. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr Mayor. It is both an honour and a privilege to offer this vote of thanks to our retiring Mayor, Councillor Helen Staples.
Helen, on behalf of everyone here this evening, and indeed I'm sure all those you've met throughout your mayoral year, we offer our sincerest thanks for your unwavering dedication to Boston and its people.
As a lifelong and proud Bostonian, your love for our historic town shines through, not just in your admiration for its buildings and heritage, but in your deep respect and care for the people who call it home.
With your wonderful Mayoress Jen by your side, you've represented Boston with warmth, commitment and heartfelt sincerity.
Jen, your support throughout the year has been truly invaluable. You've given your time, energy and enthusiasm without hesitation, attending events, engaging with the community and standing proudly alongside Helen through every moment of her mayoral year.
Thank you. Thank you for your dedication and for being such a genuine ambassador for our borough.
From countless local events to significant and moving moments, such as the reinterment of Matthew Flinders, made unforgettable by the stunning performance of Bring Him Home by the Coastal and Biona Choirs.
To your visit to RAF Coningsby and that surprise typhoon fly past, this year has been filled with meaning, memory and purpose.
At the heart of everything you've done has been people. The time and attention you've given to so many community organisations, your willingness to listen, to celebrate their work and to simply be present has meant the world to them.
You've opened the doors of the municipal buildings to so many school children, giving them the opportunity to learn about local democracy and the rich history behind our civic regalia, thanks in no small part to our knowledgeable officer Andy Lamming.
Those visits will leave a lasting impression and help inspire a future generation to feel proud of Boston.
You've also recognised the dedication of council officers, community groups and volunteers, welcoming them in with tea and cake and offering them your heartfelt thanks.
These meaningful gestures have lifted spirits and strengthened community bonds.
Your ability to connect, not just as mayor but as a friend and true community leader, has had a real and lasting impact across generations, across communities and across all corners of the borough.
Throughout the year you've worked tirelessly to raise funds for your chosen charities Boston Gateway, Framework Homeless and Floating Support Team and Local Hope.
From your fundraising of the evening at the Rugby Club to the afternoon tea at Blanky Memorial Hall to last that is fashion show at the Guildhall to name just a few.
Your calendar has been full and your efforts extraordinary and all the while you've remained the dedicated and exceptional counsellor we have always known.
Supporting residents, championing causes and encouraging us to keep moving Boston forward.
Helen, we're incredibly proud of you.
Thank you for a year of wholehearted service, for your generosity of spirit and for your unwavering pride in our town.
Thank you.
I can vouch for the cake.
May I have a seconder please?
Thank you Mr Mayor, I can get used to calling you Mr Mayor.
Yeah, I would wholeheartedly like to say thank you to Councillor Sharp.
I'm delighted as well to hear of her support and vote of thanks to Helen.
From a personal experience looking back over the year, I've accompanied Helen like many of my colleagues to various events.
She has proved that she's very versatile.
She can put her chain on in the toilet.
Not that I saw her, but she told me.
Well actually Jen told me.
Yeah, I've seen her at Old Leak School Library.
Also seen her at the Stump, where the people do absolutely adore her.
I've seen her at the Fair, not on the Dodgerums like Jen with Brother David though.
I've also seen her at my hub in Old Leak and at Fishtoft.
And also she's been to many coffee mornings.
She helps the homeless and encourages the people.
She's met our outreach team.
Her many fundraising activities as well.
And also I remember her meeting various people and children in the chamber.
My favourite and our most common theme has been our love of cake and chatting.
Hasn't it Helen?
Yeah.
So I look forward with the new Mayor to lots of chatting and cake.
So also by her side has been Jen and Suzanne and Jade.
So I would like to say a big thank you.
And I'm sure all of you would as well as we support Councillor Sharp.
But also to Helen, who's a wonderful friend and a marvellous Councillor colleague.
Thank you, Helen.
Thank you, Councillor Baxter.
Right, I'm now going to do a presentation of the Mayor's badge.
Is that right?
Oh, sorry.
Are we all agreed of the two proposals?
Second, are you okay?
Thank you.
Apologies, I'm jumping the gun again.
Now I'm going to do a presentation to the Mayor about a retiring badge and plaque.
So that's a nice badge there for the retiring Mayor.
Oh, sorry.
Now I'm going to do a presentation to the Mayor's.
Okay, no.
There's one here.
Oh.
You've got to do it.
Not me.
I think my husband might say I don't need a microphone.
But anyway, here we are.
Mr Mayor, honoured guests.
It's my privilege to present this past Mayoress's badge and plaque to Jennifer Oglesbury or Jen, as I call her.
She's been an absolute rock to me throughout my mayoral year.
She's been at every function.
She's smiled.
She's met people with grace.
She's been amazing.
And I stupidly fell and fractured my shoulder in January.
She chauffeured me around.
And nothing, just nothing has been too much trouble for her.
Jen has a heart of gold and she's really enriched the role of Mayoress.
She's worked so hard and I just want to thank her from the bottom of my heart for all she's done.
So Jen, if you'd like to come forward and receive your plaque.
And your badge.
Jen.
I would like to respond to the vote of thanks given to me by Councillor Sarah Sharp.
What can I say? You've reduced me to tears, Sarah.
You really have.
It's absolutely beautiful.
Thank you so much for all the kind things you said.
It's been an absolute joy to work alongside Sarah and David Scoot in Fishtoff Ward.
Three colleagues.
We get along so well together.
There's never been a cross word between us.
We just gel.
We work for the benefit of our people in our ward.
It's been a tough year for us.
We've had a few hiccups this year, but we stick together and we're a team.
We're team Fishtoff.
And they've both been so supportive to me.
I'm just so grateful to the support that I've received from everybody.
But Sarah and David, thank you.
And thank you so much, Sarah.
Those words were really beautiful.
And thank you, John.
And I'm sure wherever we are, John, I shall muster up some cake.
Thank you, Helen.
Can I have a second, please, for the Deputy Retiring Deputy Mayor.
Thank you, Mr Mayor.
I would like to wholeheartedly second Councillor Staples' vote of thanks to our retiring Deputy Mayor Councillor Suzanne Welbury.
Suzanne, thank you for your steadfast and dedicated support to our retiring Mayor and Mayoress throughout the past year.
Your commitment to your role as Deputy Mayor has been clear to see.
And I know your presence has been a reassuring and valuable support to them both.
I would like to extend special thanks to your daughter, Jade, who served admirably as your Deputy Mayoress.
Together, you have not only represented the borough with warmth and sincerity, but also brought enthusiasm and dedication to every event engagement you have attended.
In addition to your duties as Deputy Mayor, you've continued to be a hardworking, committed councillor.
Tireless is supporting your own community just as you've always done.
It's a testament to your energy and passion for public service that you've balanced both roles with such effectiveness.
Your tireless efforts in organising and supporting the Mayor's charity events have also been deeply appreciated.
These occasions have not only been enjoyable and well received by the community,
they've also successfully raised the profile of three very important charities.
In doing so, you have made excellent use of some of our town's beautiful buildings,
helping to showcase them as venues of which we can all be proud.
Thank you once again for everything you've contributed over the past year.
It has been truly valued.
Sorry about that, folks.
I'm now going to ask the retiring Mayor, Councillor Helen Saples, to move a vote of thanks to the retiring Deputy Mayor.
And you're going to do a presentation as well, yeah.
On a guest, ladies and gentlemen, Mr Mayor.
When choosing my Deputy Mayor, Suzanne was the obvious choice.
Because of her dedication and commitment to the ward she represents of Swineshead,
I had witnessed what a hard-working community-minded person she is.
So she seemed the obvious choice to me because we're both very similar in how we feel about our communities.
And so she's worked so hard and tirelessly this year for me.
And not only as my Deputy Mayor, but in her helping with the charity fundraising,
it's not an easy job to raise money for charity these days when money isn't a plenty.
But somehow, Suzanne has the touch.
And together, we've managed to raise, I think, quite a lot of money for our chosen charities.
And I'm so grateful to Suzanne, as I am to Jade, her daughter, as Deputy Mayoress.
We've been a good team. It's been an all-girl team.
And I think that's been wonderful.
Quite a while since the borough's had an all-girl team.
So I really would like to propose a vote of thanks to Suzanne for her time as Deputy Mayor.
She's been absolutely wonderful.
Suzanne, thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Are we all agreed? Thank you.
Apologies. I'm now going to ask the Deputy Mayor to respond to the vote of thanks. Thank you.
Thank you, Mayor. Thank you, Councillors. Thank you, esteemed guests.
Well, wow. What a year. We've had a fantastic time.
As Helen said, it's been an all-girls team and we've gone everywhere and done everything.
It's been an eye-opener for me because I'm a new Councillor.
I've only been a Councillor for two years.
I did not realise what was involved with this role, nor the role of Deputy Mayor.
But with Helen's lead, it's shown me the way.
Thank you, Sarah, for those kind words. Thank you, Helen, for your kind words.
Thank you, Jen and to Jade.
And we'll do it all again for Barry next year.
Thank you. Thank you very much.
You won't believe I've been writing this twice today, would you?
I'd still get it wrong.
It just goes to show I'm only human.
And now for the preliminary items.
To receive the declaration of interest from members of the Council.
We're going to go on to the agenda item APAC, declarations of interest.
I'll ask the Chief Executive to speak.
Yes, thank you, Mr Mayor.
May I inquire whether any members wish to declare any interest in respect of tonight's agenda?
Thank you.
There are none, Mr Mayor.
Thank you.
Have I the Council's permission to sign the minutes of the meeting of the Council held on the 3rd of March 2025?
Thank you.
What a performance.
I have to sign each corner of each bottom of the page and then sign up in the back.
That's why it took so long.
My golly, I never knew that.
Do you receive any communication, if any, from the Mayor and Chief Executive?
Yes, there are none, Mr Mayor.
Thank you.
Thank you, Rob.
Agenda items.
I'm on part 2 now of the agenda items.
Scrutiny arrangements.
We'll now move on to the agenda items for this evening.
The first being the Scrutiny Arrangements report, which starts on page 19 of the agenda.
Can I ask Councillor Gleeson to introduce the report, please?
Yes, that's fine.
When I was re-elected back onto the Council, I was surprised that we still were following the same arrangements we had in 2011.
I was impressed with the way that Scrutiny was working in general, and the new members took on the role of Scrutiny very quickly.
But it became apparent to me that there were two areas we weren't pursuing as well as we should.
And they were pre-scrutiny, that is, looking at policy of the executive having development, and then also enabling members to develop their own policy.
One of the roles of Scrutiny is to allow members to do through task and finish groups and other systems to actually develop policy.
And so I was becoming very concerned about that, and so I thought we needed really to start looking at it.
Then, with the change in local government that's proposed, LGR, I was really concerned that we needed to have our Scrutiny committee at its very best.
Because we need to ensure that the Putative Town Council for Boston and our parishes, particularly our larger parishes, have as much power delegated down to them from the new Unitary Authority.
Because what is being happening with the LGR is it is a power grab.
We are losing local democracy in Boston, and unless we bolster our town and parish, we won't have any say in the new structures.
And so I thought maybe we needed to look at how we allocate work between the committees.
So in early February, I emailed the chair of EMP and suggested that we had a joint scrutiny looking into the issue of, initially this was to be looking at how we structured our work.
The chair of EMP replied that she felt with only two years to go, she didn't see the point.
So I then sent a detailed reply with my concern and said that I would pursue it with my own committee unless she wanted to join.
And then I asked Section 151 officer to do a report on the structure and out of that came a lot of suggestions.
And then I asked some of them, some of them a bit like I was starting with, which was the reallocation of the workload, but it really highlighted that we need a slightly different structure.
A more active meeting more regularly scrutiny committee where we don't divide the work because one of the other issues is we've ended up with a lot of duplication of work between the two committees.
The.
And I'd like.
If have, I think, the thought of bene time with.
splitting of reports and so quite often a report that should have really been going to cnc
has gone to emp and a report that should go to emp has gone to um cnc in fact if you look at the cnc
agenda at the end of this month majority reports on them actually are reports that were for emp
and so reading the very detailed report done by our officers actually which was really good
i became convinced that we needed to have a single committee larger and meeting more regularly
that would enable us to continue work quicker to manage task and finish quicker there would be
counselors who are not on scrutiny anymore who would be available to be on task and finish groups so in
the end i became convinced that we needed a
a single committee at cnc scrutiny of that report members suggested that we have an increased
membership so the membership is going to 15 or is proposed at 15 and we also
suggested a six month review to make sure it was meeting what was or is promised by the new structure
the new structure of the new structure but really i think we owe it to the people of boston to ensure
that we have the most robust the remnants of local government in the town
else as we know you're going to have six or seven councillors representing the whole of the borough
the new structure we're not going to have a say historically we have been left aside by lincolnshire
time and time again and this new structure will be no different so i move the proposal thank you
you move to propose okay thank you is there a seconder would you like to reserve your right to speak
one second yep well i'll second it uh thank you mr mayor thank you council woodliffe and reserve the
right to speak noted
are there any speakers on this item
that's woodliffe uh thank you mr mayor um well i'm going to pick out what it says in the report
actually and it says that um a copy of the report is attached to appendix one members consider the
report and provide the following feedback this is coming from members the current arrangements were
deemed outdated there was significant duplication of effort in sending reports to both committees
which was inefficient for both officers and members and we've got to consider the officer time
involved that you've got two committees you're doubling up around the time the officer having
to spend and we are in a situation where to make the very best of our officer time reports are being
submitted to the incorrect committee due to misalignment meeting dates and deadlines task and
finish groups should adopt a more proactive and progressive approach led by a strong chairman
these groups did not have to be restricted to a single committee membership
a single committee would have the capacity to scrutinize all matters comprehensively
consolidating one committee would lead to a cost savings very important to the present time and
it suggests there'll be a single more robust committee with increased membership which will
meet more regularly because the new committee would have 15 members as opposed to 11. the format and
clarity of submitted reports will be improved it would be improved and the majority of members express
a preference for a single folks committee which will meet more regularly it i think it's generally
true that the members themselves see the importance of this change and i support it thank you mr mayor
thank you council do you have any more speakers
council ryan
thank you mr mayor i am disappointed with how this paper has been delivered as are the members of this
council who have contacted me personally and i do not mean members of my group
myself and council of gleason had a conversation on february the 10th
council of gleason was keen to merge the two committees
my comment at that time was why change the format now
when within two to three years we will become unitary and it will all change then
as you all are aware we have two scrutiny committees
so why weren't both committees given this paper to pass views on
why did it only go to cnc i have been chair of emp for the last two years
this report talks of significant duplication of reports being sent to both committee
i have not seen this and reports being sent to incorrect committees
i have not had any incorrect reports it states task and finish groups should adopt a more proactive
and progressive approach led by a strong chairman read into that what you wish but actually i think
it is a rather harsh comment on past members contributions the report states that the format
and clarity of submitted reports were improving so was there an issue with reports that were being
delivered to members we've had delays on reports being ready so the item has had to be pushed back in
our work program that will still happen because of officers workloads
i take great exception to councillor gleason's comments on may the 8th at the cnc meeting
at no point did councillor gleason come back to me me with some of his reasons such as the meeting
convened for the 8th of may but commented that i still had no desire desire to go forward on this item
i can assure you that conversation never happened and i have i'm appalled that i have not been seen
to be interested might i suggest councillor gleason the next time you would like all members to attend
a scrutiny meeting why not send them a personal email setting out your proposals you may find then
more members would attend not just six from the committee who then represent your proposal
before the committee are absent a report mentions column solidating to one committee would lead to
cost savings this is not about saving seven and a half thousand pounds this is all political
this council back in january awarded massive allowance increases way above what the irp had recommended
the leader had a 49 increase and now we have an extra portfolio holder costing ten thousand pounds
clearly the cabinet are struggling with their workload 2.2 of this report states the majority of members
expressed a preference for a single focus committee that would meet more regularly 10 members sit on cnc
they are the ones that have expressed their views are we suggesting emp were not focused when you
continue to look at the report that was delivered to cnc cnc 2.4 we had advantages and disadvantages of having
two committees it talks about potential overlap this did not happen at emp we were very fortunate that we
had a very experienced clerk guiding us when members put forward a proposal for emp work plan our clock would
say yes or no that needs to go to cnc and i thank her for all her hard work moving to one committee will not
take away any workload from officers but you're asking members to take on a greater workload the
committee will possibly consider 15 members and it is suggested they meet more frequently once a month
it will also require extra task and finish groups working alongside as and when required why change it if it isn't broke
i recall an experienced member of this council once saying to me scrutiny scrutiny committees are very powerful
and as chair you have the ability to scrutinize whatever you wish that is what scrutiny is set out to do
hold the council to account as emp chair that is what i have done
so well done councillor gleeson you're throwing me under the bus and your backhanded way of delivering
this paper to council has worked i suppose it's called politics but that will be the end of
scrutiny at boston borough council chairs should be opposition that are opposition may i take this
opportunity to personally thank councillor civikian will be my advice and all my committee for all their time
and efforts over the last two years we have achieved what it says on the tin we have been strong robust
proactive and progressive thank you all i will not be supporting this paper i do not think having one
scrutiny committee will follow the democratic process and will it actually deliver what it should deliver
and that is scrutiny thank you thank you council roylett um are there any more speakers on this item
counter noble
would you put your microphone on please
okay
need a microphone because it's been recorded it's also
thank you um thank you mr mayor um i like to call my own experience as a councillor previously for eight
years and uh in my opinion this proposed new committee of 50 members is too unwieldy if members
take time to read the papers as we hope they do there's plenty to talk about and scrutiny so these
meetings are going to go on for a very long time i have to say that i don't think it's a very balanced
paper either because what we have here the recommendations from the majority of members on on cnc but one
has to look in the appendix uh one of the original cnc document to to see the disadvantages and they're
listed here you know uh for example there's going to be less deep focus uh on specific issues there's
going to be less thorough scrutiny uh a single committee may struggle to deal with all the issues
because i can tell you from my experience there are plenty of issues for both committees to consider
whether it's emp looking at things like dog fouling and littering or it's or cnc looking at
financial matters so i think that that the the balance there's not been truly reflected in in
this paper so i i cannot support it as well i think my opinion is the the councillors need more
scrutiny not less we need uh we need uh really thorough scrutiny policies and procedures and proposals
and that can be done best by the two committee model so that's why i will not be supporting this
particular proposal thank you mr mayor thank you council noble anybody else want to speak on that
item council can 12.
thank you mr mayor i would just echo the comments um councillor noble and councillor rider have made
this will result in diminished scrutiny at the council and i think it really should be rejected tonight
by all councillors across the chamber thank you very much councillor dunning and ton dunning
thank you mr mayor if we preach for democracy and transparency i think it will be a bad move
and i think the amount of work will be huge not to mention and not to forget that the time and the
manpower which we need for that meetings may take a longer time to scrutinize every paper and every
agenda therefore i will vote against this one and we have to as i say to be democratic and have more
scrutiny in our hands thank you thank you counter danny any more speakers on the topic
that's adorable thank you mr mayor can we just clarify what the proposal was it is it to accept option
two on the paper option one option two thank you thank you category anybody else
thank you as there's nobody else councillor gleeson can i ask you to sum up please for me
thank you mr mayor um i hear what the other chair of emp says i did seek in early february to go down
the path of a joint scrutiny of this matter and it wasn't supported
initially i was just looking at a redistribution of our workload when i started looking at this
but i do it believe that option two is the way forward it will give us
better scrutiny we won't have issues like one thing being dealt with by emp say car parking but the
town center redevelopment or improvement is cnc we need a more holistic approach and we'll get that
we'll get that by a joint scrutiny so also just an aside an email was sent to every member before the 8th of
may by democratic services inviting them to the meeting so it wasn't a secret meeting
i assume the conservative members cnc had seen the papers um so this was an attempt to get as much
involvement by as many people in the way we govern but most importantly i do think we need to focus the
next two years on ensuring that boston has real representation locally or as much as we can keep
back and i think scrutiny will help with that because there'll be a lot of work for the executive
but we need a scrutiny to be developing policy and looking at the ways forward so i would like to support
option two thank you thank you councillor leeson may i remind all councillors uh the recommendations
you know voting on page 19 1 2 and 3 the recommendations there so if you're very clear in
your mind what you're voting for please um thank you now we'll now move to the vote so
all those in favor please raise your hands
all those against
the motions carried thank you
we're going to item two now democratic arrangements for 2025 26 on page 35 to 52
i'll ask the monitoring officer mr john medlem to introduce the report thank you councillors
please mr medlem is going to give his report thank you
thank you mr mayor um the report sets out the council's democratic arrangements for the next
municipal year members are asked to know that as the recommendations of the previous report were
just approved by council members you're this evening you are being asked to approve appendices 1a 2a and
3a within your supplementary pack i can also advise that in relation to appendix 5 which is the outside
body list and also um detailed as appendix e um in your report that councillor richard austin has
withdrawn his application for the with and forth district internal drainage board and as a result the
number of nominees for this body now matches the number of seats available i'm going to read out
mr mayor the recommendations for the report just for clarity for for all members they are that the
council approves the establishment of committees subcommittees panels and working groups for the
municipal year 25 26 including the allocation of seats to political groups and appointments brackets
and substitutes as nominated by political group leaders as set out in appendix 1a to this report
recommendation 2 appoints chairman and vice chairman of committees subcommittees and panels in
accordance with nominations received at the annual meeting of the council as set out in appendix 2a to
this report recommendation 3 is to approve the program of ordinary council and committee meetings
for the council for the council municipal year 25 26 as set out in appendix 3a to this report
and grant delegated authority to the chief executive in consultation with the relevant chairman to amend
meeting dates or council meetings as and when required recommendation 4 is to note the membership of
the cabinet of the cabinet and portfolios for the municipal year 25 26 as set out in appendix 4 to the report
recommendation 5 is to make appointments to the outside bodies where the council is the appointing body
is set out in appendix 5 to this report such appointments to automatically terminate at the end of
the appointment term or if the member ceases to be a member of the authority and finally
recommendation 6 which is slightly amended to that in your report and now reads as follows appoints amanda
bustrade and david irvine as the council's independent persons for the municipal year 25 26 brackets as
detailed in appendix 6 of this report approves the independent personal annual allowance rate set out in
section 75 7.5 of this report and approves the establishment and appointments to the council's
independent panel as set out in section 7.6 of this report so those are the report recommendations
members will have noted that before the council considers all of those recommendations um there
there have been two nominations for the position of vice chairman for the audit and governance committee
that is uh nominations for councillor danny and councillor gilbert and therefore before we consider
the six recommendations in the report a vote is required to confirm the appointments of that
position thank you mr mayor uh thank you john for that uh report can i have a proposal a seconder
firstly for councillor anton danny please a proposer uh councillor canterwell and a seconder
councillor can i have a proposal a seconder for councillor gilbert councillor woodliffe
and a seconder please councillor pike thank you we need to do some voting then i think now
all those in favor of councillor danny being appointed as vice chairman of the audience
governance committee please indicate
uh councillor gilbert has been appointed as vice chairman of the audience governance committee
motion carried thank you
i need a proposal please for this report recommendation one to six as advised by the
monitoring officer can i have a council to move that please councillor dorian and can i have a
seconder please councillor broadson thank you are there any speakers on this item
recommendation no no no no no do you wish to speak at all no so now we'll move to the vote
the recommendation of one to six all those in favor
all those against
and any abstentions no right thank you oh one abstention who was that sorry oh councillor brown
thank you very much right we're going to item three that's use of special urgency provisions
information report pages 53 to 58
oh sorry just to say that vote was carried for
the recommendation thank you i'll ask the manager officer to introduce this report
john john medler thank you
yes the reporter item three details the three executive decisions that have been made under the
council special urgency rules as contained in the council's constitution these decisions are
detailed within appendix one attached to the report and there's also a link provided to the
published decision the report is presented for noting mr mayor thank you
um thank you john um i'll open it to the meeting for any comments and questions please
no is everybody happy to take that as noted then agreed thank you item four
the quarter three finance update pages 59 to 86
um can i ask councillor gosh to introduce this report please
thank you mr mayor the quarter three financial update report you have before you provides
information on the forecast financial performances as of 31st of december 24. the q3 outturn report
was considered by cabinet on 26th of march 25 and updated the forecast position of the following items
uh general fund uh general fund revenue forecast general fund reserves position capital program 2425
and treasury management performance the key financial points in q3 of 2425 are the 2425 budget included an
efficiency target of 846 000 pounds as of 31st of december 656 000 which is 78 percent savings had been
been identified the process of identifying the in-year efficiencies will continue throughout the year
planning fee income is forecast to reduce compared to budget for 2425 by 93 000
the forecast for car parking income has increased by 76 000 pounds net investment income is overachieving
to the 31st of december 24 by 503 000 pounds and considering the full financial year investment income is
overachieving by 703 000 pounds against the budget of 1.587 million pounds the purpose of this report
coming to full council is to amend the capital program as detailed in the report amendments to the capital
program can arise for a number of reasons such as reprofiling of spend new request in the year
finalization of schemes and return of funds the revised capital budget as at q3 is 20.052 million pounds
derived from the combination of 2425 approved budget of 52.724 million pounds new in-year approved spend
slippage into future years and decommitted spend the overall expenditure as of q3 is 9.075 million pounds
the town fund project represents the largest specific group at 9.913 million pounds which is 49 percent of
the total revised capital budget mr mayor the recommendation from cabinet to council are that
full council amend the capital program at appendix a table 5a to take into account the changes set out in
this report thank you thank you mr mayor um yes i'd like to second that and i think him of right to speak
thank you are there any other speakers on this item castle woodliffe
uh thank you mr mayor um yes i'm fine with most of the support the only thing i am very concerned
about is that uh on page 75 when it talks about vehicle replacements and they've been slipped into
future years it says a few years as per budget report approved by the council they may have been
it may have come up before but i am concerned about these vehicle replacements and neighborhood vehicle
replacements i think we have to be very careful to make sure that all the equipment we use and ask
our officers to use is always up is always first rate it may have appeared somewhere else and maybe i
missed it but nevertheless i'm raising here because i am concerned about vehicle replacements we need to
be sure that we protect our officers all the time they're always using safe equipment i'm sure they are
i expect uh um council coach will we will inform accordingly if not here in writing later i'll be
fine okay but we do need to know about that okay thank you much to the mr mayor thank you very much
thank you council woodliffe anyone else want to speak
that's a noble
thank you mr mayor um first of all before i talk about the i just want to this is for council gosh
actually i noticed on page 74 to 75 we've got talk of a boston partnership fund now i don't recall that
fund being available two years ago when i was council but maybe i'm wrong so i'd be interested if you make a
note of how much is in that pot when it was instituted and when it was set up now looking to the
actual meat of the report i think there's some very pleasing aspects one is that the reserves seem
to be still in their healthy states that's 31st of march 25 they were virtually 12.5 million i think
we've also had a very pleasing return on our short-term cash investments that's most welcome and also as
councillor gosh referred to without net investment income of 703 000 plus that's very good but i do
notice that we're still a lot in our value of our property fund investments which were begun in 2016
to 18 and the property fund returns are forecast to be about 137 000 less than anticipated now that's
not surprising given we've got the dead hand of the state weighing down on public enterprise and we've
got a councillor so we have a chancellor who seems to want to be a stagflation supremo and i can tell
you now that although in the monetary policy committee might put interest rates down this year
inflation will return so we're not not in a very nationally a very good position but overall i think
it's quite a pleasing report and it's good to see all the details thank you mr mayor
thank you council thank you council noble anyone else wish to speak
that's the gosh would you like to uh sum up uh thank you councillor woodliff and councillor noble
thanks for your appreciation and the councillor would live i'll definitely get back to the team and
uh check it out thank you thanks thanks for this thank you
thank you we'll now move to the vote so all those in favor
those against
any abstentions
sorry the motion was carried thank you going to item five on page 87 this is the waste delivery
waste services delivery model uh can i ask councillor to introduce this report please
thank you mr mayor and good evening everybody the environment act 2021 introduced the waste reform
program for england a central pillar of this is simpler recycling this requires councils to collect food
waste weekly from all households from april 2026 as part of this scheme boston borough council has looked
at two ways of collecting the food waste option 1a in the report is to purchase separate smaller seven
and a half ton food waste vehicles and retain our existing fleet option 1b is to purchase 14 pod vehicles
that are capable of collecting food waste and general waste at the same time this would result in us no
longer lead needing our current fleet our preferred option is for the pod vehicles with them being
seen as the most economical at 615 000 pound per annum less than option a they're more viable there is a
shortage of hgv drivers nationally option b also um sorry and also the most environmentally friendly we would
have one red fuse truck going to each property instead of two these vehicles need to be ordered
in june as there is a lead time of 40 weeks for delivery and we are proposing to bring forward our
capital program of fleet replacement in order to facilitate this new collection method it is worth
noting that the with either option changes to collection routes will need to be made this will
invariably mean changes in collection days for the majority of our residents a full route review will
be procured should these recommendations be approved tonight i therefore seek approval from full council
for the following one oh hang on got that bit one approves drawing forward 2.1 million from the capital
program allocation for 27 28 28 29 to 26 27 to fund the capital cost of purchasing food waste collection
vehicles i therefore seek approval from full council for the following
so thank you thank you um i'll ask the monitor officers to have a few words thank you
yeah thank you mr mayor just for clarity on the recommendation one can i just confirm from the
portfolio holder was that approving drawing forward 2.01 million
yes that's correct thank you very much
um um do we have a seconder please and i'd like to reserve your right to speak do you have a second
day counselor dorian thank you mr may i'll second that and reserve my right to speak thank you
thank you are there any speakers on this item
no oh that's the noble
all right thank you mr mayor um there's several questions that arise here um because obviously
this has come to full council very late and the order has to be placed i think in june uh because
it's a 40-week process before they can be delivered um i'll take this in a particular order is the existing
freighter fleet going to be sold off after april 2026 because under the proposed scheme uh they cannot
be adapted um i know there's new burdens funding is going to be available from defra but it will not
be enough to think to meet the total cost of of replacement so i know the cost of the service is going
to be 3.37 million in 2026-27 now money must be drawn from the capital program because we know it's an
absolute requirement that this service begins in april 26 but i have several concerns and and
questions really i don't count or gosh can take a note of these things i mean how many vehicles are
going to be purchased what's the cost of each vehicle because i think historically freighters used
to cost between 160 180 000 so what's the cost of each vehicle are more operatives going to be needed
and what's the cost of that um are they going to be tender so i know there is limited people who
provide these vehicles but are we going to put it out to tender are we going to use a framework
agreement i do hope not other points um why has these options come to full council so late the
because the order has to be made in june so why has this not been presented earlier or sent to cnc for
scrutiny and other points we've got no detailed financial breakdown of option 1a
why not why haven't we got a detailed cost benefit analysis of both options we do not have that so
i think it's just really bad lately presented report but as i say the money does have to be set aside
because we have a statutory obligation to deliver these vehicles that's all thank you mr thank you
councillor noble are there any other speakers on the on the matter on the item
right councillor buckler we'd like to sum up please
thank you mr mayor thank you councillor noble for your comments um i'll respond to them in due course
and if that's all right with you um but basically one of the reasons why it's been late is because
we've been waiting for our final figures from central government regarding the allocation of the
funding so um amongst other things but as i say i'll respond to you in full in writing if that's all
right thank you thank you councillor buckler now we'll move to the vote all those in favour
any against no abstentions
one abstention and the motions carried thank you
thank you
now go on to the next item on item six nearly there folks don't worry
page page page 99 and the south east lincolnshire sorry south and east lincolnshire partnership
performance report i'll ask um councillor dorian to introduce the report thank you
thank you mr mayor this is the regular six monthly update on partnership performance the last report was
in september section two notes progress of the alignment and delivery plan all of the activities
in the plan for 24 25 have either been completed removed is no longer relevant or moved to the 25 26
plan deliveries being managed and reported by assistant directors where an action is off plan mr mayor in
terms of delivery mitigations are put in place there is an update on external funding in paragraph 2.4
and financial efficiencies are in paragraph 2.5 section 3 updates on the performance framework for
25 26 section 4 provides updates on the priority boards for economic development health safer
communities and environment with details of work undertaken in the last six months
finally section 5 updates on the work of partnership scrutiny with all recommendations on track overall mr
mayor significant progress has been made over the last six months since the last report thankfully
mr mayor this report is just for noting but if elected members have any questions i will respond in
writing thank you um
are there any speakers on the matter any speakers any council want to speak council noble
thank you mr mayor yes i'm pleased that the financial savings as indicated on page 101 are on track
what i am concerned about is some aspects of the partnerships performance particularly in relation
to customer contact now let me give you an example when i was a councillor before the target for answering the
the telephone was about two to three minutes now when i first was elected i tried to ring up the council
i was told the waiting time was seven to ten minutes and it was not until 20 minutes until someone picked up the phone
and then again two days ago i wanted to ring the council i rang the number and after about three minutes it just went dead
so i think that's an issue that the partnership does need to address customer contact i know it's the responsibility
of psps that's a worry and the other thing i just have is a is a question really it's a page 113 i think
uh i'll just check just bear with me please and it was to do with the customer or sort of response of
of workers council workers about how they felt or didn't feel valued
yes it's here a percentage of partnership workforce surveyed collectively who feel informed about the
partnership and what decisions is making it's the drizzery 56 percent for bbc for boston borough council
so i really think you need to canvas the the the views of members and make sure sorry of workers and
make sure that you do get a response because that's key in in understanding how how well supported how
confident they are in in the the uh program going forward thank you mr man thanks to council noble any more speakers
no more speakers so this is just for noting so all agreed
thank you we'll move on
the last item animal welfare licensing policy page 173 i'm going to ask councillor broughton to introduce the report thank you
thank you mr mayor this report considers the proposed animal licensing policy for boston borough council
the purpose of the policy is to provide advice to businesses operators and the public on the
council's overall position with regards to the licensing administration and enforcement of premises
where licensable animal activities are carried on responsibility for administration and enforcement
of a number of functions delegated to licensing authorities these activities are detailed in the body of the report
the council does not currently have a policy in relation to animal licensing and while there is
no legal requirement to adopt the policy it is important that a clear narrative is in place to
demonstrate how the authority will carry out its statutory responsibilities and that it creates both best
practice and transparency whilst the policy relates to activities within the borough of boston the policies of
other councils in the partnership have been taken into account to ensure that there is a consistency across the sub region
on the 17th of december 2024 the regulatory and appeals committee considered a draft policy
following which a six-week consultation was carried out with stakeholders
feedback from this consultation was considered by the committee on the 11th of march
2025 with a final proposed policy being approved for referral to council
it is requested that council note the content of the proposed policy and resolve to adopt the policy
following which it will be published thank you mr mayor thank you councillor broughton is there a
second down would you like to reserve the right to speak councillor dorian thank you mr mayor i second
the policy and reserve my right to speak are there any speakers on the matter that's the noble
thank you mr mayor um yes i've got a question really i know from what the council said that
stakeholders have been consulted but why are we being asked to adopt uh an animal welfare licensing
policy when we've not seen the written content of the policy why is the draft policy considered by
licensing committee members not presented here in order to help members make a decision so we're putting
the cart behind the horse i have no objection to an animal welfare lighting policy i think it's probably a very
god dear but we we've been asked to approve it before we've actually seen the content of the
policy putting the cart behind the force and that's why i have to abstain on this matter thank you mr
all right let's have some order please let's have some order
it's in the in the papers councillor noble i suggest you have a good read and then
thank you i thank you for your comments and be kindly noted that the reports in the the pack of papers
um are there any other speakers no right council brought would you like to sum up please on your
proposal and nobody said about it so yeah thank you very much so everybody all in favor like to vote on
this all in favor
any against
any abstentions
that's carried that motion
all right that concludes the formal business of this meeting
everybody's smiling now i can understand why and i would ask you all to remain seated for a few
minutes before coming through to the mayor's parlour uh and uh i'm just going to just check to make
sure that we're still not live on the uh oh