Transcript

Thank you very much indeed. I'd like to welcome everybody to the first place scrutiny meeting of the new municipal year. Going through the agenda, item one, do we have any substitutes nominated or apologies? Thank you very much. Item two, I need to remind members of the need to declare and disclose pecuniary interests or any other interests they may have in relation to items on the agenda. Thank you. Item three, admission of the public. It's not recommended that the public be excluded from this meeting. The consideration of any of the items on the agenda. Item four, the minutes of the last two meetings to be agreed as a correct record. We have two sets of minutes to agree. March the 7th, which was a planned meeting and March the 25th, a call in. I'd like to propose the minutes of March the 7th as a correct record. Can I ask for anybody who was present at that meeting to second? Thank you, Councillor Ahmed. Thank you. The minutes of the meeting on the 20th, can we take a vote on those minutes being approved? Thank you. The minutes of the meeting on the 25th of March were for a call in. Again, I'd like to propose that we accept those minutes as a correct record and ask if anybody who was present at that meeting who is prepared to second that. Thank you, Councillor Brandell. So can we take a vote on accepting the minutes as a correct record? Thank you very much. Deputations, item five, none have been received. Now, because this is the first meeting of the municipal year and it's a mixture of old and new members of the board, I wonder if I could ask people who are sitting around the table to introduce themselves so we all know who we are. So if I start, we'll go around this way, including you. I'm Councillor Sue Holdsworth, Greetington-Steinland ward Councillor and currently chair of Place Scrutiny Board and it's my first meeting. My name is Diane Chapman and I'm one of the team that clerks all of the Scrutiny Board committees and panels. Councillor Peter Hunt I'm representing Elland Ward and I'm on Place Scrutiny and Licensing and Regulatory Committee. Dan Wood, Councillor Dan Wood. North Ormond Shelf, this is my second year of being on Scrutiny and my second year of being a Councillor. Councillor Shane Taylor dealing with the Mixonon Ward, first time on the council, first time on the spot. Councillor Gallagher for the Elland Ward, I'm substituting for Councillor Kimber. Councillor Ahmed for the Calder Ward. Councillor Steph Clark dealing with the Mixonon Ward. Helen Brundell, Topperton Ward, second year on Place and now Deputy Chair this year. And I'm Libby Riley and I'm an Assistant Scrutiny Officer. Thank you. Thank you very much everybody. Before we move on to item 6, I'd just like to thank Reagan Dickinson who was chair during last year for all the hard work that he put in and I hope that I can do as good a job but we'll see. And secondly item 6, this is a detailed review into housing within Caulderdale. I want to express very grateful thanks to Councillor Clark, I'm glad she's been able to join us in time for instigating this review and to Councillor Brundell for completing the review so thoroughly. I'm going to ask Councillor Brundell to present the findings of the review group to the board. Thank you very much and I'll start by echoing the thanks to all involved, the housing team and especially Heidi within that and those in the housing team that created the videos which were part of that as well which really added a lot to those sessions. Partners from outside the council who came and contributed which was really valuable and other teams in the council such as Environmental Health who also participated. Libby, Ben and Mike who this would not have happened without and of course all the members who got really involved in those sessions and particularly Councillor Clark who initiated this and set the parameters for what we were doing. The housing review was done in the context of a national housing crisis which was felt particularly deeply here in Caulderdale and was all too obvious through the emails which come into members' inboxes. Poor housing conditions, facing threats of eviction, homelessness that we're all really familiar with and a huge takeaway from the review was that the housing crisis we all felt was happening was validated by the data and the reports that we saw. Another key takeaway was how incredible our housing team are. They work so, so hard and this was key to recognise when we were formulating the recommendations as we know we have a great team who are working in a national housing crisis in often really difficult situations with vulnerable people and we simply can't ask much more of them and the recommendations reflect that. Our recommendations reflect that we are in a difficult situation and they centre around highlighting the work already being done and making sure that those particularly renting as pointed out can seek the advice and the guidance that they need. The recommendations also highlight continuing the work we're doing, continuing fighting for funding, for example, working closely with partners and developers and the continued support and guidance and they also focus on how we can build on this housing review within scrutiny in the future, so getting a regular report back around homelessness figures, for example, so we can continue to scrutinise and do what we can. I won't go through the recommendations in full because I hope you've all had a chance to see that. I will just mention that there's been a slight change in the date. That's fine. For now, hopefully you've all seen the recommendations and again, as I say, we were looking wider than the team here because we know they can't do much more, so our asks reflect that. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Brundell. I presume members managed to read at least some of the report, if not all of it. Are there any questions for Councillor Brundell? On recommendation three about raising, trying to get banks to factor in rent payments, taking that into account for people who want to take out a mortgage, I thought that was a really interesting idea. How realistic is it that that would be taken into account? Have we got an idea on what that feedback is going to be? So, through the Chair, I don't know if I always want to come in at points, there is skipped in building society which already do that, which suggests it's possible and that's something we can always raise a precedent when writing, I think, that they've managed, I'm not sure how they have and why others haven't followed suit, but there is at least that one that we could find that does already do that. So, hopefully it is possible. Mine was just around recommendation seven. I kind of, I understand some of the limitations that are laid out there, but is that the best we can do? Because it feels like a bit soft. It's like we're going to encourage, we're going to facilitate, it feels like we could be harder on that, it feels like we could actually put some lines in the sand and be lead thought leaders on it rather than just accept what developers want to do. I know we've had this conversation before about biodiversity net gain, but we're doing the Billy Basic national requirements and nothing better. It feels like we could do better? Through the Chair and again, I don't know if Heidi wants to add to this. It's hard because it is that balance, isn't it, between needing housing and then, and it is quite ... But pandering to developers ... Developers that came to the developer for the bulk works, is that what it's now called? Yes. Need to get used to the new name and not just that side up there. Was sort of explaining the process they'd been through with it and just how challenging it was actually to incorporate that financially and also within other constraints. Heidi wants to add to that. If I may, Chair? Yes, please. Could I ask you to introduce yourself? I will, please, Heidi. Yes, of course. So, good evening, Councillors. I'm Heidi Waters. I'm the strategic lead for housing and climate change, so it's absolutely part of my role to ... Anyone that knows me knows I don't pander to anyone, particularly developers, but it's about ... We try and develop a relationship so that it isn't a dictatorial or authoritarian discussion we have where we're saying, This must happen. It's about persuasion and working with them and understanding the challenges that they face because in Calderdale, we have some really difficult, challenging sites. We are, to an extent, limited by what is in our local plan and what our planning requirements are around this agenda, but because climate sits under me, it's absolutely something that is part of every discussion that we would have as a developer. We are as ambitious as we can be, but as Councillor Brundell explained, with something like the Vault Works, it's a real challenge between getting the homes built and being as sustainable as we possibly can be, and I think it's a really good example of where we work really positively with that developer, where they would go away and have a look and say, Let's see what we can change and we'll come back. It was a real process that we went through to get to where we are with it, so it's difficult to require things, but one of the things we're doing, for example ... Is that fair? No, it's okay. Why is it difficult to require? Because of the cost, often the cost. It often just comes down to ... Right, their profit margin's down and they become less appealing, but this site becomes less appealing to it. Yeah, with the Vault Works, with a lot of our partners that we work with, they're not all private developers. In this instance, they are, but they really took a hit with their profit to build in some of the things that we wanted on that site, but we work with a lot of registered providers who are not there for the money, and it's really difficult for them as well to make some of our sites work, and so we're doing a piece of work. I'm trying to look at how we can deliver more sustainable homes and using that as a pilot and as an exemplar scheme that we can perhaps show you can make it happen, but ... What's exemplary about it then? What have we achieved? What's exemplary about the Vault Works? It's things like the sustainable travel element of it, so they don't have parking spaces as such. They've taken those out. They will provide access to a car scheme, because they recognize that even though you're in the town center, sometimes there will be times when you need access to a car, so they will have those sorts of things on site, and some of the design of it in terms of making it sustainable, going beyond what the building regulations say. It's those sorts of things that we've had to work with them, but they wanted to be even more ambitious. The plan that they came to us with originally, which was pre-pandemic, was much more ambitious, but they just ... Because of the costs going up in the building trade, and so it was very difficult, and they've taken a hit, and we've seen that in their costings as much as we've had to accept some of the changes around sustainability. Do we verify that that's real at the end of it, and it's allowed? These are for sale, so these are built for rent, and they are an investor who will stay and be on site and will manage that scheme. They're not there to then sell to investor landlords. They will be managing those properties. Is that something that we're doing across the board, or is this just a really good example? They're the first built to rent scheme that we've done in Calderdale, but we have already met with them to talk about other opportunities that there might be, because we see it as a really great model. They're coming to us with ideas around the sustainability side of things. With other developers, I have to say it's much harder. It is more of a battle, and we really have to push hard sometimes to get things ... What can we pull up on that on the kind of plan and permission element of it? You're not going to be allowed to build this unless you follow the following... The problem is we're restricted by what the local plan and its requirements say. A developer will look at the local plan and the building regulations and so on, and they will meet those requirements. Often, we want them to push beyond that, and that's where the negotiation comes in. There's no lever we've got to make them do that. It's very limited in terms of what we can make them do, because we need the homes as well. If it becomes too difficult, or if the cost of the profit margin is so low, it's not worth the time, they'll walk away from that site, and we don't get the homes built. As you will see from the report, we need homes being built. It's trying to get that balance between the two agendas. At what cost? Absolutely. But for me, with my dual hat on, what I don't want to see are homes being built that we're going to have to retrofit in the next decade. To me, that's pointless. It's about having those conversations with developers. We are starting to see a number of developers we work with starting to recognize the change, and starting to see that actually, if they make homes more sustainable, it helps their profit margins, because if they are for sale, and you can say to someone, this home has been developed so that the running costs are going to be lower, suddenly that's a real seller for a family who are struggling, perhaps with heating homes and so on. I think there is starting to be a bit of a change around this agenda, but we're certainly not there yet. Thank you. Thank you very much. Can I just remind you, you know, you have one microphone, because it locks your camera. At the moment it's locked on the chair, so it's not seen. Okay. There's a third job conversation, and we call it the streaming board scene. Thank you. Can I now invite Councillor Gallagher, who has a question, I think. Thank you, Chair. Hello, Heidi. Nice to see you. When you're talking about restrictions in terms of planning, in what criteria yourselves can ask for from a developer for the boat plan, would you see it in the future? Would legislation free up some of the power that the developer has in terms of, you know, this is what we're doing? Or would it free up more for yourselves to be able to say, this is what we want for this borough, if legislation was to change in terms of planning? If legislation changes, absolutely. We can then enforce those changes. So regulations changed recently, and developers are now working towards those new changes. So, yes, legislative changes would really make a difference. We work closely with planning colleagues so that we can make sure that we're adhering to the policies that obviously they have to implement as part of their planning decisions. But as I explained, it's very much we try and make it a discussion to try and get the best we can for a scheme. But each scheme is entirely different and will have its own challenges. You know, in Calderdale we've got topography challenges and things like that. So we take each scheme separately, but absolutely those changes would help. Thank you. Are we any other questions, please? Yes, thank you. In relation to recommendation four about response to homelessness, I think Heidi knows a question I'm about to ask now. Those of you who can remember the Supporting People program, which dealt with housing-related support, not just to prevent homelessness, but prevent the risk of homelessness as well. So the report talks about people fleeing domestic violence, families existing homeless. But as Heidi can remember, we also had older people for housing-related support, people with learning disabilities, people with mental health issues who are at risk of losing a tenancy because they don't have the independence to deal with that. Since I've been away from housing for a while now, I'm just wondering how we sit as an authority with giving that housing-related support. Thank you. So housing-related support actually sits with colleagues in adults' health and wellbeing, but we work very closely with them in commissioning that support. I have to say that since we used to have a ring fence around that funding and that was removed, and since then, as you all be aware, the pressures that local authorities have faced around finances have meant that funding for supported housing has significantly reduced. We do still have an older person's contract. We do have contracts for adults and for young people, so 16 to 25, and then those who are aged 25 and over. But those are quite limited, and we don't have some of the specialist or preventative services that we used to have for client groups such as the mental health services and so on. So it has reduced significantly, and that has a big impact on how we are able to support people to maintain and prevent them from becoming homeless or to help them when they're setting up a new tenancy. Having support can really make a difference. There are some changes, legislative changes, that are going to be introduced hopefully over the coming years, and that should at least help to raise some of the standards within some of the supported housing that we have, but certainly it's reduced significantly and I think has led to the impact on homelessness. Do we have anybody else who would like to speak at this point? Councillor Clark. Thank you, Chair. I'm really quite concerned about how we're going to give any incentive to developers within Halifax, well within Calderdale. There's a lack of suitable land, and then of course there's not much infrastructure around. Then there's the levy for infrastructure. Housing in Calderdale is historically quite a lot lower than most places, and these extra costs, as you were talking about earlier, and the infrastructure levy, which I don't know if that's coming in. I know it was talked about. So I'm very concerned that we will get very many developers that can deliver the type of housing that we need, which is not expensive, but which is extremely good. It's a real challenge, but I think the introduction of the local plan has made a real difference. So we are seeing more planning applications going through. We are seeing more developers coming into Calderdale. One of the things me and the team have been doing over the last couple of years is being really proactive in talking to developers and trying to sell why they should come to Calderdale and what the benefits are, because actually it's a beautiful place. We've got some really good connections transport-wise with the train network and motorways and so on. I'm concerned about such as people from London who are really heading to the UK. Which we know we are seeing, but we are starting to be able to build more homes. We are seeing an increase in the number of homes that are being built. The challenge is making sure that we really understand what homes are needed in what place and making sure that they are the right size and they are meeting the needs for the people of Calderdale. That's something that we are working very closely with planning on as well. At the moment we are doing a refresh of something called the strategic housing market assessment to really understand what the market needs in Calderdale and making sure that our developers are responding to those needs. Does anybody else? Yes, Councillor Hunt. Thank you, yes. I would just add my concern is with some of the new developments that are scheduled for places like Great Britain, for example. We use that as an example. As well as the one in Exley. The tendency in my vision is that there will be towards the executive home market rather than the affordable market. I think that's a real concern. For a number of reasons, but not least because it doesn't really meet what we are trying to do here. So I do hope that there can be a very strong emphasis on that. I am aware about the whole profit margin thing because I think there is probably more money in it to go for two or three cars, six hundred grand house. But that's not really the point. If 85%, 90%, 95% is going to be that, then I don't think that's a good thing. So I would sort of query whether there is a lot of pressure going into making sure there is more affordable housing and whether there is any mileage in understanding from our point of view, from the Council's point of view, what the bottom line that they are working with, because they are going to want to push low on their costs. We are going to want to push high on expectations. If we can understand where a developer would typically sit with regards to how much money they want to make, how much money they would be interested in, and pitching what we want to pitch at that level, if you see what I mean. Because when they come to you, a developer comes to you, for example, they are going to come with a certain attitude, aren't they? We can only do so much. I am sure there is wiggle room there. I am sure there is a negotiating room there. So there is that point and there is the point about social housing. Affordable housing, should I say. Thank you. And interestingly enough, Councillor, I had that very same discussion with our Head of Planning this afternoon where we had a meeting around housing delivery. I think, so the issue particularly around executive homes was something I was talking about. When we look at the current figures, performance figures around housing development, you are spot on. It is those executive homes that are being built and I was talking about first time buyers, small households, et cetera. So absolutely what you are saying echoes with me. I think I have to be careful about the role that the housing service has compared to the role of planning service. So with the Bolt works, we were in direct negotiation because it was a piece of council land, it was a housing led development that we had control over. For a developer who has bought a piece of private land and is submitting a planning application, a lot of those discussions that you are talking about would be held with planning colleagues. The role of my service would be around affordable housing. And again, you are spot on. When a developer comes to us, the cost is significant, we can't possibly deliver affordable housing as part of this scheme. If you want the scheme, you are going to have to give that up. And what our colleagues in planning do is they will have that independently assessed and they will go through all of the figures, all of the costings, and if it is felt that actually they can deliver affordable housing, that will be a requirement on that planning application. And again, we work very closely with our colleagues in planning to make sure we get the homes that we feel we need around that affordable housing delivery. And we are currently in the process, in fact it is going to cabinet in July, we are developing an affordable supplemental planning document that will give some more detail around how we get that affordable housing delivered. So absolutely hear what you are saying, but I have to be careful about not stepping on planning colleagues' tours. Thank you. Thank you. Councillor Dickinson. Thank you, Chair, and apologies for lateness. The motorway had broken down again, and Brickhouse was gridlocked, which makes me immediately question your comment about the viability of the motorway, because it was readily defined as being not fit for purpose during the course of the local planning examination process. Aside from that, I was picking up on what Councillor Hunt was saying with regard to the affordable housing allocations. My understanding was that it was meant to be 25 per cent, ideally. I don't know if that is just a figure that has been plucked from thin air from somewhere else, or if that is actually the case. As a bit of background in terms of the thrust of what I am trying to get to, I did actually write to the Secretary of State a couple of years ago with regard to the effectiveness of building standards in terms of providing energy efficiency and heading towards carbon neutrality, and the delicately phrased reply inferred that standards would need to change for that to happen, and there were no plans for that to happen at this state. Now, having taken up with the discussion with Councillor Patience over the recent months and years with regard to that, he readily and correctly admits that, as a Council, we are hamstrung by the limitations of national legislative frameworks and standards in terms of our aspirations. I did say in Council a long time ago that the days of cheap options for energy efficiency were coming to an end, if they hadn't already. When it comes to things like affordable housing, we have got two choices, either to implement energy efficiencies and to raise the price or compromise on those energy efficiencies, working to the minimum standard of building regulations, and therefore folks who can afford, hopefully, affordable housing are therefore not going to be getting the optimum energy efficiency savings that they could be. So ally to that trade is the question, really, is how we define affordable housing within the context of average wages in Coldale and average house prices for new builds, because my house, a modest two-bedroom back-to-back in one of the slightest fashionable areas of Brick House, probably might fetch £110,000. Now, that is not a bad old place as a starter for somebody, as opposed to something a lot more expensive, albeit with the finance options available to make that supposedly more affordable for folk. But that said, you would have to settle for being quite cold most of the time, because mine is more facing. But nonetheless, the point remains the same. That is an affordable house for somebody on the face of it, set against the average Coldale wage. I am not so sure about the average price of an affordable home on a new build estate against the average wage in Coldale. I was wondering if you had any thoughts and comments with regard to that. Quite a lot to unpack, therefore, which I apologise, Heidi. But there we go. Have a stab at that lot. I will do my best. Okay, I will start off with the affordable housing requirements and the proportion of affordable housing on site. We have zones in Coldale, so we have four zones, A, B, C, D, and they cover different housing markets. So in zone A, which would cover Hebden Bridge, Charlestown, Ripponden, Rishworth, Barkersland, that is the requirement there would be on a developer to deliver on a scheme of over 10 units, they would have to deliver 35% affordable housing. Contrasted with zone D, which is Elland, Greetland, Holywell, Green, Stanland, Wheatley, Ovenden, Mixon, Boothtown, West Halifax, on a scheme or a development of 15 plus homes, there would be a requirement of 20% affordable housing. So it very much varies on where the development is to what the requirements are around affordable housing. And it is quite timely that you have asked me this, because tomorrow I am going to a meeting where I am covering some of this, which is why I have pulled up my presentation, because I have got some of the information to hand. So if we move to the affordability side of things, historically, house prices in Coldale have been lower than both the Yorkshire and Humber side region and nationally, and that is still the case. But I think the gap is starting to close a little, particularly with the Yorkshire and Humber region. And it does depend on what type of property it is. So, for example, in terms of apartments, our prices in Coldale are virtually the same as Yorkshire and Humber costs. So we are able to see that the gap is starting to close. And you are quite right, it does depend on the wage levels that people have, and also the property type. So, you know, I was exactly like you, my first home was a back-to-back terrace house that was far more affordable than a new property on a new housing development. But what is deemed to be affordable is different according to those zones that I talked about. So zone A, the affordability price would be £280,000 for a property. That would be deemed the average price for affordable housing in that zone. But in zone D, it comes down to £167,000, just over. So very much varies on different parts of the borough, the levels that were being charged, that you would class as affordable, and also it does depend on the property types as well. Thank you. Thank you. Councillor, did you want to speak? I think I've got one. It's one for Heidi. I'm not going to go into the history of housing since the Town and Country Planning Act, but what I would like to ask is, what's the future looking like, short term net, such as Airbnbs across Alderdil? Is that something we're going to see sprawling out of, let's say, some of our slightly more attractive wards, just in terms of tourism potential, and might we be seeing that in Halifax Central and elsewhere? So I don't think it was something we covered in detail in the scrutiny review itself. We do know that, as you say, we're starting to see the numbers of Airbnbs go up in places like Hebden Bridge. We are not seeing that elsewhere, and we have done a bit of research to look at the properties that have been registered for that short term net. We're not seeing it elsewhere. I'm not saying that there aren't some of those properties in different parts of the borough, but it's not to the levels that we're seeing in Hebden Bridge. But I think it is something that all housing teams are looking at across the country, because we have seen an increase in that type of property. And interestingly enough, only this week, I've had a private landlord come to me saying he can offer me properties on a nightly basis. And I said, why would I be interested in a nightly basis? I want properties to be able to rehouse people in two on a permanent basis. But I think they're doing it because they see the Airbnb market and think, well, that short term light is going to give me more money than a longer term light. So we need to be careful about making sure we manage where we can the housing market in the borough. So just a follow up question to that one. Is it accurate to say that, you know, realistically in terms of the Airbnbs, we do have in Colgate all that. For the local authority, they're more or less invisible just because we don't really have a register of them. So, you know, for all we know, you know, we might not really know how many they are. Is that correct? We have been able to get some information, but I think it would be accurate to say it's very difficult to get an accurate picture. On top of that, let's say if, you know, national legislation was to change, I don't know what that would look like necessarily because, you know, sort of housing legislation is one of these where, you know, it all sort of mishmashes together. You know, would it be useful, you know, it's a big hypothetical really. It's become a legal requirement for, you know, let's say sort of private landlords with Airbnbs to actually have to register with the local authority and sort of follow the sort of rules and regs that more commercial landlords would have to follow. I would like all private landlords to have to register with the local authority at the moment. It is very difficult to know where our private housing stock is, our private rented stock, whether that's the short term or the longer term. There's no requirement. If you decided tomorrow to let your house out for whatever reason, you don't have to tell the local authority that you're doing that. And I wouldn't know that there's a private landlord that I could work with and possibly find accommodation for one of my homeless clients. So I think more generally, it would be useful to be able to have a register of where our private housing stock is. Thank you, Councillor Ahmed. Yes, Councillor Dickinson. Yeah, following up on the back of that, I was in Kirklees this afternoon at a very mouldy, spectacularly mouldy, private rented house. And so this is a bit more of a low level question, really. But I also have in my, yesterday, I think frightened probably would be the right word for this tenant who has a seven year old daughter and is worried about raising issues with regard to damp and mould in his house in Culverdale, in fact in Ratstrick Ward for fear of eviction. And OK, we've got the no fault of it. The new legislation that has come in. There was a point that we made during the recommendations about reallocating budgets towards enforcement and everything else. And I did write to Environmental Health who seemed to be on the case. And in terms of community safety, I think the team there was starting that particular ball rolling. Hopefully we can get a really good result there. How would you describe the current state of that sort of aspect of enforcement? Now, I absolutely take on board what you're saying about having a register of private landlords. And after having that particular case study on my books at the moment and what I personally witnessed this afternoon, my goodness me, yes, we could really use something like that because I would so hate for us to have a watch deal with the, you'll forgive me for not remembering the little boy's name. Thank you. Yes. And, you know, it's for that to happen on our watch in any form of whether it's our housing association stock or private landlord. So it's more, yes, the list would be wonderful how we go about doing that. But it's more about in terms of the state of enforcement. Would you say that we could use extra still or would you say that it's actually a relatively steady ship at the moment? Might I just come in on that, Councillor Dickinson? I had a very similar case in my ward. A single father with two boys and the house was absolutely, well, the flat was absolutely awful. It was black mold. Yep, everywhere. But environmental health came in and they were really good. And they got a hold of the landlord and the letting agent and they made it extremely clear what they had to do and within a particular time frame. The landlord did most of the work. There are still two or three outstanding issues. And the tenant was also scared that he might either have his rent hiked up or be asked to leave. But apparently once you've got environmental health involved and the council are aware of this, it's very difficult for a landlord to evict a tenant. So I reassure your constituent that environmental health will come in and they're pretty firm. And I was there yesterday when they came for a follow-up visit and they inspected the works. There were two or three niggling things that were still outstanding. And there was also an issue with the electricity managers, the landlord taking a cut, if you like, from the prepaid meter. But because neither the landlord nor the letting agent attended that meeting, I couldn't follow that one up. But I think they are pretty hot. So that might just encourage your tenant. Thank you, thank you, Jo. In terms of the response of environmental health, so far I've been very encouraged. But in terms of how you feel that the department is able to cope with the workload and securing outcomes was what I'm looking for, really. Thank you. Good evening, I'm Kate McNicholas, I'm Assistant Director for Economy, Housing and Investment. Really helpful discussion today. Enforcement sits within public services and I guess that we touched on damp and mould and the significant impact that it has on households and on people's lives in Calderdale, as elsewhere, in the scrutiny that you did over the two days. It's not there in depth, as you all know, within your own report. Maybe an option, if this is something that the place would like to consider in more detail, is picking up that discussion with public services and maybe doing a specific item on housing standards. I'm really mindful that some of the questions today, some of them touch on the content of the report, which itself was broad and wide ranging, just like Heide's area. But there will be things that aren't included that we obviously can't capture all of in the follow-up to the report itself. So it might be that that's something that you think about for a future agenda item. Thank you very much, that's a very good suggestion. If I may, this kind of follows on from the private rented sector deep dive that we looked at in the last year or two, which I had the privilege of chairing at the time. I felt hamstrung by not knowing who our private landlords are and where they are and how many they have and most importantly, where their properties are. It's that sense of being hamstrung, which I left that with you feeling somewhat frustrated off the back of it. I'd be interested in suggestions where you might think we could actually go forward in terms of trying to secure that knowledge, because it strikes me that the council tax bill system, I don't know how effective and forensic it can be, or can it be, I don't know. It feels like you're very much aware of the fact that you're hamstrung as well, that it's frustrating. Just to respond to that, I was at a meeting this week with our corporate leadership team with colleagues from environmental health and building control and we have a group that work on housing standards and I have to say that the investment into environmental health has made a real difference to them. I can't comment any further than that because I think it will be stepping on my colleagues' toes. What I can say is that if you do have any residents who are concerned about their tenants' rights and concerned about damper mode but the impact that that might have on their tenancy, they can always come to our housing options service and we can give them advice without, confidentially they don't have to make any decisions there and then, but we can provide them with advice. We also have a private landlord liaison officer who works with private landlords and we try and build the relationships with landlords because a lot of landlords, they do only have one or two properties that perhaps they may have inherited and they don't always know what they can do and what perhaps grants and things like that are available to improve property. So it's about working with both landlord and tenant to find the right solution. Thank you very much Claire. Councillor Brandel? Yeah, on the topic of a landlord registry, it was something we considered as a recommendation but essentially there's barriers and difficulties there and I know it's something Councillor Paton has been keen on for years. I think he first spoke to me about it. It's just, yeah, there is difficulties there and I think a broader point on a lot of these questions is within national legislation, obviously we're in quite uncertain political times as we have been sort of throughout this review, that there is some where there's some constraints there and there's just quite a lot of unknowns within what we could do in situations that might change over the coming months and all of that. So yeah, that is sort of that constraint in place sometimes and yeah, I agree a landlord registry would be fantastic as someone who private rents. It's just, yeah, difficulties in place. Thank you Councillor Brandel. Have we anybody else who would like to make some comments, questions? I have an amendment to item six. Shall I briefly outline it? Regan, you referred to the renters reform bill 2023. That legislation never managed to get passed. So what I've asked you to do is pull together a draft of saying what we could do to try and push that forward. So Diane correct me if I'm speaking out of time, but if Councillor Holdsworth wants to make an amendment to the recommendations heard of voting on them, is that okay to do at this point of the meeting? Yeah. So Councillor Holdsworth has asked me to add in the following to the report. We recommend that place scrutiny board staff write to both new MPs serving following the 4th of July, serving residents within Calderdale, urging them to prioritise the passing of updated legislation on reform within the rental sector. It would be an additional recommendation. Would we have to, we'd need to vote on that, do you? Yes, please. After the election. Thank you, Councillor Gallagher. Councillor Rondell. Yeah, I was just going to add when we discussed this earlier, it was sort of deliberately kept quite neutral in terms of the language in that recommendation, because I know I think all parties are talking about renters reforms and the way that word is slightly different. So there is an intention there that it doesn't, you know, the word doesn't align with one party's manifesto, et cetera. Someone help me out here. Was that particular bill, did it receive cross party support? Do we know? Or was it split along party lines? Yes. Sorry, never got to go before the house to be passed. So when the Prime Minister called a general election, it was one of the bills that was to go forward that fell. Right. But in terms of the lead up to that, I mean, this is something that I missed out on, obviously, which is why I'm asking. Was it something that both sides of the house were generally in favour of, or was there a lot of dispute about what was going on? I would suspect that the Labour Benches were probably sort of saying, you're not going far enough, but we agree with the general thrust of things, or rather than actually sort of saying, no, this is disgusting. It shouldn't be allowed. Do you guys know? I've got an idea. I'm asking the room really. I think there was some concern from Conservative members who were themselves landlords, that it might put them in a difficult position. But Libby, I think, has got a better answer than I have for that. I think it might have been Councillor Brundell that wanted to come in. I've just sort of built on Councillor Gallagher's point about pre-election period just need to be really aware in what we're saying when referring to political parties. Yeah, I think so when we're discussing the word into recommendation, we deliberately didn't say renters reform bill, because that was a specific thing, instead just saying renters reform more generally to allow for whatever that may look like for whoever is in power, rather than that specific bill, because we don't know what might happen. Now you mention it, and through you, Chair, yes, I do know there's quite a lot of noise from the Conservative side about the impact of landlords. At the end of the day, we're asking to write a letter, in essence, to the two MPs who will be serving in Calderdale, as overall, whether they then decide to take that forward or not. Another question again, isn't it? So that was the recommendation I wanted to add to Agenda Item 6. If anybody has no further comments, I think we now ask the Board whether they're prepared to – oh, I'm sorry, Councillor Brundell. The other slight amendment we discussed was around Recommendation 6, let me just get the wrong wording, just in terms of the date within that recommendation, mentioned November 2024 there, where we're currently in June 2024, so it seems, yeah, that's only a few months away. An amendment to change up to March 2025, we're aware from officers involved in that department that there's been difficulties nationally, especially across West Yorkshire, with recruitment in that, partly financially, partly other reasons, so just giving a little bit more time, because like I said, I think November 2024 seems quite close now. So yeah, an amendment to remove November 2024 and replace with March 2025 in Recommendation 6. May I ask if members of the Board are happy to accept those amendments to Agenda Item 6? The recommendation is that the Board formally endorses the now 11 recommendations, including the amendment. That needs to be moved and seconded. And also in the report, it suggests sending them into cabinet and climate action partnerships. That's two parts to the recommendation. If you're happy with that, if you want to propose that. Yes, please. That's in dicks. We accept both amendments and that the report be submitted to cabinet in due course. All those in -- thank you, Councillor Ahmed. So can I ask, please, for a vote on this matter? Can this go forward? Thank you, members. Carried. Excellent. All right. So that's now going to go forward to cabinet. So we get now to Item 7 to discuss the terms of reference for a detailed review of pollution. Thank you, Claire, and thank you, Kay, very much for coming and for your time. Thank you very much. Full Council passed a motion in relation to water quality in the River Calder, which was cited as the second most polluted river in England. And they asked that Place Scrutiny Panel considers the local authorities' role in working to reduce pollution in our waterways and how their immunity value can be enhanced. Members were invited to provide comments and to propose amendments. Members might wish to extend the review to consider canals and open water. And if that suggestion is made, it would certainly extend, in my view, the length of time that we would have or we'd have to extend it beyond autumn 2024. I had a really good look into the River Calder, and it's not one single waterway. I mean, apologies for people who are more environmentally aware than I am, as I know Councillor Kimber, who sadly can't be with us, is. But it rises in Heald in Lancashire, and it doesn't flow through either Halifax or Huddersfield town centres. But they're served by tributaries, Heblebrook, Coredale, and the River Cone in Kirklees. It's joined by the River Ryburn in Savvy Bridge and Hebden Water in Hebden Bridge. Then it goes through Merfield, Dewsbury, Wakefield, and joins the air near Castleford. And in order to make the River Cauldron navigable in the mid-18th century, the Cauldron-Hebble Navigation Canal was cut, and these cuts join with the river. So the Cauldron-Hebble Canal is effectively part of the same water course, even though technically, it's a canal. And what I wanted to ask is, as a scrutiny board, do we want to consider all these stretches of water with regard to pollution? And if we do, are people content that it would broaden the review and delay the conclusion of the review beyond autumn 2024? Now, it's up to us to decide what we want to do with this. Councillor Hunt. I think that it should include the broadest range of waterways, simply because I think it would be very interesting to show how ownership and responsibilities over these waterways have changed over the years, and the impact of private ownership on some of these things, and the responsibilities that are taken. So I think it shines a light on something, and it shines a light on responsibilities and who's willing to take action, because we can only do so much as a council, whereas as I understand it, the canals and these kinds of parts of the water infrastructure were privatised not a million years ago. I think it was 15 years ago, or 12 years ago, whenever it was. So yeah, I think that the broadest light needs to be shined on it. So I would suggest that. Other comments? Councillor Clark. Thank you, Chair. Yes, I think it should be considered as a whole. We certainly don't. We know that water gets into every little crack it can, so you can't really exclude any part of it, not realistically. Thank you, Councillor Clark. Any other views, please, about this matter? Sorry, Chair. Just to say that I think the terms of reference are well put together and fairly comprehensive, actually. I was looking at the list of people to involve, and I can't actually think of anybody else. So, yeah, I agree with Councillor Clark and Councillor Hunt in terms of the scope and, you know. Thank you. Thank you, Libby, for the terms of reference. That's really very kind. Thank you. I was wondering, from our Green representative, any views? I feel ambushed. Obviously, I just want it to be as extensive as possible. It makes sense for it to be as all-encompassing as it can be, so I didn't realize just how much press was directed, bad press was directed at the Calder until I saw this, to be honest. So I'm quite surprised by that. I knew it was bad. I didn't know it was that bad. So, yeah, just as all-encompassing as possible for me. Thank you. Councillor Clark. Thank you once again, Chair. Well, I would be interested in, personally, I don't know why, but I would like to know where all these sewage spills are, which is the area that has the most sewage spills. Can I turn to Councillor Brandel, who's got a lot of detailed information. If nothing else, go on. Yeah, I have a spreadsheet on this. Just covering Calder Valley, not covering Halifax, but ... So first thing to say is within every single ward in Calder Valley, there are sewage spills. Oh, sorry. That one. Sorry. We're all rusty, I think, starting municipal year at that. And yes, because every ward, actually, some of the worst ones are on River Rybourn and ... I can't remember the name of the brook, sorry, Round Black Brook through West Vale, so some of the worst ones within Colerdale are on those tributaries, so I would agree in terms of broadening that and not just focusing on Calder. Thank you, Councillors. Councillor Wood. Geographically, this all comes under one water company, right? This is all Yorkshire water, all sewage. Or is this also including rural places, where we've got kind of off-grid places, or is this ... Yeah, I'm curious. Well the whole area is under the jurisdiction of Yorkshire water. Are you thinking about leakage from septic tanks, that sort of thing? Or from all the off-grid things, you know, where we've got businesses that perhaps might need to own sewage and stuff? Yeah, Libby. Just to say that one of the things we've put in the terms of reference for members of the board is just about actually finding out the facts in relation to this and making sure that everyone's got that information, so we deliberately said that nobody with the technical knowledge needed to be here to approve the terms of reference, but it's absolutely something we can cover during the course of the review. So did you ... Yeah, cool, thank you. Any other comments from members? No? So we're happy to proceed with the expanded look at the whole of the, what I'll call broadly, the River Cordell tributaries and the Cordar and Hevel canal, and see just exactly what the pollutants are. It's quite interesting. We looked into this before this meeting, and where the river rises in Heald or Held, I don't know how to pronounce it, in Lancashire, when it gets to the foot of Held, it's polluted by an old open-cast mine and an old landfill site. Then it flows down through Huddersfield, where historically it was polluted with textile dyes and the run-off from scouring in the war trade. More laterally, it's been polluted by chemicals, and now it seems to be principally sewage, but there may well be other pollutants that are going into the tributaries. Yes, so it's a case, I think, of getting Yorkshire water in, and the various other bodies that we've listed. I've also found Calder Future, who are a team of environmental volunteers. It's on the council's website, for anybody who wants to just Google Calder volunteers, who do spend quite a lot of time cleaning up the banks and taking debris out of stretches of the river. We might want to involve them, too, I think, at our scrutiny review. Okay, so if everybody's content with that, can we agree? Yes, so can I propose that we do approve the terms of reference and the expanded ... Councilor Hunt, are you seconding? Thank you very much. Is everybody content? Can we put our pause in the air? Thank you. So within the terms of reference, too, it suggests you nominate a lead for this detailed review. If anybody ... I know that Councillor Kimber, I know she can't be here today, but she has expressed to me an interest in leading on this piece of work. I was going to ... To be the chair of the review group and lead on this, I think. I don't want to nominate Councillor Kimber in her absence. I would like to ... Councillor Ahmed would like to second Councillor Kimber. Anybody else who would wish to challenge the chair? So can we all vote to accept Councillor Kimber? Thank you. Oh, sorry, thank you, sorry, we're on to our schedule of work. Yeah, item eight. And if people could sort of turn to the schedule of work, you'll see there are quite a few gaps in it that need to be filled. I'm going to be meeting with Sheena O'Neill tomorrow and Ian Day later on in the week to see what they would think useful for us to discuss. One change already, I'm afraid, is that unfortunately Councillor Foster is unable to present on the last place scrutiny meeting, which took place at the crematorium. She's coming later, isn't she, Libby? Yeah, so I spoke to Councillor Foster earlier today and she has confirmed she can attend on the 12th of September to present that report. Just to build on what Councillor Holdsworth has said, there are obviously a lot of gaps at the beginning of the municipal year, but anybody who does have an area of interest that they want to raise for scrutiny obviously can raise here, or drop myself an email during the course of the week. Thank you, Chair. As I mentioned in an email to you, it's been prolific weather for weeds and I'd be interested in hearing a report from the weed control team for pavements. In terms of their strategy, things like do they have a hierarchy in terms of need with regard to prioritising their weeding programme and feedback on the consequence to the motion that was passed in council in terms of the impact the new weed killers that they're using in terms of effectiveness and cost. That sort of thing, because I don't know about you guys, but I can speak for myself that I'm getting quite a lot of chatter from people, and it has potential legal implications for people tripping up over on pavements. My days as an insurance broker a long time ago often centred on dodgy curb stones, people falling over those, and I can see that sort of thing happening with weeds affecting us as a council, which is money we don't have to spend as far as I'm concerned, or would be nice with money we don't have to spend. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Dickinson. I'd very much like to take this as an item to go forward, and also uneven pavements. Coincidentally, I managed to fall over a pavement in Skirkett Green where a tree, I was on my way at nine o'clock in the morning from the dentists, had poked up and split the paving stones and somebody had infilled it with tarmac, and I wasn't looking, and I went splat. And Libby splattered on her. But that's also something I'd like to include. Thank you, Councillor Gallagher. Right, as Councillor Holdsworth said, we're meeting with the appropriate director over the course of the next few days, so we'll absolutely try and solve something. Sorry, was this the Get Me Home Safely, night time, yep, I mean, I think that's something that I'm very keen to follow through. There have been a series of incidents of late where there have been violent attacks on people across Corderdale, not fueled or using knives, but fueled by coke, there seems to have been a big increase in the use of cocaine. Yeah, yeah, I know, yep. Sounds as scary as knives. It is, and that's something that I would like included, if we could make a note of that, Libby, please. And Councillor Hunt. That's great that you mentioned that, Councillor Ahmed, about the Get Home Safely sort of project that we can look at, because I would have wanted to have sort of tacked onto that how we can work with the WICA policy on VOG, violence against women and girls, so that's like a bit of a thing of mine, so I think it's kind of very connected. It's in the original motion as well. Right, yeah, I think that's something that I would really like to sort of focus on. But the other question I wanted to ask was, does this roster need filling today or this evening or right? We're just trying to see what ideas people have got this evening, and then if you wake up tomorrow morning and think, oh, God, why didn't I mention X, then please just drop myself or Libby a note and we can include it for discussion. And I'll also, when I've had a meeting with Sheila tomorrow afternoon, it's teams at 2 o'clock, and with Ian, I think it's the week after, if they've come up with suggestions of items that they would like us to consider, then I can circulate them around the group and see effectively who wants to put them up the flat pole and salute them. Chair, before we close, I'd like to offer a little bit of any other business, in terms of meeting live. I was just working out for everybody, because I think this sucks, I've really enjoyed the effectiveness of meeting on teams, and I'm not quite sure about the legal basis. As you know, last year we met for call-ins, I'm also wondering about extending it, that deputations need to be heard in person as well, when they arrive. But apart from that, the legal basis of us arriving and meeting live, pleasantly it is to see you all, but the simplicity of meeting on teams suits me certainly better, suits people getting here from a further away better, and would help the environment more, but me not chugging around my massive diesel van everywhere, and everyone else's methods of getting here as well. So I'm wondering what the rest of the board felt on the matter, and whether we can actually, if there's a feeling in the room that perhaps teams is a better way forward for us, whether that is something we can actually do as a board? Well, I was perfectly happy to have hybrid meetings, but I understand that we have been told by Cabinet we have to meet in person, all scrutiny boards. Sorry, Councillor holds up, just to say it's not come from Cabinet, the democratic services have looked into facilitating hybrid, and it's not possible at the moment, is my understanding. I'm unsure as to how in-person meetings will progress, it will be a decision that's not taken within the scrutiny team directly. So it's democratic services who say they're not able to? Just in terms of hybrid, that's not for everything. Just to say that they can't still take that at the moment. Can I ask what's changed in that regard? The hybrid meetings in terms of having people at home and here, that I understand, in terms of the equipment that we have, in terms of the way that we meet as a board on teams. What's changed that means that we can't meet on teams? My understanding is nothing formal has changed for this year, we've had a meeting from the head of Legal and Democratic Services that means we'll be taking place in person this year, but we can absolutely feed back what members are saying. Okay, I'd welcome thoughts from other party members. I want to just know why, I guess, what's the rationale behind it, because it changes the scope of this quite a bit, for me, definitely, I think quite a lot of other people probably as well. I think this goes from something I can jump onto from my job to something I have to commit to mid-afternoon to get back for physically, which is obviously a huge difference. It's going to mean more substitutions and stuff, and just less continuity across ... Welcome to be an elected member. Sorry, Councillor Gallagher. No, no, I'm just saying welcome to be an elected member. We can mention it to the right officers, but I think it would be a difficult process to achieve. Yeah. Councillor Randall. Yeah, I think I know feedback from some of our members last year was that sort of having one or the other was easier to sort of then know what you're doing rather than switching between them, because I think you end up either just, you know, we're busy people forgetting if you're meant to be there in person or on teams, and with access requirements, they don't know if they can go onto a board, because they don't know how much is going to be in person or on teams. I think it's a difficulty with, say, doing alternating between the two or anything. It gets a bit complex. Just to know where it came from and what the rationale behind it is, because, yeah, it might have been like that once upon a time, but I think things have changed in general in the world. Yeah. I've got a job that basically doesn't expect me to be somewhere any particular time. I've just come to use why this has to be that way. Did you say it came from our head of legal services, Libby? Yeah. Literally, you said it, like why did you say it? I'm unsure of the exact reasons, but, as I say, I can certainly feedback members' thoughts. Quite honestly, I don't mind. It's easy for me to get here, but I appreciate that people like Councillor Brundell, a long way to come, Councillor Dickinson stuck on the motorway, so it can be difficult for people. Can I just ask, would the feeling of the board be that you would like Libby to feedback to Mr Hughes, and that we would prefer to be able to meet remotely unless there's a deputation or a call-in? Yeah. I'd like to second that. Can I just clarify, when do we get the deputations in? The day before. The day before. How did we do it last year? No, last year we didn't have a deputation for a specific item for place that wasn't related to a call-in that was already in person, but on adults' board we did invite the person who was presenting the deputation to join online and we provided them with the online door. The sense I'm picking up is that people would like our feelings about meeting remotely to be referred to Mr Hughes and see what the answer is. Nothing wrong with that. I'm sure they'll get the sort of rationale around it. Or at the very least you might arrive at a different option. Yeah, I'll feed that back. I don't think there's anything else then. Oh, of course. Sorry. On that topic and sort of a work programme, just for newer members, visits to places are an option and we had one to park with crematorium at the very end of the last municipal year, which was really useful. It's possible for something to think of when we're thinking of the work programme, but some things like a visit somewhere might be part of that would be really useful. Just wanted to mention where we've got a few new people. There can be more to hear from you. Yeah. God, honestly, I was so glad that I had a mayoral duty and couldn't go and Councillor Brishad had to sub for me. Anyway, that's just me personally. But anyway, are there any other points that members would like to raise? No? No. I'll just say for the benefit of new members, this is a very, very early bath. We normally go on till at least 8 o'clock. But can I thank everybody very much for coming and participating so wholeheartedly. But, Reagan, you weren't here when I expressed my thanks to you for chairing so well last year and I hoped I could do half as good a job. Doubt it. But thank you. Thank you, Steph. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.