Transcript

1. The meeting is being webcast with the exception of any business that the committee resolves to exclude the press and public because of the likely disclosure of exempt information as defined by the local government Act 1972. This meeting is being held as a hybrid meeting with the Government and Order Committee members attending in person at the Council Chamber, County Hall of Ritten, or remotely by video conference. For transparency purposes, I will ask the monitoring officer to identify which Government and Order Committee members are in attendance and whether they are attending in person or remotely. Those attending remotely are kindly asked to mute their microphones unless they are called upon to speak. Government and Order Committee members are also asked to have their videos switched on throughout the meeting unless I specifically request you to turn your video off to improve the quality of the audio link when you are speaking. You will also be expected to restart your video once you have finished speaking. Please also refrain from using the chat facility as messages sent to all are visible on the webcast. Those present in the Chamber are asked to make sure that they speak directly into the microphone to improve the quality of the sound for those attending remotely. To aid transparency, all the meetings business must be conducted through the Chair. Okay, the Declaration of Interest? Chair, would you like me just to confirm to those viewing who is present in the meeting? So, as I understand it, present in the Chamber, the Chair of the Committee, Mr David Stewart, Lay Member, Vice Chair, Councillor MACK Young and Lay Member, Mr Paul Witherm, attending remotely, Lay Member, Mr Nigel Rudd and Councillor Justine Evans, also present, either in the Chamber or attending remotely, our officers of the Council and audit Wales who are here to support the meeting. Thank you. Should I read out the Declaration of Interest a bit? I can do that, Chair. Thank you, Gary. Yeah, okay. Just if you wanted to deal with apologies first, I think we have had apologies from Councillor Adwell Roberts. Yeah, I've had apologies from Councillors but Bobby Fieldy and Ellie Chard. I think I've had the apology from R. Well, Robert. Yes. He didn't say he wouldn't be attending the meeting. He said he wouldn't be attending the meeting physically. Physically, yeah. Okay. I think it counts as an apology for not being present. Thank you. That's the apologies of the meeting. Before we go any further, I'd just say, by the way, good morning to everyone, just before we go to the Declaration of Interest, but just to say that as far as the agenda is concerned, I have put indicative times. They are indicative times on, I've put email that out to members yesterday. Also, I've reordered the agenda. So we'll be taking item seven, the terms of reference of the government's in order to committee before item five. There's a reason for that which I explained when we come to it. So after item four, the minutes will be going on to item seven and then to five and six and then eight. I should say round about either 11 o'clock or 11.30. I do plan to have a comfort break as well. So members are aware of that. So declaration of interest, Gary. The optimistic date is nine, eight hundred come right. Well, members will be aware of the requirements under the Council Code of Conduct to declare any personal purchase and just in respect of any business to be considered at a meeting today. So the interest should be declared now or as soon as the Council are affected, it becomes aware that they have a personal or prejudicial interest in today's business. All members declaring an interest are required to state clearly what the interest is and to advise whether it is a personal interest or a personal and prejudicial interest as defined in the Code of Conduct. Any member declaring a prejudicial interest is required to leave the meeting for the duration of the business and cannot take part in any of the proceedings. Members with personal interest only may take part in the debate and any votes. If a personal and prejudicial interest is declared state that has not previously been disclosed and recorded, the Council are concerned would be required to complete and sign a declaration of interest form which is either available from the committee support staff in attendance here today or online. Are there any decorations or interest to be made? Nigel Rudd. Good morning Nigel. Good morning all. Declaration in respect of membership of Conway, GAC as I may refer to that later on in the meeting chair. Anyone else? Just for myself please. I am a member of Rexham Council's Government of Audit Committee which Rexham Council would be referred to in the minutes. I am also in receipt of a pension from Cluid pensions. I should say Gary I believe you are not feeling too well today so that is why you are online rather than in the Council Chair. We hope you are soon feeling better. If I look as though I am crying, it is not because you have been beastly to me. It is because I have got a bit of a go. No other declarations of interest. I take it. There is no urgent matters Gary. We will go on to the minutes of the Government of Audit Committee meeting 24 March 2024. As we normally do, it has been us to receive the minutes of that meeting. We will go on to the accuracy of the minutes. We will go through these page by page. Please raise your hand. Those of you on the table tell me if there is a hand raised because I have one eye on the minutes and one eye on there. I find it difficult though. If there is anything to do with the accuracy of the minutes, if you go through the page by page, please raise your hand. Once we have done that more, go through the minutes. We will repeat going through the page that any matters arising there from. If we go, please start up page. I am referring to Pack pages now. There is page 7. Is it there? Just a small thing, please. When it says also present for the meeting last time, it has got for Mr Bob Bobby Choudry here. It is an internal auditor. I think it is the chief internal auditor. Ben and Mike just talk about the next person in the Principal Internal Auditor. Page 7. Page 8. Page 9. Just something I want to raise, please. On item 5 on that page, the statement of accounts closed down and we will come to that matters arising in a minute. But for the purposes of the minutes or the purposes of clarity, please make it clear which year we are talking about there. It should be the 22-23 statement of accounts. I know that. I think it needs to be clear in the minutes which year we are talking about there. Also on page 9, the last paragraph there, and I am reading part way through it, the second sentence. I think it should be referring to Mike Whitely from Audit Wales last time. He said, Assuming there was no issues with the remaining work, Audit Wales was still on track to have it completed by the end of March and ready to present it to the April Committee meeting. Mike, good morning to you, but I am not quite sure you said it would be ready for the April meeting. I think you went on to say that that might not be the case, correct me if I am wrong, but I did go through the webcast. I do not think that was said. I think, Chair, in the last meeting, we were discussing the state of the Audit completion and the work being finished by the end of March. I have not gone back and look at the webcast, but I do not think I said that. Certainly, we are discussing that issue this morning anyway, aren't we? I think for the purposes of the minutes, I am relatively comfortable with as it states because I do not have an alternative set of wording to hand, Chair. Thank you. I think on page 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, I would just want to raise some on 16, please. The third paragraph from the bottom, the paragraph that begins, thank the Chief Internal Auditor, it is the last sentence. There is a word missing there. It says, A key element of the requested work was the governance arrangements. It should be a key element of the requested work was where the government arrangements lie. If not, we got quite a different meeting there. It says,A key element of the requested work was the government arrangements lie, which is not the meaning we want there. It should be where the government arrangements lie.It would be rather unfortunate if it went out like there was someone quoted. That is page 16, 17, 18, 19. Again, there is a word missing on the last but one sentence on the page where it says,Government and Audit Committee had a wide responsibility for financial affairs of the authority.I think there is a letter missing there. It should be the Government and Audit Committee had a wider responsibility for the financial affairs of the authority. I think that is what was meant there, just an arm missed out there. But again, without it, it has got quite a different meaning. So, are there anything on page 20, 21 and 22? Okay. No hands raised. So, we will go back to page 7, please. And for any matters arising from the minutes. So, ending on page 7, page 8, something I just wanted to raise, please myself. The third paragraph on the bottom, it says,Page 8, minutes matters arising. The monitoring office informed the committee and meeting would be arranged between the chief internal orders and the monitoring office before the annual government statement was presented to committee. This was in respect of something I suggested before in committee that I think would be a good idea for the council to have an explicit commitment to good corporate governance. The recommendation from SIP is that each local authority actually has a code of corporate governance. And I think you were going to, I think it's referring to that. So, is there anything to report on that? Because I think the idea is to have something before the annual governance statement is produced. Yes, we will have something before the annual governance statement is produced. Bob and I just need to get together to work on that. Okay. Okay. Page 8, page 9. I think from my point of view, the third paragraph down, it says, Work was still undergoing in relation to the commitment to sharing the timescales borrowing from the UK infrastructure bank. Give us hope these will be available in the new financial year. I think Liz has had a fine answer. I think you were going to come back on that. Thank you. I was going to cover that in the Treasury management update if that's okay, Chair. It could be in the Treasury management report on the agenda, but it makes sure I do. I'll try to remember, yes. Also on that page, on the fifth paragraph down, page 14, Treasury management, it says, "The head of finance confirmed she had contacted Arlin Close. This is to do with who they would contact in the hypothetical situation. They thought the head of finance was not the most appropriate person to contact if they thought some Treasury management transaction was a needed question. I know Liz, you contacted them. Have they come back to you to confirm that yet? I had a conversation with them before that meeting, which is in March. I needed to go away and confirm that in writing. I'm yet to do so, but it's on my list, and I will do so. Okay. Thank you very much. Page 9, page 10. It must be on page 10, the Statement of Accounts. I know Mike's here in the meeting, obviously. I think members will have received a note from Liz Thomas yesterday about the Statement of Accounts, and we're talking about the 2223 accounts here. Do members have any questions or points to raise about that before we go? It is quite an important issue for us. You see from the note that Liz centers, there is some more work to do on the accounts, and we're likely to be getting them together with the auditors report at our September meeting. That September meeting will also be hopefully having the draft accounts for 2324 as well. Before any question, Liz, enter out to that on Mike White, and then I'll bring in members question. I know nothing further to add. Thank you, Chair. Absolutely. It's just obviously more work in progress. That's clear. Is any risk to any financial impact with that work? Obviously, we don't know what we don't know. I understand we're in a position we can't really manage, but it's just the risk element of that, please. Yeah, that's a good question. Thank you. I'll bring in Mike after I finish from audit Wales. My understanding is that the bulk of the work toward it, the 2223 Statement of Accounts has now been completed. The issue, again, relates to assets, and it's contained within assets. Given the nature of the kind of assets that we have, whilst it will have an impact on a number of areas of the financial statements, it doesn't have a bottom line impact at all. The number could be big. It is the change here in the accounts, an equal and opposite change here, there, here, but they even each other out. There is no bottom line impact, and therefore no ongoing impact on 2324. The only impact that it does have is around resourcing, of course, and that has an impact on both the finance team and the auditor team, because of course, this is more time that could be dedicated elsewhere. We are working closely with audit Wales to work as efficiently as we can whilst getting to the bottom of the issues. I don't know, Mike, whether you'd like to add anything to that. Thanks, Liz. I think you've explained it much better than I would have done. Just to confirm my understanding, the issues that Liz has outlined in the briefing paper are the issues that we've identified. My understanding is, as Liz says, there's no impact on the bottom line, and any kind of adjustments will end up in the unusable reserves part of the balance sheet, so no impact on directly usable reserves for the council. It's an asset kind of accounting and technical issue that we're working through. I think, when we've met with Liz and her team, Liz has provided quite a sensible challenge back to us to say, how do we work together now to break this cycle of this will be the second year where we've reported the audit findings and the audit report in September. How do we break this cycle and how do we get back on track? We're exploring ways where we can try and catch up for another better phrase. In terms of us just structuring our work and what resources we can make available to maybe pick up work on 2324 assets while we're concluding our work on the 2223 issues that Liz has outlined in a briefing note. That's all I want to do out here. Thank you. Thanks, Mike. I think you did say, I'm sorry, I've seen somewhere that you did say in response to what was raised at the last meeting, that you pointed out that this is not a problem that's unique, sorry, an issue that's unique to them, but there were several other Welsh local authorities are similarly impacted. I think that's correct, doesn't it? That is correct, Jim, yes. Thank you. So, but anyone thinks it's a particular weakness of damage. It's not. It's generic. So, it's good that the bottom lines on team impacted, but when the teams are so, so busy, I've really actually acknowledged the extra work is going to be a challenge, but it sounds like a sensible chat is happening. So, thank you. Absolutely. When we come to item five on today's meeting, the update to the meeting to a financial strategy, it's a case that it's a point that's well made in that report, and we'll, so we'll return to that later on in the meeting. Also, we're later on today, we'll be agreeing the work, the work programme for this committee and trying to even things out. And we, I think we know from what's been told that we're likely to have both sets of accounts, one final and one draft in the September meeting. So, that'll be the, probably two major substantive items for the September meeting. Nigel Rod. Thank you, Chair. Two things. Firstly, Mike. Clearly, one of the expectations on audit is timeliness of audit, and the reports, the moment are clearly behind time in terms of trying to best manage the performance of the authority. Now, I know in the annual report that you recently produced in what it was, who gave a commitment to improving timeliness of audit. I think anything that you can do to try and ensure that this authority benefits from that new and improved focus within audit wells would be well received. And thank you for the very speedy supply of the information about the other authorities that you did supply after the last meeting, Mike. Appreciate that. The second one was for Liz. It was quite technical document produced last night. I just wonder whether Liz, it would be possible later in this meeting to just put a dummy figure or two into explaining what the actual issue is, because I think at the moment it's difficult from members perspective, it's potentially even more difficult from a public perspective, anybody looking into understand this technical there, if you can at least give an effort with some figures later in the meeting, Liz, I think that might help understanding of the reasons for delay. Thank you, Chair. Okay. You were right with that, Liz, to come up later on the meeting. Yeah, if that's all right, yeah. Okay. Was Mike first, I don't know. Yeah. Thanks, Liz. And thanks, Nigel, for the comments. Absolutely. It's a key priority for us to get back on track with more time there's reporting across all of our work and our director team and the also general and meeting with society or else, Treasurer's on Friday to discuss that and formulate some more more plans around that. And I think Liz may or maybe attend that meeting, I think, to target an input for Denbyshire. So following that meeting on Friday, setting kind of our plan and our aspirations to get back on track, we're hopefully aiming to get the majority of our local government board. It's finished and reported by November this year. There are risks to that clearly. So as and when those plans, I've got more detail to them and there's more firm plans there. I can come to the next committee, hopefully, and provide an update if that'll be helpful. Mike? Okay, Liz. Yeah, so just to confirm, I am going to the meeting on Friday to represent Denbyshire. And we have spent some time with Mike and with Matthew Edwards talking about how we break this cycle as Mike mentioned earlier, because it is difficult once you get into this position where the work still has to be worked through. How do we break that cycle? But we have some ideas that we've been having, having some discussions around. The issues, they are very technical in nature. So I appreciate the comments around the, for the, around the briefing note. Essentially, the way it works is we have the assets that the council owns are valued in use. So things like schools and care homes. We're not talking about open market valuations, we're talking about what value are they to us as a council, as what we use them for. And we will undertake cyclical valuations as required by the code of practice in producing our accounts. Now, that's in the way it's done here in, and of course, this is over years and years and years. And assets will go up in value and they will go down in value, but there are essentially two different ways an asset can go down in value. It can be revalued downwards or it can have an impairment. And it's around the technical and accounting nature of whether it's gone down in value or whether it's been impaired and where the accounting for that goes to, whether it goes to a revaluation reserve, if you'd have had a previous gain, it would go to that revaluation reserve, or it would go into your income and expenditure accounts. And the issues are all to do with those kinds of transactions. And of course, when we're talking about the volume and the value of assets that we have, the figure gets quite big quite quickly, and it goes over audit materiality. If it helps, what we could do is pick a couple of assets and show the values. I don't have them off the top of my head, but we could pick a couple for those members of the committee who were interested in it, but it is a very, it's a niche area of accounting and auditing to say the least, I think. I hope that gives a flavour and helps to understand around the briefing note, but we can provide a work through example of that helps. Personally, I'd appreciate that. When, not this time tomorrow, by the way, I mean, certainly over the next few weeks. And also, you've got the length, because it's over the number of years. So, if we find an issue, it's not just to do with the 22, 23 accounts, this would be going back some of them to 2007, 2008. So, we've got to work through the accounting that's been done on that asset. So, that's why it takes time on both the accountant and the auditor side. I think it's, I think we can get hold of the, you know, the assets are the four or the rising value. It's just how you account for that difference in some that, how you account with that difference in value there. And I think it's the treatment of that, which is difficult to get our head around, that you might be saying. And just to provide some reassurance, what we're talking about here is, it's not the bread and butter. It's more about when we've done something with an asset, like we've broken up an asset. And, and something's gone one way and something's gone another way, which happens in local authority. So, it's not the general accounting, it's more on the periphery. No, thank you. Thank you, Liz. Thank you, Mike. I think we're, well, we were just going through any matters of the rise of the minutes. I think we're at page 10, thank you. Page 11, page 12, just the bottom of page 12, staying with this. Audit Wales representative stated the financial sustainability work was currently in the final series of being scoped. I don't know if Charles or Mike would like to comment on this, but just to say, it was mentioned in the, the Audit Wales plan, which Nigel Rudd just referred to a few minutes ago. I did copy that plan out to all members of the committee. And I see it's, it's, it's clearly shown in there. I just say on that document, before, just before we go on, I found that document really useful. I found it really valuable. It sets out the financial context for the public sector in Wales. And it also shows the environment in which we're all functioning in here. And I found it really useful documents. I have actually uploaded it, but Nigel Rudd, suggestion, I have, you remind him, I've uploaded it to the library. There's a on the, on the drive, I don't know which drive it's called, but there's a key documents, training documents for this committee. I've uploaded it there. So it is therefore reference purposes for any members of this committee. But as Mike or Charles, do you just want to comment on the, the work on sustainability? I understand that it's like to be, I think someone's told about, we should be getting a draft report in June and a possibly in July for the final report. I would be happy. Yeah, yeah, sure. Thank you, Chair. And so we've, we've begun our field work in Denvershire and in a lot of councils across Wales now. So we've had two interviews today and a document review with them, all the documents we requested provided on a really timely basis by the, the strategic performance team. So that was really helpful for us. We've got two more interviews this week with, with members and officers and one next week. So hopefully we should be in a position to have kind of the initial findings and draft report towards the end of June. And the final report after the clearance process, you know, around three to four weeks after that. So kind of end of July, that's the current timetable. So hopefully we should be in a position, you know, to draw this conclusion. Like I said, kind of end of June. Okay. Would it be possible if it's not, not out of step, but when we get the draft report for the vice chair myself to be included in the circulation of it? So, so that would be a massive for the council to, to address internally. We provide it to, in this case, it would be Liz who'd be the main officer that we'd be liaising with with this, as well as Helen and Yolo's team. So it would be for the council to, to decide on that, on that front. Yeah, okay. Thank you. I didn't know it was unethical in some way, but I can't know why, but yeah. Okay. Okay. That's item 12, item, sorry, page 12, page 13, 14, 15, 17, and 18, and 19, 20, 21, the bottom minutes, aren't they? Page 22. So, okay, there's no other matters arising from the minutes. I think the, we're asked to receive the minutes of the government's audit meeting, going to the committee meeting held on the 6th of March
2. So, is, can I have a proposal for that, please? Mark Jung, seconder. All with them, all in favour? All members? Where's Hannah? Do you have a favour? Thank you. Councillor Justine Evans, are you in favour or not? Sorry. Thank you. Thank you very much indeed. Right. We'll now go on to item 7. I've read jig the order here. The reason I've read jig the order is item 5 was the update to the financial strategy, and that's got quite a bit to do about finance and the report to this committee. The terms of reference, I have something to say about financial affairs and so on. And so, I thought it would be good to agree the terms of reference for this committee first, then be sure they have a clearer picture of what our role is in terms of financial affairs. Gary, do you want to present this report? Yes, thank you, Chair. Yes, this report is a fairly short report, but the draft terms of reference are attached as an appendix. The background to this is that you and other members of the committee rightly pointed out that the terms of reference were worthy of review. The current or previous terms of reference, whilst they reflected the statutory function of the committee as set out in the Local Government Whales measure and subsequently amended by the Local Government Elections Act, they weren't necessarily a comprehensive terms of reference and didn't actually necessarily reflect the importance of the role of the committee within the council's structures. So, or the benefit of those who have not been involved in the process, the Chair very helpfully proposed some changes based upon the model, or I think they call them suggested terms of reference produced by SIPFA, and I subsequently met with the Chair, the Vice-Chair, Liz, the Section 151 Officer and Bob's Chief internal auditor to go through the proposed or suggested terms of reference, and we've built upon that draft and really grateful for everybody's input. If I just turn to the draft terms of reference, which are the only appendix to this report, the main differences between this and the previous terms of reference are that we have a section at the beginning now, which sets out the statement of purpose of the Government and Audit Committee, which tries, as well as setting out the statutory requirements, place the committee in its context, if you like, as an important part of the Council's governance. We've then tried to follow more or less SIPFA's suggested subheadings for the terms of reference, and I won't go through it in detail, but probably the key points to highlight under financial affairs, the suggested terms of reference from SIPFA talk mainly about the financial statements, like the statements of accounts, et cetera, but they don't necessarily reflect the statutory provision in the local Government Wales measure, which talks about reviewing and scrutinising financial affairs. To place that in some context, the Government, whilst Government produced some statutory guidance about the operation of governance and audit committees, and they are, in that statutory guidance, keen to point out that there should be a demarcation between the role of the Government and Audit Committee and the role of scrutiny. Although the word scrutinised is used in the legislation, the Government and Audit Committee isn't a scrutiny committee with a capital S, if you like, under the executive arrangements of the local authority under the local Government Act 2000. So essentially what the guidance suggests is that the governance and audit committee should be concentrating on ensuring that there are robust processes and controls in respect of the Council's financial affairs, the way it sets its budgets, the monitoring of its spend, et cetera, and that scrutiny about spending decisions is something for the scrutiny committees of the Council and that the Constitution should demarcate those. So what we've tried to do with the terms of reference here is, as you'll see, the first bullet point under the heading Financial Affairs on page 81 of your PAC is setting that scene, hopefully, which is that the committee is to obtain assurance that the Council has effective and robust processes in place to identify, assess and manage risks and pressures and a realistic and achievable strategy for setting balanced budgets with any concerns arising properly raised with the responsible officers, members or auditors necessary. So that is, if you like, a key part of these terms of reference, which doesn't appear in the SIP for code, but we've tried to, if you like, enhance sort of the SIP for model, we've tried to enhance the provisions in that model document. Other areas to relate to are the sanctions under governance risk control and performance on page 82. The Chair had asked me to check with colleagues in strategic planning that they were happy with the second bullet point under that heading about our risk management processes and I can confirm that I have checked that with colleagues in strategic planning and they are happy that that accurately reflects their understanding to of their interaction with the committee. You will, one comment I did get back from them related to the draft annual performance self-assessment, you'll see in the terms of reference in the fourth bullet point under governance risk control and performance that the committee is to receive the Council's draft annual performance self-assessment and if necessary, make any recommendation for changes to the Council. And the next bullet point says to receive the Council's finalised annual self-assessment report for the respective financial year. Now colleagues say that what they do is they bring the draft self-assessment report to the committee, but they don't necessarily bring the final self-assessment report. My view is that bullet point does need to stay in and that what we probably need to do in the future is the following to reflect the legislative requirement. So the local government's elections Wales Act 2021 requires that this committee comment on the draft self-assessment that Council approves the final self-assessment, but if the committee makes recommendations about changes to the draft, which are not, if you're like adopted by Council, Council should explain why. And the legislation says that the final self-assessment report should be made available to the Government and Audit Committee. So I think that what we should probably do going forward is that you would receive the draft annual performance self-assessment, it would go to Council, it would only come back to you as a substantive item if you like Council had not adopted any recommendations that you made, so that you can consider the explanation. And if the final report does take into account the recommendations of the committee, then the finalised self-assessment report would come back to you for information. So it's just a suggestion in respect to that. The local government Wales measure does say that as well as the statutory requirements placed upon the Government and Audit Committee, the Council can determine that other matters be considered by the committee. So you'll see on page 85 that there is a subheading responsibilities in respect of the Council's Constitution. Now the previous terms of reference or the existing terms of reference go into quite a lot of detail with that, which is probably unnecessary. Some councils have a separate Constitution Committee, we don't. So the committee that we would use or that we do use for making recommendations about the Constitution to Council is this committee and so there's a short reference in the terms of reference there to that role. And then at the bottom of page 85 and the top of page 86, you'll see that the terms of reference refer to responsibility in respect of indemnities. Again, that's not a statutory requirement to this committee, but this committee has for a long time had that as part of its terms of reference and that relates to the local authorities indemnities for members and officers Wales Order 2006, which effectively means that officers and members who are the subject of litigation in respect of activities arising out of their duties can look to the Council for an indemnity in respect to the costs of dealing with those proceedings. And in addition, members could request an indemnity in respect of legal costs relating to code of conduct procedures brought by the Ombudsman and taken either to the standards committee or to the adjudication panel for Wales. The sting in the tail and indemnities is that you can have an indemnity, but if you were prosecuted or you were taken through a code of conduct proceeding and you were convicted or sanctioned, then you have to pay all of the money back. So in the time that I've been at the Council since 2011, we've not actually had to consider an indemnity at this committee, but we do need a place where they would come if anybody applied for one. And that's why it's in the terms of reference of the committee. So in all other respects, I think the draft broadly reflects the SIP for model or suggested terms of reference, but clearly happy to take any questions or observations from the committee or any suggestions or for amendment before we take it to Council for final approval and provided everybody's okay with it today, we propose to take it to Council in May. Happy to answer any questions, Chair. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Gary. I'd just like to thank Gary for the work he's done on this. It's been a bit of a niggle for me for some time. The current terms of reference, to me, they almost present the gubernatorial committee as a necessary evil, which of course we are. But we've put something in this to talk about the purpose of the committee, not just what we can do, but also, and also, something about the value of the committee as well. So thanks to Gary for the work he's done on this and for outlining where the, as he's just done so now, any questions on this from members? Thank you. All with them, thank you. Thank you, Chair. Gary, I think you've done a brilliant job based on the model, but I did ask myself the question. If these terms of reference were operating now, would all the items in this agenda today and in the forward work program be covered by it? Gary, do you want to spawn those first before me? Excuse me. Yes, I think we could probably bring the reports that are mentioned in the forward work program or are on the agenda today within one or more of the paragraphs of the terms of reference. I think the next piece of work that needs to be done, and I'll get it in now before anybody else mentions it, is the forward work program. I know members have got concerns about the forward work program and what I've discussed with the Chair is that we will now sit down once the terms of reference are okayed by the committee and what we'll try and do is to map out, I've spoken to Bob, we'll look at the last three years of agendas and we'll try and map out what the committee's receiving against the various responsibilities expressed in the terms of reference to see whether there are any gaps of things. We'll also be looking at the time that the committee has and how we can structure the forward work program to have a more even spread of business across the year and also be looking at what you would need to have a substantive items and what you may be able to take as information reports, looking a little at the way in which scrutiny works, scrutiny tries not to have more than four substantive items on their agenda in any meeting in order that there can be meaningful discussion within an appropriate timescale. That may not always be possible for this committee, but we are looking at trying to concentrate on making sure that things hit the terms of reference and that nothing's left uncovered. Thank you, Gary. I think the answers to Paul's question is, yes, there will be any issue of accommodating what we've got in the program that we've got against these terms of reference. Yes, go on, Paul, yes, and then Nigel will do after that. Sorry, a second question, if I may, pardon me, when it says at the end of the, towards the bottom of the first page and at the end of the overall purpose, it says, I quote, "It will be for the committee to determine how to exercise these functions. The committee may require any member or officer of this council to attend before it to answer questions and may invite other persons to attend meetings. My question is that in the past and probably in the future, there may be people that this committee would like to attend and to ask questions such as maybe a contractor or school governors, chair of governors or chair of a finance committee or whatever, who themselves may not be a member or an officer. At the moment, I don't think the wording allows for that to happen, either for governors or for contractors, and I just thought I'd raise it as an observation. Thank you. Gary, do you want to come in there? My understanding is not compelled people to come if they don't work for the authority. Yes, so we've approached this very much under the provisions that apply to scrutiny committees, so we can compel people who work for the authority or are elected members of the authority to attend before the committee and answer questions. We can't compel people who don't have any power to compel people who don't work for the authority to come to answer questions, but clearly what we find with scrutiny is we very rarely have people who decline. So if we have people who work for the authority or who are members of the authority, who are resistant to coming, then we've got a problem, they can't see if there are people outside of the employment of the authority. So for example, with scrutiny, we invite other agencies to come to scrutiny, and I can't think of a situation in which they've declined. They may ask about timing, et cetera, but I don't think we've had refusals from people to come, and we'd approach this very much on the same basis. >> Thank you, Gary. >> Nigel, Rod? >> Thank you, Chair. I think this is a really good report. Gary and colleagues have worked with them on it. I've got three or four points that we may be able to cover today, but you may need to take away. The first is that members will recall from the Section 114 report on thorough, that there were some significant issues about the investment processes at that authority took that eventually led to the undermining of the financial arrangements of the authority and similar, and there's been criticism about the failure of the governance and audit committee in those Section 114 authorities to adequately review and monitor what was going on in those authorities prior to them issuing Section 114 notice. Now, from my perspective, if we are to provide a shield of protection around the financial arrangements of this authority, I think, Gary, that the terms of reference could usefully include an explicit reference to the Section 114 implications so that they are addressed proactively by a GAC and not after the event. I think that some additional wording to pick that up, which is reflective of the SIP for report, which isn't the one about the terms of reference of the GAC, but the SIP for report that Liz refers to that we identified on the medium-term financial and other SIP for reference, I think, is it would strengthen the terms of reference. So, can you look at that in liaison with Liz, please? The second one is specifically that there's much reference to revenue and budgets. There is insufficient, in my view, specific reference to capital management decisions and the link, therefore, into treasury management in the terms of reference. I'd ideally want to be seeing capital strategy, capital management decisions linked as part of the purview of the GAC. At the moment, there is a potential that that's done out with the work of the GAC. I think we need to close that down because the relationship between the revenue consequences of capital decisions and capital investment hitting on the revenue and our ability to effectively treasury manage and fund those capital investments, all links together, and at the moment, I think there's a gap. The third bit, Gary, I know you're not well and you're not going to like this, but if you go down to the end of your terms of reference, far be it for me to have a correct an officer, but I'm going to stick my neck out here and say, if you go to membership of committee right at the end, it talks about membership of nine, with six councillors politically balanced, and the councillors may not be a chair of a council or a cabinet member. Now, my understanding is that a cabinet member can be a member of the GAC, so long as that cabinet member is not the chair or the vice, and that wording doesn't necessarily reflect that. I think that needs to be... I just think you need to look at that, and the reason I say that is I think there's an opportunity politically which members might wish to consider within the council, which is that the lead member for finance regularly attends GAC, and the potentially the administration, they wish at some point in time to ensure that in the allocation of members to committees, they might deliberately and look to allocate and suggest that the lead member for finance is one of the non-chair and vice members of the GAC, and I think there are some benefits politically around that in terms of ensuring the integration of the GAC and the overall working of the council. There are some dis-benefits that may come with that, but I think it's something worth exploring from a political angle, and I think the membership committee statement therefore needs to be relaxed a little bit in order for that to be picked up. The final comment I have is that you and the team having established such a wonderful set of terms of reference now presents a real issue for the other committees within the council, and in my view, and I have been looked at the partnerships committee and having looked at the performance review committee terms of reference, they are woefully inadequate in comparison to the new improved GAC terms of reference, potentially there is a missed opportunity there that needs to be closed, and I think that that requires officers with the relevant members to review the terms of reference to those other committees, because the best way to look at these terms of reference in front of us is ideally to look at them as one piece on the jigsaw puzzle of which all the other committees terms of references are set so that we know that the interrelationships between our committee here and the partnerships committee or the performance committee or any other scrutiny committee dovetails. At the moment, I think there's a potential for conflict, and a particular particular relation to capital programming reference under the terms of reference for the performance review committee, and I think that they need to be ironed out before this document proceeds formally to full council. That's the challenge for you on what is otherwise, I think, a really good paper and well done, Gary, Liz, Dave and Mark on your considerable efforts on here. Thank you, Nigel. There's four points that Nigel raised there. Shall we just take them one by one to get on business response? Perhaps to take the first two together with the other, in regarding investments, a specific and explicit reference to section one, one, four along the lines of the stress test, and this is included in the report on item five there, and also regarding capital management and capital strategy decisions, does one of the officers want to respond to that? Do we need to further amend the draft terms of reference we've got there? Yes, I'm just processing and so I suppose taking the second point then in terms of capital and revenue, looking at the point, the financial affairs, on the bottom of page 81, the top of page 82, to obtain assurance that the council has a effective robust process in place to identify, assess, manage risk and pressures and realistic and achievable strategy for a setting balanced budget. It doesn't actually say whether that's revenue or capital, it says balanced budgets in there, so whether we enhance that to say setting all revenue and capital, balanced budgets, to make it explicit, I suppose that's a small minor change but it covers the issues. Yeah, it's explicit. I think the point about the section one, one, four, and the risk around that, I think that is harder too, because what I'm concerned about is the thorough case was quoted, that's a specific set of circumstances for thorough, and if you look at other authorities that have been in similar situations, they will also have specific reasons as to why they had to issue section one, one, four notices. I suppose, and I'm concerned about putting too much in the terms of reference that's specific to individual council circumstances, I would hope that what they did in their under financial affairs would broadly cover all of those kinds of things, so in Sarek the issue was around investments, well the treasury management and the investment strategy for the council is covered within treasury management which is a strategy that has to be approved by both oath, governance and order committee and then going through to council, so I would hope there would be enough in there, but I might want to take that away and have a further think about it. Okay, okay, on the first point I tend to agree with you myself that to put revenue and capital there, my take on that was what was said about section one for the first bullet point, I think myself, I remain open to persuasion is covered in that first bullet point that to obtain assurance that the council has effective and robust processes in place to identify assess and manage risks and pressures and a realistic and achievement strategy for setting balanced budgets, excuse me, revenue and capital, but then he concerns arising properly raised with the responsible officers of members or auditors as necessary and that's the assurance that this committee is looking for there, I'd have thought it covers that but I remain open to persuasion. Gary, do you want to come in on that and then I was going to ask you to comment on Nigel's other two points that we'll see your hands raised now, thank you. Yeah, sure, but I just put my hand up, yes, I think I agree with Liz, but I'm happy for us to go away and take a look at the point to see if it can be approved, I agree with a bit about, you know, being explicit about capital and revenue, in terms of the one one for I would hope the wording would cover that but we will go away and take a look at that before it goes to council and if we do look at any change we'll circulate that to everybody. In terms of the bit about cabinet members at Nigel's absolutely right, the legislation doesn't prohibit cabinet members from being on there but the council took a decision when the committee was set up following the local McWhill's measure 2011 that they would, and that was a previous council, so it can be mentioned to council this time, they took a decision that they would not want cabinet members to be on the audit committee to provide some sort of separation between the executive and the committee that would be with a small S scrutinising financial affairs. So that's the rationale, Nigel's perfectly right, there's nothing at all to prohibit in law a member of the cabinet being on the committee and that's a matter that members can determine but it's not a mistake if you like, it was a purposeful decision that was made by the previous or a couple of councils go when the committee was created, so that's the reason why that's there but happy to point that out to members when the terms of reference go and they can consider whether or not they want to change that. In terms of the, in terms of reference of the other committees, they are due a refresh, whether or not they're woefully inadequate but they're due a refresh and actually one of the issues that we will be talking to the chairs and vice chairs of scrutiny about is the approach that scrutiny takes and how scrutiny is involved and engaged in the process of transformation going through the next few years and that would be an opportunity to take a look at the terms of reference as well. So yes, they're fairly old, they've been there for a long time, they could do with a review and we'll certainly take a look at them again under the spirit of the demarcation between the role of this committee and the scrutiny committee, so certainly intend to do that. The question of whether that gets done before these terms of reference go to council, I'd suggest get these done, get them through council and we'll do the work on the other terms of references we go along rather than delaying everything. Work on the constitution has been delayed due to sickness in the team, so there's quite a bit of work to be done on reviewing the constitution especially if we're going to start reviewing all the terms of reference, so I'd rather get bits done as we go along if we can but we will be picking up the scrutiny terms of reference as part of that general review. Thank you Gary, just on the last point about the terms of reference for other mitties, as we were going through the work that I did on this, particularly looking at the statutory guidance notes to the 2011 measure that you said and that clears as you rightly say that shows a clear demarcation, I suggest a clear demarcation between the role of this committee for financial affairs which is one of looking, getting assurance about the process as opposed to the detailed scrutiny, scrutiny, capitalist scrutiny of spend and where decisions can be challenged or the decision-makers to think again and so on. It did raise a question with me though, where does that take place and does that take place sufficiently? That's not criticising the work of members on, I know some members of this committee are on their scrutiny committee and that's not saying not criticising the work of the committees but it's just as far as the share of work is concerned and as you rightly say with the financial situation, ongoing transformation that's necessary, I think there's probably a lot of scrutiny is going to be needed in that direction and I suppose the question I would have, which is a rhetorical question, is the current, I'm trying to use my words carefully, is the current scrutiny committee set up still appropriate to the council's needs? We talked about partnerships last time and I suppose what we're talking about now is a lot of it would probably be before the finance before the finance performance scrutiny committee, that's not it, it's not called, that is it. No, so can I come in there chair? Sure, so in terms of scrutiny, we have three scrutiny committees, they were last reviewed in 2008-ish I think and they moved from a previous model where they were based upon directorates and in the, to use the jargon of the time to avoid silent working, they were changed into a thematic approach, so you've got performance, which sort of does what it says on the 10, communities which would predominantly look at things that had significant impacts in the community and partnerships dealing with, if you like, the council's outward looking work with other agencies. The question was asked at performance committee last week by one of the members of this committee, Councillor Feely, who did ask whether or not in the current financial context and with the challenges that we were facing and with the need to take on some work around transformation, whether the current scrutiny structure was appropriate, and that's clearly something we'll be talking to scrutiny chairs and vice chairs about, in how they look at both the terms of reference of the committees, the way in which the committees work but also how we managed their workload to ensure that we're focusing on the right things. I think Liz will probably want to touch upon this in her report around the medium term financial plan because Liz clearly has her own views around increasing the level of scrutiny related to the budget process in the scrutiny committees and so I know she'll be referring to that. Whether we need a route and branch review of scrutiny, because one thing I'm keen to avoid is that we spend a lot of time potentially navel gazing about what we call certain committees and what they do. We do need to make sure that they're focused on the right things and we need to talk to scrutiny chairs and vice chairs about how we can do that and how we can better balance the workload across the three scrutiny committees. So it's a bit early because there haven't yet been approved but the way in which we'll be approaching transformation will be thematic and there's a discussion to be had with scrutiny as to how those themes fit in with their way of working and whether or not we need to change in any way the makeup of the committees. Thank you Gary. The only other point that I've got from myself, and sorry, any of the members have got any questions on the terms of reference? Nigel, your hands do you want to come back? Thank you Chad. I just wanted to come back on the section 114 element and Liz I accept the points that officers are making. What I'm trying to do is to get section 114 out of the cupboard and being seen at the moment it's a sort of a dark negative sort of all when we wheel it out, when the going gets rough type of thing. And I wanted us to be a bit more positive about how we anticipate and it's partly anticipated in Liz's appendix five on the report later on the agenda but how we better position the authority to anticipate the issues that do come through on a section 114 that using the section woman for label is quite useful shorthand to try and capture some of that. So when looking at that way from the meeting that that's the reason why I'm pushing on that area. The second was I could withdraw the woefully element from my comments about the terms of reference and probably a bond reflection. I'll just stick with inadequate chair if that's okay. Yeah noted. I'll take that chair I've been holding adequate before it's fine. As far as section 114 is concerned to me, as far as section 114 is concerned I think that's someone that should be probably captured in our work programme but I take the point that's being made there. Can I just add on that? I mean I support Nigel's comments because I think if it's made explicit in the terms of reference when it's seen by other committees and by full council it'll just make them stop and think and well pause at least and I think that's a good thing. Thanks. I thought we said that we thought Nigel accepted the point that was made and that we're going to keep it as it is there but we can give some more thought to that. The other thing I wanted to mention briefly was on times going on page 85. I don't want to go into details but complaints. We do have a strategy in regard to complaints. I think that's shown that I think on reflection I've seen this draft before obviously helped to put it together but I think there's too much there on complaints. I think it goes into too much detail there particularly about the statistical report that we can get as well. I think Gary I think that could be condensed quite a bit into perhaps one or maybe two paragraphs there. I think we need basically assurance regarding the effectiveness of the complaint system rather than any specific stuff about details, statistical reports and so on. I think the recommendation of it is that the committee considers the draft terms of reference and recommends there adoption to council and there's a few more changes needed. So Gary what's your advice here please? Well there's two ways you can deal with this chair. Council is on the 14th of May which means that we would have to have the papers in by the 30th of April which is next week so in terms of spinning around an amended terms by email to people then well technically I've probably got until the week after because it would be an appendix. So I can do that for comment or I can bring it back to the next meeting of the committee before it goes to council. My preference would be for the first of those alternatives there. So later in the year we'll be taking the annual report of this committee to the council and I want us to be able to if you like compare that with the let's say it's in response to the terms of reference there so my preference would be for the former of the options you just set out there and suggest that if members are still unhappy with something then we will have time to amend it further next year. I don't think we've radically disagreed on anything. I think the thing is Gary that if you did the further changes there then presumably the committee are going to have to trust me as chair and the vice chair just to sign there was off on behalf of the committee. Is that acceptable to members of the committee? Yeah I'm getting thumbs up there. So sorry chair the other thing I'd say is it's a terrible cliche it's a living document it can be changed at any time so we'll get this set as amended through council and then of course you can always take a look at them and see whether or not you think they need to be refined in any way going forward perhaps especially after we've taken a look at how we make the forward work program fit. Sure okay so the recommendation is that the committee considers the draft terms of reference we've done that and recommends their adoption to council and that's subject to further non-fundamental changes being agreed by the chair and vice chair so as long as that's that latter bit is included in the minutes please specifically. So if we can have a proposal for that please. All with them. Seconder. Mark Young. All in favor. Thank you. Right thank you. We will go on to item five now which is the update to the medium term financial strategy in plan for 2025 six twenty five twenty six seven and review of the council's financial resilience and sustainability. Excuse me. So I think it's going to be presented by Liz. Before we start before we start this just many thanks for doing this report. I found it extremely easy to read and concise and I think it certainly was hidden the mark as far as I was concerned so over to yourself thank you. Chair. I'd better move around the table for this one. So first and foremost just wanted to give apologies from the from the lead member for finance Councillor Gwyneth Alice. She would ordinarily have been here but she has a as a diary class unfortunately but she wanted to say if members wanted any responses particularly from her that should be willing to do so outside of the of the of the committee. So there's a lot of information in the in the report and so I'm not going to talk at length. I just wanted to pull out a few a few highlights really so the the information is all in the the appendices really so appendices one and two relate to the twenty four twenty five budget setting. It summarizes where we were at at twenty four twenty five and provide some updates and the updates are on the final funding that we receive from Welsh government for information and some of the work streams that were ongoing when the twenty four twenty five budget was sat and there hadn't been concluded so specifically the voluntary exit scheme is in there the updates on the three million pound savings target that each head of service was was issued with and then in appendix two is the draft savings tracker that's been included for feedback and for for comments. I think it's important to note on these you know it's quite because of the way the budget was sat I've kept the tracker in in line with the way the budget was sat so it's it's split into three three categories the major savings proposals the non-strategic and then the three million target I don't see it working like that moving forward I think there'll need to be some consolidation but for this first one for consistency because I appreciate you know I live and breathe this other people don't be picking it up you know perhaps every couple of weeks or every couple of months or to try and assist with that and that's why I've stuck to that for this year but it will need to evolve as we move through the financial year to ensure that it's focused and adding value to where it needs to be there's no point in tracking something that's already been achieved alongside other hundreds of lines we need it more focused. And it will be reported regularly to cabinets in their monthly finance updates and of course all members have an opportunity to to ask any questions of cabinets at cabinets monthly meeting. So that's 24/25 then turning to 25/26 through to 27/28 so the medium term we've got the update to the medium term financial plan and the medium term financial strategy so that appendices three and appendices four so the plan is the numbers and the strategy is the words that accompanies the numbers in in in simple terms you know part of bringing it to this committee we've just talked about the terms of reference part of bringing it to this committee this is around the process and this is about this committee taking assurances around the processes that the council has in place for setting balanced budgets in the future so it provides the the context but also talks about the the the process that we will go through and I see this as a report that we will now um that will evolve over the year and it will come to this committee and other committees periodically throughout the year and that's set out within the the the MTFS and so I see it so and we Gary and I need to have a discussion with the chairs and vice chairs of scrutiny committees but I see this report as going through governance and audit committee for the process review and then I see it going through and as it probably stands but again we haven't had that discussion yet um through possibly performance scrutiny for scrutinizing the the decisions and the and the policies that are being made that they can then feedback to to cabinet and I've sort of set out that it would happen now in April but it would happen before the summer recess in July and then it would happen in the autumn before we get into budget setting season in January February time so the appendix three um uh you know I've got to stress here the uncertainty around um those projections you know we're we're estimating the figures for 24/25 the year that we're currently in so of course the further we move away the less reliance there are on the on the on the estimates um as we did last year we've included a range of assumptions uh low medium and high and I think that demonstrates the uncertainty but also demonstrates the more work that needs to be done throughout the year to refine these and then hence the need then to keep bringing it back um so the the pressures um you know high level pressures for 25/26 are ranging between 15 million and 27 million with the mid range being at 21 million and it's similar in the next couple of years um a funding from whilst governments uh we haven't had indication of what the funding is likely to be for 25/26 we've had that in the past couple of years 23/24/24/24/25 so that does make make things more challenging um so for now what's been used the assumption is the information about from the Wales fiscal analysis in the absence of anything else um that you know that's an assumption that we're working to and also assumptions um around council tax would be some discussion with council but with cabinet around this and of course nothing has been sat these are assumptions um but we've got assumptions there ranging ranging from a low at 6% to a high at 12% with the mid range being at 9% similarly to what it was in 24/25 and given the pressures are of a similar nature um that's uh and assuming no further increase in funding from whilst governments that's the assumption that we're working on um I think it's important you know for to note and you know we're in public sex in a public session here um the the pressure from no increase that the pressure that's borne out of no increase in funding from whilst government if that does happen um because of the way the council has funded 75% of our funding comes from whilst governments council tax only equates to 25% of what it costs to to run the council uh so I've mentioned the MTF as mentioned governance and order committees grew to me in terms of how that works uh and and then finally um appendix 5 so appendix 5 is the is the stress test the review budget process that was requested by this committee back at it back in its um January meeting uh it's not just being completed by myself I think it's important to point out there's been completed by the three statutory officers uh so by myself Gary as monitoring officer and um Graham as chief executive so there's a rounded um view uh of the of the risks um and um what's happened in in other um local authorities so I think that's what I all I wanted to do I realize there'll be lots of questions so I'll um I'll stop there thank you for the summary Liz just to just to summarize um but yes I mean one of the obvious questions is general question before other members could come in uh you mentioned um reports coming back to this committee we are scheduled in the work program to have budget update reports so basically what you presented here possibly with the exception of the assessment at the end uh will be uh that will be the basis of the future reports as to the timing I mean that might need to be adjusted because as you say I think it'd be good as you rightly say if from this committee it was to go to performance scrutiny and then to allow feedback to go to cabinet so the timing then they come to this committee might need to take account of that that's one of the factors to be taken account of in the work program that Gary alluded to before uh as I say thanks for doing for the report as that's that thanks for doing the report I think members should consider whether it addresses any points that they were expecting particularly those that were raised by uh lay member Nigel Rudd at the January meeting and which was subsequently circulated um I think following on from our new terms of reference which was the previous article I put it there uh it is this giving us um assurance is is this a means of giving us assurance about the management the capital of management of its financial affairs um so any questions that members might have I do a few myself but I'll throw it open to any of the members first of all I'm sure there are some yeah thank you very much and I was exhausted reading this so I'm sure you are writing it so a huge piece of work so uh well done so I will start off with the capacity of your team to deal with all this work because I know we all do our best but within a new place and these uh sorting out the trackers we say and also working on uh you know the day to day stuff so uh how's the team uh cope with all the sexual work and do you think we've got the capacity and I know we're trying to work within a budget but we have to be realistic with capacity this isn't going to change so I am worried about that so so that first one and you know it's quite clear that the work's there to track it but uh I just wanted to and imagine this two year before the meeting and I think it'd be good to clarify what would trigger an issue because uh obviously there's a lot of work and uh I'm not going to go into detail but I think it'd be good for members officers to understand so if a saving is held up due to scrutiny by members and it's substantial you know 200,000, 300,000 uh what happens to that figure because obviously if we don't do it it has to be found elsewhere so I think members should get that feedback off officers that if you do this there's an impact and that's not saying that no one should challenge any decision but I've seen some going through and in my mind I said well if you're if that's been kicked into the long grass where does it sit so that question there the tracker what would trigger a problem because we hit some targets we'll miss some and there's some in this but at what point do we end up in territory we don't want to be and what would happen then because it's new and I can't visualize it and then I've just got one I'm not going to go into details but obviously it talks about major savings of the exit scheme and I see the figures there that I think we've taken 33 we had 90-ish where we didn't accept and it says the word major well I don't think 800,000 is major and it was obviously an opportunity there to save more so why didn't we so I know there's a process but also when we're under such pressure I'd like to understand why we didn't take a bigger step when we had the opportunity because 800,000 but there's an opportunity there for several million no one wants to do it and I understand that but I'm talking about people's jobs so it's difficult but I'd just like to understand the thinking behind that from a finance point to view because there was an opportunity there a substantial one so just then a couple of questions please talk about thank you thank you so I may pull in Gary to help me with the voluntary exit scheme question at the end in terms of the capacity of the team yeah it's so it's a risk that I flag in the reports in in in 10.3 it's something that members do need to be aware of so it's something where I am keeping a careful eye on and I am in I think that's why it was important to set out within the MTFS what work was going to be done and when in because the capacity of not just the financing but the organization as well to for that for that level of work but also there is a is a prioritization going on here there is nothing more important than the budget at the moment to the organization so it is at the heart of a lot of decisions that we are making and therefore we are prioritizing there is a need to prioritize the work that we are doing so I'm concerned about it but managing it and keeping an eye on it as we work through you know and you know I do I mention there in terms of you know we've got two ongoing audits we're trying to close a set of our accounts and we've also got the small matter of bringing in the new financial system on top of the so yeah I'm very grateful and thankful to members of the finance team and on the organization because it is organization wide and that there's a lot of work going on so we're okay but we're keeping an eye and in terms of the track yeah I am in discussions with the lead member for finance around setting some flags and some triggers around tracking so tracking in terms of you know what we do we do budget monitoring and we do budget monitoring every month so it is part and parcel of this but it's it's how we present that in a way to cabinet wider membership around how are we doing because there are lessons to be learned from this because we're in a we're in a cycle of needing to find saving so I think being able to pull that out is important and some will be able to do more than others so it's something that's in the consideration and it will be something along the lines of the major proposals are obviously bigger in number so we might we want more detail on those but also then as a collective if they were a number coming forward that were not being achieved then we would also want some flag around that that there would then be flagged at cabinets but could also be something that you know scrutiny wants to take a look at as well and then you know where if it didn't of course reserves is the place we go if we don't achieve some of those we either need to make more savings in the year or we need to use our reserves to replace those and so I think it's as important when we are taking decisions when we're scrutinising decisions that the implications of those decisions are made clear and I think we do by and large you know I work closely with you know some of the more controversial decisions that being I'm working with those heads of service and I do provide through those reports comments through this the chief finance officer statements so you know there's there's an opportunity there to and we've also got the you know costs and the fact and the fact sections of our reports and in terms of the voluntary exit scheme then this was each each business case so you know volunteers came forward a business case was written by a head of service that business case considered the impact on the service by the heads of service because this is the difficulty of course it makes perfect logical sense to take volunteers rather than to be making redundant compulsorily but of course we've got services that we need to continue to deliver and what we didn't know when we opened up the scheme was would we get the volunteers in the place that we could cope with the loss of those posts and so I think that is the reason but also the cost of those individuals so it was the decisions were made around where were they could the service cope and there's things like you know would the governance of the council be be compromised and considerations like that and then also the costs of the individuals given the way things work with the local government pension scheme and the rules not set by this council but set by the local government pension scheme. Gary is there anything you'd add on that? It's not necessarily to add but just to confirm my support for what Liz has said it's important to remember that the reason why we decided upon a voluntary exit scheme was that a when you could be looking at job losses then a reasonable employer would be expected to look at what voluntary options they were in place the voluntary exits are generally cheaper than compulsory exits for the employer and the criteria that we set were that clearly it's voluntary on both sides so whilst people can volunteer it's still up to the council whether or not it's suitable for the council and the criteria that was given to heads of service in dealing with voluntary applications was will it achieve a saving over a reasonable period and actually can the business stand at the departure of those rules so for example we have recruitment and retention issues in certain areas it would be very difficult for us to justify telling everybody that we had severe recruitment and retention difficulties and then allow voluntary exits and we'd probably be rightly criticized for doing that and secondly the point Liz makes as well as around the pension strain so this is not payment that goes to individuals but if people are of retirement age then there is a varying degree of money that has to be paid to the pension fund to compensate for them being able to access their pensions early which the individual doesn't receive but which can be quite significant sums to the council and clearly all of those things were taken into account in dealing with the applications that were made so yes there were a large number of applications that were turned down for a mixture of either they wouldn't make the saving over a reasonable period or because we just couldn't allow people in certain areas to leave because we would still need to provide a service and of course there were some people who were made offers because for individuals there may be more than one route to voluntary exit each carrying a different cost and if the one that stacked up for the council didn't stack up for the individual and clearly it's voluntary they would compel to take it and they would have had to consider that in all of their own individual circumstances so that's basically why they would have been 33 out of a number of 130 odd period volunteered so I hope that helps yeah that's fine but moving forward we might not have the choice in the future so I know there's a process but that might have to be locked out financially where we don't have a choice but thanks for the responsibility it makes sense thank you any other questions from members I've put a few something Paul with them thank you chair um Liz I think it's a good report and once I started reading it I couldn't put it down it was that category of a read um but in your introduction under section 10 what risks are there um in my working life I was a member of a team I've commented to a team putting in a new financial system at the time for Cheshire County Council um a couple of things are out of that experience made me think given that I sense that most officers these days are in the situation that if they have to do a new task they have to drop an existing one it or at least postpone it you know it's that tight um you've said it's being introduced from the 1st of April um does that mean it has been introduced right okay and does that then mean just revenue or is capital involved in that as well that was the first question it covers everything it was all of our financial system so it's revenue capital budget reporting how we pay and status as well so it's a it's a it's a one it's a software that covers all our financial solutions that we're brought in okay um presumably then and this is the next question um in the case of capital you'll be loading data and in the case of everyone you'll be carrying out training that to me are priorities and themselves are individual risks aren't they um and I see that you may mention that the reports the monthly reports may not be available till September but presumably that that is quite a big risk it could it could drop after that if training failed or because you're past the testing parallel running side it's up and live yeah it was just to get a clarification in my mind yeah so suppose what we've focused on initially is making sure that we can pay our suppliers pay our staff um so that was the initial focus but there has been a data team working on for some months um and in terms of the system it's a very um it's an intuitive system but we've done a lot around training in terms of putting training guide because of course it it touches everybody because it's about how you order and how you pay it touches everybody across the organization there's been a lot of work to have what we're calling service champions in each service so they've been involved in testing the system so they're getting there is somebody within each service that somebody knows who are there our go-to people um we've then got go-to people within finance who are you know that they'll be doing the debtors they'll be doing the payments they'll be doing the system um the the reason for the budget the monitoring report is the setting up of the monitoring report was coming later on in the schedule because we had to we wanted to go for the first of april um and things you know i i've got to give my thanks to the wider team that's involved in this um things are you know touching and and crossing but so far things are going are going well um so um we hope to get the budget monitoring up and running sooner i think we think september is the is the is the is the is the the risk that it goes to but yeah i can't provide the guarantee that definitely it will be done something may crop up that takes the the time away from that um but so far nothing is indicating from our from our time schedule but i've actually got a a lesson learned project team meeting tomorrow morning to to review how it's going thank you thank you lice thank you chair that's real sure thank you okay um some questions from myself oh Nigel Rhodes if all right come in as chair Nigel thank you thank you chair um i've got an opening a couple of questions and then i've got a couple of questions on each of the appendices chair and it might be that that if you have simile we dovetail as we go through those reports just to suggest if you to think about in terms of process of the meeting um Liz the the the opening uh common i have is partly around star capacity and Paul picked up on this um the tracker report it seems to me to be absolutely essentially if we got a doubt about the delivery of monthly regular reporting under the new financial system are you confident that that will be adequate in in terms of what the council needs in the initial months and the second one is i've been tracking the staff briefing sessions that uh officers and members have been having i'll be interested in some feedback from you and Gary as to what the key points are that have been coming through from those staff briefing sessions in relation to the budgets that are currently uh being discussed thanks chair i'll just respond to those now Liz and then yeah as what i should have added is that although um i suppose we're i think we're fortunate in this council we um we do monthly budget monitoring reports and actually the efficiency within within that information is produced is of a is of a is of a high standard um and it's getting back to that is what we want to but in as to provide assurance to this committee we have a sort of a a default position where we would track the higher risk budget where things would move on a more manual basis rather than an automated basis but it's getting back to the automation that of course is is what we want to do for um in terms of efficiency and then similarly in terms of the tracker um you know some of the things in there are very small in nature and it's uh well we're just not going to do that therefore we're not going to look incur the cost i think we're safe in saying well that has been achieved and therefore we don't need to be focusing on that some of the others however though are intertwined with the regular budget monthly budget um monitoring that we do and therefore they will be picked up in in that way so if that hope that um provides some assurance uh in terms of the the staff road shows uh yeah we were doing uh i think eight or nine uh in total um we've done three online for office more more for office um workers and we have been two one two we've done got the third this afternoon at the at the depot so that's our um operatives in in waste um but also in in street scene um i think they've been well received um to get a better understanding um of what the council's financial position um is um lots of questions comments and queries been made the main takeaway i think for myself has been um around um the need for engagement with the public around the council's financial position um and also um understanding that you know how local government finance is complicated and about you know the difference between the hra budget the capital budget the grants that we get uh and also then you know the issue which is predominantly revenue budget so um and uh but i and i think that's influenced in terms of what i've put in the the anti-FS around the communications plan for the budget and the need to do some more work um with the public around that of course it's difficult um but i think there's more work to do thank you nice Nigel i think you've said you've got some questions on each of the appendices so i've got a few question each appendix as well so i think we'll take one appendix at a time and not just for you and me you go first but then if if other members present across so on the appendix we'll we'll deal with each appendix at the time i think so did you want to go is any other general points you want to make Nigel or do you want to go into appendix one appendix one chair if we can okay just before you do without then can i just make the point and the the recovery board um there's the again uh as was as Mark Young mentioned the um the risks on the finance team we do note those and you know it um i think two things from that do you feel that they're adequately managed with a corporate risk 51 is the risk that economic and financial environment worsens and results in the capital inability to set a balanced budget and a lot of things you're talking about are the controls and the mitigated controls on that risk so if those controls were you said they're being managed despite the difficulties if it got to the point where there's a tipping point and the the danger of not being managed they come unmanageable let me say that but that way you feel that that that will be managed within the scope of corporate risk reporting system what i'm saying is is that if you did get into difficulties you've got adequate means of reporting to whoever and including this committee as well yeah of escalation i suppose that's why i included it in the report yeah i thought it would remiss if we not to include absolutely yeah yeah yeah absolutely okay if i appendix one Nigel thank you chair uh again this is a really good report list and and therefore my my questions are prompted by the value of the report are not intended to be a negative challenge um but in terms of of bits that i was looking at or that occur to me going through um if you go to appendix one uh which talks about strategic savings and non-strategic savings um would you agree with me that in the early phase of the identification of major service savings etc there's likely to be a bigger impact and result from a year one exercise than there will be in year two than in year three in other words there'd be a likely to be a declining curve of savings to be identified and achieved within the council over a period of time question um i mean in other words it's likely to see the low hanging fruit taken first in terms of savings to be achieved and it becomes more difficult over time to identify yeah i but i think that's already happened in a way you know i think that's happened through austerity you know to use that phrase um it go i suppose it goes back to um the words that we use to describe some of these things it's um you know we were using efficiency savings and then it turns into budget reductions and then it turns into um reductions in services or cuts um and i think um over the years um that's why i've included the graph on the the mTFS to sort of show um you know we have been making efficiencies and therefore yes it is getting more challenging um and that's when i think then to sort of come back to answer the question then um in the the later years that is when it is requiring something more fundamental and more transformational in order to make the savings yeah and which is where i was going on that and i think that the the part of the purpose and the benefit and the opportunity of the drive-through in terms of the financial review and the management challenge that you've got around the budget is a culture change within the authority and a behavior change and a role change in the authorities been driven by necessity but also by desire in terms of getting and wishing to remain a high performing authority has to be driven on the base of a transformation of budget rather than a transformation of service and a transformation of council behavior and culture rather than more of the same but less on it uh and i and i think that the although it's difficult i think the reality is that these reports that are coming through are at the leading edge of driving that change in terms of culture and behavior at both the political and the officer level in my opinion and i think that is a good thing and needs to be supported um in terms of their intent the other bit of culture that are still sense we are struggling with within the council goes back to this this summary of how the council makes its money and you talk about the 25 council tax and talk about the 75 percent again consolidated external funding support grant similar um within the 25 council tax funded activity there is of course an area that is not effectively council tax funding that's fees and charges lives now income from fees and charges is a separate part of the pie chart in my opinion from the council tax 25 part of the pie chart we may include it as part of the 25 percent for summary purposes but there is it it is in fact a separate slice of fees and charges do have you um a view as to how much of a percentage of the moment that slice is of the pie chart that is not part of the 25 council tax income and fees please list uh i haven't got it to hand but i know that information is available and it's it's the um the differences in terms of what we're talking about when i'm talking 75-25 and of course talking of our net budget rather than our gross budget so i think they're the two separate pie charts in a way um so um you know we'll be looking at gross budgets and um income uh in in a separate pie chart i haven't got it in front of me to hand but i know it's available i know it's um it's some of the work that we did around budget comes for the 24-25 information so i know that that is readily available i just haven't got it to hand at the moment and i wouldn't want to to quote so that income isn't part of that 25 percent it's a separate pie chart um i you know to sort of expand on that um one of the work streams in the anti-FS that needs doing is around the and it's part of a transformation as well is around opportunities to maximize income through fees and charges so i think it's one what are we already charging for and what position are we at how we at full cost recovery um are we not um other questions then you know something that where the fee is set statutory how much is it costing us compared to what are we getting in from a statutory point of view when was the statutory fee last reviewed how we talk to whoever it is that sets the statutory fee possibly through other with other counsels through the wlga um around that um um and then you know more than that then what opportunities are there um for income generation through possibly but more on a transformation agenda and i think those are pieces of work that we need to do this year yeah i agree with that Elizabeth and i come back to the points i made in January and point seven covers uh that and the ability to do i think to use that 2016 SIP for benchmark on fees and charges to order defectively across the council with um is is a pretty good document to refer to and trying to um dig out um exactly those those questions about full cost recovery or making sure we're actually charging in areas that we ought to or could do depending on political desire uh and i and i say that on the basis the also in that uh note in January is a reference to the plant the fact that planning fees have been raised by 25 to 35 percent in England in december 23 and whether we've been following a similar approach as a planning authority in Wales in liaison with others to try and ensure not lifting fees returned on that um i mean that that any anything that requires collaboration um i'm reassured that there is discussion between finance and audit staff i hope um that there is similar discussion between the key planning staff or other professional staff across north Wales at least um when trying to lobby or refer or put pressure on wealth government in order to pursue a review of fees and charges and unless you're going to tell me otherwise i hope that that is is the case in terms of issues like planning fees for example just before we go on don't have us about to mention fees and charges do we use that sit for uh guide a benchmarking guide um i i don't know the answers about solid david um it's something that we will make reference to in this the in the review that we're planning um i'm hoping to bring that to the autumn updates um of of this because it you know that's um it's a cross cutting piece of work across the the organization um and we'll take a bit of time um uh because i you know in some of the savings that are in there there is some income but again it's not clear what is income and what is the savings and i want to i think we need to draw that out better um i agree with the points that have been made but we will make reference that sip of document it's a useful summary of how to do it but also one place the where what can you charge for what can you not charge for what's that you know it's very useful it just linked in what i was thinking was uh there's some of that Nigel raised in january about uh whenever it shows so the income maximization i think it does in appendix two and under the non-structural savings but each of those is subject it's not just i'm going to say that each one has been considered that there's a robust business case behind each one to justify that and to optimize and maximize income where wherever we can so that it's really the assurance of for that i was looking at so perhaps more in the autumn on that probably say yeah not more yeah you know never come back to Nigel yeah just on the on the fees so i think all councils have been very slow in increasing some areas and when you see this the extra increase you think god why didn't he do that sooner but that also means you have a big increase in one go which causes unrest with elected members and members of the public so i'm guessing we're now going to be doing that annually rather than leave it several years we're going to do small sensible increases annually rather than revisit it and end up in places where we're doing large ones and it also helps the financial position doesn't it so is that approach we're taking now Frank yeah i think that's already in the fees and charges policy that we've got um but i think sometimes um we have to be mindful of um the impact of the fee on those that are you know paying it and and also mindful of sometimes it's the practicality of being able to raise the fee and the cost associated with the raising of of the fee that sometimes it's not always as straightforward as we would hope so that is the general policy but there's often a reason as to why you know that comes into it but also you know sometimes there's you know there's the number we have to change signage and things like that so sometimes every year doesn't isn't quite fit but i think there should be at least a consideration every year and if we haven't put it up why haven't we put it there should be information around that i just push back on that i better understand what you're saying but when i'm reading the income and there's several million there all of a sudden and we haven't done some for years and years there's an impact if it isn't reviewed as there's my point for point-taking thank you. Do you want to proceed? I'm happy to move on to appendix two chair after you again. Okay appendix two which i had i think it was just in terms of the consistency of having for example external income parts of your report is so that that became a requirement across all areas in terms of the expectation that would be a raising of fees or charges where we can at least the question is asked and i wasn't convinced that that was necessarily being applied consistently also as service areas that's the first question i think that relates to i think what the discussion we've worked with appendix two is about what's been brought for with this year i think what we're saying is that we will do that for next year through the review of fees and charges and income consistently across across all all service departments okay yeah happy with that no more on appendix two chair i've got no question appendix two okay to the members okay appendix three so appendix three um item 10 on the table there which is the investment in priorities is that uh talk about i think subsequently coastal and other elements that have been agreed by council elsewhere um where and how is the transformation budget reflected in proposals i couldn't quite make the connection uh in that particular appendix list so the investment of priorities is primarily well it is the impact of capital decision so that's what's been brought through in the investment priorities um the question around um the costs of transformation they um i would envisage that they would be through um and i suppose it's additional service pressures would be part of it um but also some of that will be funded i think from possibly reserves and possibly capital receipts but that's a piece of work that's yet to be done and needs to be done to confirm budgets for transformation going idle yeah i i thought um it was really good on appendix three to get it down the one's one side of a four landscape lures i think is is um an aim to be achieved and to be applauded with because i think it does capture um the figures going forward the comment i would make um is that we need to move away from a perception that we're very uncertain about what's happening therefore we're uncertain about the figures we are not alone in actually in dealing with scenarios where everything is changeable and everything is uncertain whether it's government at a central level or government at a local level in any other organization we're all facing the same external uncertainties and part of the audit well as report was actually quite useful in summarizing the context within which we are working and i think that the it it is however a a real benefit on us in terms of trying to predict the figures and the way that we are in this three year forecast and the implications for council tax that are set out but not necessarily yet agreed obviously within this paperwork because that they are they are it's much easier to manage um in in those circumstances uh and if you can measure it you can manage it and where we can't measure it we can't manage it to use an old management sort of jargon comment but it's absolutely essential no matter how fallible these figures are is that we do have them there and we attempt to refine them over time as the living document that we're talking about and i commend you for the efforts being made and your team in trying to get us in appendix three is actually a really really important report and i'd delighted to see it on the agenda this morning just boston appendix three just a question of mind please on the um school's demography line um that's the same that's shown as being the same for each of the three years the the low medium and high gap is the same each year i'm not challenging that in any way i just trying to understand it because from elsewhere in the report i understood one of the reasons for the slightly in slightly increased funding uh from the Welsh government for the for the year that now in uh school's meals data is school meals data is used for that i just wondered by if are we comfortable that the school's demography figures are going to remain the same for the next three years uh so we've used those as starting figures i think they are to be refined it that will be pupil numbers driven but it'll be driven as of the september the year before the start of the financial year so for you know april twenty four twenty five you use the september twenty three pupil data um it differs to the way Welsh government do theirs they use the plask data the pupil level on the old census or something like that stands for and that's the january um prior so there's a little bit of a difference there so it's it's pupil numbers rather than the free school meals data because that's a measure of deprivation rather than a measure of uh yep um so we've we've used those in the absence of everything of anything else but they will change as the data becomes um available yeah customer aims yeah no no that's right yeah so as Nigel said it's got up the figures but what what is me is the difference in some of the figures so now i've seen it i'm not going to sleep tonight so i'm sure you don't because some of the figures are are double so and it's right and proper the figures are there but at what point do we have to decide say wait because happiness share responsibility at what point you share you decide what figure you're going to work to because social services is three million or six i could do the same with children services and school inflation so at what point do you have to take a stab a professional stab because uh there's a massive difference yeah so so the idea is always to have the context within what we're operating in is what's coming because you know it'd be very different if we were if it was a one-year issue and then everything looks okay for the next two years isn't it the decisions you would make then would be different so you want the context so you always are thinking the in the future and in an ideal world i'd like this to be a five year forecast not a two year three year forecast the problem with trying to do a five year one that was two the numbers are so uncertain it's not it's it's no there's no value in it so that that's why we've only got three years um so the the two years at the end they're always higher level and you always keep to that you um probably after you would turn the summary process and we move into the autumn that's when we but that's when data starts to crystallize for the next financial year you start to get the data like the pupil data we will have um we will be able to do um on you know around social care and things we will start to get pieces of the jigsaw that then inform what those pressures are doing they're still estimates but it means the range is narrowing um so you know these do show you know they're the range from the low to the high um with the middle it will probably be somewhere like the middle but the middle won't be made up of what for those individual items it might be some from the high some from the low that will come into the middle and i think if we looked back at this report that went last year the figures were something similar but we did end up at the midpoint although if you looked through what was in the table and what those values were they didn't necessarily um turn out to be what they were in in at the initial start but the bottom line was so that that here therein lies the value in doing it yeah yeah and thanks for that and you know fingers crossed but with inflation as it is internationally and all the graphs on that uh is some of these are going to be on the worst case scenario so i guess we're we have to deal with it when we deal with it but it it just shows the difficulty and the challenge uh we're all under the mtfs is by it's by nature and iterative document and we're going to get different iterations of this updated versions of it every uh during the year that's i think appendix three nine you've got in there's an appendix three appendix four Nigel yeah appendix four chair um again an excellent report lives going hand in hand with with the previous one on page four of the risks that you've identified there in terms of pay award pension fund and renewal review um have you got any uh feeling as to the likely outcome of the pension fund triangle review at this point it is not yet um and that's why i've included a risk section because it's things that we're watching uh and uh finding it difficult to put a number around it as yet so that that the way of keeping um an eye on um we should start to get information in the coming months around that but i i'm not aware of anything yet i know where there's may have put a figure in it um but i'm not sure on what that basis they put those figures on okay the second bit on that list on council tax reforms what's your latest reading of the Welsh government proposals for the future uh yeah early discussions on this um you know they had a consultation um around how this how this would happen um they're viewing it from a point of view of the from um you know though it changes and the changes will affect every householders but in terms of budget there shouldn't be an overall increase or decrease um but from some of the data i've seen for this council um the impact for this council would be quite a shift in the percent so you know if because of course our rsg the way we get funded from Welsh government is around equalization of need based on ability to pay council tax um the impact on membership would be a shift in that we you know and if it on and again high level estimates current estimates the shift might move from 75 25 to 80 20 um so it's quite a difference um in that and therefore our reliance on grant is higher and that's why i'm flagging it as a risk um but how the mechanics of that works through to the formula is something i'm yet to fully um to fully understand yet from from some of the papers that i've seen in some of the discussions i've been involved in but it's a it's a live issue and as supplementary to that is there any suggestion from Welsh government that council tax capping will be introduced in Wales in the same ways it applies in England nothing that i've heard nothing that i have heard but i'm not involved in all the conversations that go on but nothing there's been no discussion at treasury level or anything like that that i'm aware of but it does seem to me that if that policy or that approach had uh or was introduced into Wales in the future would make life even more difficult potentially at a local level yeah um sorry chair sorry go on Nigel um my other comment on page uh six of that that's page 48 in the pack i think it is when you talk about the paragraph it's important to note that there are some budgets within the overall net revenue budget where it's not possible to implement any savings for example the levy to Wales Fire and Rescue Authority and two questions did we ever get to scrutinize the north Wales Fire and Rescue Authority levy in terms of its components and how it's justified is the first question please and the second question is presumably under member allowances members can decide not to take an increase in their allowance and effectively therefore deliver a saving those are the two questions um i'm going to defer to Gary and the member of the islands is and i i will defer to another member of the committee around the north Wales Fire and Rescue Authority because we have a member of the north Wales Fire and Rescue Authority that's around the table it might not be yeah so i have previously declared interest i don't know if i have to again Gary but it would be a personal anyway so uh that group uh is made up from members across north Wales and we do have a working group what does scrutinize uh and that's politically balanced and a pro-rata figure from each authority and uh they do request a damn chair of that group i don't even think i had a choice but it works well i think last year we met over all 30 times which is a lot but it was a lot because we knew the challenge of knocking it right the knock on effect so that working group is going to carry on uh obviously i don't think you'll need to meet that often but i i think it's uh it's a good group it does papers reports because i've been copied in so these are always more to do i'm not sure i think it can be called in i'll let Gary come in on that book so they have got a budget working group and it it does work very well uh i'm good member involvement okay any else Nigel on appendix four i've put myself on appendix four oh sorry i was waiting for Gary chair i beg your pardon sorry Gary just on the member allowances um our old friend local government Wales measure says that the independent remuneration panel for Wales sets member salaries called salaries now rather than allowances um there are certain salaries that we have to pay um and there are other salaries that are optional for us to pay but where we pay them we have to pay them at the rate set by the independent remuneration panel um it is not possible for the council to determine that allowances would be our salaries would be at a different level to that which is published by the uh ipw and it's not possible for the council to decide to forgo on behalf of all members uh elements of their salary it is possible for individual members to forgo all or any part of their salary but the um very much the advice and drive from Welsh government to the wlga is that that's discouraged because of the uh agenda around diversity in democracy and participation so um i think the strap line the irp w used in their first annual report was to prevent an unedifying race to the bottom um and the uh certainly the agenda about increased participation um from all walks of life um people are encouraged to um avoid a situation where people feel pressured into taking less than the salary that is allocated to them by the irp w gary now do you want to come back on that those points uh uh nothing more on appendix 4 chair yeah on appendix 4 just for myself uh on pack page 48 sorry pack page 50 megapod um reserves and balances um got no problem with what's shown there just i'm aware uh thinking uh previous um there's been previous uh mentioned previous in this meeting of section 114 and what happened to some of the english authorities there and you rightly we're only going to appendix 5 you will look at that uh but um one of the things has been a running down of reserves there and there can be i know um there's there can be political pressure to do that um to use usable reserves to fund the gap now with the result being that we can run into problems in in the future obviously you're well aware of that uh but if there were to be political pressure in the future for that here i'm not suggesting that there are for a moment at the currently but if there were to be uh are you uh is there assurance that we can manage that risk or the other words you would be able to do something about it or that the council would be able to do something about it obviously if it's if it's a democratic political decision that's made but that it needs to be it might need to be challenged and very carefully thought through so what would be the process then if that would i think the pressure would happen i think there are a number um things in place to to attempt to safeguard this so i think firstly you know the um having a reserves and balances strategy so that that is you know there's this there's wide discussion and engagement around that so we've got a planned use for that so there is some information there and some of that's come from the the budget but i think there's more work to do on that um there is also though as part of budget setting a requirement on the section of i've won officer to give a comment um at budget setting time on the advocacy of reserves and balances um so there are a number of things there um but also i suppose in the advice then that's provided by myself and the finance team then on the use of reserves um is something that we um you know provide that advice needs to be clear um and uh i think that's when trends and things difficult with reserves you know reserves are held for a rainy day if we're not in a rainy day now then you know for they but again it is it's part of how we manage risks of unforeseen things coming forward so that's where different reserves help with different purposes and the use and strategy around those are important it's taking account of the rainy days in the future as well as as per the the medium term financial strategy yeah okay but it's just in that situation that if if there was pressure that you you feel adequately supported by officers and other structure of the council yeah that's why there's a strategy there's an you know an opportunity to discuss that i mean just on that you might not have a choice so we might one day hope it never comes we might have to and that's what they said that's that rainy day isn't it so it might be out of all our hands in the future but then you'd have a plan etc. On appendix four uh we're just going to appendix five which is the assessment that was done can i just say appreciate this assessment has been done it and the way it's been done i noticed that as you rightly said include the monitoring officer and the chief executive that's good that's thanks for uh doing it that way i noticed what you say the different i know what you say the differences in erasers of England and Wales but i think you're right it's not the same situation but there are lessons to be learned from what's happened to the eight to date English or five that have gone down section one one four routes um you say what's worrying there in England there's a number of people who think there that could happen to the council it'd be interested i know you'd be probably more tired but it'd be interesting to know what if there's some information available for the whales uh just to say i don't think damish or alone in considering one section one one four and the associated risks i know uh section one one four risk for damish was mentioned in some media i think it's back in the autumn in some media garbage that that that went out uh but just to say that um mark council young myself and bob charry went to the all whales uh audit chairs meeting back in the autumn and that was one of the things that was discussed then as well for Wales so you know we're not alone in considering the section one one four risks um just to before being uh other members and i know Nigel will have something on this for sure uh but uh i know that since the monitoring officer and the chief executive we're involved in this assessment uh would you say that they found it useful uh and also i noticed uh yesterday um this that this report went to cabinet yesterday was any mention made of that assessment there uh i don't think there was cabinets um but of course we have discussed states um and at informal meetings before it came to um to cabinet um i found it useful having graham and gary's input into it because of course you know it's it's my view of things but you know getting a more rounded view um gary i don't know what what was your well i think that um one of the the most important sets of relationship within the organization between the relevant statutory officers and um i found going through this with graham and liz really helpful i think it helps us all focus our minds on what's important and one risk there might be uh and clearly it gives us a focus for working together in terms of how we manage those risks going forward and i hope liz feels supported by graham and myself i certainly feel supported by liz and graham so i think um we're in a good place to be able to manage these risks as a as a team of statutory officers thank you uh questions on this from members on appendix five right on page six back page 61 um the third bullet point says it currently reviewing the role of scrutiny in budget setting process for both revenue and capital we've really talked about this uh early on today and the terms of reference report but anything else you want to add to that um no i think it's a discussion we have with uh chairs and vice chairs and i think i i think they've called me to their main meeting anyway to have a discussion um so we will you know part we talked about revenue but i think we haven't talked about um is capital and something that needs to happen so that will that will take place just a small point but the bullet point says currently reviewing the role of scrutiny in budget setting process presumably um for also in financial performance as well yeah yeah just if you look at all the documents and work which is being carried out and this will be the new norm i just wonder whether a committee just focusing on it would be a benefit to the council not on the answer now but i think it should be yeah yeah because i do think it's a lot of work it doesn't have to meet that regularly i just wonder whether that would be a place to take it transfer all the questions which are going to come up and i just think it's it's worth considering oh i can see Gary's got his hand up so he's going to come in and doesn't lose uh yes i was just going to say i think chairs and vice chairs are scrutiny and meeting uh in about three weeks um and as well as liz i i go to those meetings anyway but liz is coming i think the lead is coming to that meeting as well to discuss these issues um in terms of uh the role of scrutiny then clearly uh we'll be giving members hopefully some options to think about um and you know we'll be in members hands because clearly it's it's it's their process for them to work make sure that they're exercising their functions appropriately and we'll certainly give them advice on how to do that uh but i think to be fair to them we need to have that discussion with them before we talk too much about what individual options might be but it's actively under consideration okay thank you Nigel Rood thank you chair um liz the timetable that's on pages 12 to 13 or 54 55 on the budget activity through the summer recess um i still think that there needs to be a tighter dove tailing and potentially with gary on the timing of which meeting takes place way um we fundamentally need to avoid what happened last year when um council met and agreed certain decisions and then gac got to see it afterwards i think the benefit of having gac operating as a shield of protection around decisions is to try and ensure that we get in at the right time and i'm not necessarily comfortable that that we've got it ideally set out yet and that's something that will i know you gary i think was looking forward to the next 18 months and stuff that we need to just try and think when looking at meeting dates what is it in terms of that part of the year that we actually need to be doing and how it can be best benefit cabinet and then council um in order to achieve that um and i i just flagged that i don't think we're quite quite very yet on that um doesn't need to be sorted out at this meeting but i would ask you to look at it away from the meeting what i what i have um i would like to say is i think this is great this report it's exactly what we discussed and i anticipated my january meeting and i think it's been a very good discipline and i think i hope it's a very positive discipline from an officer perspective i watched cabinet yesterday there was no comment made on the appendices uh that went with your report list of which uh which this has won and i think that there is a real opportunity here i think to get to get to closer member engagement going forward um and if you're doing it outside of cabinet fine but i think it's a really important um opportunity at a political level um for gwyneth uh and colleagues to um more closely identify with some of the issues prior to them becoming major issues and having to be resolved in in short notice i just sense there's a that as this is a first draft through and there are a number of reports on the first draft through trying to uh improve them or reject them taking on board member comments is equally important outside of the gac prison gallery in order to make them meaningful to members but on on the particular issue i have asked for you leads to consult with Arlene Close as to whether they can provide an opinion on the implications of the captive program going forward and to look within gac at stress testing the revenue implications of the proposed capital program within gac i know the last time i raised this you said you had a meeting in hand but uh like an update on that one please yes yeah i think um to be fair of all the points raised i think when i got to the end i think i'd covered most things but the capital side of things is where there is more work um to be done um there there is the there is work to be done on capital in terms of linking that through um to revenue implications and what that means for capital budget setting moving forward and that's um that's to come that's next if you like um i wanted to get this done first um so it's more of a capacity issue than not knowing that it needs doing um and as part of that then a conversation um with Arlene Close at the committee's um request and so it was what i would say on that although it's not documented it's not in here you know i'm hoping to include something for the next iteration um what i would say though is if you had watched cabinet yesterday you know the discussions at cabinet were around you know we're linking the capital decisions through to the revenue implications and there was an item specifically around schools and there's a very long debate um around needs but also around the affordability um so i hope that at least demonstrates um uh how the council is is is dealing and um it looking at that precise issue um that you have um you have raised um and then a wider point about member engagement yes you know that i think it's covered in the um in the MTFS um but we've all so we've had three member workshops um i think i've sent that information to the to the lay members of this committee for their wider information so we've had three budget workshops you know to catch up on 24/25 which i think have been well received by members um but we've also got two workshops that are now planned in for june it's around uh updating on the you know the the challenge and what does the next three years look like the processes and the pieces of work that we've got in place in order to um address that but also to get their engagement around transformation um so the the you know the journey around transformation is also starting thank you anything else on appendix five that's just coming back on that switch out i think um it's clear that cabinet is getting uh and has huge challenges obviously for the council and there is some very meaningful debate and discussion around schools and specifics on businesses i think if we can get the authority into um as part of this culture change or behavior change or focus uh by using some of these um plans and strategies through as part of that i think uh it will benefit uh the whole authority but it's also about trying to ensure a reasonable understanding of the council itself about what's going on and we talk about public engagement in terms of the community and still not convinced for example in terms of the business community necessarily that we've got a proper communication process going particularly with one eye on the redistribution of pool national non-domestic rate so i i think there's more to be done but the the the kernel of that is getting the council on the same foot on the same verse of the hymn sheet together is it the second issue then about improving as you said at the start of the meeting the wider understanding within the community which also needs to be supported as sorry i'm supportive of that all with them thank you chair it was really just reflecting on the the terms of reference that we discussed earlier where there is scope for this committee to make recommendations um or to consider other aspects of the council i'm just wondering whether taking account of the the references to cabinet yesterday even so is there merit in having appendix five or indeed any of these papers um formally circulated to all members of the council just a thought it would be if it was in the cabinet the cabinet papers got circulated anyhow don't they yes all members get all papers for all committees and so they are circulated to all members and made available and as was said there is there are council workshops coming up as well where much of this will be discussed um with all members just if you cover items briefly other appendix five uh from um on the bit on pack page 61 the box about that sit for advice governance arrangement should be strengthened and include the ability to speak truth to power i like the wording it is it uh presumably that's sit for the wording is it speak truth to power or is it is it yours that's fairly good that's uh so but uh i think i just wonder if there's presumably the annual government statement is and that is uh which is referred to in the right and side that is being uh in the process of being put together now i just wondered if there's any merit in putting this uh this part of this table actually included in the annual government statement i mean this is a vital you know i'm just aware just thing what Nigel said before about um different reports we need to change the culture of the authority and i'm aware the cabinet always the danger that everything is put in little compartments with you the annual government statement because we have to do the annual government statement by law uh you know we have to produce one well and it's put and as an appendix to the statement of accounts i just thought anything to do with the things we're talking about today uh possibly this whole table um but certainly this box of that table consideration should be given to including that in the AGS and also um on page 63 link to that um you talk about the delay the understandable delay in renewing the the update of the financial regs i understand that completely and there's no criticism there but theoretically at least that could increase the risk of uh mis financial business management or it could create problems that say um and i just wonder is that going to be included as a specific item in the annual government statement i know i know it's only you're drafted down your group yeah um do a take the comments away um i i have no i have no real concerns that we haven't updated the financial regs um because the controls and neither they're tested those controls are tested um as part of the production of the governance statement so you know there's a suite of audits that are done by bob and the team um and they're all coming back with high um assurance around that um it's just that you know it's it's good practice to be reviewing things regularly um but i can see uh little point in when we're already when capacity is an issue in doing this now when actually the change of t1 and the new financial systems may mean that there is a a legal requirement needed yeah well i'll fully take that i'm not suggesting the moment they should be done there it's a risk there might be a slight risk that we have to live with for a number of years but i suppose the longer that takes the greater risk becomes i thought it might be something not as a necessary as a significant issue in the on your government statement but somebody to be flagged up as someone that is it waiting in the wings to be done as it works just to be noted so it doesn't get forgotten about this that's all i want to say on the appendix five any any other points on this report as a whole? Members? Nigel? Yeah last comment for me and it's intended for audit Wales that i think that the appendix five and the work of the two to exact the monitoring officer and the chief financial officer uh is pretty good uh and pretty good practice and out of thought that audit Wales might be interested in suggesting or promoting this uh approach as an element of good practice within the local government the current time or given the opportunity might wish to do so because i think it is towards the forefront of thinking and doing in relation to local government management at the point of time and i suggest that toward it Wales to think about not necessarily sign up to now but just to think about in terms of support of our staff here and there was one cabinet member that did thank Liz and the team for the work on this yesterday and i think the GAC as a whole clearly Liz are very supportive of your work on here and i'm sure the chair would endorse that to you and your team and the other officers involved in this whole section of reports chair absolutely support that and just i think we've said earlier there's that the the other reports that we get we need to look at the time table has been said but basically we're going to get this report again updated the the earlier exception of that possibly might be appendix five we're not going to say resume that's not going to be done i think we just need to agree how frequently that should be done so in my mind you um the the july committee and i think this does work in terms of timescale so the 24th of july i think is the is the where you would receive an updated medium term financial plan and an updated medium term financial strategy and a cover report to go with that um and the cabinet then meets the week after so there is an opportunity for any comments any observations to be drawn to attention of cabinet before it considers um the report it's not the where the dates specifically are not aligning at the moment is around um the scrutiny but again we haven't had that discussion with scrutiny yeah i'm just looking to see what they're trying to take on and i think it also works with an amount november sort of cycle um as well uh yeah the evidence and all i um there's not work quite so well in the ordinance autumn but that i'm working with the dates that are already in the calendar um around that but it certainly works for the next iteration so that's the way i see it the the the tracker um would be coming to cabinet um i can certainly include the tracker if that's something that members wanted as well um any comments on the on the tracker um so okay i'll do that in thank you appendix five here the uh assessment that was done against section one one four i don't think we need that done several times no i see that as a as a as a this is a one well a one-off if you wanted an update to it in future years we could do that but i i see that as a as a one-off for assurance per se members think as a one-off or we'd like to see another one say after a year 18 months uh given the uh the way the strategy is looking um appendix three um it could be in 18 months time but ask me then Nigel uh i think we need to keep a weather on it so i think maybe review it on a year's time uh we don't need it to every meeting but we need to review it uh given the rapidly changing context in which we're all operating can we set a year's time it's yeah yeah i can build that into the to the plan um yeah and see how it's looking the motion before is uh the recommendation before is that the committee considers and provides feedback for cabinet on the updates listed in 2.1 above i think we've got quite a bit of feedback there and we can't go through this all now how um Gary and Liz your advice on how to treat this recommendation we can agree it but it's just uh we're asked to provide feedback there i mean how how do we how do we provide that feedback sorry i was just checking i wasn't muted um i i think essentially then probably if Liz and i draw up what we think the feedback is and share it with you as chair and vice chair and then we can build that into the regular meetings that we have with cabinet around budget um speaking overlays i don't know if Liz agrees with that um thank you sensible that sounds good yeah the um the the only thing that that has me mentioned that i was going to say was uh something else i think that needs to go into our message is that when it's transformation and things that alternative service delivery options there needs to be a long-term vision and open-mindedness there i'm thinking of turkeys and christmas and uh you know that that's more always been one of the criticisms of of that so just the stress that needs to be a long-term vision for that and open-mindedness as to the solutions that work best um so so uh i think as of the committee considers and provides feedback for cabinet feedback is to be um agreed by myself and vice chair so um is is is that someone propose that please mark young someone to second it all with them all in favor okay thank you very much and thanks again Liz for reporting and for answering the questions there it's now uh quarter past 12 just gone i think we need a quick five-minute break maybe ten-minute break and then we'll come back swiftly deal with treasury management the work program and then the information reports my intent was to finish by half-12 it might be going over half till a little bit there but uh we've got a good discussion on that last item so good thank you very much back in ten minutes time that's five minutes ten minutes that'd be mercy be fairly quick now um i'm sorry that the indicative of times of not being very indicative but it's trying to sort of uh look into a crystal ball and predict how long something's going to be we're now going to move on to item six which is the treasury management update report Liz do you want to give a very brief summary of this well i mean it's brief as you want as long as i've gone but there i'm taking it's going to be brief so thank you yeah thank you chair so this is the um the quarter quarterly treasury management update um and the table in the cover report on page 66 of your pack gives you the schedule uh for this uh financial year and then the details are in appendix one on page 71 i think the headlines are you know we followed the strategy that's been set and there's no major not that they would be but there's no there's no changes to report to what we were have been reporting um previously investments you know we're investing short term with the uk government debt debt management office when short term cash is available in order to generate some uh some return on on investments and we're borrowing as previously reported in line with our capital commitments that are being funded by borrowing and that's mainly around sea defenses also the hra activity and the waste project um it's a significant borrowing requirement and we've utilized um short term borrowing from other local authorities and also longer term borrowing from the public works loans board using the preferential rates that we've got for um housing activity in in the past quarter um and i think that's my my my update okay thank you just before i opened uh questions that any just before i opened the meeting of the members questions on this i'm suggesting that in in in a way to try to um manage our work program which is the next item on the agenda that we get these reports uh four times a year obviously i'm suggesting that in future the april and november ones come as information reports and the the other two quarters would be more substantive reports does i think i think that's acceptable with officers but is that our members okay with any objections to that you know and as well as that we'll start at the annual treasury management report as well so was the three substantive treasury management reports a year and of course as an information report we've always got the ability to do the the right to comment on as we go along okay so if we can agree that the april and november ones will be information reports future if that's all right um any questions for members on this report Nigel Nigel just just a quick one for Liz that there was mentioned the loss of the technical accountant uh here uh get having regard to your comments about capacity earlier are there any issues that we need to draw to our attention please i know so else there'll be a change in the team they won't be a cha you know who is in the team there won't be a a change in their capacity in their treasury management okay i was gonna ask that myself yes any any of the questions okay so the recommendation is there's two recommendations that members note the treasury management update report for performance in 2023 24 and that the committee confirms it is read understood and taken account of the well-being impact assessment and appendix to as part of its consideration can i have a proposal for that please mark young a seconder all with them all in favor all right thank you okay next item item uh eight the governance and audit committee work program um thank you liz um Gary yes thank you sorry uh um yeah i think you were going to produce a mini report some time i think you said at the last meeting which i i honestly haven't been done yet yeah so that's what you said and you alluded that any terms of reference that the work that now needs doing once we've got the agreed terms of reference to really put the work program into shape taking account of things that were said at the last meeting but i think you will do a bit more over presentations is at the next meeting in june yes so um bob and i bob and i've agreed we're going to sit down and go through if you like the last two or three years of fold work programs and agendas we're going to cross reference it with the terms of reference and your Nigel had made suggestions about categorizing uh different items under different aspects and we'll certainly look at doing that and i think actually that the fold work program report you get in your next meeting won't just be this table there'll be a narrative report about the approach to be taken with perhaps a suggestion of a suggested fold work program going forward having done that sort of exercise okay so it'd be a better coordinated with uh council and cabinet meeting as well as well yeah yeah so i'm trying to make sure that the the workload of the committee is trying to balance that you don't get a glut of annual reports all at the same time and that they sort of spread out a little bit sure i mean obviously as we've said it can't be helped in some cases such as in september when we're going to get a two step that's that's where we're at just link to that i mean i've said um just to members know link to the program um and agendas um i think uh uh it would be good if the chair and the vice chair um could have early sight of the agendas i mean i don't get to see the final version of the agenda until you see it here when the pat gets out of the rest of the members see it um so i think i've i've asked i've been working with officers so it if possible we could get earlier sight of the work program and the agendas and so any changes to the work program and the agendas that come out uh so we're working through that as well um there's a few things taking out what's been said about the work program there's a few reports that have been mentioned previously that aren't in the version we've got here one is on the constitution so that needs adding and also there's one as an information report on the tackle agreement in respect of demolition leisure which is being off and on the program for set set for some months now so i think that needs i don't know when we're going to get that i know it's only in the the tackle agreement was just capacity that can just be done it'll come to the next meeting the the constitution because of sickness in the team some of the work around the constitution hasn't been able to be done so it's a question of factoring that in so that i can do if you like a comprehensive constitution review report the other observation was in june it shows the nomination of the chair the governor's office chair vice chair they're down as reports i know that it has to be done in june it should be on the agenda but i don't think there's any reports involved there rather no that it's it's just the way the forward work programs uh um the format of that template no it's not a written report it's a it's a verbal item but because it's the first meeting of the municipal year that's when the committee needs to um elect chair and vice chair for the coming year yes yeah now and it is just that there are down as reports at all also it shows the corporate risk ready shows the corporate risk register as um down for june which is what i was originally expecting but it's actually on today's agenda anyhow as an information report so we don't need it in june okay basically but we'll get it again in November we'll mention that when we come to that on the information report the other thing i was going to say in july it's got a lot about we've got the annual report and complaints there and did we say that complaint still has to come as a substantive annual report given our statutory role there or i'd be sorry sorry to interrupt your chair unforgivable um the uh the the position with that was i think when you received the report last time you felt it was a bit um statistical rather than if you're like qualitative in terms of the um statutory requirement for this committee and i think what you suggested was that it should come as a substantive item this time so that you you get if you like the first substantive annual complaints process report in the in the way that you wanted to receive it and that you could consider using it as an information item thereafter yeah that's right it's as we were saying before in respect to terms of reference so that i don't think it needs to be too statistical uh i mean i think our role is i think our function is to review and assess the council's ability to handle complaints effectively obviously some of the stats were going into it but we don't need detail ones for every department necessarily it's i think it's assurance i think we said that assurance they're all compatible into the system that they handle it effectively that there's any trends or any exceptions to that we need to be aware of any trends or uh services particularly stand out and our lessons learned and any benchmarking of performance might be useful as well so um i think we said that last time so i think that's taken account of but yeah okay so that's going to be a substantive report on this occasion okay and the other observation was um for september shows that all of the statements of accounts is an information report i don't think it's going to be in i think that's going to be a substantive report and well to state the obvious yes and also um the future training dates um there's um there's an error there it says there the top line in regard to internal audit it should be assurance ratings scoping of audits and the status of internal audits not the status of audits i think we suggested that we have a training session uh possibly at least one training so there must be more than that before the for gac members on uh we were already agreed on on assurance ratings and i think that how orders are scoped would be a useful thing as well but also perhaps there was some there was need for something on the status of internal audit role and function and expectations of it within the authority i think would be useful so that's what was meant to be said not the status into not the status of audits um and also um as far as training is concerned um the gac self-assessment it's getting a bit late to be uh done in it but that does need i suggest if we've done before the annual the annual report that goes on auditing a meeting which is due at the july meeting and it's really picking up where we left off last summer so Gary so i didn't see a hand up there uh so just to remind myself as much as anything chair that um the code of corporate governance we need to bring something to you on that as well um uh i'd be if june or july i'll speak to bob about um when it's possible to get that done but i'd like it to be done at least by july so that it's with the annual governance statement okay thank you thank you any any uh points from members on the workform with them um only an observation chair 25th of september item seven says annual property compliance report does that include fire or is that the renamed it's the renamed one but we we've agreed to get that as an information report now along with yeah yeah no it was just a question of what it was connected most of those is going back to what you're saying before but terms of represent a lot of these sort of annual reports that we get we've agreed in previously that we'll have them as an information report no problem it was just but with the same as what was fire yeah that was sure thank you that's right so are there any other points on the work program members no uh we need to agree uh that the um the work program taking account of the changes made and the commitments to change that are going to be made so kind of kind of a proposal for that please mark young seconder or with them all in favor thank you oh Nigel did i miss your hand before so i thought you saw your hand raise for a minute though sorry a bit bigger one sorry chair it was a confusion between hand raise and thumbs up thank you chair you're meant to put the thumbs up there okay right okay but i can go by the wrong just be careful okay um okay we've got on to the information reports um i'm just going to take them very swiftly we're not going to get any presentations but the um the digital review which covers pages 93 to 114 we received this last time since then there's been an organizational response to it any observations on that any comments Nigel yeah it is hand up this time chair um it's recommendation to and the response from the authority on page 94 of the pack um you recall my comments about the partnership working audit last meeting and are in ability to progress that there is no way that this response reflects the position of the authority in relation to partnerships at the moment and it's it's a comment i would disagree with fundamentally i don't know what that position does for us in terms of a document but i value a comment from office if this document has gone off and there's nothing we can do about it which it is recommendation to partnerships so just we've got our act together about partnerships and there's no further work required in short and i just don't agree with that at all the officers wanted to respond to that until there's three parts of the recommendation aren't they is any particular part you you're entirely in particular of those three sections of it Nigel it was on recommendation to yes i know i just i just think it needs more work i'm surprised it was submitted sorry chair i think the the hella morn Evans was the head of service for performance digital assets is join the meeting in case there were questions in respect to a number of these information reports i would suggest that response relates to the partnership working that's done in respect of um digital issues so it's talking about drunk procurement it's talking about working collaboration around cyber security and other initiatives i don't think it's talking about necessarily the partnership arrangements generally that the council is involved in in delivery of other services that's my take on it but hell and may correct me and so you've got your hand up as well yeah that is exactly what i was going to point out um chair and thanks Gary it was um uh this is specifically about um the council's function in relation to digital um so it's not although the title says partnership arrangement and collaboration you have to see it in the context of the report which is about digital thanks chair Nigel do you want to come back on those responses dad i don't agree with it i think that um any assessment of our partnerships working with the digital partnerships or anything else at the moment shows that we are lacking that we are not effectively managing those partnerships we don't necessarily have a comprehensive list of what those partnerships are and we don't necessarily have the performance monitoring arrangements in place in order to ensure we're getting the best value for our money and that they're being delivered effectively it's my opinion based on last meetings review of partnerships done by internal audit well there's no specific oh sorry Bob yeah sorry we haven't got a complete list of partnerships that's something we are carrying on with at the moment and as i agreed in last meeting by September you'll have that list but individual arrangements are in place for partnerships around the council and obviously with the digital ones i'm assuming Helen has done the uh action with the service and they're satisfied that they have additional and appropriate partnerships in place right i mean this is just the information about this is telling us what's gone so we can record the views that have been expressed there but we're not asked to uh specifically agree any recommendation from this report so okay any any other views i can record that so when we go on to item 11 which is the council's performance and management guide pages 115 to 152 uh two comments for myself uh i welcome it it's welcome and useful i can see the point of it that's explained it in very clear terms on page 132 it's got a specific role for GAC members there um i think when we dealt with the terms of references committee before i cross-referenced it to with it i just want to make sure that the terms of reference of this committee in respect to performance management are consistent with what said here so i think Gary you're you're you're aware of that anyhow the work on the terms of reference really so that's the only comment i want to say on the performance management guide but so any other comments from members Paul for them yeah one one comment chair uh on page 34 of the report pack page 148 it says improving services for our community's project register the project registers record of current projects being delivered by the council i'm still not aware of any agreed council wide definition of what a project is it shouldn't be just in my view it shouldn't be just um a physical exercise did any office really come back on that you all right yeah just to confirm that there is a project register that is regularly seen by the senior leadership team and by corporate executive team as well that's managed by our program's office so that is a complete list of sort of key significant projects that the council is taking forward yeah with respect i was talking about the definition of the projects that are included or may not be included because there's no definition otherwise there might be some of that perhaps should be in the register which isn't because it wasn't defined what what counts as a project again i i think significant projects so of great value reputational importance they would be on the project register lower level projects such as activity that you know requires less less resource less input they would be monitored through service plans i think there's a planned order of project management is it this year or later in the years that's all i miss got projects down we normally pick two or three big projects but i could look at projects as a whole this time well it's just i think it's just the thing you know it is a clear understanding of what needs to be included and what isn't really i'll take but yes i i'll take account of what you'll have said that i i'd like to think most significant projects will be included in the register but it's just that it's showing if you want that there's clear and understood criteria for that yeah could i yes yes i've got my hand there sorry i i don't know if you can see hands or or not in the chamber forgive me um but we do have a definition of what a project is we i i can't um wax lyrical about it but i can send that to committee um the the corporate project register is collated from our corporate project management system called burto it includes projects that are managed through the burto system that can be small that can be medium that can be large projects they can be capital work they can be business improvement revenue projects um it is there's no barrier there's no filter if that makes sense to the the corporate project register um some some of those will um only stay at project briefs uh level which is yolo's point around um scale size cost, gravitational risk etc um some of them will will move to full monitoring via the system um so um it's just to give assurance that there it is that is the process and it and it is a it is a full corporate um project register um just to pick up on that point and we can provide a definition of what a project is um for committee to to uh to review at the leisure, do you also thank you so i didn't see a hand up before i did no no don't worry i didn't want to interrupt chair sorry thank you okay let's something that could be checking out in the internal order anyhow not not to their length of the order we just that there's clear understanding that so along the lines i haven't said yeah yeah when we do the project review this year we'll look at splitting it into say we normally want to other main projects but we'll look at splitting it down and looking at the process thank you okay anything else on item 11 we're going to item 12 the corporate risk register um just to remind members this is really as an information item so we'll later in i think it's june on july i think it's july when we get the annual governance statement i think june when we get the annual internal order report we can make sure that there's a triangulation here uh if there's uh major risks um particularly in the areas of corporate governance is is there some uh consistency with what's in the annual governance statement there so it's really information item to us but for ourselves uh when we're preparing uh to uh review the annual governance statement and indeed the annual internal order report and the internal order strategy for the the following year um other words are we scratching where it is when it comes to risks there um so it's not really that's why it's it's only down as an information report this time we do of course it get it as a substantive report i think in november and that's when um we've uh there's a slight alteration to risk management which is reflected in our new terms of reference and we'll make more of that later at the time in november it's basically to look at the risk management process but also to um to get assurance about the risk management process but also we've added uh to assurance regarding the risks to some of the key the key corporate governance processes as well additional to that we've uh there's been various suggestions as to how the risk management could be done on a more real-time or iterative basis and i know uh i have got a meeting next week i think to uh discuss it as next week or it's soon in the next few weeks yeah so um that's all i want to say on the corporate risk for is there any other points on this questions or points for members nope and lastly but not least we've got item 13 the climate ecological report this seems to be quite a lengthy report am i writing saying that this is this report Gary has gone to other groups as well because it's a formal report which has got um a recommendation it so it's not for us to agree any recommendation it's only in an information report so has it been to other groups as well yes i mean Helen may want to pick this up but it's basically doing a bit of a tour um so uh it's going to every member area group as part of the um the climate ecological change strategy review is going to every member area group there's a cross-party um member group that is also looking at this it will then be going to cabinet of the outcome of the review will be going to cabinet briefing scrutiny cabinet and council uh for uh an updated and reviewed climate and ecological change strategy to be adopted by the council and it is a planned review so when the uh strategy was set it was um set to be reviewed every three years and this is the first of those three yearly reviews thank you Helen so you hand them do you want to add to that yeah so um yeah um add to it and and and um slightly refocus it a little bit so um absolutely what Gary has said is absolutely true the purpose of this report however was a request from the GAC on a previous iteration of your forward work plan around um having a bit of a update status on how the council's getting on with with um with hitting its uh kind of targets in relation to the climate ecological change program um so yeah forgive me there are recommendations in that report and but they are just to note which is kind of what you'd do in an information report anyway is the committee just to note there isn't any action or or decision for committee to make this morning but it was just to sort of say that the contents of this paper um have gone to other places so um it our performance has reported into what in our annual self-assessment which um goes through the rounds May, June, July each year so um that is where this performance would have been reported for 22-23 um originally um GAC uh would have would have would have been part of that um we also have internal mechanisms which is the green adamborship board which is the the governance board under our corporate plan under which this um area of work sits so again in terms of appendix one in particular that um kind of KPI performance summary whereas maybe parts of that enter into our general council uh complete annual self-assessment that's a a snapshot more detailed snapshots just about the climate ecological change program that gets reported to green adamborship board it also gets reported to our cross-party political working group each year and they receive reports um on that last July um and then we report our performance on carbon in particular to Welsh government on the first Monday of every September so I think um I think I think this is interesting and I'm grateful for committee's um interest in it um I wonder perhaps that if committee were continually interested in it that we that we slightly changed the timeline that you that you received a report of this nature if you wanted to receive a report of this nature again to be a bit more timely because as I say this is um this has sort of happened a year ago if that makes sense although really relevant and useful and grateful for the committee's interest um but perhaps uh September if you wanted a and if you wanted a full sort of report of this nature if it's within your terms of reference and you are continually interested um and then you'll have you'll be you'll be looking at more timely data. Do you have to say September do you mean as from this September this year yeah so September you'll you'll have um will be reporting on 23 24 data but because of the nature of this timing we're reporting on 22 23 data which okay you know when it's nature is quite old thanks yeah. Would members be happy to receive this again in September as an information report okay with that yeah not as a substantive report I mean it doesn't mean we don't read it and just a few questions I mean that's I think it'll be good yeah okay um just just the three quick questions for myself uh when I looked at the chart on page back page 288 the supply chain plus target that doesn't look very encouraging really it's got a line going up and a line going down which over the years um this is the council aims to reduce the carbon emissions from a supply chain by 35 percent I just wondered a what's the reason for the discrepancy there and you know the the the trend going one way as opposed to what was um the target and also I just wondered does that illustrate could we be more stringent as a customer or um as I understand it the um procurement is so important the supply chain is so important that if local authorities and other public sector bodies across the nation across Wales and the UK as a whole got their act together we could significantly reduce carbon carbon emissions it's not just what damage you can do is what damage you can do in in conjunction with the other 21 local authorities in Wales and the other public sector body in Wales but we tend to underestimate the impact that we can have I just wondered if you've got any comments on that Helen yeah I know really really great insights and thoughts there chair so yeah absolutely um supply chain um is a massive um contribution to missions for for from any organization but particularly public sector and you see that in the net um zero Wales public sector report um the latest literally just um published at the beginning of April um and it and it pin points the same narrative that you've just um that you've just given us chair essentially the first point of action in relation to this target is getting better quality accurate data so at the minute the how carbon is calculated from our supply chain is using a um proxy measure per pound spent so that means that if you've spent more money your carbon will increase that's okay if we're all spending stuff that's really bad for the environment but if we're spending that on for example um uh ground source heating which will reduce the carbon of um buildings um that probably will come under a category of mechanical and electrical and which will have a carbon proxy value it won't indicate whether that's a dirty gas boiler or ground source heat pump within that proxy measure so um how you improve the data quality is actually asking from each of our our contracts what their carbon emissions are um for delivering that service or works for on our behalf um that is a early start across the public sector damage accounts are included and we've started doing it already within our print and um design framework and we're looking to um roll that out um with our northwells um construction framework and other frameworks as well but it's slow going so I think that would then result in um quite a big drop but that won't be real drop that will be because data's improved and then absolutely it's what you're talking about chair around those actual improvement actions joint procurement being more stringent on um criteria that we're putting in our tender packs evaluating tenders on carbon performance as well as cost and quality um we've got a a dedicated member of staff um for the next two years working across denisher and flincher as we've got a joint procurement service called Roberta bailey um and she her specific role is um to support the organization in decarbing our supply chain um so it's not it's not a lot of capacity but at least it's some capacity to support the organization in the adventure thanks chair thank you so that the thing you're talking about there and also I mean the other question that spring to mind whether the sufficient management buy-in in services and also to the extent that the strategy might be put at risk because of any savings proposals and so on presumably all that will be managed through um the risk management process thinking record risk 45 is uh really about this account the risk account is not responding swiftly or sufficiently enough to make our contribution to tackle climate change etc so the things I've just talked about but we're just talking about supply chain there management buy-in uh cost those risks are being managed are they through the the spider process yeah so you've got so it's the rep rep rep rep reputational impact has made it up to corporate risk register and we've also it's being managed as a program in the organization so you've got a program risk register which will go into a bit more detail and then you also got risk registers for each of the work streams major projects within the program which will also have a risk register which includes supply chain so um like supply chain work streams so that's how it's managed in risk um and there's specific actions within the strategy within people's service plans in relation to improving the quality of data of supply chain and then some of those improvement actions within supply chain so that's how it's that's how it's structured that's how it's sort of governed that's how um status is uh updates uh a source etc in terms of management buy-in um it's it's there i think i think a really good evidence of this from the political side of the business is recently a paper went to democratic services group around what training should be made mandatory and what shouldn't and that committee recommended that um introduction to climate change was man made mandatory for elected members i think that is a good a good litmus test on the political side of the business and i think on the operational side of the business um a bit of evidence and relation to buy-in is in your medium time financial plan papers that you've looked at today committee you will see that under corporate priorities there is money listed in there for 2526 ongoing that is in relation to this priority if that stays we need to go through the budget process but i think that is another indication around um the buy-in operationally and politically um to this agenda um and in terms of saving proposals yes it is impacting um as part of the saving proposals for 2425 we reduced that pressure in the medium term financial plan in corporate priorities by um funding works in relation to the program in a creative and different way but that also means a little more limited way um and and that potentially may need to happen again for 2526 but chair in terms of how that's managed and worked through that's through the budget um process um and the challenge process from from other political and operational side of the business and which Liz took you through this morning good thank you i think what might be useful if we get in future reports is bearing man there's an awful lot involved in this it takes the effort of the whole council and there's an awful lot goes into this report um but i think what would be useful to help to grab our attention would be anything where those key mitigating controls in the risk register if they are what we're not looking for if they are um worsening in any way um for to use uh if that was they could be specifically brought to our attention because they could be major governance issues for the council because it means that you know there could be um many aspects of the of the governance framework which are not functioning as they should be if we're going to achieve what we need to achieve so it'd be useful perhaps to maybe have that as a separate section yeah in that information report rather than perhaps a focus on performance which obviously is going to be reported performance scrutiny and um annual yeah having having a focus on the risk aspect of it i think that is um value added chair it's just i think we need to sum it up of performance but we need to think you know be aware of the things that are stopping performers and what's being done about it i don't want to take another risk assessment done but it's just as it's the mitigating controls in which any of those which aren't working or which are not being complied with or which are worsting for every for whatever reason Mark yeah thank you chair yeah uh yeah thanks for this really important and challenging when one is so tight so it's easy to uh lose the ambition and be be pushed that way so i think when it comes to us it'd be really good to get some examples from services LDP would be a crucial one uh and not to be scared to show us ones which are going well which is Brooklyn how we've helped that and just the two main ones obviously the all this is about the ambition for net carbon zero and everywhere you talk that's that's a challenge and you you know you've got a priority for improvement so it'd be good to see what that looks like at some point we're gonna have to have that chat on whether we're going to hit it or not but you know we should always be ambitious but that's what that's what i'd be interested in so do miss it we're missing it not because we're not doing our best uh some examples and i think the one on procurement it's about that supportive businesses as well mm-hmm really important because we're the big organization some of these companies are small and i think we can share some of our knowledge and encourage better behavior so i'd like a summary of that when it comes to us so we can get behind it and support when needed because it's you know it's a challenge with the budget the way it is but it's really important so uh just that was thought please okay any other questions or points on this report nope okay thank you very much officers thank you Ellen thank you are you all right thank you for Liz and Gary as well thank contributions uh next meeting that concludes our business today our next meeting is the 12th of June correct me i've got the date back there 12th of June yeah
3. So, Jack and Viar, thank you.
4. Safe journey home.