Transcript

Good afternoon Members and Officers. Welcome to the Multi-Location Meeting of the Standards Committee. If a fire alarm goes off, it is not a test and you should follow appropriate exit signs. That's for anybody in any council building. Before proceeding today I have to remind everybody present that the proceedings of the meeting are being filled live and may be kept on the council's internet site and archive record of the meeting. The images and sound recording will also be used for training purposes within the council. Members of public watching the meeting via the English language webcast will receive Welsh to English simultaneous translations automatically. Members and guests who have joined via the Zoom link can access the simultaneous translation from Welsh to English by selecting English from the interpreter button on the screen. Should you lose connection during the meeting, please make every effort to reconnect. However the meeting will continue as long as it remains coreate. Can I ask members and officers here today to please introduce yourselves before you speak? We will now move on to the agenda for today's meeting. The only apology for absence I have, agenda item 1, is from Jane Tramlett. She has an engagement she was unable to put her off. She has given us a written note which we may use, but she has also said she is willing to join us at another time if we feel that is insufficient and we want more information. So item 2, declaration to personal interest. Under the code of conduct we have a responsibility to declare any personal interests that we may have in relation to any item appearing on the agenda today. Please ensure you can indicate which agenda item you have a personal interest in and the specific nature of that interest to be disclosed and whether or not you will be withdrawn from the meeting during consideration of that item. If your interest is prejudicial, you will have to leave the meeting. For remote attendees, democratic services officer will place you in the virtual lobby and invite you back to the meeting when the debate has concluded. If an interest hasn't been declared at the start of a meeting, but becomes known during discussions, you will need to declare that when that becomes apparent. You will need to repeat your declaration of personal interest at the beginning of the relevant item on the agenda as well as indicating whether or not you will be leaving the meeting during consideration of that item. You will also need to indicate whether you have been granted a dispensation by the standards committee or the monitoring officer to speak or vote or both in respect to any item on the agenda. Will the committee members now please make their declarations by raising your hands if there are any, I can't see anybody leaving a hand at me. Okidoki, so item three on the agenda. To sign as a correct record, the minutes of the standards committee held on the 4th of March 2024. This is on page five of the agenda pack. Can I have a mover and a seconder please if the minutes are a correct record or any amendments to be made? Yeah, ok, so Daphne and Phil. Ok, thanks a lot. So could we all vote on that please? Anyone against? Any abstentions? So everybody for it? Yep, great. Agenda item four, meeting with political group leaders. This report presents the annual reports received from the council's three political group leaders and affords the committee the opportunity to discuss with the leaders the matters outlined within statutory guidance on the local government and elections act 2021. Linda East Jones will now present the report. Linda. So Chair this is the second year of the low duty on group leaders to promote high standards of conduct within their group members and to cooperate with the standards committee in achieving that. So as you yourself said earlier Chair, it is all still very much new. The duty was introduced by the Welsh government to ensure that the public can have confidence in democratic governance on the decision making process. Can I say that as a monitoring officer? I feel blessed with the members we have. They are always in my experience willing to seek advice as to whether they need to declare an interest or not and in that regard Rob and I try best to give that advice so it's very important to have that relationship with the monitoring officer and the deputy. So whilst there have been 12 code complaints made to the public services on Brisbane for Wales during 23, 24 about Camarvenshire County Council members, none of them have resulted in a referral to yourselves for hearing or indeed the adjudication panel for Wales. The bulk of those complaints have related to things a members have said whether in meetings or on social media or whatever. The committee will know that over the past 10 years or so case law has evolved and the courts have been very keen to state that members haven't enhanced freedom of expression. When matters they talked about are considered to be political with a small pea. So even if the comments members may have made could be regarded as being offensive or rude or inflammatory, the ombudsman will not intervene unless the comments were sufficiently egregious and it was considered in the public's interest to interfere with the members enhanced freedom of expression. None of the Camarvenshire complaints have been considered to be in that category. And I always say it's not the fact that a complaint has been made that that's important, it's the outcome of that complaint. So turn into the purpose of today's meeting which is for the committee to determine whether the group leaders have done all that they can to promote their standards of conduct amongst the members. Then Councillor Darrin Price, group leader of Plaid and Councillor Derek Candy, who only became group leader of the Labour group in February are present here today. But as you've said, Chair, Councillor Jim tremlet, group leader of the independence, that's hard to tender her apologies because she's delivering a presentation on something within her portfolio to the W.L.G.A. network today. But as you say, she has offered to meet with the committee at another time if you wish to do so. So all three group leaders have returned their submissions to you and they're in the PAC. Once government published a statutory guidance on various aspects of the local government and elections, Wales Act 2021, which is where this duty arises from, they issued that guidance back in June of last year 2023. And that guidance helpfully suggests some of the steps the group leaders might reasonably take to fulfil their duty. So it might be useful if I recap on those suggestions for you. So once government guidance says that reasonable steps the group leaders may undertake include demonstrating personal commitment to and attending and participating in relevant development or training around equalities and standards, including on the code of conduct, actively encouraging group members to attend relevant development or training around equalities and standards, including the code of conduct, ensuring nominees to a committee have received the recommended training for participating on that committee, promoting modelling, civility and respect within group communications and meetings on informal council meetings, supporting informal resolution procedures in the council and working with the standards committee and monitoring officer to achieve local resolution, encouraging a culture within the group, which supports high standards of conduct and integrity, attend a meeting of the council's standards committee if requested to participate in discussions on code of conduct issues, drive forward to implement any recommendations from the standards committee about improving standards, working with the standards committee to proactively identify, consider and tackle patterns of inappropriate behaviour, work together with other group leaders within reason to collectively support high standards of conduct within the council and where any issues identified involve more than one political group. So Chair, it's for the committee to determine whether you're satisfied with these steps the group leaders have taken, but it seems to me as well as as a committee meeting officer that there is evidence of all those steps set out in the guidance, haven't been taken into account by the group leaders, whether in relation to leading by example and attending training themselves and encouraging their members to attend training or I've seen references in there to, for example, she leads independent members who've formed themselves into an independent group. They are all free to follow their own politics and they all respect and have time for one another's views. And Council Price is leader of the council as well as being a group leader of course. And he mentions in his return the steps he's taken to change the way politics is conducted within the council by pushing for early cross party discussions on topics. And Council can be taught to be a gender of the Labour groups next AGM having specific items on their relating to personal conduct of members. Then I've seen mention in one of the returns about use of social media and the way it should be conducted amongst the group members having been clarified. So Chair, without you may wish to take the group leaders returns as read and throw the discussion open to the floor. Or you may want to Council Price and Council Candy to summarize what they have done. But just to remind everyone as well as commenting on whether the steps the group leaders have taken are reasonable and sufficient. I also need to agree today the frequency of the meetings, your meetings with the group leaders and the annual reporting process. And issues arising from complaints but of course there haven't been any complaints in command and Chair that have actually ended up anywhere. So with that Chair, I'm in your hands. Well, I wasn't totally certain how I wanted this to go. I did send out an email to my fellow committee members saying did we want to ask both of you say question one and then you answer question two. Nobody got back to me and said yes or no. So I'm not sure if the committee thinks that's a way to go. Or whether there is virtue in you just talking us through how you feel about this and what you've done. Could I actually ask my fellow committee members at this point, do they have a preference? I mean if you have a preference to asking individual questions to each of the Councillors here and working through the ones I've got, would you like to raise your hands now as opposed to just letting them present? I have no fixed feelings about this. I see virtue different virtues in both. So if you think you want to ask the individual questions or add into what I've said, could you just raise your hand now and I would be happy to go with that? If not, we would let the Councillors present what they have done, which was done, comma, to us. Daphne. Chair Daphne Evans, I may be not in touch with everyone else's feelings but I would quite like the leaders to give us a brief summary because I feel it would enable us to get to know them a little bit before we actually start asking any questions. That's my personal preference. Thank you, Daphne. I think that's quite a good step to start up. Anybody got any objections about? Again, if so, raise your hand. Okay. Councillor Price, would you like to start the ball rolling for us, please? Certainly. Thank you, Jen. Thank you, Derek, for the nomination. It's a new experience for us all but I'm grateful for the opportunity really to come to speak to you directly first of all. It's probably worthwhile exercise for us as group leaders just to take stock at least once a year for me and give us some space really to think about this particular issue. Clearly, there is lots going on in terms of the business of the Council and the particular discussions that we have and a whole range of issues. So, I think they certainly merit in taking some time out to do what we do in this afternoon. As you've seen from the written submission that I've provided, standards in public life are imported to me and clearly I have not been in a leadership position until May 2022, which came with a bit of surprise, let me tell you. But since that time, I have set out generally to try and change the culture of this particular space and the way that we do business, the way that we debate topics and the way that we reach consensus. I think if we look back over the past two years, there is evidence there in terms of setting up formal regular meetings with leaders of the other groups to discuss a whole range of matters and also in terms of informal discussions, which I think was something new that has been brought into the Council. I think that does bear flute in terms of the way that debate is conducted in the chamber and I think that we have seen a shift of the past few years on that point. Tilly Derek has been newly elected as leader of the Labour Group, but I've known Derek for over ten years, now there are 12 years, 12 years there, 2012. We were elected at the same time, we got on very well together, you know, and there's never been a crossword actually in those 12 years and I wouldn't imagine that that would change anytime soon just because we may disagree on a particular policy issue. So I think that this is something that needs to be driven from the top and the actions of those at the top in terms of the group leaders are vitally important. So I'd like to think that I've played a small part in terms of changing the culture within the chamber here and the record of proceedings would back that in terms of evidence. In terms of the workings of the group, you'll see from the statistics there that there are some within my group that still haven't attended court of training conduct in the last year. I did and I also encourage all group members to do just that. Clearly not everybody was able to attend on that particular date, but as part of the communications and I sent a few emails to group members, I did reference online material that they could refer to, particularly on the Nolan principles and standards in public life as part of that communication because clean at all members are able to attend all sessions. Within my group, I must say that generally we do not have issues arising, readily in terms of conduct. We have discussions on a whole range of matters and as I've suggested in the written submission, these are pretty difficult times for local government and public services across the board actually in terms of budget cuts and the really difficult decisions that we have members have to take then as a result of those funding decisions. And it's very clearly that members will have very different views sometimes in terms of approach in terms of how best to cope with those funding pressures. But throughout the last year, I must commend the group really in terms of upholding standards as part of those discussions and there have been some really difficult discussions and difficult decisions to make during the last year. In terms of looking forward, I would be very keen to build on the relationship that I got with Derek as the main opposition group and indeed other Councillors who sit within the chamber who are of no critical group. We have a number of unaffiliated members and I speak directly to them on matters that are related to their particular awards. So in summary chair, I think that generally I am content both in terms of the way that my group members conduct themselves when we speak to each other and reach decisions and also in terms of that cross-party working within the chamber and outside. But more than happy to take the particular questions that members would have if they have any, Joe. Thank you very much for that. I was going to say, are you willing to take some questions now? Because I was just thinking as you were going along, if Councillor CANDID doesn't mind that we did that, I would have gotten in half an hour. The brain doesn't necessarily hold that and I'd be concentrating on that. I'm not afraid and I'm sure, though I hope I don't seem too much here, that my fellow standard committee members would feel the same. So does anybody have a question at this point? Would you like to film? Would you like to ask a question or? Thank you, Chair. Do you have a complaint? Phil Rogers, Sinclair's Councillor and the Community Council, remember. I was interested when I read the report. I think there was several times you mentioned the issues of respect and respect for conduct and it was a thread running through the report. I think that was helpful to hear that type of language through it. My question, let's around the, you mentioned the group's social media platform for developing policy and there'd been one or two tensions there and you'd gone to resolve it by going through away days. Were there away days in place prior to those tensions arising there or they were in place to enable people to have face-to-face conversations? As a group, we've had away days historically over a number of years but they weren't as regular as we're having them now as we've gone to a quarterly pattern where we have that chance to discuss major policy issues or key decisions that we have coming up. I think that social media has created a technology. It's fantastic in one sense in terms of being able to link very quickly and to get sort of a quick feel for what the group members are thinking but there's a risk with that that what we'd found. Our experience was that obviously we were having lots of sometimes complex discussions over WhatsApp and if we've been honest, you can't resolve complex policy matters electronically. That is clear for all. I think we've tried to just to reaffirm what the group processes in terms of decision-making and policy direction and the away days are the key for them for that. I think there's also an issue in terms of messages being maybe lost or misinterpreted when they're in the right thing that can often happen. Whereas it's far better I think to have that face-to-face discussion on these matters. So that was the number of it essentially. Kylie, you'll still need that sort of short shop exchanges in terms of just confirming meeting dates or whatever but the more robust discussion, tag the discussion is up and I think in the more structured manner and that's what I tried to establish in response to those concerns. Thank you very much for that. Phil, do you want to take that further? I thought that was quite a thorough answer. Does anybody else wish to raise any points here? I'm looking for anybody to raise a hand. Daphne Evans, would you like to put on? Thank you Chair. I was going to mention the same thing as Phil but I would also like to mention I am a bit concerned about the number of members who still haven't attended code of conduct since the election really and so obviously you're going to try and address that and you'll have the opportunity this year to do that but the other thing I wanted to do was to commend you really on your regular cross-party meetings because I think that's really really good that you're meeting and trying to get agreement on different things and share your ideas and I think that's the way forward really for councils and so thank you very much and I commend you for it. Thank you Daphne, Dareth, have you had your hand up and put it down or it's very difficult to tell sometimes with do you have any questions? Well yes thank you Chair. I was just coming to come in as a prospective from a county councillor on the standards committee for donkeys years saying that the relationship is pretty good between parties and everything I'm on this group and he's planning committee and the relationship is pretty good and within our party. Okay we will have a disagreement but you know it's very amicable in the end. One thing I was listed it and Hans freedom of expression I think I will stick to that a bit now and Hans my freedom to express could be a very subjective subject but on the whole I think it's very good and I think the standard around the chamber is also very high. With those few words Josh. Thank you very much Gareth. I must admit I do agree with the statements made here I think that I put it simply I like your report it seemed to cover most of the bases that you know I wanted to hear. I think the quarterly pattern of away days is very useful I agree with you about giving the message as opposed to just sending out if you see what I mean you personally passing on the message as opposed to text emails whatever I think that's very very useful I think it does give a different feel to something. So yeah actually I suppose I'm going to say well done I think you submitted a very nice report and thank you for the effort you put into it. It rather negates all the sort of questions I was oh sorry sorry better better. It's okay. I'd like to say as well since darling became the leader in 2022 I first became a counselor in 2017 I feel the way that he's tried to conduct himself and you know the people within his group in the chamber here on council days you know I feel that it's much calmer and obviously there's been discussion beforehand with perhaps you know the opposition parties and also I'd like to say I've worked closely with Derek since 2022 I was his vice chair on the strategic committee for communities of regeneration and I've always found the other groups that people I've always worked with on strategic committees you know we've sometimes agreed to disagree but we're always courteous and always prepared to listen to somebody else's point of view and I do think that the way days are good because as everybody knows when you know in what's up groups like some people can get a bit heated about different different things but darling always intervenes calmly you know and says you know perhaps this discussion is for another time in a group meeting where we've faced to face so I just wanted to share my experience with you since darling became leader of the private committee group and I know that Derek will be an excellent leader of the labor group within the council as well thank you thank you very much for that that's and so thank you very much I think you seem to be able to please most of the questions are please give responses that we want to hear and as I was saying I think my little list of questions has been a bit that I sent out a bit unnecessary so I'm sorry I don't see the hands always Frank would you like to speak yes thank you chair council first very quickly I'm one of the independent members of the standards committee I hope you can hear me my name is Frank Phillips I just wondered whether you had any views about the frequency of meetings with the standards committee and second year chair raised in some of the written submissions to us as members of the committee this very pertinent question I think have you any do you feel that you require any additional resources or training needs as a result of this exercise yeah thank you for the for the question in terms of any additional support I don't I don't think so I think the questions are you know a pretty self-explanatory and it wasn't owners in any way shape or form and in terms of the statistics which I needed to offer the support for in terms of the number of complaints and number of members who actually attended you know that was readily available through through Linda and demonic services so from my point of view more than happy in terms of the support that I got to fill the return and in terms of the specific question in terms of the regularity of the you know discussion I'm I'm pretty relaxed about that I think annually seems seems reasonable you know but clearly if there was a wish from the committee to to meet in a more regular basis and clearly I'd be more than happy to do that but I think on an annual basis it gives us that time to take stock take step back to see where we are but open to open the suggestions thank you very much thank you any board Carol if you'd like to put your question My name is Carol Davis I'm an independent member and thank you very much for your your report and for your presentation today I just want to ask a quick question about shared learning I don't know whether you're familiar with the case summaries that are provided by the adjudication panel for Wales and the Ombudsman in terms of some of the cases that they've investigated or adjudicated on and wondered whether or not that was something that you receive and whether or not that's then shared with members of your group it's certainly not shared by members of my group that is not not not proactively by myself that's something that I currently do but again if it's felt that there's merit in that it's certainly something we could we could establish isn't it you know pretty pretty quickly and pretty easily I would I would imagine yeah I think there's certainly scope isn't it if there are incidents that are happening in other parts of the country or there are themes you know then certainly I can see the benefit of sharing that learning with group members across across the whole country so yeah I'm more than happy to engage on that basis if that is the you know the feeling or the meeting absolutely is that all kind of yeah well we get them sent to us Robert normally sends them out to us so I mean I presume it's very easy for him just to extend the email base and it's quite interesting reading and I think sometimes it could make somebody think a little bit more you know it's it's highlighting areas you don't necessarily think about so yeah I could make it nice that we can send a link to the agenda item to the group leaders as and when they come before the standards committee okay thank you very much right okay anybody else wish to raise any further matters on this don't know where the high school you always came from then but right okay thank you very much councillor price Councillor CUNDY do you like to present your report and I do realize the fact that you have not had a full year but thank you very much for getting things together for us thank you very much I'm just reading the report and it says for the period 8th of February till 31st March I thought correctly that's quite a short tenure I'm hoping actually that it keeps going but having having said that obviously it's a very short short period of time for me to be the leader I've known Darren as Darren has said 12 years we get on very well I've known James for 14 years so yes we all work well together I believe and I think it is a point that this council is actually very civil and the members tend to work well with each other obviously we're in debates it's going to be robust discussion I think Darren the last one he agreed with 90% what I said but that 10% is quite hard the point really is that we are happy to debate but that's what we're trying to do we have different parts we are different parties but I believe that we're all trying to get the best for the people of tomorrow than in our own way and I think that's the way we look at it within the group I try to push the point about that it's not about personality it is about the office so you're dealing with a leader whether or not outside the chamber there's personal relationships and many people have lots of cross-party relationships we talk about cross-party and of course Darren's actually been pushing as I have myself about scrutiny committees and this is actually where a lot of the cross-party working is done within those committees and we're expanding that more and more and in fact Darren has to be fair push this down to actually get the cruises of scrutiny committees to actually be able to influence some of the policies before they actually go to cabinet and then come back to the council for being agreed this is making things really quite good because it's taking away if you like the arguments that happen later on it actually means the things are being done within the group itself I did say that had the AGM that's headed on Friday I'll just give you an example of it just as one of the courtesy is I've asked I said if a member of the public reports something to you that it's not in your ward please contact the council who's warned that constituent lives in and refer the constituent to that council whether they are Labour or whether they are not and the whole point is this again is is trying to put out there a certain matter of stability otherwise it becomes very very confusing but I think that's the way we need to do it it's the things that we should do there's not an awful lot I can say that Darren hasn't really said already so it's sort of thank goodness that were my thunder but I'm pleased to answer any questions you might like to give me thank you thank you very much for that okay members of the committee would you like to put any questions towards Councillor CUNDY thank you Councillor CUNDY thanks to me at you and again thank you for your presentation and I noted in your report that you said you were continuing your predecessor's efforts to ensure that social media posts by group members do not breach the code and I wondered if you could tell us a little bit more about how you go about that we don't particularly encourage people just to go off willy-nilly just making a statement on social media as you realise and I think as Darren referred to things can get out there very very quickly it's very immediate and often it's very emotional as opposed to being anything else so it's often better not to so we're actually working to move forward with a proper press offering and to make sure that we actually work as a group everything should come through the group really and do it that way we all have to be very careful on social media nowadays I mean it's it's so it can be so incendiary and we just can't afford to do that that's really good thank you Phil thank you for Rogers I'm just interested in you mentioned that you've got into the contracts that you use within the group I would just tell us a little bit more about that Councillor Gadde microphone apologies when the Labour members became Labour members we actually have a written contract right to actually say about the standards we believe that people need to follow it's as simple as that is that literally a written set of rules if you like internal rules which we expect people to follow they don't obviously we can speak to them and say why aren't you following this but so it gives a guideline basically what people should have shouldn't. Daphne Evans thank you Councillor CUNDY only just one brief question you mentioned that all of your members have attended code of conduct training but we don't know when and so obviously you can't answer that off the top of your head but it might be useful in any report in the future for you to be able to say when they actually attended because obviously it can be a long time ago and things change and so that would be interesting but thank you very much for your report okay I cannot see any hands up but I do go blind sometimes looking at that screen up there okay yeah the only thing I would just like to agree on my fellow committee members is as you both are well aware I think social media can be a wonderful thing but it causes so many problems and I do think that so many people I will say in general don't engage the brain or I mean with emails I mean I was always told write it down put it in your draft section wait a couple of hours and then send it if you feel the same which is taken away now and I think that has led to problems that we don't really need in any of the situations we find ourselves in anyway thank you both I personally feel very content with the platform asking you do you need any training or additional resources or anything like that no I feel the same way that does we were very well supported actually I was lovely to hear I don't feel that there's anything else I can see that we need to ask Phil has way to finger at me though so I could be wrong I frequently am yeah thank you it's something to show just for clarification really until pumps explore a little further with everybody it's that if you look at the report that's coming from comes to the trapnet she mentions that the training that's taking place and I think the answer is to the question that there's a left members and then the trained on the code I think that's slightly misleading because I think what she means is not in the last 12 months I think they've all been trained on the code because she goes on to say further on that there's they were all trained despite the initial process but I wondered whether anybody had a view on how frequently we should be expecting members to be trained on the code that is it sort of once and for all or is it something that should be regularly revisited and particularly whether either the group leaders had a view on that you know so I'd be grateful perhaps to explore that a little further Jay thank you Council President first yeah it's a it's a difficult one isn't it because when I when I saw the stats my group I was a little bit disappointed that some hadn't taken up that offer last year because it had been put on to try and it was a mock-up session that was how it was you know soaked so I was a bit disappointed that not all that managed to make it but I absolutely appreciate as well the people they work they've got other commitments so you just aren't able to attend those sessions every time and that's why I felt it important okay to at least then share an online resource because I knew that the majority of the group lots of the members have been I've been counselors for quite some time they've very experienced you know they they well versed really in terms of the those underlying principles but of course as you say things do change and there are changes in legislation or guidance that is important members are fully up to speed and personally I mean I know that as part of the induction process at the start of every council council term the code of conduct training is a central part of that training package for newcomers but of course there is that why the question is actually for those comes from the beginning for quite some time how regular should it be you know I wouldn't see a problem personally you know for that for that to happen at the same time as new counselors so at least one-severed tomb that you get an update you know it may be that we could package it for for returning them as if you know the offer might be a little bit different because of course they might have had the training previously and it might just be a shorter session that we could we could put on but from my perspective I think once at the start of that term would seem an opportune time to to hold that isn't it so you're ready then for the next for the next five years that will be my view but again happy to be led by others if there's a if there's a strong view to the country I think that's probably spot on to be honest with you every new council obviously needs to happen I think there is that does need to be a smaller session perhaps for experienced counselors because you've been there bloody you're with it you're in it all the time but I do think that's probably a good idea is to have a smaller session perhaps for experience just if you like an update session which I think would be good because even that update session could cover the last two terms if you like just to do it by say to do it every term at beginning that's nothing that would work okay Phil, can I just come back here it's something that occurred to me in the light of the common I think coming because I think we're aware perhaps as a scientist committee more and more of the particularly the examples that are given by the engagement regularly about social media the kind of pitfalls that are out there that don't necessarily reflect in what one off trading at the start of the five years because sometimes the examples are quite pertinent to things that are happening that come before us at times and and it just I just wondered whether one way to do it might be we offer all public community councils the package of training so that they can access it at their own leisure for whatever better way putting it I wondered whether making the similar sort of package available to the group leaders so that individual councils then could access that to see if there'd been any particular updates because I know the examples that are given change virtually anyone Robin puts a lot of effort into those to highlight the new ones that have come through and I thought it struck me when you mentioned that the props that was a way forward but it's just a thought that's all chair thank you anybody else got a point they want to raise on that? we do actually get social media training as well so councils do go through that it's become more and more apparent from the actual councils point of view that then the councils aren't saying things not just against it or difficult for the party but actually with the council as well so those things are going on all the time I just thought that was important to point out yeah just to pick up on that point I suppose some of this is good to me now is that when we put the training on initially obviously some in my group were unable to then if we could record those sessions potentially and hold them as part of the training pages that would enable them to access it on that point and it's you know we'd have to make sure that we could track that they had been accessed and for the appropriate length of time you know but I think it would be probably a positive step if we could try and organize that maybe in future yeah yes chair from memory I think the core training was the first training given in the induction model so it wasn't recorded but subsequent sort of training sessions like I did one on the constitution and that was and was put in the members library so once we might be able to track how many have accessed the online material I'm not sure if they're able to track who have accessed it but it's certainly something we can sort of follow up on. I'd quote somebody she would say that wouldn't she? For me I don't feel that having a one-off training is enough I understand you're coming from different places I have a background in healthcare and basically yeah I know about CPR training but whether I liked it or not I have to do CPR training every six months and there are certain things that one can always feel that one is familiar with but I have walked away from many a training session and thought gosh I have forgotten that point I am coming from it from a very different place than you and to me that just isn't enough training and I am now speaking personally this may or may not be the feeling of my committee but I really do not feel that's enough I think that as I personally would have said once a year which probably you're going to raise your eyebrows and that's fine as I said we come from different places but I think you know you can forget an awful lot in a year and I know going over something you know can be boring but I actually think there should be a way that that training should be available or should be undertaken at least midway through any term as a minimum and I think there should be a way of recording it officially for every counsellor but I'm coming from this from a different standpoint and that's what I feel as I said I probably would say to you well I am I'd like it every year I can see that you have other things to think about so that might be a bit much but hey I don't think once every two years going through how long does it take two hours maybe less I don't think that is going over sort of like really waste your lives I think it could pass on some very useful information I am very happy to have my committee members tell me no Mary I'm just putting it out there but that's what I'd like to say so committee members if you would like to comment I'm very happy to take your yays and nays well I totally agree coming from an education background as well I think that once every five years is not enough and I would think that it should be much more regular than that and there are always new things coming up and we we learn an awful lot we're looking at these things most meetings really and each time you learn something new really because life moves on and experience moves on and I think you would find it very very useful to have it more often thank you thank you thank you chair and I don't know about the every year because obviously there needs to be a balance between resources for the officers involved in delivering the training but I think there is a case perhaps especially for new members to have a kind of refresher after a short period of time because often you don't know what you don't know until you've actually experienced something and you may realize the relevance of it I think for me it's it's what I referred to earlier about those APW reports and the ombudsman case summaries is learning from the experience of others about what can go wrong and how to avoid it so for me that's equally as important as any kind of formal training Phil? Sorry chair to come back in again I just wondered whether there's some kind of a halfway house here because I can understand it when you come from a similar background where you were expected to keep updated regularly with things but there's also the pressure of time and this pressure on other things that you have to do I'm sure and I'm sure prospects of the guard I think you probably come at it slightly differently but I wondered whether by sharing the training materials because I know that Robert updates the examples and equally with some interesting new ones and particularly as we mentioned earlier on the social media often that they are ways in which others in other authorities perhaps of conducting themselves which don't always meet the standards perhaps there are in this authority perhaps just highlighting those to the group leaders and then perhaps you could perhaps cascade that in some way perhaps in one of your away days or perhaps you know the other meetings you have to say these are new things which have come along if these resident whether you know they're doing some bells alarm bells here or there and that would be one way forward but but I am also thinking that perhaps for new members a refresher halfway through a term of office might be worth having other look at next year perhaps we'll be to get thank you thank you Gareth yeah as well as got a foot in both camps really I've been on the standards committee for a long time I think knowledge is additive because I usually learn something new almost every meeting having been involved with the a few one's Goodman cases over the years I've been there that was a steep learning curve but a steep learning curve that I could not have learnt except being on the case but it's interesting it's always interesting reading what's happening with other county councils and councilors and community councils where the arms would man is involved gives you a different perspective and I would think I wouldn't say how many well how many meetings or inductions do we need in a full term I don't know but I think it is useful to read what the arms would man and very yeah you learn a lot from what other councillors have done wrong and how far they've gone to be wrong as well I think that's just as important and having a course or to what you call it to highlight it but you know we hopefully people will just read and look at it I don't want to be ordinary but you got to be on there on any standards I would call it so I don't think I don't I don't want it to be as I say ordinary this is the word but it is interesting reading so as one has been on the standards committee I probably have just I did an update on over the years you seem to realize what's happening there and I see a lot of people are the same anyway thank you for that Gareth um okay right so I think as a summary I think that as you've heard from all the committee members we are very content with the reports that you've had that you've submitted I think Jane is sent in a piece of paper and I think maybe we should consider without you councillors being here whether we wanted to meet up with her or whether we're happy what she's got I that you know thank you for the effort you put into that it would be I think a useful thing to have a possible mechanism for a midway highlight of the code somewhere in your way days or however you choose to go forward and you know it's up to people obviously to take it up or not try and get an idea of that so I'm quite happy to see that once a year could be a bit much but I think I would like if possible to think that that could happen I don't feel that we need to see you more often than that that you may wish to see us that's the other thing this isn't just one way it's if you feel you want to see us as a committee or me though I might not necessarily have all the answers without the back in my committee anytime in the year do you have that ability to access us at any time but I think we're content with a once a year report and I am quite content with the way the day is gone if anybody has any additional things to raise would they please raise it now and let me put my glasses on to see okay so I have to have someone to move whether the group leaders have completed their duties under the act can I please have somebody to move that motion Carol and do I have a seconder anywhere? Gareth that's lovely thank you uh those in agreement please raise your hands I think that's unanimous isn't it Kevin yeah great so we'll now move on to agenda item five and there are no items urgent business to be discussed today so thank you all for your attendance and I declare this meeting closed