Transcript

Good morning to Learning and Skills Committee of the 23rd of April. We're joined by members of the Finance Panel also, so we've sent a very warm welcome to you all, certainly help in our contribution to any questions that we have tonight implied today. First item on your agenda is apologies for absence. I've had apologies for Councillor Lucy from committee, Kath, you've got apologies from officers as well. Yeah, we've also got apologies from Councillor Pete Roberts who's on other Council business today, Councillor Jeremy Pugh and Councillor Elwin Thorne from Finance Panel. Gareth Hawke, co-optive member for Finance Panel. Officers Georgie Bevan had a service, Jane Thomas, Director of Corporate Services, and we've been notified that Councillor Brynne will be a little bit late. Good. Does anybody else have any other people who'd like to add to our apologies? If not, we'll go to item two on your agenda, disclosure of interest, does anybody got anything to declare? Catherine, you've got your hand up. Yeah, I don't know how much it will be discussed, but obviously I've got an interest in the Clan Bottling attachment area review and obviously that's part of the strategic plan. Yeah, I understand that. Yeah, I'm not sure on that one, really. There's no decision-making being made today. No, I didn't think it was much of an interest, but I thought I'd best just to raise it anyway. I'm just thinking, really? Anybody got any advice to give on that one? Obviously, it's only in the interest of one school within that catchment, isn't it? Yeah, well, too, because obviously it's the Clan Bottling as well. Catherine, I'm going to take the easy route out, and I'm just going to say to you is that it will be up to you whether you declare on that one or not, but in my opinion, I think you'll be OK today. Yeah, OK. If anybody tells me different throughout the meeting, that's fine, I'll let you. Thank you, Ted. Just some of the Catherine, really. Just for clarity, just for information. I don't think there's an interest involved here, but my son teaches at Corrion, and my wife is a part-time teacher, sometimes I don't know what's in. Yeah. Just some connections, so the connections as a Catherine, so just perfect clarity. Thank you. Yeah, no, thanks for that clarity, and in my opinion, both of you declared an interest under, I think it'd be interesting to hear your views on the areas as they come up as well. So, and as I said, we're not actually in decision-making, so unless somebody tells me different through the meeting, we'll go with that. Similarly, at item three, declaration is a party whip. I'm guessing there'll be nothing there, but if there is, please declare now. And that takes us to item four on your agenda. The minutes of our meeting on the 20th of March, they were chaired by Councillor Lucy, vice chair of learning and skills. Anything anybody would like to contribute there, or is anybody happy for me to propose that they're true and correct record? Yes, chair. Yeah, they've been proposed. I think that was Councillor Suh, and seconded. Yeah, thanks, Councillor Glynn, and judging on your silence, all in favour. Good, thank you. Members, that takes us to item five on the agenda, and I forgot to mention at the start of our meeting, we do have a translation available today, if anybody wishes to speak through the meeting of March. Borudah, Eilis, your interpretation button on your line down now, where you source the Welsh English translation. But please encourage anybody that wishes to speak in Welsh. Please do so. Item five on your agenda. I've got pop-ups everywhere, all of a sudden. The Sustainable Communities for Learning Strategic Outline Program. They're pages 13 to 62 in the PAC. Usually, I would go to Councillor Pete now for a short introduction, but as you've heard, he's given his apologies today. So, we're going to go directly over to Marianne to take us through the report, and we'll open up for questions afterwards. So, Borudah, Marianne. Borudah. Can I first of all start with—thank you for the opportunity to attend today to go through the new Sustainable Communities for Learning Strategic Outline Program for the Council, which is highly ambitious. I'm joined today, as you can see on the screen about Dr. Richard Jones, director with us today, and I've also got James Swaby, who's our professional lead for the Property Design Services within the Council. And I've also got Mary and James from Finance, and I think Anne has joined us as well from Finance. So, we've got a full team this morning. So, as a bit of a background, in the past, we refer to the school's capital program as a 21st-century school program. So, you'll be familiar with this term. We have delivered and built schools, attended partly by the Council, partly by World's Government, since 2014. And previously, the 21st-century school's program was split into five-year bands, and we were given a funding envelope based on our SOP. So, I'm going to be referring to the program as the SOP. So, we were given five-year funding envelopes, and we needed to deliver our projects within the budgets available. The World's Government have changed their approach in order to be able to be more flexible, given the volatility in the markets. They've learned lessons along the way. We've learned lessons along the way, and all kinds of issues come up when we're delivering this SOP program. So, with our local authorities and colleges now for nine-year rolling programs, these rolling programs are based on three-year, not bands, but three-year tranches. So, in years one, two, and three, the expectation is that we include projects that are expected to reach full business case within the three years. Years four, five, and six projects are being developed and going through statutory consultation, and in the last three years, are pipeline projects. And they're looking, they're looking for authorities to review their program at least every three years. And this will allow us the ability to bring forward projects if needed, if we've delivered others, et cetera. So, it's a far more flexible approach which we welcome. The intervention rates are the same as previous. So, in your papers, you'll see the intervention rates. 65% for community schools, 85% for voluntary aid, special schools get 75% funding, and then there's reference to the MIM, the mutual investment model. And then we've got extra over costs of net zero of 100% to meet the targets. So, the investment objectives for the Welsh governments program can be found in detail and they're giving you the link in the cabinet report. But, basically, they are very clear about what they want this program to achieve. So, first of all, it's to transform learning environments and learner experience. It's to meet the demand for school places to ensure that the right number of schools in the right places. And this includes criteria around Welsh medium places as well. Obviously, they've got improving condition and suitability of the education estates. And with this, they specifically request local authorities to reduce the amount of condition D buildings, so the worst school buildings that we have, but also condition C buildings as well. They're looking for local authorities to develop sustainable learning environments. Now, this alluded to the net zero targets that we have to achieve. And then the last one is around supporting the community. And this is around the community focused element where they're looking for schools to be more than just schools and to utilize schools as best as we can for the benefit of the community. So, that's the background. Any questions on that before I go further? I think that's a good place to stop off there. Obviously, there's the background. That's the new direction. Any questions? No, everybody clear and content on that item of the paper, yeah? Okay, Marianne. Okay, great. So, we have then been working on developing our stop. And there's two key linkages here. First of all, our school building program is central to sustainable poets. So, it's around looking at how we transform the schools, the state, how we look at having sustainable school sector going forward, and how we look at our schools of being community focused facilities, and also how we meet the net zero agenda as well. So, we've linked it very much to sustainable poets, but we've also linked it very, very closely to the Transforming Education Strategy, because that is the strategy that we've signed up to. And within that strategy, there's an amazing action to implement the major capital investment program. And we've already got the words in our strategy around community focused schools. So, our strategy aligns very well with the way the Welsh Government's vision for this program. It's going to be delivered. So, within the paperwork, you will have the SOFT itself, which is a chunky document, and within the SOFT, it's based on the fire case business model. So, first of all, it asks us to outline how our program meets a number of their key policy areas, such as regeneration, such as the WESP, such as community focus tools, such as active travel, climate change. So, we've got the information around how we have how this program links to delivering their new policy areas. We've also then got the economic case, which is where we've developed our own set of investment objectives. And you can see how they have different the ones from the previous SOFT. We've also then outlined how we've grouped options together. So, we're looking at the do minimum option, an intermediate option, and a maximum option. And we went to an option praise or exercise, and our preferred option, and it's option three. I can go into more detail about that later. It also then gives us an opportunity to stake our commercial case. So, how we deliver projects, our procurement strategy, etc. And also then they give you the financial case and the profiling of the projects, plus how we'll manage the overall program. And at the end, it's got key milestones for the program. These are very high level estimations. We're closer on knowing the anticipated opening dates for the current projects. But obviously, the others are estimates at this stage, very high level. And then at the end, as before detail then, about what's going to be delivered within the first three years, and then the middle three years, and then the pipeline projects at the end. So, and on that, I will just end with the cost of your overall program. Estimated cost is 300 million. It's a significant chunk of money. We have profiled it over 12 years. So, our profiling is not about years because of concerns around affordability. We've been going to that in more detail as well. The other thing that I just need to say before, before I open up questions is, the other difference here, they said, we're not being given a pot of funding to deliver within that pot of funding. The new approach is very much based on each project standing up for itself. So, the business case for each project will be scrutinized. And I think at that stage, the council, as well as well as governments, considers the affordability of each project on a case by case basis. I think they could be giving you enough of an overview now. So, what do you have questions? Thanks, Marianne. Obviously, there's an awful lot of detail behind everything that Marianne has told us. But yeah, I think that's a really good summary to get us starting off. I'm happy to take questions from scrutiny and the finance panel. Obviously, there's a lot of detail. I actually think it's quite a straightforward document, actually. So, very often, the document can baffle us a little bit. But I think it does show exactly what is happening when and where and how much. So, yeah, let's have some questions. Councillor ALLID. Thank you, Chair. I'll kick off. It's good to see this long-term view. Of course, we can get into more of the detail when we look at that little soft program. So, especially on pages, I think you put mid-50s onwards about the various projects over the next few years. We can just kick, if we can kick that around a bit later. But it is good to see this initial program. To be honest, that hasn't changed much over what it was two, three, four years ago. My frustration is that we've been treading water for a number of years in my own local schools. They've had designs up on the wall in the classrooms of potential future school. It's going to be 10 years plus, isn't it? That's my frustration about the pace of change. To be honest, how it fits in with sustainable power is going forward as well. And that's our own affordability. But we can come to that more when we're looking at the stuff in the actual soft itself. On Jojakar Mariam and Jojakaran Gidograi, 13-8 everyone. Okay, Jojakar, can I respond? One thing I didn't clarify is, well, so we're allowing authorities to move their, what was called, BANDB projects into the nine-year program. So, our remaining BANDB projects, our program, Sennbridge, Brinshelar, and Kalan and Edwin. So, those are in design case. So, those moving into the nine-year rolling program. So, that's a take a significant chunk of the funding. I appreciate the frustration, Alad. What another change, I think we need to think about here, and we've alluded to it in the papers, is in the past, we've tended to look at new builds and tended to deliver new builds. What we need to look at as we go forward with this more flexible program is whether we can remodel schools or whether we add extensions, et cetera. So, let's see if we can get the funding to go further and impact more schools than the previous program. So, just to say that as well, we've also been discussing, and I've alluded to it in the soft as well, whether we look at different models of building, Jim's on the call, so he's far closer to this than I am, but whether there's opportunity for quicker delivery through other means, such as off-site builds, et cetera model builds, Jim, Jim can outline that. So, we're trying to make sure that we look at all kinds of things within this new program, and I think the preferred option of option three, I hope the wording is flexible enough for us to be utilising the funding as flexibly as possible. Thank you, Marianne. Jim, do you want to come in there and just give us a flavour of the new thinking there? Are you happy to comment at this stage? No, I've come in very briefly. I think what we're looking for is a flexibility of approach within the program to find the right solution for the particular project. No two projects are the same. Projects can be very similar, but actually your strategic approach to them can vary quite considerably. So, we're looking to widen it off-site construction as one form of modern methods of construction. We already and have for many years used elements of modern methods of construction, so it's continuing in extending that discussion against the need to make the pound go further. Thanks, Jim. We choose my ignorance here, off-site construction. So, off-site construction is where elements are built in a factory, and that can be either wall cassettes, floor cassettes, root cassettes, or it can be pods or modules. So, it's a kind of catch-all term. And timber framing at its best is exactly that. So, the timber frame is produced off-site rather than being constructed on the construction site itself. Okay, thank you. Yeah, Ali, Councillor Ali's coming back. No, I welcome that flexibility is important that we use potentially any latest technology. It's important that I know Jim is really keen on, on our site as well, so that's positive. Just going back to the report, it's referenced there, the min option. When work was done on that a few years ago, there wasn't a big big advantage, and it has quite a few drawbacks as well. Has any further reassessment been made of that model or not? No, we haven't at all. What we did previously was we looked at the cost of brick and high school quite a few years ago and run it under the MIM model. And I think we weren't having any advantage from the MIM model for brick and high school. I think we need to do it again. I think we need to run it again. The MIM has certain issues. First of all, they were looking for projects of over 100 million, so a large-scale project. They were looking to batch projects together. So I'm not sure it would suit our projects because we were always at a lower cost than the 100 million. Something we need to look at in any case. So, we will be doing that exercise as well. Catherine? Yeah, hi, sorry. I was just a question about additional learning needs, reading through. I can only see really in terms of looking at the ALM provision across powers. I can only see really comments in this strategy about Bryn Kower and developing the new school there. There's nothing that I can see about any kind of investment in developing any hubs anywhere else. Obviously, one of the aims for the ALM is to ensure that provision is as close as possible to our students. When looking at, say, for example, my children, I've got ones looking at it at the moment. You're looking at us of an hour's travel to get down to Bryn Kower, which I think is too much. I've been told by Sam Butler in head that he has space available immediately that they've identified that they can produce for a hub, but there's nothing in this strategy about heading towards that direction. Has that changed? Or is it just that it wasn't the place to put it in this paper? Is it separate ALM review happening currently? So I've mentioned the review. So, in terms of being more specific around ALM, I think we'll have to wait until the outcome of the review is there. But as I said, the program is flexible. In terms of ALM, we've got three special schools in the county. So Penn Mice is relatively new down in Brecken. Keter wine is opening soon, so we're going to be building for Keter wine, and then Brinshall is our other special schools. So in terms of the major investment for to support those, that already happening. Another way that we take account of ALM is through design, and Jim will be able to comment here. So within the design of schools, and I've seen it over time since I started working on this program, there's such a different approach now to ALM and the need for spaces within schools for pupils with ALM. And that's changed quite significantly from our very early days. Jim, do you want to come in there on sort of how can you approach that bit? So each of the new school designs has an ALM component. Again, it's about flexibility because solutions are not the same for particular places. Schools are obviously very in size, no two schools have been the same. The ALM requirements are not the same within each of them, but each of the schemes we've currently got in place has an ALM component that I think long-term will sit against the development of the kind of hub and spoke model that perhaps the school service might develop. Okay, thank you both. Councillor SOO. Thank you, Chair. Hi, Marianne. Hi, Jim. Good morning. I was just wondering, I think I mentioned it in one of the last meetings, last couple of meetings, about, I don't see anything here about the hub of Brindlauer, Brindlauer in Australian life. I know through attending governing bodies, and the school mice are there when where the site is, that sometimes things crop up with regards to repairs in that part of the school or things they need who pays for it. Do mice there when have to fork out or does it come through Brindlauer? There's still a lot of, not quite sure there really, but I'd like to know, is it a success, Marianne? Is it working? How many children do we have there? How much does it cost us in the authority to run that? I mean, I'm going to minimize there and bring completely in the dark about it. Okay, I haven't got that information, so I can get that for you from BLM colleagues, if that's okay. Yeah, you know, I'd like to know that it's work. I hope, I really hope it's working because we did need it here. I do see some youngsters out playing on the site when I pass by. They all look very happy, so I really do hope it's working. And I come back to what we were talking about having things built off site, Jim. I mean, I'd love to see that being done after what we went through in mice there when we had all those porta carbanes and everything for months and months on the site, and the cost to that must have been astronomical. So I really do welcome all these new innovations, and I'd like to see that in action as if we can, because there has to be a better way forward than what we went through in mice there. We went through no fault of yours, Jim, or our anybody authority. That was then, which was many years ago, but I'd like to see us going forward in a different way. Thank you, Chair. Thanks, Sue, Councillor Allyn. Sorry, again, Chair. As Scott Kedewain, we're meant to have a satellite, but decision was taken, I thought. But it's never materialised. I just mentioned that as well, and the fact that the PIU, they're looking at a different business model, clearly, that is the model will inform some of this thinking going forward as well, will it, Maria? Yes, if possible, and if the special funding is required, again, it's part of the ANN review, how we deliver the tools well. Haven't been specific out of the year, but it's all about flexibility. Okay. Anybody else wishing to make a comment? You were all very quiet this morning. Explain to me, Maria, on that you've got the three different objectives within the plan, and your preferred option is objective three. Why are objective one and objective two within the plan? Are they still options? Because the overall costings are done on objective three. The options, if you look at the options, the first option is around two minimums of delivering the projects that we currently have in design state, so essentially band B. And those are known. They're in design. They've been in design for quite a long time, and we're all in track with them. So that could have been, and this was a really realistic option, because it's a good state of the council finances. We were asking ourselves whether could we only afford to deliver those projects? We were, you know, really at that stage thinking, well, that's the very least we can deliver, and that's affordable, that's in the capital program. Should we just start with that? You can see option two then, option two, adds, it includes the project in option one, but it brings in more. So we then added in projects that would deliver the aspirations of the West, because we thought that that was a key criteria for the council strategically. So you can see there the addition of the Scotland Camarilla, and the Scotland Camarilla includes new bills in Trangrindot protect, and then a north through Welsh New Yearning bills. And all of this is obviously subject to cabinet approval to go to formal consultation and all the school reorganisation process. We've also bought in a Scarborough Carineon here as well, because we are currently in the objection period for changing the language category of local Carineon. So that hasn't concluded yet, and that would be subject to a cabinet decision. But a Scarborough Carineon is an all through school newly established in a few years ago, but operates across two sites, even though they're quite closely located, it's not the most efficient all through school model. So we brought that in there. Then the last option, option three, which is our good period option. It's the same, so it's option two, but building on it. So we bring in the project. So in we reloaded here to the transportation catchments. We've reviewed the transportation catchments. The outcome of the transportation catchment was a combination of school reorganisation and new bills. So that is added in as well. We've also, and I think this is important to note, and I've seen a little bit of this, but there's a layer of, actually, the option one do minimum deliver projects couldn't be in design stages, and it should also say, as it says in the cabinet paper, under any schools in condition D. So that covers that one. So the condition D element would be throughout all the options and within the preferred option. So the reason we thought that option three is a preferred option is because it just delivers our strategic aims and objectives from the strategy. It addresses more of the school conditions and it's flexible enough to be able to deal with anything that comes through or any further changes from any other school reviewers, etc. So that's really the reasoning for option three being the preferred option. But I have to say we did start with a serious consideration. Can we only afford to do what we currently doing? Okay. Thank you, Marianne. I'm not clarifying that. I've got all it in a Councillor Bryn waiting, but I'd just like to develop that a bit further. So if this paper goes towards cabinet, they could still choose objective one. They could. Our recommendation is opportunity. I'm just thinking from a financial point of view, and obviously we know that what council finances are right across Wales, there could be consideration. I slightly worry about considering that you've said it's linked to the transformation process, but like objective three, if you take the slumber slant catchment area, things are already progressing in that matter. And then if objective three didn't go through, it would leave areas, already closure of slant get wind school. And if objective three wasn't chosen, that area is going to be left wanting really. Can I come back in on that? I think I'll bring James in here as well. We've profiled the program over 12 years rather than the nine years because we think, you know, are we going to achieve everything in option three within nine years? I would say, probably not, and can be afforded to deliver within the nine years. So in terms of ensuring that we can afford it, we've extended the profile. And I'm sure many other authorities would be doing the same and in the same situation. I think what cabinet we need to consider is if we don't do this, what happens to our school state? It's close the economy, isn't it? So given the scale of the issues that our schools are facing, I'm recommending very strongly, you know, we go with the preferred option and maximize as much of that three hundred million as we as we can. I don't know, James, do you want to come in? Do you want to give a perspective from finance, James? Yeah. So, well, of course, the first schemes in option one are already in the capital program. As we get into option two and three, the business case at each stage will develop the needs for the school, what the school's, what need is there, or what type of school, how big the school, what the costs are involved, how it will, what costs are there. It's quite difficult at this stage to get all of those costs nailed down because there's so many variables going forward. You know, there's a commitment in the capital program, I think of a certain amount per year towards continuing school's transformation. And as it gets to that point in time, hopefully, we'll see how we can fund each of the stages through those business cases. And, you know, I think at that point, the business cases will make their own cases. Of course, we're assuming that Welsh Government will fund the percentage of this as well, that they, you know, at 65%, that would be a substantial hit. So, if Welsh Government weren't there as well, so we need, there's lots of things to fall into place for us to be able to afford to fund all of these things. But it's great to have such an ambitious plan, have things in place and to work to these points and give us somewhere to work to. Okay, thank you very much both. Councillor ALLAN. I think Britain was in front of me. Oh, right. Councillor Britain, I did inform everybody, we do have Welsh translation today, so if you wish to speak in Welsh, Britain, please do so. Councillor ALLAN. Councillor ALLAN. Councillor ALLAN. Councillor ALLAN. Councillor ALLAN. Councillor ALLAN. Councillor ALLAN. Councillor ALLAN. Councillor ALLAN. Councillor ALLAN. Councillor ALLAN. Councillor ALLAN. Councillor ALLAN. Councillor ALLAN. Councillor ALLAN, I'm not sure if there's room for three buildings in the northeast corner of Welsh Pool. I still think that one Welsh medium school bilingual education for everybody and one English medium school would suffice for that corner of northeast Wales, but I'm usually shot down for such controversial ideas, so I'll leave it at that. Okay, but do you have the opportunity to make your part and I'm sure everybody's listening. Councillor ALLAN. Can we go forward and look at the actual proposals themselves in the documents where those three blocks are highlighted there really, and how that ties in with sustainable powers, because in other forums we are told that's who need to be a minimum size, second schools need to be minimum size of 550 children, primary schools, potentially 110 minimum places. So you're talking about in tick of 150 in secondary schools and there's acknowledgement that's possibly not possible in Welsh medium and that could be done to 120 and also it goes around the six form. How does this all tie to gather? Because from the proposals on age 58, it looks as though we're maintaining all the current schools. Askel Talon-Kamri is a big issue as well. You've got two high schools there, six miles apart. You're going to have a Welsh medium one and I don't. The previous cabinet definitely did not take this decision. I got a feeling offices took this decision in the run up to the last election. It hasn't been challenged by the current cabinet. From my view, you should have a Welsh medium school in Aperronde, in Brecken, developed the Welsh primary school there to have an all through Welsh medium school. So it serves people as center bridge. At the moment they have been ignored and they're having to go out to a county for their Welsh medium education. So that is a big mistake within this. How can you maintain two secondary schools within two different towns so close together. It goes across powers on various areas of the map. So how does this tie in to sustainable powers? I don't think it does. I really don't. I cannot see in order to deliver those options that for GCSEs, you have got a certain number of children within that cohort for that complete choice of options. This is just reinforcing the same old same old. Do you need a Welsh medium school in David Thuit to be all through? Clearly they have knock on impacts on other areas. But if I'm real concerned about the long term view of this program and those that's outlined in on pages 58, 59 and 60 to start with, when was that decision made to make the both campus where I signed to be a Welsh medium school all through school. And also the role of proposals about taking away the Welsh stream set of schools. So schools would be either Welsh medium or bilingual, as it would say, or English schools. So there's discussion around that as well. And the place based planning approach has been taken to community councils and discussed with town and community councils as well. So there is a lack of coherence between the two different schemes. You know, I'll just add that and reading the document. Obviously we've got some long term problems and catchment areas. And if we were truthful, we'd address these in our transfer motion program sooner. I think we perhaps are providing some solutions to those catchment areas which we've developed in the transformation. I think perhaps we then have stood still and we've got an opportunity to be here with the sustainable powers to take it one step further. And I don't think we're tying up the long term solutions beyond that. We're still only picking up on those transformation catchment problems which we had. And one of them, transformation catchment areas is slam off. And all of a sudden we're looking at 2030 on that. So maybe that may be out to date by then. So maybe it does need a little bit more long term objectives on it. Marianne, don't wish to add too much to Alice, but yeah, that was just my thoughts as well. Okay, can I just respond? I'll start with Kalan Kumbri. The aspiration for us for Kalan Kumbri and we're talking about Kalan Kumbri is a new building. That hasn't gone through this current cabinet, but that will be coming to this cabinet within the next implements. So within this program, apart from those that are currently in design, everything else is aspirational and will have to be based upon cabinet, cabinet decision, or any statutory process is required, any, and then the business case. So there have to be a lot of decision making points throughout the journey. And if you are familiar with the Sustainable Publicist Model, we're looking at the four core hub areas. And I think this, this plan here is moving along that line, because within the four hub areas, we have to make sure that first of all we address Welsh Media. A Welsh Media needs to be understood that some of the Welsh Media secondary provision, if we are moving toward that model, will be smaller than sort of the minimum size of the secondary school that we're working to. So we need that. So I think this is that is in this plan. Plus then there are other things, such as the need for investment in Kalumbkumbri, because Kalumbkumbri is in desperate stage of situation anyway, in terms of the building. So I think it does, and I think as well, if you look at things like the Brecken primary school development, that is within Sustainable Power, it's in Brecken, it's bringing together three schools into one. And if you look at the Shambashin catchment, that again is based on bringing together a number of schools. So I think in terms of the broader Sustainable Powerist Model, if you think about sustainability, this does address it, but you do need to make sure that it's phased and you're addressing your Welsh Media, you're addressing the rationalization of schools, and you're addressing the poor condition of building. I think going forward, because of the flexibility within it, we will need to make sure that the transformation strategy and this plan and sustainable power is all aligned, because if there are any further changes going to happen, which we're developing more all age schools, or if we're looking at post 16, for example, we will need to make sure that there's flexibility within this program to attract the capital needs. Okay, Chris, I appreciate you being waiting a long time. I'm going to bring up. Can I just come in first, just quickly. You know, it's a shame that Portfolioholder isn't here today, because it is his report, after all. But I want to seek assurance that Welsh Media streams will not be removed from high schools. That's a question for the Portfolioholders, I'm not going to answer on this behalf, but the West is very clear in terms of the ambition to improve Welsh Media provision and improve access to Welsh Media provision. And in a county such a palace, we have to consider all models. The Welsh Media, you know, designated Welsh Media plus the availability of streams, because of access. Okay. I do agree with you, Marianne, but that's still like that answer. Maybe we can write to the Portfolioholder. Thank you. Thanks, Alex. I'll come to you, Chris. That's the question. Thank you, and thank you, Chair. It's an interesting conversation going on, and I'm not fully familiar with educational funding, as some of the others on this call are. So some of this is about increasing my knowledge in some of the questions that I've got. On page 50 of the SOP, there is a table in there, which has got different levels of funding on, and there's one in-cycle school, church funding, and that comes in in the latter years with about 1.8 million identified. One is that I wanted to just understand why is that later, and how does that come in, and is that only addressing for church schools, or is it's not got any form of caveat on it at all? Or is that available to all of the schools in this overall project scope? Again, on that same page, there is a mention about the assumption of that not being liable. Can you give me clarity and assurance that that is the case, because if it isn't, there's an additional cost that we have to factor in. I always get concerned when people assume something, because that's not necessarily the case, although a lot of this is about modeling, so we put that in there. And again, there was a reference earlier, I think, at the beginning of the background about implications for inflation. Inflation has thankfully started to come down, which is welcomed, but there are implications that inflation may be going back up again, and particularly in sectors where we've got the construction industry seems a bit more resistant to move in the same way. So I just wanted some assurances that looking at the different options and models, have we considered that factor in? And then finally, they mentioned about the timber-based construction and different options. Have we looked at the longevity of those type of new constructions based on the traditional? And do we ensure that we're going to get value for money by going down those routes, and I'll stop there, Chair? Thanks, Chris. I think I know the answer to the first one, but I'm sure my marriage, I could deliberate a lot more eloquently than I can. Go on, go ahead, Mara. Yeah, I'll bring in James as well on the part and inflation, and Jim on the value for money and timber, et cetera. Quite simply, the Church funding there alludes to one of the recommendations from the assembly interview was a new Church Wales primary school to replace two other primary schools. So the way the funding works, Welsh Government provides additional funding for Church schools, one created school in particular, so it's a different rate. So James, that's what that eludes to. So it's specifically to one Church Wales school at the Melbourne campaign. Anybody make a comment on the V80? I assume it's in relation to new bills. Can I compare that? Yeah, I'll pick that one up. So the council is subject to something called partial exemption, and it's something that our VAT officer could spend hours explaining to you. He spent hours explaining to me, and I still haven't quite got it. He's the expert, so we'll go back to that. It's something where we actually don't charge V80 on some services that we provide, and if we reach a certain limit within three or four years, I believe, we may have to charge VAT or not be able to reclaim VAT on certain things. It's just highlighted in the report as something that we could come across. It's not something we've come across yet, and it's not something we expect to come across, but we have to just detail it in there that it is something that we could hit whilst we don't expect it to. Inflation, again, this is sort of, we've used current costs here for similar high schools, and that. Again, there's lots of ifs and buts to weigh in here. Inflation is currently going down, make it back up, make it down. We've got different borrowing costs. We've got, again, the business cases and each point at the relevant point in time for each of the schools going forward, we'll consider that, we'll consider construction costs, the different methods that Jim can outline, as outlined. We'll all have different costs, so we've just given a best guess estimate at this point in time. We haven't tried to factor in too much because this is just an outline plan. When we get to doing the detailed business cases, that's when the more detailed costings will come in, and that's when we'll start to build those sort of things in. Okay, thank you very much. I've got nobody else waiting. Councillor BRINN had his hand up, but I think we've lost him, to be honest with you. Councillor BRINN is still with us. Anybody? There's a question, Jay, on valuable money from timber frames. Okay, if I perhaps come in on that one, the choice of structural frames should have no impact on the score. There's only these new scores to improve teaching outcome, and the frame itself should be very subservient. So the occupants of the building shouldn't be aware of the frame choice, and we've used a variety of techniques from traditional through steel frame and timber frame in recent years. Long ever to encast or always taking into account, as part of that, timber frame currently got some distinct advantages, particularly against local supply chains, which are well supported in the timber frame industry, and also in terms of the carbon agenda, both in terms of energy efficiency in the operation of the building. So we can get very thick timber frame walls, so it's not just little sticks on the outside there, engineered trusses which are packed with insulation that provide good whole life insulation for the score. And we're also looking at cross-liminate timber frames, which are much more substantial. So there's a whole variety even within the timber frame, but yes, I'll give you the assertion we're looking at, the cost benefit analysis of that over the life of the building. Thank you, Jim. Councillor Jabb. Yeah, just like that. Have we got any timber frames schools now, and what is, if so, what's the oldest one we've got? Oh, that's testing people now, Joe, Jim. We have, shall I write a mocknet? It is probably the oldest, which Councillor Howard will remember the year. That was probably built in 2008. It was the open one in my first year as a Councillor. Is it showing signs of age in a weathery now, or are you happy to take the test of time? No, it looks good. It's a slightly complicated roof, but architects like Jim, shouldn't teach Jim. It's not like, I tend to design things like sheepshards, but Jim has more subtlety than I do. There's more problem with the pellets to woodburner over the years. That has been an issue. But other aspects of the, you know, it's a pleasant atmosphere when you're inside. There's no data at this. It's like Chris said, there's a false economy. If it's not, then we need to make sure they're going to last before we don't know that road. And one plea from me is, when you're building, make the classrooms an extra meter wide, because it always feels very tight within the classroom. I know the teacher does tend to fill it with everything, doesn't matter what the size of the room is. But sometimes these modern classrooms do feel quite tight, but that's just me being big and fat. Marianne, there's sticking the foundations in now before we've even been through the paper. Councillor Danny. Thank you. The key benefit to timber frame, in my opinion, is the speed of what you can move. Once you've got the frame up and the roof on, all the trades are in at once. You're inside and you're outside, it's going on all at the same time. So there's very little downtime, if any, to be honest. Thank you. Thanks, Councillor Danny. Just on time skills, time frames. I understand the financial commitment and I understand that. But when you consider the sandbuffling catchment area, and when we're looking at 2030 now, Marianne, I'm only making the point. We've been in this transformation project for some time. When I was Chair of Governors in Thumbaffin, we were heavily involved in a new building. I totally understand that 2030 seems an awful long way out. And it also, a lot of children have passed through that school before we've got some solutions. And we know the Thumbaffin catchment area has got some massive problems. Plants and pride schools is overwhelmed with people. We've got some out of Clang Edmond School closing now. We've got some out of that time school with really bad conditions going. And I can go through that time. I can go through many other schools in that area. But 2030 seems a long way out. And I don't really know if it needs an answer because I know it's all down to finance, et cetera, et cetera. But we do have pupils in that area who are not receiving the education which they deserve. And that's not from a teacher's point of view, but that's from a building point of view. So I don't know what else we can say on that, but yeah, understand where we are, but obviously be wrong of us not to point out it seems a long way out. Councillor David. Thank you, Chair. If I may, I'd just like to comment on some of the points that we've made so far at a high level. Obviously, I can't speak on behalf of the carbonate and carbonate will have to make a decision on this paper. But it's clear that the recommendation of option three, it's an attractive option. But yes, you know, we've got to accept that it is highly ambitious. And I think that in itself will certainly put a lot of emphasis on not just the educational side of it, which Councillor Pete would be far better to address than myself, but certainly on the finance side of it. I think James has gone quite some way to explain where we will be with that around the fact that everything might be closely monitored going forward because of the very volatile and uncertain economic financial situation we currently in and we don't know how that's going to work its way in the future. What is clear with regard to Councillor Chris's comments around in inflation, yes, it is coming down. And I think the projections are from economists that it'll come down to the Bank of England target of about 2% by mid-summer. But then I think that there's a lot of evidence to suggest that it'll start increasing again. And a lot of that is down to the geopolitical events that are happening, particularly around energy, et cetera. We've still got very, very high inflation in the labour market. And obviously, core inflation, let's not lose that figure that's still sitting at about 4.2%. So there is a lot of uncertainty there. On top of that, as James mentioned, you've got interest rates that would have to keep a very, very close eye on as well. And to be quite frankly, look at what's happening in America. It suggests that interest rates aren't going to start falling as rapidly in this country as we'd hoped to see them dropping. So that just emphasizes the fact that whereas this is a highly ambitious program, that's commendable. And I think it reflects what we want to achieve within sustainable powers, although I accept Councillor Alice's points that there's some concern around exactly where this does fit. But all I'd say there is that we need to remember as well that sustainable powers is going to be an ongoing process. And I'd like to think that it's a new culture that the authority will adopt once we finish the initial phase of it, going forward. So in a sense, it's a period of continual change, and looking at new ways of delivering things better for our residents. So I just want to emphasize the fact that I'm sitting here chairs a cabinet member for finance. I'm listening very, very closely to what you've got to say. I'm sure you'll put your recommendations and concerns around the paper to carbon it before they deliberate on it. And obviously, the fact that I'm here, I can actually give some first-hand information with regard to the concerns you're expressing. So, thank you, Chair. Thanks, Councillor David. And thanks for that clarity. It's really helpful to have some perspective from the cabinet there, which I'm sure helps. Members, any further questions? Yes. Richard, welcome to our meeting. I believe this is your first scrutiny meeting. I should have welcomed you in the beginning of the meeting. Thank you for joining us. And we certainly look forward to working with you. But thanks for joining us today. Yeah, thanks very much. I'll talk about Councillor Guindo. Yeah, again, my first meeting. So, I don't want to leave it past without saying something. First of all, thank you to Marianne for the team for the huge amount of work that's gone into this. I think for me, essentially, I've listened in so far today. It is an ambitious plan. I think the clear alignment with the Welsh Government strategy is a really important part of this work. So, it's good to see that there. You know, Councillor ALLID spoke about the need for pace and the need for urgency, which we all now properly understand. And I think when we look at the three tranches of the work or the three waves of the work, I think we will feel pace and speed gather through those three movements. And then just the final point I wanted to make was clearly the importance of, you know, sustainable power, being the foundations of all that we're doing at the moment. You know, when Councillor David's speaking about the culture change, which is happening in the authority, but the alignment to the transforming education strategy clearly is going to be crucial. And there is a little bit of thinking that needs to be done in sync. And I think in the cabinet session where we present our ideas around transforming education in the context of sustainable powers, this SOC will then, you'll start to see where it sits as well. And just the last point for me as well is just, I think, to emphasize the importance of, you know, working with our school leaders and our governing bodies around local change, because that's where you start to feel the ownership and ultimately, you know, the buy in from our communities. But, Joach about, and thanks so much. Thank you, Richard. Councillor Allard. Thank you. I'm just wearing my hat, my finance panel hat for a moment. I know that governance and audit and finance panel have been pushing for a 10-year capital program to be settled outside the budget every year, which will obviously be reviewed every year. And I think this, you know, the Welsh Government's 90-year plan, the 12-year plan that Mariana's outlined really does suggest that we need to have that long-term view when we're setting out the budget papers in the spring. So I think that I'd like this committee to reinforce that as well. It does give a sense of direction. And the school's building program is probably the biggest element of any capital working program that I see within, within powers. It far outweighs any other capital programming, even highways. So I'd like to see that pushed. And thank you, David, for being here this morning. It is terribly important inflation and the costs of delivery, but these sort of 12-year program. And it's very, very difficult to make that judgment. But so far ahead, of course, there's a bit of volatility currently. It's setting down, but who knows what's around the corner and we have to be nimble on our feet going forward and adjust to the climate that's prevailing at the time. So maintaining the maximum flexibility with any of these long-term programs is essential. It is really essential. And also what is essential is keeping the pupils at the forefront of our minds that learn their entitlements. That's my fellow portfolio holder from a couple of years ago, kept on banging on about the entitlement of the pupils in powers is as important as any other part of Wales. So we have got to get this right about making sure that they've got a fantastic environment to learn in. And that environment also supports this teaching staff as well. A lot of the issues and the strains and stresses on the management team within the schools is because of the aging buildings we have and the making do, you know, and Maria, I'm touched at the beginning, we've got to calculate the price of doing nothing as well. It's important to understand that. So thank you. Thank you, Chair. Thanks, Alex. I think there's some good conclusions there, actually. So are there any other questions on that item? No. Members, before we move up it, I would like to draw up some conclusions so that recommendations which go to cabinet, really, have been making a few points as we go through. I think one of the big points that has been made today is that it has to be aligned with sustainable powers. Is everybody that? You know, Marianne has explained that it is, but I think it's clear that that has to be the objective going forward. It has to be aligned with the transformation policy. It has to be aligned with sustainable powers. It also has to be aligned with the development of the Welsh language. And by saying that, Marianne, I'm not saying that the paper doesn't say that, but those are some important conclusions which we recognize today. Mr. Chair, I don't think it does, but that's my decision. Yeah, well, no, I'm asking. You know, Marianne clearly said that they've tried to do that, and that's the point that we're making. We don't believe they are at this stage, but it's a moving face, doesn't it? Anything else? Anybody else would like to add to that? No, those three conclusions which we will recommend to carbonate, and perhaps an opportunity to develop that with them in their carbonate discussions when they bring it. Yeah. Sorry, Chair, for putting it in. I'm just slightly frustrated by the lack of options. It's almost an ongoing conclusion about where the Welsh medium school will be, etc., etc. rather than look at the whole of of powers, the education footprint within powers, but where we need to be within sort of 15, 20 years, and whether this does take us in the right direction, or will we have to swerve again and change directions likely again in certain years time, because it's not it's not delivering that's much longer term objective. It's been an underlying theme of scrutiny that the overall vision, and we're not actually capturing that, Dr. Richard did say in his presentation, or in his few words, he did say that it was important that we took into everybody's suggestions and ideas within local catchments at that moment in time, but yes, I'll let that overall vision still a little bit unclear, and we're not sure whether this captures it. Councillor BRANDt. Hi, yes. Dels. I'm looking forward to it. Yes, I'm done. Yes, yes, yes, yes, do you have Madrookani, but we have to have a pattern online here when it's on. [SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] [SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] [SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Okay, that blinks with Councillor Ali's point in relation to the overall vision. We're not sure that this captures it and the direction in which education in powers is moving. Yes? Yes, yes. All right, then. If everybody's happy then, that concludes item five. Thanking everybody for attending on that one. Thank you, officers, for taking your time. I think it's a really, really interesting paper, and I'll let you open it up by saying, yes, he welcomes the timeliness of it, so it's great that it has come before us now. Item, I'm just looking at the agenda now. I'm trying to find it. Right, that concludes the business of today now, but members would like to stay on after. We can have a quick chat about different things, but that concludes the business. So thank everybody for their attendance today and members of the committee and I extend that invite to the finance panel as well, if they want to stay down for a bit of committee reflection, more than happy to do so. So thanks everybody for attending. We'll see you at our next meeting. Thank you. Talk about it.