Transcript

The general introduction just to make sure that we're compliant with language standards and things. So, (speaks in foreign language) (speaks in foreign language) So, really grateful to you for your time and presence in the meeting. So, thank you very much indeed all of you for your time and your presence in the meeting. The very first meeting of the subgroup of the CJC. Just to give you a very quick background bit of information about it. The CJC is a new piece of legislation set by what's government. It has had its challenges along the journey to be set in legislation. There were a few financial challenges, shall we say, that required some intervention from UK Treasury. We've also had some differences of opinion about what exactly is required within the CJC. The intention originally was that it would be under the tool in the armory if required and it could be as big or as small as the partner organizations wanted to take advantage of it. But, contained within the legislation itself, it said quite clearly that there were three statutory component parts, regional transport, regional economic development and strategic development planning. So, those are the three pillars that legislation and the pins it. The differences between CJC's across Wales are dependent on scale and size of the number of authorities involved with it. So, when you look at a partnership of two that we've got between us and Powis, between Carnegie Union and Powis, it's true to say that we've got an excellent work in relationship between the two local authorities and we've had in place an inter-authority agreement that Clive Pinni set up for us several years ago and that's been the foundation for us to build our partnership working on. The CJC brings in another alternative type of governance arrangement, but within that governance arrangement, there is quite a bit more bureaucracy linked to it. And if we were in a partnership of six, seven, eight local government authorities, you could see there would be a huge benefit in having that as a facility. For us, there's a lot of bureaucracy involved and there's an awful lot of duplication involved because we don't need to authorities, we've already got all of the necessary alignment with policies and paperwork already. So, there are elements of this where it is quite bureaucratic what we have to do, but nevertheless, as it's set in legislation, we have to run a CJC that is legally compliant with all requirements, including subgroups around standards as well. So that's generally the background of it. Forgive me, I should have introduced myself right to the beginning. I'm Avian, I'm the lead chief executive for the CJC for this year. We've got a rolling program arranged between the leader of poets and the leader of Caddy Gunn and the chief exec of poets and the chief exec of Caddy Gunn, where we've altered it on an annual basis, the lead roles so we can share the responsibilities. And so, I'm the lead chief exec this year, so Councillor James Gibson, what is the lead leader for the CJC this year from poets? So, I support James and then Emma Palmer with me supporting Brian Davis, where we've gone through the next AGM and we're ready to hand over in that context. So, one of the legal requirements for this, of course, is to set up then a formal subcommittee for standards, and in order to be able to do that, obviously, we brought you all together and as representatives between both Caddy Gunn and poets, the subgroups that exist in the arrangements within both authorities. And what we did for the purpose of this meeting and the initial scene setting is to try and establish the next subgroup for the CJC. So, if I run through the agenda, I'm only going to go as far as agenda item 4, and when I get to agenda item 4, my last responsibility is to lead the process to appoint a chair for the role. Once I've done the chair, the chair can then appoint a vice chair. I'll be handing over that point for that to happen. So, if I start with apologies, the chief exec from poets Emma has apologized. Carwyn Jones Evans has also apologized. I'm not sure if anybody else, we need to record anybody else. Stephen Hayes from poets, you want to comment? Sorry. Sorry. No, no, no. I apologize. You're here. I'm going to ask how this committee will relate to the standards committees of each code again and powers. Stephen, this is a totally and utterly separate entity. Right. But it seems as though, from reading it, that we could be hearing cases and so on, which as soon as what standards make you do. It's exactly the same, but Stefan, the main difference is that the number of members of the CJC is very limited, consisting of the leaders of both local authorities plus Gareth Ratcliffe from the National Parks. There are only three members and therefore the possibility of, well, the possibility of having a actual code of conduct hearing is, I hope, is going to be very, very remote. So we're like an oversight group, effectively? No, you want to stand as committee exactly the same, but you want to stand as committee for the CJC, consisting of those three members. And that's why Avion said this is a bureaucratic nightmare. You can imagine if we were 6, 7, 8, or if we go down to the southeast, for example, the little 11 local authorities in that partnership. So plus the National Park representative, so then the likelihood of challenges that you'd need to consider coming in then are far greater, where we've only got three individuals that sit on the CJC, it does feel like bureaucratic overload, I've got to be honest, but it's just started to requirement for us to do so. It probably seemed a good idea to start with, but the practicalities of it probably are a step too far, but we still have to comply. Yeah, thank you, Avion, thanks, live. Nicola? Thank you, Avion, it's just an apology as well from Carol Edwards, please. Right, okay, great, thanks. So in item three, a scooter, I mean, just if anybody that took me out of the door there, I will be the thoughts on it at the beginning. So the first task, and the final task I'll have, is the players at task go up, I didn't share, so are there any nominations? And if there are no nominations, there'll be any volunteers. Chit, chit, chit, chit, chit, should we introduce ourselves? Yeah, we have a good idea. All right, I'll start there. I'm an independent member. Yeah, yeah, I'm an independent member for the power, I chair power standards. Committee, however, I've only got nine months left. So it's possibly, I should put myself over with them. Okay, thanks. Councillors, you don't move, so Liz. Sorry about that, yeah, Councillors, I'm representing Brecken East on Power Scanter Council, and I'm one of those people that's not eligible to be the chair of the vice chair, so I don't need to think about it. Gwynn Wigley, or Anne's, please? Yeah, Gwynn Wigley, I'm the Councillor for Thundrusted, and I'm on the standards committee in Canada Green, and Councillor Gwynn, can I ask you to put your microphone down but near your mouth, because you're very, very happy. It's great, you're quite right. It's far away, the Thundrusted, and I'm on the standards committee in Canada Green, and as a Councillor, I'm not eligible either. Okay, Geoff, Russell, please? Yes, Rasta Fertoli, I'm an independent lay member with Power's Standards Committee alongside Stephen. I'm just a member of the group. Okay, lovely, great. Gail, please. Hello, yes, I'm Gail Store, an independent member of the Standards Committee for Cara Digion. I'm currently the Deputy Chair for this committee, and I was the Deputy Chair for the Fire and Standards Committee before I was on this committee. Okay, thank you. I think everybody else is present now, are officers from both Canada and Paris, am I correct in that, do you want us to introduce the officers to you all, or are you happy just to proceed to Appointed Chair? Appointed Chair, okay, lovely, Geoff. So I've got on the basis of what we've just heard, there are only two candidates who can stand for Chair and Vice Chair, which are namely Russell and Gail. Yeah, so, Geoff, do I either of you fudge the job? Gail, you're on move, sorry Gail. Yes, I'm happy to do that. I'm happy to call in for you. Russell, would you be happy with that? Absolutely. Absolutely, I think, at the moment, I haven't checked. But I'm pretty sure that my time with the Standards Committee is perhaps near an end, I'm not sure, but yes, very happy with Gail to step forward and take on the Chair. Well, congratulations, Gail, and I'm delighted as well, because I can now hand over to you to a point of Vice Chair, and I don't think you've got much choice on that one either. So over to you Gail. Thank you very much. Okay, Vice Chair, are we between Stephen and Russell? Technically, that's correct, Chair. Yes. Does anybody on the rest of the Committee want to nominate anybody? No, okay. Would either of you like to volunteer? Could I just mention that I think Russell, you can go on for long, I think you've done about three years, and the maximum is nine years, which is what I'm coming from. So if you wanted to continue, again, it would make more sense than, as I've definitely got to finish in January of February. Are you happy to do that, Russell? I'm happy to continue, if that's the choice of the Standards Committee. I'm pretty limited on public office experience, and I've had quite a few meetings with the Standard Committee, but I'm not sure if I'm suitably qualified to take on Vice Chair. I'm not quite sure what my responsibilities would be to you, but if it has to be, I'm happy in order that this organization, as is being set up, can at least be born and take it forward from there. Thank you, Russell. Thank you, Russell. That's great. So we can bring on your experience as we go along anyway, so we won't overwhelm you with anything to start with. Okay, I would like to propose that Russell is the Deputy Chair, would somebody second that? I'll second that. Thank you. Please show of hands, everybody in agreement? Yes, Chair. Thank you. Okay, welcome, Malcolm Russell as Vice Chair. Thank you very much. Right. The next item on the agenda is the confirmation that members have undertaken code of conduct training with Carradigion and Powery's County Councils. So, Chair, the reason for this is a requirement for all members of the Standards Committee to have undertaken code of conduct training. If required, we would, if members have not been trained, which I'd be surprised if they haven't been, but if they haven't been trained, we'd have to undertake our own training for a thoughtful member. So that's the purpose of this. To make sure whether or not we need to undertake the specialist training. So is anybody aware that they haven't undergone all the training? No? No? No. Thank you, Chair. Thank you. Thank you, members. Thank you. That's great. So, agenda number six, statutory guidance on the role of subcommittees, has everybody received that? Yes. Chair, I put this item on the agenda, because I'm sure that all members would have received a copy of the statutory guidance. The relevant section relating to the role of the Standards Committee is set out on pages 28 to 29 on that document, and I thought it would be a good thing from the start of this committee to be reminded of what you've already read out, no doubt you've read. Yeah. That's great. It was interesting when I got the information and looked at that, and I thought, yeah, that's good to remind ourselves before we begin of what we're actually doing. So everyone's happy with that, presumably. Yeah. Yep. So we're moving on then to item number seven, which is the report of the monitoring officer. So if I can hand you over, hand us over to the monitoring officer. Thank you. Thank you very much, Chair. I should have introduced myself right at the start of this meeting. My name is Clyde Pinney. I'm the monitoring officer for the CJC, and also the monitoring officer for Powers County Council. Members from Powers will, of course, know me, and we're looking forward to working with other members from Canada again, so good afternoon, everybody. And having said that, Chair, I must make an apology right at the start, because the first section of my report is inaccurate, good gosh, what a way to start. I'm not sure how I did it, but I copied and pasted the wrong version of the terms of reference of the standard committee, and I've used the previous version, and not the one I should have. So the first section of it, sections 1, 2, and 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 are inaccurate, Chair. So what I'm supposed to do is show on screen the correct version, if you would mind. Just bear with me as a second, please. He says. Hopefully members, they'll be coming on screen. I've lost sight of you now, so I can't see anybody. So please tell me when you can see, okay, thank you so much. So Chair, you'll see that the composition of the Standards Committee consists of two independent members, independent lay members from each of the Standards Committees of Powers and Canada again, together with one Councillor from the Standards Committee of each Authority. Chair, in addition to that, there is one member from the Standards Committee of Black and Beacons National Park and at this moment in time they haven't yet nominated that individual. Members remember that Black and Beacons National Park have, I think it's four authorities which they're contributing to, so it is somewhat difficult for them. You'll see from the next section that the term of office for lay members for this committee at a point for the period of not less than four years and not more than six, but they can be reappointed, which is the point which Councillor—which Stephen Hayes indicated earlier on. Chair, I should have mentioned that these are in essence taken from the terms of reference for the Powers Standards Committee and which have been approved by Ellen on behalf of Councillors of the Standards Committee who will have a term of office of no more than five years until the next ordinary election. Chair, for the reasons which I mentioned earlier on, namely that there are only three members of the CJC, meetings of the Standards Committee are only required to be at least once annually. We can certainly have more, but I would hope that we have meetings as or when we're required, but at least once a year. Chair, you'll see that the quorum of the Standards Committee is three members, including the Chair, and at least half the members present must be lay members which they are today. Each member of the Standards Committee is entitled to vote and decisions of the Standards Committee by majority decision, so majority of the votes cast at the—and present at that meeting. If there is a tie in the vote chair, the Chair of the Standards Committee has a second and casting vote. You'll see Chair—we've already dealt with this in nominating the Chair of Vice Chair this morning. This afternoon, the Chair of the Standards Committee must be an independent member and so must be the Deputy Chair. If the Chair is absent, then the Vice Chair automatically takes over, and if both are absent, then the Committee will be required to elect a member to chair the meeting from those present at that meeting. Chair, the roles and functions are set out in Section F7 of Section 650 of the Constitution of the CJC. The roles are to promote high standards of conduct by members, to assist members to observe the code of conduct, and advising the CJAC on the adoption or revision of the members' code of conduct. Come on to the second Chair. Monitoring and the operation of the members' code of conduct, advising on training and arranging the trained members, granting dispensations, dealing with reports from a case tribunal or interim case tribunal, and any reports to the monitoring officer referred to that officer by the Public Service Ombudsman for Wales. Overseeing the CJC's whistleblower regime, providing advice to individual members on issues such as treatment of personal interest and conduct matters generally, determining the appropriate action on matters referred to it by the Public Service Ombudsman for Wales, overseeing the register of members and officers, overseeing the CJC's rules and protocols on accountability for members, overseeing the attendance of members of development meetings, and as soon as practicable at the end of each announcement of the year to make an annual report to the CJC. Chair, all those issues are common to what is required in both Kennedy again and and powers. Chair, unless there's any further questions with regard to that, as I said, this is based upon the rules set out in powers but have been approved by Ellen on behalf of Kennedy again. Thank you, that's great. I'm going to come out of that for a second, Chair. I hope I stopped sharing. Yes, that's great. You're back on. Thank you very much. So, Chair, section B of my report sets out the code of conduct for members. As I said, it's based upon the powers version but approved by Ellen. You'll see that the code of conduct is set out in my report at pages 8 to 36. I'm not intending at this moment in time to go through all those pages. Those members in powers will know it very well and I'm sure that the member from Kennedy again will also know, because it's based upon the code of conduct, which is appointed nationally by the recommended by the public service owners for Wales and West government. So, it's based on a national code. Right, yes. Thank you very much. Chair, in normal reports, which I sent to our Standards Committee and this is based upon which has been delivered to the Standards Committee in Paris. I would normally report on general standards issues but of course, as this is the first meeting, there are none of those to report. I would also report on referrals to the Ombudsman. I'm pleased to say there have been then to date and along that may remain the position. We have not received any requests for dispensation and in normal terms, Chair, I'm sure this will be familiar to members from both Kennedy and in Paris. The Ombudsman has an online function which is our findings, which covers all sorts of things which the Ombudsman does. Chair, I normally just remind members of the availability of that link so that if you want to go and investigate and have a look around that website, it's there for members to take place. Similarly, Chair, I always refer to the adjudication panel for Wales. Members will be aware that in terms of sanctions, should you have be required to give a sanction for a breach of code of conduct which this committee has found to be existed. This committee has only has the power to suspend for up to six months. Anything more serious, the Ombudsman usually referred and always referred to the adjudication of panel for Wales which has its own judge and decisions of the adjudication of panel Wales are set out in that link, Chair, so I provide a copy of that link for any member who feels the urge to go in and look at it. The last item on my report is the minutes of the National Forum for Standards Committee which met early on in January of this year. The minutes, Chair, of that meeting are set, are set start at page 37 and go on to page 44. I know that Stephen Hayes from Stephen Hayes from powers attended the meeting. I'm not sure whether anybody Green or yourself attended on behalf of Kennedy on. No, I'm not sure. I didn't attend. I don't think so. I think it's every two years, I think. There's a standards forum meeting on a national level attended by most standards committees from all across Wales. The minutes are there of what was discussed, Chair. Again, I hadn't intended to go through the minutes in detail, but I'm sure that Stephen or myself will be able to answer the questions which members have with regard to those minutes. Yes, if anyone's got any questions, then you can ask Stephen and Clive now. No, okay. Chair, well, that brings an end to my report. The next meeting, as you'll see, is to be announced. The terms of reference for the Standards Committee is that we meet annually. I suspect that we probably need to meet more more frequently than that, and my initial suggestion would be, and of course, it is subject to the will of this committee. I suggest that we have another one in six months time. Yes, I think that's ideal. I think this is a new committee. I think it would be good to meet again, before performance. Chair, if it's acceptable to the committee, we will arrange another of these meetings in about six months time, and we'll then reflect upon how frequently we should have it going on from there. As I said, and right at the start, there are only three members of the CJC. I'm hoping that code of conduct issues and the declarations of interest amongst those three members will be impeccable. I'm sure it will be, bearing in mind that there are two leaders of councils in there, plus a very senior member from the parks. Lovely. Thank you very much. So, is everybody happy to meet again in about six months? Can I have a little show of hands? Lovely. Thank you very much. That's great. Are there any questions that anyone would like to ask, as regards to what we're doing and anything you're not quite clear about before we move on? Can you hear me? I've got my mechanical hand up. I'm not sure if you can see it. Yes, I can hear you. Yeah, for me, there's quite a bit to attack on board, but the question I'd ask at this point is the dissemination of information to this committee. Who's doing it? What's the contact? I'm not familiar with the way information is passed around for things like this. Obviously, I've seen the standards committee in powers, but I find it quite difficult to extract the relevant documents that I need to read through to be meaningful to any meeting. So, I'm rather keen just to know who's going to disseminate whatever information we need to look at before any meeting. Chair, as the monitoring officer for the CJC, it'll be my responsibility to make sure that members have all the information that they have in advance of any meetings. And so, if you need any information, please don't hesitate to contact me. I only ask that because with the standards committee that I attend, most of the information and the admin and the questions that I get come from Carol. I know she's not involved here, but I just wondered if there was somebody similar in this case, or is it coming directly from you? It'll be arranged by me, but done by somebody else. Okay. All right. Thanks. Anybody else got any questions? No. Thank you, Chair. Great. Thanks very much. So, we shall move on to any other business. Is there any other business? Clearly not. Thank you, Chair. Lovely. And then we move on to the date of the next meeting, but I've just realized, actually, I'm not sure. Did we actually nominate and second me? I'm not sure that we did. Yeah. Well, I assume that you were volunteering and there was no other options at all. But, you know, just for the next one, I'm sure we all agree, didn't we? Well, we do agree. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. That's brilliant. Thank you. Okay. I'm sure people will fight over it. Okay. So, agenda number nine is the date of the next meeting, which would we like to set a provisional date or should we leave it for you? If you can leave it to officers, we'll set a date and put it in the diary as soon as possible. But I think that we both need to have a date which is acceptable to book calendars of both powers and paradigms. So, if you leave it to power to the moment, but we will get a date in the day as soon as possible. That's lovely. Thank you very much. So, with all business concluded. Russell's got a hand up. I'm not sure if it's... Oh, I'm sorry. I couldn't see that. It must have been a hand that I put up for my last question and I haven't taken it down again. Apologies for that. Thanks. So, yes, thank you all very much for attending and it's been a fruitful meeting and we'll await to hear the date of the next meeting and I look forward to seeing everybody then. Thank you. Thank you, everyone. Bye. Cheers. Bye. Bye.