Transcript

This meeting has been held face to face, but again, members of the public and other elected members.

Thank you, Chair. Whilst some members just take their seats again, just a reminder that in line with legal requirements, this meeting has been held face to face, but again, members of the public and other elected members. I'll give each other's point of order. We can't hear a word over this side of the room. Again, just a reminder for everyone that this meeting has been held face to face for elected members, but again, members of the Council and the public can join online and participate at the meeting. Just a reminder for any members of the public that are attending this for the first time, it is only the Council's presence in this room that are taking the decisions at the meeting. Any officers present are here to provide advice. Just a reminder for everybody that the agenda and papers for this meeting were published on the Council's website on Monday the 15th of April. The meeting, as you can see, is already being live broadcast, and we will be making an audio recording of the meeting that we published on the Council's website. In terms of fire safety, can I just remind everyone that we are not expecting any planned fire drills today and should the fire alarms go off? If I can ask everybody to leave by the fire exits principally to my left, which is just to the side of this room, where officers will escort everyone round to the front of the building at the main car park as an assembly point. Just a reminder for everybody as well, if anybody does wish to speak, again, if you can raise your hand and both the Vice Chair and myself will be noting names when it comes to then the Chair inviting you to speak, and that's just a reminder that anyone addressing the Council does so at the invitation of the Chair of the Council. Please do not interrupt the debate during the debate sessions. And finally, just a reminder for all speakers, just for the benefit, particularly of any members of the public who are watching this online, if, when you're invited, again, if you could just say your name and your role before speaking. Thank you very much. Okay. If we can move into the agenda, item one is apologies for absence back to you, Scott. Thank you, Chair, the apologies that I've received in advance from group leaders include Councillors Denson, Hobbs, Kay, Keach, Kravis, Robins, Clark, Nicholson, Davies, Ren, Patrick, Dyke, Boyden, I also know that I believe Councillor Perrie is joining later during the meeting, and many members are probably aware that several members are joining the meeting remotely. Thank you very much. Yes, David, first. Thank you, Chair. We also have apologies from Jill Slocum, who's not well, and Christine Lawrence, who continues to recover. Thank you. Yes, Chair, as Councillor Redmond, I've just had notification from Councillor Govea to say that you'd be a little bit late, which is to log his apologies at the beginning of the meeting, but he will, should be here, hopefully. Thank you very much. Were there any further? No. Okay. If we move on to item two, sorry, oh, sorry, Councillor Dimmery. It would seem that Councillor Collins has been delayed, but he's intending to come. Okay. Thank you. Item two on the agenda is to confirm the accuracy of the minutes at full council meeting on the 20th of February 2024. Is it agreed that I signed them as a true record? Okay. Yes. Please. Thank you, Chair. May I just ask that Citizens Advice Bureau be changed to Citizens Advice now. Thank you. Okay. Yes. Yes, to courtesy point, really, when we have Alderman Press and it would be quite nice to actually have their names listed as opposed to the Alderman. I think it's out the Curtis's where we're named. It'd be nice if they were. Okay. Thank you. That's a very good point. And we'll add our two Alderman's names to this meeting. Thank you. Okay. If we now move on to item three, which is declarations of interest, Jill. I've not received any additional declarations of interest from any members, Chair. And just for the meeting, the interest of members in terms of membership of town, city and parish councils is on our website. Thank you very much. Okay. If there are no declarations off of the floor, I'll move on to item four, which is public question time. If I could, I will be inviting members of the public to speak. They have up to three minutes to cover their points. I will remind them that members have received a full copy of their submission. So if they feel it not the need to read everything out and just pray, see, it would be appreciated. Our first speaker who is on teams this afternoon is David Regwell. Mr. Regwell. Well, thank you, Chair. So my question today is about Yovil bus station, it's infrastructure. We held a meeting and fortunately, the leader of the council was on holding and setting apologies. We stakeholders from Somerset and Dorset bus user groups from Dorset and Somerset from the southwest region stakeholder groups and also first group PLC and rail partnerships. The other bus station is very complicated, it's owned by a development company in Northern Ireland who put it up for sale as part of the quadrum shopping centre. So we understand there's a major redevelopment plan. We understand Somerset has a lease which it took over from South Somerset. I think first is prepared to do some work to keep the waiting room open. Others may be prepared to do some work to try and keep the bus station functioning and its passenger facilities. Obviously this side of the Dorset election, I wouldn't ask for a meeting, but I think on behalf of Peter Travis and Somerset bus partnership, the West Dorset public transport users group and first and the operators on that call, I wonder if Bill and Richard would meet with a number of us to see if there's a way forward that may involve very little council money, but we need to have the conversation with partners and as the council now under its new sort of way of working is no longer going to be able to do everything itself but it's going to be more of a partnership council in the way perhaps Devon and Cornwall also are and Bristol, we would welcome that approach. So really all I'm asking for is a meeting. On the second issue, it's about the submission and making sure we cover off the bus stations and interchanges in the county for our submission on the 12th of June to Mark Harper, State for Transport, I still believe you'll be in post on that date and making sure we cover off the management of our bus stations and interchanges. I know we don't have a clear structure at the moment and that's working in progress and I welcome that but that we do have an investment program ongoing with the Department for Transport for our interchanges across the county and the third point really is passenger information. I was a bit dismayed now we'll bring this up as a member of your bus advisory board that first produced a bus timetable for a Somerset recently but managed to leave a number, well put some services in like Western Supermere to Wells and services between OK and services from Burnham chair to towards Western and some of the routes between Tornton and Bristol and Bridgewater but failed to put all the routes between Wells and Bath in it, so perhaps on Freeman bus, so perhaps we could talk to first corporately about the timetable and how we also put local bus information in there as well, especially in an area of tourism and a need to local residents and also information on bus stops. Thank you very much Chairman for your endeavours, thank you. Thank you very much Richard Wilkins to respond. Thank you Chair and thank you David for your question and as you know I'm always willing to meet yourself or Peter Travis as part of the Somerset Bus Partnership and indeed we do have a board meeting coming up for the next couple of days. In response to your questions, as you're aware we have a need to make some very difficult decisions in recent months to set a budget, those decisions include the closure of public toilets because of cleaning and maintenance costs. Some town, city and parish councils are stepping in to keep some of these facilities open. Once devolved like this, Somerset Council passes control to the other organisation and they would be managed as part of the organisation's fit, so there isn't a role for us. We have had discussions with the overall town council but they're not currently in a position to take on the responsibility for the facilities at the town, bus and coach station. It is vital that Somerset Council moves forward to a long-term financially sustainable position to deliver the vital services. Bringing together five complex organisations takes time and we're still in the process of aligning some of these areas because we don't have the resources to do everything at once. I've asked for officers to take a detailed look at the bus and coach infrastructure over the next year so that we're in a better position to move forward from. Second question, to clarify the position, the submission of the updated bus service improvement plan, the BSIP in June 2024 does not represent a funding bid to government on this occasion but will again set out our future ambitions subject to funding. The submission of the BSIP in June is to release the 2024/2025 funding branch already allocated by government as part of the original BSIP. We are following the government's guidance on the submission and we have consulted with the operators, bus users and stakeholder groups and we'll be consulting the bus advisory board in the next week prior to our submission by the deadline. Third question, our position on the provision of timetable displays at bus stops is that it is the operator's responsibility where the service is commercial or part funded by Somerset Council. Where the service is fully funded we will look to ensure that the displays are updated unless we have had insurance from the operators that they're going to update the timetable displays. With the recent changes on the 7th and 15th of April we had assurances from both first group companies that all timetable displays would be updated in time for the changes introduced. However, we've been advised from 1st West of England that due to a delay in supply of their displays from their printers, they have not been able to update the displays along the routes in Somerset which have changed. We have been advised that these timetables will be delivered to 1st West of England by the end, we're commencing the 15th of April and we have offered resources to help get these displays posted as soon as possible. We do not have the resources to undertake widespread updates of timetable cases on our own when large changes occur and we rely on operators to fulfil this task in a timely manner but we are able to assist when requested. Thank you David. Thank you very much. My next speaker is Rosa Kell who I believe is in the room, could you approach the lectern please. I apologize Chair, I'm actually online. I apologize I'm just reading what was written here as my apologies. That's okay Chair, I was supposed to be there but I couldn't get there apologies. Thank you. I think Mr Wilkins, Councillor Wilkins has actually answered my questions but I'll ask them anyway. We as passengers from the Wells District are concerned at the closure of the toilets at Yovo and of course the any announcement about and future new bus station in Yovo. We travel to Yovo, it is a major town and it's very important to us and as disabled and diabetic and passengers we require a loo at getting off at Yovo bus station. It's very very important that those toilets remain disposable to us. That basically was my first two questions. The third question it really relates to a concern that we passengers have. Some are set like all local authorities, machines, cash from coach operators who park on their sites. We're wondering where those funds are going and are they being diverted elsewhere because they don't appear to be that income doesn't appear to be spent on the infrastructure of our bus network. Perhaps we could have an answer on that. Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you. Back to you, Richard. Thank you, Rosa. I will answer the first question and it's fairly similar to the previous answer. As you're aware, we need to make some very difficult heartbreaking decisions in recent months to set a balanced budget. Those decisions include the closure of public toilets because of the cleaning and maintenance costs. We appreciate that this is a difficult decision and reduces facilities available for bus users and we continue to seek opportunities to reduce the impact of these changes. We are also aware that the club has walked shopping precinct, the bus station and part of Lower Middle Street has been put on the market. We appreciate there are concerns about the potential impact of the sale of the bus infrastructure and once a sale has been completed, we will be able to engage with new owners to understand their intentions and ascertain if there will be any impact on the bus station's operations. We will then be able to determine what, if any, action is necessary to maintain the appropriate facilities for bus users. We appreciate the concerns and we will be working collaboratively across various transport planning communities and property services to deal with these matters and we will engage with stakeholders on any plans and proposals at the appropriate time. The second question, or third question in reality, the council does not currently derive income from bus operators in relation to the use of bus hubs or bus stations. We understand that minimal access fees have been charged on specific facilities in the past where these have been in local authority ownership and we will be reviewing the relative benefits and this benefits of access fees on public transport operations as part of our ongoing work on the median term financial plan and the enhanced bus partnership. Thank you, Rosa. Thank you. Our next question was put in by Peter Travis, but I believe Linda is online to put that question. Thank you. Sorry, Richard. My name is Linda Snelling. I'm the over bus user group and also part of some bus partnership and I'm sorry, Richard. It's another one about the bus station. I'll try and be as quick as possible. The national bus strategy for England stated bus stations should be protected from closure, redevelopment and be improved. Essential features of any bus station are toilets for passengers and bus drivers and the waiting room. Improving bus infrastructure is a key aim for bus better and Somerset recognise this in successfully bidding, getting a bid with a b-sit money with the plans of Taunton bus hub. The Oval Bus Station is another key regional transport hub, identified by two transport boards, Peninsula Transport and Western Gateway and essential for both Somerset and Dorset bus and coach services. Yet Somerset Council is to close the toilets and waiting room and the bus station on the 31st of May. Without these facilities, drivers, passengers and those with conditions will significantly be affected by their closure and it will impact passenger numbers, especially on our under threat services of 54 and 58. The Oval Bus Station is part of Glover's walk development, is one of the biggest regional development sites in Somerset, currently up for sale and under offer. It is vital that the Oval Bus and coach station is preserved and considered a key part of any future development that replaces Glover's walk. What urgent steps is the Somerset Council taking to ensure the functioning toilets and waiting room at the bus station after June 24th? But what discussions are happening with Northern Ireland property owners of Glover's walk to secure the future of the Oval Bus Station and coach station? Richard? Thank you Linda. I think the best bet is if I refer the answer that I gave Mrs Cow. I think that pretty much answered everything. But obviously we continue to work with the bus partnership to find the best solutions for the people at Somerset and the bus users. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You will be getting a full written response as well. Appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah, the next speaker is Nigel Bien. You have three minutes, sir. Thank you, Chair. I'll just summarise very briefly because I'm quoting some of the stuff from the papers today. In particular that the Council continues with the aim of avoiding the Section 114 notice by taking all of the necessary actions and continuing to cooperate as if one had been issued. And then further down, there's an issue about seeking reforms of the Council attacks. So you can set their own Council tax levels without a need for a referendum. But does this proposed campaigning also include seeking reforms to of the existing regressive Council tax system? And then the next question just a bit of following on from that really. Does the Council think that Citytown Parish Council should have limits set externally prescribed to the precept they require if or otherwise, for instance, they indirectly or directly take on services, devolved quote, unquote, from the Unitary Authority, or should be able to set meaningful budgets that at least attempt to meet community needs. And then following on from that, whichever government is formed after the next election, how confident of legislative statutory change is the Council, which would create a sustainable, fully funded local authority, which delivers for citizens and service users, residents, Council taxpayers and electors. Thank you, Chair. Thank you very much. Liz Leishin to respond. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Bean, for your questions. You're always bang on trend on the money, whichever term you wish to use. So in answer to your first question about the regressive Council tax system, short answer is yes, absolutely. However, we must be realistic in our expectations. Council tax was introduced for a short period of time, originally back in 1993. A completely new system of local taxation would be a massive undertaking. And so my hope would be that a new government will take some actions to improve council tax by revising the bans and introducing higher bans for bigger, higher value properties. If a new government wanted to take one action that would make an immediate difference and put monies where they are most needed, they could look for a modern council tax reduction scheme such as we have in Somerset and fund it nationally. That was the origin of the council tax reduction scheme with government funding, but that has disappeared into less specific grants and left local authorities with a part mandated system which impacts on each council's income. As an indicator, Somerset Council's cost of delivering the current council tax reduction scheme is approximately 36 million a year, with 16 million of that for the mandated part of the scheme for pension age and 20 million for working age households. On your question B, we don't believe that any council should have limits set upon them by government. This position has long been supported by the local government association and I checked their website yesterday that it is still there. In the MTFS papers, so the medium term financial strategy papers today, as recommended by the executive earlier this month, there is reference to 'greater local freedoms' and for me that would include the ability to set council tax to reflect the need for services in the community and to reflect the council tax base and historic rate. Greater local freedoms could also be taken to relate to planning application fees and licensing fees because full cost recovery as a minimum would seem a perfectly reasonable request to any government. On the subject of what government could do to better support local authorities, the treasury could find a way to improve the interest rate on funds placed with the equivalent of PWLB so that council's treasury management officers wouldn't have to look for safe places to deposit monies. If the government can arrange for PWLB to make loans to councils which contribute to government funds, there is no reason why they couldn't find a way to improve the deal for local authorities with regard to deposits. You might remember the offset mortgage, which I believe is still in operation. Then on question 4C, in the Department of Leveling Up, Housing and Communities Response to the Select Committee report on financial distress in local authorities, the words most used were 'in the next Parliament' so that gives us a very clear indication that nothing will change before the general election. We believe that this should be a priority for the new government, but realise that in practice things are very unlikely to be changed in time for the 25-26 budget and of course it becomes more difficult as the general election timing goes further into the autumn when councils are already working on the next year budget. So if nothing changes, more councils will move towards the position of Somerset Council, the more reserves will be used and the more assets and investments will be sold. That is clearly not a sustainable situation. The issue is how quickly might change come forward because it's horribly overdue already. Thank you, Chair. Thank you very much. Our next speaker is Eva Brokowski, who is online. Are you there either? You're muted. Can you unmute yourself? No, you're still muted. Yeah, we'll come back to you. I'll go on to the next one and we'll try again. Okay, so now we go to my house. We're back in. Are you there either? Yeah, can you hear me? Yes, we can hear your name if you'd like to get your question. Thank you. Yeah, if you could tell me after a minute loudly and then another minute and then when I've got 30 seconds, please, Chair. Okay, I'm getting the hang of you. Okay, right. Many of you Councillors have held the ICB to account since Quicksilver Group and myself spoke last year and asked them to revisit the decision. But they still plowed on doing exactly what they wanted to do. At the March, the first meeting in your public meeting, many of you asked excellent questions. But these were disregarded on March the 28th when they decided to move this service to Dorchester, even before we could ask questions, the public could ask questions, they'd already decided. What I'm concerned with is reports in scrutiny committees and other things where everything in the garden is rosy, stakeholders are held to account. No, they're not. Now, when I spoke Dean Roddle, God rest his soul, told me that the Council only had one vote. No, influenced really. One minute. Sorry. Thank you. He didn't think much of the ICB. He spoke the truth. Thank you, Dean. Now, also, I hope your reply is going to be specific and not just fluffy generalities. How much influence do you have? Yes, no. Can you request that people voting on the ICB meetings actually scrutinise more carefully? Now, Mr Sharkey told me that he read the papers I did thoroughly. And, you know, instead of building up Yovell, acute services, they're building up Dorchester that isn't even equipped to that extent at the expense of Yovell, when, for example, from residents, you know, far from Dorchester and risk gain, brain damage and solar recovery. And this is a, you know, fervent debt regarding subsidising care. Thank you. So already a thousand staff have been thrown onto the dole. There's very few voluntary redundancies. But, you know, that's further debt. Now, my question, second question and I didn't make it specific was regarding the post office horizon scandal, where, you know, people shouldn't be, the ICB shouldn't be allowed to walk away from their decisions and the consequences on Somerset stroke patients, Somerset residents. So finally, you know, 30 seconds left. Thank you. So I thank those of you that have scrutinised well, but I think the reports in scrutiny have to say we have a little influence, if not none, and often the ICB just choose to actually do what they want to do, despite consultations, a public meeting of 100 people, angry people, you know, all the evidence and et cetera, they just do what they want to do because they can. So I hope in the reports that actually that is said. Okay. Thank you, Chair. Thank you very much. Liz Lyshan too. Chair Sarah Waite. Oh, Sarah Waite. Sorry. Sarah. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. And thank you, either, for your question. As you probably know, I'm fairly new to this post, but I have written a reply and I will send you a reply as well in writing. I have seen and read the passionate and powerful questions you put to us. You are, of course, reflecting the concerns of many in the yoga area about the decision which I understand has been made to move the has you, the hyperacute stroke unit, stroke unit to Musgrove, but to keep open the acute stroke unit at Yovell. There will also be a has you in Dorchester, although I'm not sure if it's operating yet. I witnessed some of the debates at a briefing before the decision was made and at scrutiny too. In my view, the matter has been very thoroughly aired and the objections of concerned locals about lowering of standards of care, increased journey times for patients and relatives, and the real fear of poorer outcomes for those who live closest to Yovell hospital and who feel that either Musgrove or Dorchester will not give them the security they need and are entitled to expect from the NHS services. Whilst I share these very real concerns, which I know are very sincerely held by many, I think that there are two powerful points to be made here. The NHS is actually struggling successfully to recruit the doctors and staff they need for stroke units at both Musgrove and Yovell, and also does not have the time or resources to continually delay a decision which they have been trying to make for many months if not longer. I am quite convinced that, were the NHS in a more comfortable position in terms of resources and staff, a different decision might have been made. Sadly, this is not the case, and those who run and operate the service have concluded that in order to run an acceptable service giving the best outcomes for the most people in their particular situation, they need to concentrate there has used in Musgrove and Dorchester but not in Yovell. I believe that we as accounts will have allowed and facilitated debate on this and have participated in the discussions and decision making as far as possible, listening to and emphasising the points made by many residents as far as possible. However, this is ultimately and primarily a clinical decision made by professionals and their governing bodies about how best to use the resources they have available. In an era where the rationing of services due to financial and staffing constraints is only too familiar to us here at Somerset Council, I can only add my concern and sympathy to those affected and my hope that the new arrangements will not prove to be as unsatisfactory or damaging as is feared. Thank you. Thank you and apologies for asking the wrong person to respond and look of horror on Liz's face. Okay, if we move on to the next speaker which is Matt Harrison, please. Thanks, Chair. Can you hear me okay? Yes, we can hear you. Thank you. Really, it's not so much a question as a statement as I'd like to read out on behalf of Shept and Melet Town Council and the Charitable Community Benefit Society that's been set up to save the Amulet Theatre. So, I last spoke to you in May 2023 at the establishment of Somerset Council. I'd just like to begin by thanking all Councillors for your service to Somerset over the last 12 months, especially in very challenging financial times. My message last year was that Shept and Melet Town Council of the years of lacking a strategic direction and joined up working ourselves as now in the position of strength. We're about to complete our first four-year strategy which has resulted in numerous improvements across the town. We have a richer events calendar, we've invested in our public realm, we've campaigned to protect facilities and services, and built relationships with businesses in the third sector to build resilience for the future. I still look forward to realising many of our assets of you last year. We still seek to have clarity on the future of the shape and mend at campus, not to travel lodge, please, to take ownership of the West Shept and playing fields to build a sports park, to devolve the commercial road car park, which is currently redundant town centre space, and to allow us to take over the running of our 750-year-old Friday market, which is hanging on by a thread. Last Friday there were just three stalls there. But today, and this week is actually an exciting time. For once the stars seem aligned, there is an opportunity which for Shept and Melet could be completely transformational. The government's recently announced culture projects levelling up fund has come into critical juncture. One of our town centres learnt Lords is looking to divest their property portfolio, which includes the formula Amulek Theatre. The building, which is not in a good physical state, dominates our town centre and casts both a physical and metaphorical shadow over our town. And for each to provide the town as to cultural venue, it was perhaps before its time. I went for all councils today with a history lesson, but it has remained mostly empty for a decade and is fast decaying. Knowing that the building was up for sale, the town council commissioned a structural survey in commercial valuation. A charitable community benefit society has been established to model how to refurbish the building, and some initial funding has been won to model cultural and commercial plans to enable it to become a long-term viable project. Shept and Melet has no theatre, it has no cinema, it has no leisure centre, it has no tourist information centre, it has no bank, it has no substantial indoor hireable venue space, it doesn't even have a town hall. We have a built budding arts scene, but that relies on a sporadic mix of spaces across town, I think disused shops and registry offices. The CCBS has already planned on making the Amulek a multi-user space. The project already attracted support from numerous organisations from the arts and cultural sectors and national attention from architectural and theatre companies. What the project needs most is money. A beard was already being prepared for the community ownership fund, but that would have only allowed a light touch opening. This new funding round could enable the facility to open from day one and positively impact the whole town. Frame has the cheese and grain, Wells house theatres and cinemas, Street has strode theatre and cinema, Glastonbury has won the town fund. I understand Mendip towns are understandably vying for this money. What matters here is the biggest impact on the most culturally underserved conurbation in the Mendip, Shepton Mallet. I would therefore ask you to consider the Amulek bids to help deliver an enterprising flourishing and fairer Somerset. Thank you for your time. Thank you very much. Federalie Christmas Roberts to reply. Thank you Matt and thank you for your question and bringing the Amulek theatre to the wider council audience. I had a really good meeting last week with your fellow Councillors Jane and Martin alongside Councillor Thiye, but Phillips, where we were not only talking about the market, but they were telling us about the Amulek theatre and the plans. It is a really interesting and exciting time in Mendip in relation to the capital funding of five million pounds that we've received from the Department of Leveling Up Housing and Communities to spend on cultural projects in Mendip. I really do appreciate the background information you have provided. As the lead member for housing communities in culture, I want to assure you that we have a process in place to work with the city and towns in Mendip to develop a list of potential projects that could benefit from the funding. The cultural director is leading this project and will collaborate with both internal and external stakeholders, including yourselves and the other tiny city councils. And we alongside that had a good meeting yesterday with historic England, the heritage lottery and the arts council in relation to this funding. I understand that the Amulek project is one of the projects on the list for consideration and we are using a set of criteria to decide which projects to take forward to meet the tight deadlines that the department has set for us. We have tight deadlines in relation to spending that money with it being just over a year, but also tight deadlines in relation to submitting our investment plans with the original deadline being the 10th of May for all of the projects to be submitted to deal up that that has now been extended today to the 3rd of June. We will follow a critical path and that ensures that we will continue to involve yourself, the other stakeholders, as well as those internally and externally alongside the MPs for the area. With regards to your comments around the future of both shape Mendip and the other assets that I'm Shepden. Mallet Tang Hanksle would like. We will continue to work with the service directors and continue to have meetings alongside yourself to move those forward. We will continue to keep up to date with you and do please email me if you have any further queries. Thank you for championing the Amulek. Thank you. Thank you very much. Okay, our final public speaker is Neil Rhodes. Do we have Mr Rhodes in the audience? If not, can I ask Scott to read the question please? Thank you, Mr Rhodes. We should raise several concerns regarding alleged dishonesty and restrictions on democracy by council officers, as well as his ability to access senior managers. Could I ask the leader to respond? Thank you. Yes, indeed. And thanks for raising your concerns with us, Mr Rhodes. To ensure that your concerns are thoroughly reviewed and addressed in a manner consistent with the council's complaints policy, I'd request that you submit your details of your concerns in writing a written record helps us to proceed with a formal evaluation and ensure that all necessary details are considered carefully. Please include any relevant informational documents that would insist in understanding or resolving the matters that you've raised. Once we've received your written submission, we'll initiate the review process as outlined in the complaints policy and we'll keep you informed of our progress. We do thank you for your cooperation and understanding. We are committed to addressing your concerns promptly and efficiently. I have enjoyed our phone calls and email exchanges over the last year, and I will be more than happy to meet with you personally myself to address any of the concerns that you have remaining. Thank you. Thank you very much, Bill. That concludes the public question time and I thank all of our questioners for coming forward. I'd like to now move to Appendix V of the attached schedule, which is a member's question and ask Norman Cavill to put the question. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Residents have brought to my attention the many delays in providing the promised fiber to the promises in the cluster DC9. This is British and Thorne Falcon, North Curry, Stoughton Gregory and Byerbridge, an area that has abysmal broadband speeds at the moment, and hopefully airband will improve them. But at the moment, they've consistently failed in their delivery timetable, with apparently no penalties or charges holding them to a can. It's published information airband as part of its restructuring is laying off some of its workforce. In fact, since broadband published its accounts, no one local has seen its workforce in that area. The area doesn't appear to be hugely challenging. It's got good road systems and the poles are there ready to serve as the area. So one wonders how this reduction in workforce is going to improve the delivery of fiber to the premises. In recent airband accounts, there's a statement that says there's a material uncertainty that makes our significant doubt that the whole group and the company's ability to continue as a going concern, a serious situation. There's also notable posts in the sheet balance events that set out that shares with you for cash consideration of 33 million, bringing in some clash that's clearly been used since. In August 23, the major shareholder agreed a £56 million loan, and this facility was fully drawn down in February 24. The note's also evidence that following strategic review in February 24, the company commenced a restructuring of the business to quote, to transition from a phase of rapidly building our network to focusing on commercializing the existing network. As a result of the revised strategy, the company anticipates in carrying contractual penalties, restructuring costs, with a reduction in the recovery of grant income and capital expenditure. It would seem it needs to secure immediate revenue. So airband has confirmed that its focus is now on commercializing its existing network, i.e. its sales, and that its move from the focus of building the network. This alone must surely be enough to question their contract, as airband appears to be no longer concentrating on the contract to build fibre to the premises. And surely it's not in the county or connecting seven-in-devan and Somerset interest to support a business that's not complying with its core contract to bring fibre to our rural areas. So is it not Somerset Council's role as the accountable body to monitor these contracts, enter into with providers, both for accountability with time scales and financials, penalties for failure generally form part of a sound contract and are generally used if needed. Please, at this time, I would ask you to carry out a critical review of airband, and if you find they're not delivering, to very quickly take action, and if necessary, to ward the contract to another provider. Furthermore, can you confirm that all funds provided to set connecting to Devon and Somerset and the Somerset Council intended to be used for connecting Devon and Somerset's connectivity is being used for the set purposes? I would add at this point that a week in politics is a long time, but it is so in finance, since I wrote this question, airband has secured more funding from its parent company, but such funding, I believe, will be helping its further commercialisation. So we want to see fibre to the premises, and taxpayers want to see value for their money, and their promises fulfil. Thank you. Richard Wilkins, to reply. Thank you, Norman. In answer to your first question, yes, Somerset Council, as the accountable body, does monitor the contracts with the providers. The contract reflects the terms of building digital UK's standard template contract, which does not include contractual penalties for delay. Building digital UK is the government's responsible agency and national competency centre for broadband delivery. The contracts are based on a gap-funded model in which public subsidy provides top-up to bridge the gap between the investment from the broadband supplier and the full cost of delivery to areas which are not commercially viable. These publicly-subsidised contracts do not cover the full cost of the network built. The broadband supplier must cash flow the full cost of the network build until each required work item under the relevant contract referred to as a milestone is achieved, and has been technically and financially assured by Somerset Council. In such contracts, as suppliers therefore faces inherent commercial risk if it overspends or delays. Subject to contractual terms, the supplier cannot require more subsidy from the authority, and subsidy payments are only paid in relation to a milestone when the supplier has completed that milestone to an acceptable standard in accordance with the relevant contract. There's a question to Somerset Council and its partners in the CDS program that's connecting Devon and Somerset program are aware of the reports that airband has been restructuring and has seen the published accounts. Offices have met with airband personnel to seek clarity about the impact of restructuring on CDS contracts. These discussions are ongoing and are commercially confidential. When the factual position becomes clearer, the options can be considered and it will be possible to provide updates to members, residents, businesses about the impact of airbands restructuring on the CDS contract. For procurement and legal reasons, it would not be possible to award the contract to another provider. Finally, yes, grant funders only pay grants once the claim is made supported by evidence of payment. Suppliers must achieve milestones which then pass through technical and financial assurance before any payment can be made. Once Somerset has paid the milestone, it can then claim grants from the relevant grant provider. Thank you, Norman. Thank you. Okay, that concludes the questions. I've now changed and modified the order of the agenda and I'd like now to move to item 9, which is the agenda item for motions. We'd like to start with item A, which is the motion on the plight of the Ukrainian people. I would like to bring the following motion before this council, the motion being applied to the Ukrainian people against a Russian aggressor led by Vladimir Putin. That this council notes as a result of an ongoing conflict over 1 billion Ukrainians have been forced to leave the country fleeing the conflict and that many of those people have been remained in the country are facing a humanitarian crisis. This council stands in solidarity with Ukraine and the Ukrainian people against Putin's ego invasion along with their friends and relatives here in the Somerset. This council notes Somerset's proud record of supporting refugees fleeing from Afghanistan, Syria and many other conflicts, helping them to settle in Somerset. The forecounsel hopefully will therefore continue to provide support locally to Ukraine refugees working in collaboration with local voluntary and community sector. Council will call on government to continue to provide essential aid to Ukraine by singing a letter to the Prime Minister from the Chair of this council. May I respectfully ask that all Councillors do vote in favour in supporting this motion and to show the Council's ongoing support for our fellow human beings against a tyrant regime. Thank you. If I could now move to Henry Holp House, who is seconding the motion. Miss German, if I can wait till the end, comment please. Okay, I would like to open it up for Councillors if they wish to comment. Councillor Smith Roberts. Thank you, Chair. I'm happy to support this motion. Somerset and our residents have been very generous in hosting Ukrainians within our communities, offering their spare rooms for people fleeing the war and seeking refuge in a safe place and as long as this continues we will respect the issues of the people of Somerset by continuing to welcome and support Ukrainians. The scheme is currently open until March 2025 that the government has set up and a recent change has been made however to the late time of visa is issued for from three years to 18 months for all new applications. Whilst we did not anticipate the war in the Ukraine to last this year long, we expect the government to continue supporting the scheme until it is safe for the Ukrainian people to return home. The original 1900 refugees hosted in Somerset, 428 have returned home and only 54 have moved to another local authority. Nearly 800 people have left their host accommodation and are now living in private rental with most adults working and contributing within the communities. There have also been 22 families housed in the 27 local authority housing fund properties that we have purchased through the LAHF scheme and this has been so rewarding for all of our communities to see the positive effects on families to have a place to call home. It has been a huge benefit for Somerset to have these communities and for these houses to be part of it. Our core value within the Displaced People Service that sits within the community's direct threat is that Somerset seeks to provide an inclusive welcome to all Displaced People regardless of the route or scheme by which they arrive and we seek to promote their independence and integration through securing accommodation, access to health and education and the provision of wraparang support as close as possible to their new communities. We could not do that without the residents of Somerset supporting them and then many voluntary communities and groups that look to make that happen to fully support us continuing this. Bransmith. Thank you very much, Chair. I'm very happy to support this motion. I think it raises on with the information that Councillor Smith-Robbitz has given. I think for many who don't realise the amount of work that Somerset Council has been putting into supporting not only the Ukrainians but also the Afghan refugees. I chair the Somerset Migration Board and working with partners and obviously the many people who have been provided homes for people for you coming from Ukraine, we have as a council and as a county being very welcoming and I think we will hope to continue this and we will continue with support from the government to be able to provide support for anybody who comes here from not only Ukraine but also Afghanistan and I'm very proud of the work that our officers have been doing working with the many different partnerships in enabling the work that has been happening over the past couple of years and hopefully it will continue. Thank you. Thank you very much. I can't see any of the hands so I will go back to the proposed and seconded to have their closing remarks before we vote. Mark, can you lead us on? Yes. Thank you, Chairman. Thank you to colleagues. I won't say on the other side of the chair the chain, but it's not right. But I'd like to thank you for your welcome and support. Thank you, Chairman. Thank you. Henry, would you like to conclude? Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This motion was actually asked to be put forward in March. Now it has become slightly too late because the Americans, as you know, are now cleared the payment that Ukraine needs to defend itself and the British have done the same thing this week. Without those payments and without those ammunition, the Ukrainians will be overrun this summer. And I thank you all for your support. Thank you. The motion has been put and seconded. Could I have a show of hands? All those in favour? Anyone against? Any abstentions? Okay, that's carried. So we move to B, which is the motion relating to Council property investment. And I would ask Brian Smedley to introduce, please. Okay, thank you very much. You'll note that an altered version of the motion has been circulated in accordance with the Council's alteration procedures. And the second Councillor Collins has supported this. So I trust you'll accept me to speak on the altered motions around everybody's table, and it's on emails as well that have gone round. Yes, that's fine. If you'd like to continue, if you... Okay, thank you. So the purpose of the motion in front of you today is to end this Council's investment in Albert Systems, and therefore potential capacity in the current historic and ongoing carnage in Palestine. It further aims to establish an ethical investment policy for this Council. And this is not a new idea, and I've been arguing this position since 2020, when the former owner's Sajma District Council, when I was the leader of the opposition there, it was also the first thing I asked for when I was elected to county in May 2022, and when the ownership was transferred across during the unitary process. So the background to this investment, as you'll know, is the Government's withdrawal of rate support funding, which compelled Council to seek replacement funding. On Sajma, as in many other places, they set up things like property investment boards, and they gave a large number of money to invest in mixed portfolio of commercial properties for the targets of getting a return on that. I was a non-voting member on that board, as lead with the opposition, and I urged at the time that all that investment should be ethical, and also argued ideally locally. But in Sajma 2020, in January 2020, Sajma obtained the Aztec West property with Albert Systems as the tenant, and incidentally, co-op legal services, the October of the second block, and they did that in January

1. So I didn't have a vote on that, and I just spoke against it. Sajma went ahead and did that, they invested in that, despite they knowing the controversial nature of it. Indeed, they were advised at the time by their property advisors, who said some councils would not wish to take on a property with an Israeli defence manufacturer as a tenant. So they knew that, seemed that Sajma wasn't one of those councils. So in 2020, there wasn't the current level of carnage in Palestine that we've seen today, but Israel was nevertheless behaving aggressively in the occupied territories, and regularly using high-tech weapons against civilians. So protests have been active since then, against this long before the current aggression. And to be clear, Albert Systems, as you all should know by now, is the Israeli-owned defence manufacturer, a specialising in drone system for military aircraft helicopters, armed remote control boats, land vehicles for command and control, and is heavily engaged in the militarisation of borders worldwide, not just in Palestine. It has electronically controlled walls and borders in the occupied Palestinian territories, and that's been since 2002, and it's a self-proclaimed leader in border surveillance technologies. The council was aware of the controversial nature of Albert Systems. However, I don't think the council truly appreciates the consequences of such investments until protestors directly targeted Sajma or council officers in June 2020-21. And the Labour Council at the time called on Sajma to adopt an ethical investment policy, and I again raised the moral choice of divestment. I got the impression that they were going to divest, in fact, but they didn't. They just passed it along for Somerset to have to deal with. Sadly now, Somerset, this council has to deal with the outcome of that. When Sajma came to an end in 2023, I approached the new council to ask that whether they consider divestment, and I was assured that this was a route they were going to go down. However, we've not yet had this divestment. What we have had since then, of course, is a major flare-up in Palestine, in Gaza, in particular, with more than 30,000 Palestinian lives lost as a result of Israeli use in high-tech weapons to destroy communities and devastates a piece of land. And that piece of land, if you put it on a map of Somerset, stretches just from tons into Glastonbury. That's the small bit of land that is being devastated by these systems. So, Albert are clearly complicit in that horror, and therefore Somerset is as well, unless they do divest. So, this motion recognises that the council has attempted to find ways to divest, and it comes as a time of course, as you know, we're divesting anyway. We're trying to go into everything due to financial crisis. The motion also supports that the inevitable divestment, but in addition, it urges immediate action to find legal ways to evict Albert, so that we no longer are complicit in this demonstration of lives. It further underlines the need for 100 percent ethical commercial investment policy. So, this kind of deplorable investment doesn't happen again. This comes at a time when the world is increasingly urging an end to arms sales to Israel. This needs to happen now. The UK government needs to back this. That signal alone would lead to instant investments and provide the legal grounds for this council to be no longer complicit. Israel has to live in peace with their neighbours, and Palestine has to be free. Thank you. Can I now move to Shane Collins, please? Shane Collins, please. Yes, thank you. This has been a difficult motion to get agreement on the wording, taking many hours last night in this morning, and it's worth noting and thanking Councillor Brian Smedley, Ali Morgan and Palestine Action and the Leader of the Council for their quite large amounts of time spent on this. And also, because, like many other people in the world, we are in a problem that is not of our own making. This is a legacy investment that we are currently trying to get rid of for commercial reasons. What is going on in Gaza reminds me of the film Zone of Interest. That human condition which allows us to ignore terrible things which may not affect us directly in day-to-day life, but has appalling consequences for others. So, I welcome this motion as it opens the way to look at legal roots for eviction. Our lease with Elbit, section 12.3, allows for forfeiture or eviction. If the tenant does anything which is, I quote, illegal or immoral or which would cause a nuisance of any damage or any damage to the landlord, end quote. The Public Interest Law Centre, having taken advice from Garden Court Chambers and Liz Davis, Casey, certainly feel there is evidence of illegal or immoral activity. And I think in our heart of hearts, we are all disgusted at the catastrophe unfolding in Gaza and UK's continued arms sales to the IDF. Somerset's legal view is that Aztec West is an office, albeit the head office of Elbit UK, and not where weapons are actually made. I suspect in court, the company headquarters would be as culpable as the company factory if not more so. I note also a 70 page letter from the Law Centre was sent yesterday with further legal advice which I hope we will be able to act upon. Elbit UK supplies 85% of the IDF's military drone fleet. They make many of the over 100,000 shells which the IDF has fired on Gaza using the artificial intelligence lavender system which comes up with the targets and gives the human 22nd to agree or disagree with. That AI lavenders generated targets with huge, huge collateral damage. There is a slow starvation happening with increasing malnutrition. More than 33,000 civilians killed, 70% of whom are women and children with many thousands more buried under the rubble. We will all look back in a few years time and wonder how the IDF got away with it. There are two aggressive wars going on at the moment, one in Gaza and one in Ukraine, and it is worth asking what we would do if we had a Russian company making weapons in a Somerset property. My feeling is we should do the same for Elbit and Gaza. I urge you to vote for this motion. Thank you. Okay, I would now like to open it up for other Councillors' views if they wish to comment. Yes, Bill. Thank you very much and thank you to Brian and Shane for bringing this motion before Council and for your constructive dialogue in making sure that we had words that we were legally able to be allowed to pass. I would also thank our officers who have been working hard on this, both in terms of understanding the legal position that we are in with this investment and in looking to bring this forward for disposal. Councillor Smedley has very helpful outlines the history of this investment and how it has come from one of our predecessor Councils and at a different context of time in which it was purchased. We can't go back in time to change that decision. However, he, like I was an Opposition Councillor and said more, I was uncomfortable with his decision. I was against it, but when it's made, you move on. At the start of Somerset Council, when we took on this investment, Councillor Smedley contacted me and I did discuss with colleagues divesting from this at the earliest opportunity. Events have tragically and awfully overtaken that process because of the situation that we see in Gaza and also the ongoing situation in the West Bank. We are very, very acutely aware that many of our residents are passionately upset that Somerset Council has this in our commercial holding in that context. We are seeking to find legal routes to end this tendency. However, our advice from our lawyers at the moment is that we have no legal grounds for eviction, but we are open and will study the 70-page letter we received yesterday from Palestine Action to see whether that gives us any route forwards to legal eviction. The other alternative which we've been actively exploring and our officers have been working extremely hard on is the sale of this commercial investment. And we do have to recognise that we have legal responsibilities to get a market value for this property when it comes on to the market as well. So I'm happy to support this motion as it comes forwards to Britain now. I believe it gives us a route through to continue to look at what we are doing, which is to explore whether there is a legal route to eviction, but also to divest from this property, to sell it from our commercial property for yield. And we also need to make sure that should we be in the situation where in the future we are investing in commercial property for yield, we take into account moral and ethical considerations into any of our decision making at that point so that we don't end up in a situation where we hold an investment which a significant number of our residents feel morally uncomfortable in us holding. Just to reiterate, we do not wish to hold this tenant and this property in the long term. We are actively looking to divest of it and we are exploring whether there are any legal routes to evict the tenant and fully recognise the very passionate and legitimate concerns that have been raised with us today and over the previous weeks. And I do hope that colleagues will feel able to support this motion as it's written. Thank you. Thank you. Dave Nansa. Thank you. I too support this motion and I would like to congratulate the good work of those who contributed to it and the good speeches that have just been given by Brian Shane and Bill to give support to it. I certainly welcome that. I just briefly wish to add that I was also one of those Councillors at Somerset Western Taunton who raised strong questions about what were we doing making these commercial investments. At the time I was in a small minority but I think what I said at that time hasn't taken long to come to show. I was making some good points and I wish we'd listened to them for the investments that other district Councils have made as well. Possibly this is the worst example of what happened during that period. Now as has been said the Council should have no connection in supporting Albitz weapons manufacture in the UK and the devastation that that has caused in Gaza. We should not have got into this situation but I very much welcome what Bill has just said with regard to having a moral and an ethical guidance to decisions that we should take on and that is really important to make sure that nothing like this ever happens again. Thank you. David Fothergill. Thank you very much indeed and I welcome the debate and the motion coming forward. I think it's absolutely right that we should debate such a terrible situation in the Middle East and I think that it's right that we do it in a very grown up and mature way across this chamber because I think it enables us to represent our views in a calm atmosphere and I welcome that so thank you for that. I feel that this motion falls into two parts though and I'd just like to debate the two parts because I think debating it will help us to understand a little bit more. So the first part is about working to find ways legal ways of evicting Albitz. I'd just like to understand how that part of the motion fits with the recommendations which were approved at the property and investment executive subcommittee which were voted through and therefore do have a legal position which talks about writing to Al which requests an urgent meeting and then for the interim interim head of legal services and sectional on fight one officer to report back of the next meeting of the ancients. So how does the first part of this motion sit with those actions? And then the second part which is my bigger concern because I think that's a direction of travel which we will head in. My bigger concern is the second part which is about the ethical, I've got to bring it up now. Part of the problem here is that this motion was being rewritten till quarter past 11 this morning and I am not sure that we fully consider what the impact of that second part is. So if I have it in front of me, here we go, to ensure that moral and ethical considerations assume equal weight to financial advantage in any commercial property investments for yield. So the first part of that that I received this morning just talked about commercial investments and I was very worried about the pension scheme and wrote the leader about it and I assume that's why it's been changed. But I would still like to have legal advice, clearly legal advice, that we're not setting the policy which is hamstringing our our pensions funds. And I'd also like us to think through what the implications of setting that part of the motion are because it could have implications on other parts of Somerset Council's business. For example, we have we have business centres where we have EDF nuclear. We also own county farms where there's big debates about our farming practices. There are other examples of investments that we have which are morally and ethical debatable and I would not want us to put through a second part of a motion just because we want to make it rounded and create a situation which we then have to live within the future and to get it only a short time before this meeting and have to think through those consequences I think are wrong. So I think the first part is a direction of travel and we'll get voted through. I'm absolutely sure because of the strength of feeling but the second part I think just I just can vote for that at the moment because as a pension trustee for over 20 years as a member of the pension fund here I'm just not sure that we thought through the full implications of that and I wouldn't wanted to come back and bite this council in any way. Andy Dingle. Thank you Chair. I'd like to echo exactly what Council Father Gilles just said. The second part of here we would need to understand the specific framework by which we're going to judge moral and ethical investments beyond and what that means beyond the current scrutiny process that commercial investments undergo which you know is all we already have considerations in that area when we're making decisions. I'm also interested in understanding when we say all ways of legally evicting the leaders mentioned we were exploring that in great depth. Will we as a council see a potential financial risk report of a legal challenge? Should the tenants decide to challenge our eviction if and even when we make that? Thank you. Okay and the next P2C we'll come back. I'm more than happy to come back at this point I don't know whether it's not my motion so I'm not sure on the procedure and I think I've been named but I'm not going to get get worried about that one. So I'm kind of suggesting perceived with the debate I'm making some notes and I may wish to respond if that's acceptable to you Mr. Chairman. That's fine. P2C is next. Thank you Chairman. I'm going to set a first in the chamber I agree with the leader of the opposition. I raised these points with leadership myself. I think it's very important that we are very careful to take advice with respect to those parts of the council function which are not just the pension fund where we are actually constrained by either the conditions of monies given to us or legal provisions and in particular the pension fund is covered in such constraints as you probably know. However I won't be supporting this motion and the reason I won't be supporting this motion is because I actually think it basically slurs the people working in the premises at the moment without having the basis of evidence. We do not actually at this present know whether there is anything illegal or immoral going on in the premises and the law around property is very tightly drawn and we have to bear in mind that if we were to attempt an eviction it might well be tested against us. That would be an expensive process for both parties and indeed if we were to lose that it would be a fairly significant commitment to the expenditure which might have unknown consequences and I am concerned obviously not to get into any unlimited consequences that puts us straight into financial problems and possibly the 141. Sorry 114. So I wouldn't want to go there from a practical perspective but I am also conscious of the people working in that building include many engineers and administrators that actually live within our county and we're judging them and we're aligning them and saying that they endorse the behaviours of the Israeli government and I think the real culprit here is the political leadership of Israel and particularly the Israeli government and some of the individuals particularly I'm thinking at the West Bank which hasn't actually been recognised it is referred to as you know we're talking about occupied territories here where the position of this nation is that it's not formally the right of Israel to stomp around settlements and so on we don't recognise those as legitimate and that is where some of the immoral behaviour is taking part and also in Gaza where it's clear to me that this is not measured directed proportionate military action they are not judging the matter in the way that we would as a nation there's no way I can defend that I think that is horrid but to take people who have effectively their work in the northern part of Bristol some of whom I know live in Somerset and to associate those individuals with the Israeli government's choices please respect we are all entitled to separate opinions we don't all have to have the same opinion please tolerate the fact that I disagree with you in the same way Peter could you continue with your I just think that we're acting without evidence of wrongdoing we're acting on an emotional basis and I think this decision is premature so I'm afraid I can't support the motion yay go Rodriguez thank you chairman the concern I have around this motion is really one of principle really and also the sort of precedent it sets as well we don't know what the future may offer this council which other tenants we may have in the future if any maybe not but if any or what other tenants are doing at this very moment I think what Peter Seab said I kind of agree with as well that as far as we know they haven't conducted any illegal activity but I don't want to talk too much about them I think the principle for me is once you decide to evict a tenant because you don't like what they may be doing or what they may be saying that opens the door to doing the same to others and what concerns me is the confidence what confidence does this give to businesses when they're looking at sunset council to do business with them whether it's as a tenant or anything else do they have to think twice and think to themselves what can we or can we not say that may upset the sunset council to then to lead them to not do business with us in the future I'm very feel very uneasy about that message and the point of principle that businesses should be free to do as they wish we've been obviously legal parameters and we shouldn't dictate to them what we expect from them or what they're doing we think is wrong or right and chuck them out as a result of it but I get this as an emotional subject and I respect the opinions that that have been put forward what I don't want the businesses to get is the message of we don't like you so we'll shut you down or not do business with you that's not the way we should conduct ourselves and I had a resident just to finish off that said to me when they looked at this motion they said to me if Somerset council chucks out this business because they don't like what they're doing or they'd next be banning JK Rowling books from the libraries because we don't like what she's saying I'm not saying I agree with that but that was a message I was put to me by a resident so I shan't be voting for this motion. Mark Healy. Yes thank you Chairman I'd like to agree with my colleague over there actually what he's just said because I believe we're on very dangerous ground here seriously dangerous ground you know we're talking about evictions of companies we're talking about all sorts of things that could put this council in a very peculiar position both legally and I'll use the word morally because I have to say that we should this should be set aside this motion at the moment go through the legal process and come back when possibly colleagues or officers and lawyers are spoken to all bit all bits because I don't think they're going to go down without fight I think they're going to stun their ground and say try and get rid of us then because also if this council's not careful we're straight into very very dangerous ground and we could be accused of being undistemitic I know that's controversial I know that's controversial we're like the gentleman over there said we've all got you know we've all got our opinions so I would like to maybe make a motion that this is set aside looked out by our lawyers after being discussed with Elbit in hierarchy and come back to this council maybe at the next council meeting thank you Martin Dimery I want to go could the members of the public please let the councillors thank you mr chairman at the last meeting of this full council we passed a motion to call for a ceasefire in Gaza was that not a moral an ethical decision and when it comes to our pension we're very complicated pension arrangements in the council our pensions are tied to other councils and to a larger organization and those of us that have been willing this council to divest from oil for the last seven years have had no success whatsoever with it so I don't really think that that's a a cogent or likely argument I'm looking at the tenancy agreement here that we have it says the tenant shall not do anything on the premises this is the elbit premises which is illegal or immoral or which would cause a nuisance or any damage to the landlord or any owner or occupy or any other property you're joining or near the premises I would contend that we have had nuisance we have had damage and what may be done in the Court of International Courts would be considered by Elbit illegal thank you Sarah Sarah Wakefield thank you chair I just wanted to answer a couple of the questions have been raised the purpose of the property investment subcommittee writing to Elbit my understanding was to ask them what use they are making of the property because you can't tell whether somebody's abusing or going outside the terms of use unless you've asked them what they're actually doing there so that seems to me to be a very sensible way forward I would point I mean I am a lawyer as probably people know we you when you uh letter property you do know who the tenant is so when this property was let the person who let it to them I think was a company knew who the tenant was and should have found out who the tenant was if they didn't like it maybe should they should have put something in the lease to say you're not allowed to sell weapons to Israel if that's what they didn't like probably wouldn't have taken the lease at that point and certainly when said more council bought the premises they also knew what the tenant did at least they should have done I just wanted to take issue with what Dave Mansell said we at Somerset Western told we bought properties and there was argument about whether we should but we did it because the government said you should do this to get some more money and the other councils did the same thing because we didn't have enough money to do the provide the services we wanted to so you can't wrap all the other properties up with this one I think this one is different and I have great sympathy with other people in this room about how they feel about what's happening in the middle east I think we all do and we want it to stop immediately and we said that at our last council meeting as well my problem is also I have to say with the second part of these wording it's a question of whose morals are we talking about these are not legally defined terms illegal or immoral in a lease means having a brothel there it doesn't mean usually doesn't mean against international law for example when it talks about affecting the adjoining tenants it's because if you run a brothel from premises you're bringing the premises next door into disrepute so that is the usual meaning of it and in the letter we've received with the legal advice that our friends over there have had it talks about a test case now we in this council in our financial emergency will not we can't take a test case it's open-ended financially about what happens if you do that and very sadly I feel that I would love to throw them out tomorrow but I don't think we can do it legally I don't believe that I also don't believe in Somerset council in this area we have other people manufacturing weapons and helicopters and things like that that are used in war and we are not saying as a council that we believe all this should stop I am worried that this sort of wording slightly says that and rather I have to say in it this wording needs to be very carefully defined I can vote for any of this except the last two lines about in mathematical moral ethical considerations I think it should say to ensure that moral and ethical considerations are properly considered as well as financial advantage in any future typically we should look at those of course we should but sometimes I want our council to be commercial after all we need to look at the commercial advantage too but we would never you know but my I believe we would never let to elbitt systems we would never have done that lease we would never do it now and I'm sorry that we've got it but I I won't be able to vote in favour this I should either abstain unless you want to change the wording as I've suggested Lucy Trimnell thank you chair and as council weight filter said what I would say but far better I suppose what I would say that for me it's the principle and the precedent that could be set that concerns me and when we have a legal consideration we have set parameters when you have moral or ethical considerations there aren't any parameters it is up to the individual and I may feel completely differently to councillor Rodriguez of against about something in those terms and my concern is that we open ourselves up further and further to difficulties down the line in the decisions that we make and as you say you know in the financial situation that we're in at the moment I don't think we can afford to put ourselves in that situation michael dung thank you chair I think most of it has been said really from the benches over here but I just wanted to stress that the the tenancy agreement says any damage to the landlord nuisance or any damage to the landlord and I think this particular landlord is suffering from reputational damage and that's the big point here I think whatever the council does it was a mistake to have an asset like that which we inherited but also I think if we if we pursue a legal claim to to evict this tenant I'm not sure who's going to pay for it because it's not cheap to employ barristers and council that's just one question but I think I think we need to commit to looking into this and hopefully evicting ill bit if at all possible and if that isn't possible legally or financially because we don't have the funds and that's unfortunately an argument that enters into it at the moment then we can do the next best thing which is to sell it but unfortunately I think evicting the tenant would send out the signals that we're not happy with what our tenant is involved in they may not be making anything on the premises but admin is the same thing as Shane Collins has pointed out thank you Caroline now this is chairman the point of order can we just check the facts that were asserted there does the lease actually say it's damaged to the landlord it will take me a few minutes to look that up but I will look that up okay if we move on to Caroline Eilis please cute chair I wasn't gonna say anything I was hoping that you know we would all unite around it I still hope that as many of us as possible will unite around Councillor Smedley and Councillor Collins motion because I think it does express something very powerful and we as Somerset said we put the heart back into Somerset we have values we're supposed to have values as politicians and they don't stop at the boundaries of Somerset and what everyone has got to bear in mind this is a very unusual situation this is a probable genocide we have we are letting property to accompany that is integral to a probable genocide I don't quite get what the probable bit is to me it would be a bit more clear cut than that this is a really unusual situation I think in the light of that we that's why we need to reaffirm the second bit of the motion we do need to reaffirm our belief that moral and ethical considerations do factor into any letting of any property commercial or otherwise people out there need to know that they need to know what kind of a council we are we do have values and we do care about what happens not just to our own children but children over the other side of the world this is a probable genocide thank you man did you go thank you very much chair we've heard some powerful debate today but I will come back to the property investments executive subcommittee there was a course of action there which I absolutely supported we are looking for some clarification on what the situation is we do not want to put this council at huge financial risk and actually probably the only time ever I agree with it much of what council wait for said just now so doesn't happen often but it has happened today I want to know that if this motion falls I'd like some reassurance that those actions that were outlined in the property and investments executive subcommittee still take place I feel they're the right way forward and I'd just like confirmation that that is the case please chair this nation thank you chair if you may just indulge me a few moments please I would like to read out those agreed actions that came from the subcommittee on Monday the 15th of April so with apologies to those who were in the room and have heard this already apologies as well to all members who received this by email from democratic services so the executive subcommittee tasks officers with the following one that the service director strategic asset management right to Elbit UK requesting an urgent meeting to discuss and clarify the current and future use of their premises at Aztec West and report back to the next meeting of the subcommittee following that meeting I would hope that all councillors would support that and secondly that the interim head of legal services and the section 151 officer report to the next meeting of the subcommittee on the potential options available to the council as landlord of the office building at 600 Aztec West in the light of the recent public concerns and protests and with the risks and benefits attached to each of those options including a the implications if any for the financial stability of Somerset council and be the opinions of the section 151 officer the monitoring officer and the external auditor I believe that those recommendations that were approved unanimously are assigned today as they were on Monday the 15th of April I do not believe that the motion we are looking at today is exclusive of those recommendations it is phrased differently I believe there is more emotion in the room today but there are more members in the room that subcommittee was just four members I think we have to bear in mind as has been mentioned already that an open ended financial implication could cause our section 151 officer to call a section 114 notice immediately we took a decision in the budget setting of the first year to not invest in further commercial investments we took a decision in budget setting of February well actually that was taken by executive in November but it was repeated in budget setting in February of this year that we dispose of commercial investments and we did that in order to gain government support for the exceptional financial support we needed through a capitalization direction in order to set a legal budget for 24-25 we also need in my view chair time for the interim head of legal to spend proper time on the 70 pages that were only received yesterday and I hope that we can find some way to enable those opinions of the 151 officer the monitoring officer the interim head of legal services and the external auditor to come forward so that this council is fully and correctly informed so I'm not saying I'm not saying I support or don't support I'm just saying that we need we are in a fragile financial position I will be the first to say that because that is my responsibility to say it and what we decide must always take that into account kind of the chair thank you very much Stephen Page I use having problems with the microphone yeah so that was speaker but yeah I just make a a brief comment because I think people have made some very good points on both sides but I think there's a time when you have to stand up for what you believe in there's a famous quote along the lines of that evil happens when good people do nothing and I think Somerset council should stand up and make a moral decision about this and I strongly support the motion thank you okay Stephen can I welcome you to your first council meeting moving on Graham Oaks please thank you chair my intention when I read the latest version of this motion was to support it for all the obvious reasons the proposed have managed to persuade me that I was wrong and I'll explain why firstly the first part of the motion and the talk about should we be getting rid of the the building the Albert bill well the government is very keen on of us to get rid of all our commercial investments including the good ones so it's a logic to getting rid of one that's a bad one one that mistakenly was in my view was purchased by a district council with a particular tenant I do not have some of the concerns of some of the people about people involved in military items I grew up in Yoval you know we made spit files that kind of make kept this country free and we made helicopters since and only recently I witnessed one of them land on a football pitch where one of our supporters was very ill but I'm also aware that our helicopters are used in other ways and I think it'd be a bit of a hypocrite if I said I don't want Westlands the anatos whatever to make helicopters because I don't now the first part of the motion I'm happy to support the second part I thought was narrower but but it was very clear that actually it's a attempt to create an ethical investment policy for this council now Tony Lock and I have argued for years about the pensions and this can I tell you I used to be chair of a big pension fund Devon County Council one it was massive had a great time and we were given legal advice that said you have a choice if you wish to use this money you can use it for ethical investment well ethical disinvestment and that'll make you feel good but you won't achieve anything or you can do corporate governance and we use corporate governance we use our shareholding against British gas if you remember the bonus scandal and against Southwest water and others and we actively tried to improve the situation so I do not support a policy where people make themselves feel better but don't change the situation and that's my view of ethical disinvestment I think the people who support it I think they're wrong but that's the second half of this motion I would happily vote for it if we could remove the last however many words it was about the investment policy because today I actually believe that the people who've turned up are concerned about one issue and one horrific situation and aren't actually overly interested in where we go forward with other investments that were to whether we upset the NFU or the RSPCA or whatever else that can and will come later so I think the motion is stretched too far and certainly if it was split into house I could vote two different ways if it could be shortened then I'd happily support it thank you Mike Rigby thank you chair we've heard from a few members today about the problem with perhaps confusing all defense manufacturing as being in the firing line here it isn't it's a false comparison trying to equate Elbit with other Somerset defense manufacturers in my view I'm not aware that the UK is allowing the parents and five weapons to any other countries held by the ICJ to be plausibly committing genocide that's the key here I don't agree with council he leaves view that we should take legal advice we've received free of charge legal advice penned by the former president of the supreme court and six hundred other lawyers in which they advise that the UK government risks breaching international law in continuing to allow the supply of weapons from the UK to Israel I'm persuaded by that legal opinion I'm very concerned that we as a council in facilitating Elbit's activities may also be in the same legal jeopardy that Baroness Hale holds the government potentially to be in and turning to the motion itself the second part which seems to have caused a bit of excitement refers specifically to future commercial property investments for yield it doesn't talk about the pension fund does it it's about commercial property investments the pension issues of red herring and I think just finally on that particular issue given where we are with our commercial property investments who in this room genuinely thinks we're going to be going out into the market to invest in future properties for yield it's not going to happen is it so it's a bit of a red herring trying to to oppose this motion on that basis in my view so for those reasons I will be voting for the motion Mike Stanton thank you chair I'd echo a lot of the comments made by by by Liz about finances and that my rupees just made and and also those of Sarah Wakefield although on on that point it seems to me although the words she proposes which are to replace assume people wait with as properly are properly considered as well as I think her words would be slightly better if the proposes of the motion wanted to accept that um but um we may not find a legal basis for addiction that that's the way the motion is worded that allows the possibility that we may not find one but if we do we should use it um the point I want to concentrate on is that a lot of the arguments that have been advanced for not supporting all of this motion are slippery slope arguments or thin end of the wedge arguments you know if we do this it will start a progress towards something else those arguments are almost never valid because we're free in a democratic society to make a decision each step of the way and if we decide at a certain particular step to do X that doesn't prevent us deciding if next time there's a similarish decision to say why so I always reject those kinds of arguments if you look at this particular one there are two issues here first um subsection is about weapons and and elbit and the second is about moral and ethical versus financial well on weapons and weapons just delivery systems i mean Graham has made the point that we have plenty of companies in Somerset that produce weapons and delivery systems when we're talking about sending them to Ukraine we tend to support that I certainly do um when we're talking about if we were being asked to support sending them to the Israel Defense Force we wouldn't support it I certainly wouldn't so you know we make a decision on on each time that this comes up so if you then look at the moral and ethical considerations we all have those from time to time for instance I run my own pension fund I have to decide whether I invest in tobacco companies or not and whether I invest in in military companies or not the pension fund can make those decisions for itself as well that the emotion doesn't prevent it so I'm gonna support the motion for the reasons I've just outlined we can decide each situation on its merits and the merits of the current situation in Palestine are clearly that something but really bad things are being done they were started by Hamas they may be made far worse by Israel government uh and we should be making it very clear that we don't in any way condone or support that and we'll do everything we can uh tiny bit given that we're uh Somerset Council uh the tiny bit we can to contribute towards getting the Israeli government to move in the right direction thanks before we move down the list of cancers can I just come back to Jill on the legal point just to clarify this chair the clause of the lease is 12.3 restrictions on use so that's restrictions on use of the premises and 12.3.2 reads the tenant shall not do anything on the premises which is illegal or immoral or which would cause a nuisance or any damage to the landlord or any owner or occupier of any other property adjoining or near the premises so the nuisance or damage that clause refers to is linked to the use of those premises and to buildings and properties nearby so it's not a general clause it would not be interpreted in that way thank you Simon car as well thank you chair um I don't normally speak at meetings and when I do I'm normally flippant but I'm going to be passionate about this I'm afraid I totally support the resolutions we have got to show as a council that we are not going to be the same as our government in not taking the lead by abstaining or voting against UN resolutions and towing the American mind financial considerations are important but they shouldn't make a difference this is genocide and we should be making a stand in the second world war if Bosch Siemens had been in that premises I have no doubt we'd be debating the same financial implications and erring on the side of maybe we should or maybe we shouldn't make a make a statement we should be supporting this and I think just to say as well there are more than two wars going on there's genocide happening in Sudan there are British weapons killing people in Yemen and we shouldn't forget that as well just because it's not in Europe or on our doorstep but I will be fully supporting the motion I hope that everybody else will do too John Hunt yeah thank you chair I won't say what everybody else has already said it seems to me we are not as one on this although in the majority are for the motion I too am for the motion but the first part only I'm very concerned about the second part and I'm just wondering whether or not we could ask councilors mentally to perhaps either delete that or make the changes which I did agree but can't remember from Councillor Wakefield so whether or not we could add hers as an adjustment to this and whether the Councillor's Councillor Smedley and Collins would agree to that I most certainly would vote for this if it were just the top section exploring a way of legally evicting over the UK thank you chair. Bentay you're next those with fighting and arguing with scrupulous landlords that are renting out horrible flats to people who can hardly afford to be there and they are getting ill like I am being ill now in sitting in this air condition I want want to say that I feel so terrible sad for the Palestinian people they were sold in 1948 and it has been nothing but down the hill ever since I would like us to do something rapidly but not by becoming just as bad as landlord as those that I am fighting in shipton mallet therefore I will suggest that we all get hold of an MP and tell the MP to go back to London and then make sure that the prime minister will not just be quiet but would actually put his his signature where it counts I will gladly vote for the first part but I will not give a ruin the council here by saying they should become a bad landlord so I will not do that but I will vote for the first part and I will gladly do it because there's nothing wrong with my history upbringing. Dixie dutch thank you in a way Councillor Hunt has stolen my thunder I was going to say that if Councillor Wakefield wanted to I don't know if she can do an amendment or if we need to go to the proposals I'd be happy to kind of second that I will support this motion whatever but I really do understand members' concerns about the safety of our council I think that's like a really you know the financial security like looking forward I think that's an important issue as well so if we could tighten up that wording I would be happier thank you Tom Deacon may I raise a point of order please sorry I'm a little reluctant to do so but I was named earlier and I believe incorrectly and I do I would just like to correct the record if I may okay I'll allow you if Tom if you could just hang fire for a second okay it's not the most important thing that's being said to today by anybody but an awful long way but it was said with regard to commercial investments that this was something that the government encouraged I do recall at Somerset Western Taunton that I proposed we reviewed I questioned the investments many times and at one point I said we should review what we were doing here and that was at a time when we had very strong messages from government that they did not want us to do this and in fact they threatened us if we continued we were going to have access to the public words blood loan board removed this was discussed at Somerset Western Taunton to my regret the council continued with the investments which I think was wrong if I may I'd pray very briefly it's been a good debate good points made I do think a number of red herrings have been raised the motion has been carefully worded and is worthy of support thank you thank you Tom Deacon thank you very much Chair I have to say I've gone from side to side through the debate so I just thank all members for making such valid points I think on both sides I'm on balance I'll be supporting the motion as is printed I just wanted to pick up a couple of the points that I've heard made firstly on employees who work for a little bit I'm afraid if you don't know what your employer is doing even if it's not in the office way you're based then you should be more aware of the organization that you're working for so I don't quite it's that it's those individuals choice to work for that organization I respect that that's their choice but to claim that they're not therefore associated with the actions of the organization they work for I think is is wrong actually you should be aware of the action that the organization you're working for it's taking um with regards to the the moral and ethical considerations um of course with any moral and ethical consideration there's an element of judgment there always has been and there always will be because that's where those issues sit they don't sit as black or white they sit in that gray area and different people sit in different places on the scale but I think the way that the organization reflects those morals and ethics is through the democratic process that we're all part of actually so we're elected to be here to be a voice to demonstrate our morals and ethics that we hold as individuals and as a collective and over time and through society that changes and that moves and that moves around of course it does I don't think what the motion does at prescripts us actually because by their very nature morals and ethics move around and our role as Democratic elected members have an opportunity to have a voice in what we think they should be for our organization so don't quite subscribe to that argument I'm afraid I think it picks up a larger point though about from how I say I think for too long our society has seen too many people willing to make money regardless of the impact it has on our society at home or abroad actually that's the fundamental point here and we should be taking a stand as a council here where we have a voice saying actually we don't want to look at making money in that way we want to make sure that we are looking very very carefully at the impact of the decisions we make both here in Somerset and Widerfield and that's why I'll be supporting the election. Mark and Spar. Yeah thank you Chair. I am I think Councillor Deakin does make some valid points I have sway from side to side but my question is if this company was making drones or whatever it is for the British government and we were losing them against Ukraine or or any other thing in the future because we don't know what the future is going to be but we I think the world is on tender hooks at the moment and we might need this company in future to help us with no no no with with conflicts that may come ahead of us so my question is if this company was making weapons for our UK government to news against for our benefit to defend this great country of ours would we all be shouting this screaming and saying no no no no no no no no the other point I want to make no no the only if you let him speak please the other point I want to make is Somerset Council actually own Jaguar Land Rover in Concord Way is stocked on a T's now if just to stop oil turned up it said we want you to sell that because that's not morally right would we be setting that building and that's the question we have to ask. Okay Dave Wern. Thank you Chair. I've listened to the debate around the room some really good perspectives being discussed in this highly emotive discussion for this motion but I propose that we either reword the motion or exclude the second part of the motion right here and now or if we're unable to do that here and now to defer the motion until discussions are exhausted with Elbit. It goes without saying that genocide and war crimes are abhorrent and what is going on in Gaza must stop right now and the perpetrators need to be brought to book but Somerset Council needs to establish a legal basis on which to evict probable in inverted commas in respect to what may or may not go on inside 600 Aztec West is not a legal basis and trying to evict on less than unimpeachable legal basis opens Somerset Council up to all manner of unintended consequences not least legal and financial where open-ended challenge from Elbit and possibly the Israeli government and the security of jobs across Somerset if we if we evict just because we don't like the tenant this will open up a dangerous precedent for the financial and economic stability of Somerset Council for many years to come so I'm not going to vote for the motion in its current format and would recommend either exclusion of the second part or an amendment to ensure that we evict on 100% legal grounds. Okay, I've got one more speaker as in Habib, I'll take Habib and then we'll address other points. Oh, sorry Bill. I think we're going to come back to me after Habib with that. Okay, okay. Thank you, Mr Chairman. I do concur with Councillors Rigby and Carswell and happy to support the motion as it is. All human life is precious and should be protected from evil of wool. Our rights, regardless of race, color, religion, language and sex have to be protected by all governments. Over six months has gone by since the tragedy on October 7th and we have all witnessed horrendous act of unequal massacre with more than 34,000 people dead with the majority of them children and women including under 80,000 people that have been wounded according to the health authorities in Gaza, the highest number in any global conflict in the last 30 years. Behind these figures are real people with hope for a better, more secure and prosperous future. There were clearly no plans to protect the civilians when Israel went into Gaza. On 9th of April this year, the Foreign Minister David Cameron stated that UK would not suspend arms to Israel, in light of latest genocide in Gaza. We need the central government to commit to ending these arms licenses so that we are not complicit this war, crime. May I therefore request that Somerset cancel through the leader, rush the government requesting that UK reports export licenses to Israel to use in Gaza till peace prevails. We have to work towards peace and normalization of life in the holiest place on earth for the sake of humanity. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Thank you. I go back to Bill for a point of explanation, please. Thank you, Chair, and I just want to thank members, first of all, for the high quality of debate throughout. There have been some really interesting and thoughtful points raised, and I do appreciate members' contributions to our deliberations here. Just to address a couple of points that have been raised, it has been suggested that there is a mismatch between the first points about exploring all ways of legally evicting Elbit and the decisions made by the executive subcommittee last week. I don't see that contradiction myself. I see the decisions that were made by the executive subcommittee as one of the steps you would take in exploring whether there are legal ways to pursue the eviction routes. The advice we have at the moment is that that route is unlikely to be successful, or it would be at best dubious as to whether it would work, and that's where the potential risk of expense does come, which is why there is the otherwise seek to sell, because that is a potentially financially difficult route to take. So that word is 'explore'. We are exploring whether that route is possible legally, and we need to give our officers time to take in the advice that has been submitted to take into advice. The opinion that Council regularly referred to earlier, and just make sure that there are or are not legal grounds to pursue that route. In terms of the second section, which is around the moral and ethical considerations, I would ask if the proposal and seconder would kindly consider Councillor Wakefield's alternative wording there, which I think does just help clarify that point. We do need, should we be in the position of making future commercial property investments for yield, we would want to make moral and ethical considerations as part of that decision-making process. I think the wording that she suggested to ensure that moral and ethical considerations are properly considered in any future commercial property investment field, clarify the point which I think the proposal and seconder are trying to make. Yes, there would need to be a further developed policy on that. Yes, that would need to be proper scrutiny of that policy. That's not the job for full Council, that's the job for the appropriate scrutiny committee and for the executive subcommittee to then go into. To say that we should not make moral and ethical considerations in our decision-making, it's incredibly troubling. For me, moral and ethical considerations should be first and foremost in the decisions that we take here at Somerset Council. I was thinking about whether it was necessary to add in the words from the recommendations from the Executive Subcommittee. I don't believe it necessarily is because I believe that the word 'explore' covers that because those are actions that you would take if you were exploring the option of evicting Elbit. It is a course of action that I would prefer but I do not believe that it may necessarily be the easiest process for us to go through. I remain absolutely determined that we will find a way that this Council disassociates itself from this company and its sales of equipment that is facilitating the situation in Gaza as it stands at the moment. I will continue to support the motion but I would respectfully ask the proposed and seconder to take on board the amended wording. There has been a no-sera earlier on with Dixie. I think you seconded proposal. I would like to go back to the proposal of the motion to get his views on what has just been said and I know you are considering it at the moment. Chair, they are considering their position. Could they just ask for clarity over the proposed and revised wording from the Council. Can we go back to Sarah, please? Yes, sorry. When I was speaking out, I was just making it up as I went along. I got something slightly. I want to say this to ensure that moral and ethical considerations are fully appraised in addition to financial advantage in any future commercial property investments for yield. Obviously, I think that's really important. I want to vote in favour of this and if we change it in this way, I will be able to. I'm simply saying that I don't want us to be tied up in something that will cause problems in the future. Otherwise, I totally support what we're doing and what we're trying to do. So, to ensure that moral and ethical considerations are fully appraised in addition to financial advantage in any future commercial property investments for yield. Basically, taking them into account is what we're saying. You can say, oh, fully taken into account if you've heard that, in addition to financial advantage. Okay, that's fine. Can I go back, please, together? So, I think people have quite missed the point. Although, you can somebody easily earlier on, we're not telling you how to think morally, we're asking that that is what you do anyway. As part of your role as a Councillor, you look at the morals and you make a judgment yourself. And therefore, I wouldn't want this to fall on that. What I think is a slight difference. So, we would accept those wording, if that helps. Okay, but the key thing is this. The Executive Subcommittee is going through a process which is not in conflict with this motion. The first part, which looks at how to evict, albeit obviously, looks at how to do it through legal means and all that. And that shouldn't be contentious. And the final bit does mean, not as a Councillor there, so that business can do what they like, but that they're restrained by moral concerns and that we make that judgment, but that's a factor in our judgment in future. That's all we're saying. We'll accept those words from over there. And I'd ask people to support this, please. Okay, we now have the accepted wording added to the motion. Do you wish to say anything else before we move to the vote? Is everybody clear now on what we're voting for? Brian, can you sum it up, please? We've voted for the words, as said, in the motion that has been circulated with the additional that I think Councillor Wakefield put in that separate phrase. What did you say? Yeah, that bit that. I haven't got it written down in full detail, but I feel it. Okay, I can say it's Sarah. I think we can read the motion out from here if I ask Scott to do that. So the full motion is as written apart from the second part or the second element, which is amended to now say to ensure that moral and ethical considerations are fully appraised in addition to financial advantage in any future commercial property investments for yield. Okay, those are the wordings. Is that okay with you, Shane, as well? Okay, that is the motion that's been put. And I now wish to go to the vote. So can I have a show of hands, please? All those in favour? Any against? And are there any abstentions? So the motion is carried. Thank you very much. Yeah, yeah. Thank you very much. I'm going to have an adjournment now. So the members of the public that want to leave have, and I thank them for their attendance, and also a comfort break for our Councillors. Thank you. I've got a couple of announcements, but first of all, the schedule of myself and the vice chairman's visits are in the document. If anybody wants to know any about it, please come and ask me or the vice chairman would be grateful to give you the information. Today, the Somerset Council's health team were here offering the blood tests, and hopefully a lot of people took the opportunity to find out how high their blood pressure was. You're shaking your head, David. Yes, I know. This is a part of a wider campaign called Take the Pressure Off. And it's a collaborative initiative with the NHS Somerset, aiming to find people in Somerset that have a high blood pressure and aren't aware. One in three people in Somerset have high blood pressure and do not know they have it. Over 50% of heart attacks and strokes are caused by high blood pressure. This is really important campaign, which the public health team would love you to support. You have a bag which we're all given with information about the campaign on your seats when you arrived. Please promote this work through your networks and let us know if we can help out on the situation at all. So thanks to them for coming today. I have my blood pressure taken, and amazingly, when I talked about this today's meeting, the blood pressure went up. Okay, moving on from there, we have to reflect on two members of past councils that have passed away. The first is Ellen Woods. Ellen was born on the 2nd of April 1923, and she was over 100 years of age when she passed away on the 28th December, 2023. Ellen first stood for Watchet Urban District Council in a by-election in 1967 and was elected to the Urban District Council and then to watch its town council and subsequently to West Somerset District Council. Ellen was the first lady chair for the West Somerset District Council and served in that role for two terms, as she did with Watchet Town Council. Ellen received the MBE for services to a community on in December 1982 and made an honoree Olderman for the district west of Somerset on the 15th of May 2002. The other member is Tony Bevan. Tony was born in December 1931 and passed away on the 6th of February 2024 at the age of 92 years. Tony was a conservative Taunton Dean Berra council from 2003 to 2007. He was elected along with Joanna Lewin Harris for Bishop's Lydia. His son, who has joined us today on teams, said he was passionate about his council work in Taunton, met many people there, and many made many friends. Could we stand please for a moment of silence? Thank you. a lot of you. you a lot of you. a lot of you. a lot of you. a lot of you. a lot of you. a lot of you. a lot of you. the flags that our offices were flown at half miles today as a mark of respect. I'd now like to open up for any cancer that wish to add to the tributes. Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Eileen Woods was a no-nonsense midlander who served the community of watches and why the west Somerset for decades. I first served with her when I was elected to west Somerset in 1987. She was immensely kind and encouraging not only to younger members but also to junior officers building their careers in local government. She liked to announce and her voice could certainly carry that I was her toy boy which by the time she was 100 and I was 61 was increasingly unlikely if flattering. The reality though was that she was a deeply serious and effective advocate for her community and was not so much a politician as a stateswoman. She remained entirely interested and engaged pretty much to the end. As you say she was made an honorary alderman of west Somerset in 2002 and had she lived a few weeks longer she would have become an honorary alderman of this authority as well. Eileen Woods was much loved, admired and respected and her vast experience will be truly missed. Thank you very much. Is there anybody else that wishes to add to it either? Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A few words on on on Tony Bevin, much of which I gained from speaking and listening to his son. Tony in his early years joined the army, passed out through Sandhurst and became an officer with Remy. He had several postings in Europe before going on to the Far East where he spent much of his service and spent it with his first wife. There were more to follow. It is there in Singapore in his spare time that he took up broadcasting on local radio and recognised as an excellent rack on tour. A lead into life as a politician later. Tony had many talents, an actor, an organizer, playing at the Singapore City Theatre. He was also a good musician, composed and is working life with the engineering side of things. He loved finding neat engineering productions. On evening the service he came back to this country was involved in businesses successfully. Before he eventually retired to the sunny climbs at the foothills of the contacts. It was there as a district cancer for Bevin, that I first of all met him. And by this time of course he was already involved with the local theatre in Taunton and was part acting for TV productions as a fine, upstanding British gentleman. Tony was kind and considerate, thoughtful. He brought joy in a smile with him wherever he went. He was respected by those he helped out and all those that he met. Sadly he's missed now but leaves this world a better place for us having been here. Tony certainly lived a full and amazing life. Thank you Ross Henley. Thank you very much. I'd like to raise to say a few comments about Tony Bevin. Tony Bevin was a conservative, not of the same party as I, but during my time as a leader, a leader of the opposition of Tauntoni by a council. I found him a very wise council. He never had any political side. Yes, he was a conservative and he had a really great sense of civic duty and he did an awful lot for the area that he represented and he helped out the council with a really deep, difficult, long-standing issue shall I say which he, I think he brought to a conclusion which had been rumbling on causing problems for years. Tony did share with me some wonderful stories regarding his acting career and extra career. One of my favorites was the fact that he was a stormtrooper on one of the original Star Wars films and he told me the story he said he was in the queue as they do outside where they're waiting for the food van and everything and they got their helmets off and one of them turned around and said to Tony my god this is absolute rubbish tribal worker this time. This is actually going to bomb isn't it? Can you believe Alec Guinness is actually taking a percentage of this move if you're not taking a wage? He's done his money. Of course none of them realized what they were actually working on was so fantastic and he also taught me a wonderful story about when he was actually sat next to Uma Thurman in makeup which I won't repeat. It was very very funny, a lovely guy and I last bumped into him and I took my father into Musgrove during Covid and bumped into the lift and we had a nice little catch up there and it was a really nice guy and I really enjoyed my time with him on the council and I know lots of other people did need an awful lot from the community you've represented. Thank you Ross. I think that's all the hands so we would now move on to item six on the agenda which is report of the leader and executive comes under and Liz Laisian and this is the medium term financial strategy. Thank you very much Chair. I'm really glad this afternoon to hear a councilor's leading really long and full lives and I'm also really glad they did the blood pressure monitoring today not in February at full council when we set the budget because I would not have got green in February. So this paper was considered and endorsed at the executive meeting earlier this month. It is unusual for a medium term financial strategy to be brought forward to full council this early in the financial year but these are unusual times in Somerset and in other council areas across the country. It is essential that we keep up the pace in order to avoid a section 114 notice. So as an administration we have many concerns at this time early in the new financial year. We do not yet have the out term for 23-24 and we realise that there is a mighty task ahead to both prepare the out term paper and then the statement of accounts for this first year of Somerset council and indeed the first year on Microsoft Dynamics. We need to pay particular attention to our ability to deliver the savings in the current year's budget or find other savings to replace any that cannot be achieved. Dedicated schools grant with the accumulated deficit in the high needs block is a huge concern as it is with most upper tier councils. We must understand the pace of the wider and deeper transformation of the new council that has superseded the one Somerset business case and of course inflation and interest rates will be critical factors as will global and national factors including the date of the next general election. It's worth pointing out chair that now we show the government grants on a line-by-line basis on the income side of our budget. We need to be aware that if we wish to use percentages of budget for areas of expenditure for instance for social care we need to be sure we use formats that allow comparison with previous years. The county council network which includes many unitary councils despite its name, quotes two-thirds of their councils expenditure being on adults and children services that is at least the case in Somerset. We need residents and parish town and city councils to understand that scale of expenditure in each settlement in our county. We must better understand that the majority of our expenditure is spent on Somerset's people. It is not a separate cohort of residents who need the services of this council. So as an example in a settlement with a population of 10,000 on average and these are average and therefore approximate figures, Somerset Council will spend 6.6 million pounds this year on services for adults and children. That's a settlement of 10,000 residents of all ages and we know that those figures grow every year. In a settlement of just 1,000 residents which would obviously be a village, that figure would be on average 661,000 pounds per annum. In a settlement of 50,000, so a good-sized town in Somerset, the figure would be on that, well it will be, it's not would be, it will be because we're in the year now as an average just over 33 million pounds per year every year and growing. So I undertake to explore further examples of average annual expenditure across the county of Somerset in order to give residents and businesses more information on how this council spends the council tax they pay. As well as that work we should look back at some of the workload of the last year at audit committee's huge achievement in approving 10 sets of accounts with the final set of accounts delegated to the chair and the 151 officer to approve. Our request for capitalisation direction with understanding that the government time frame does not match the time frame of a council's budget setting which you may recall that from February we are still waiting for government's confirmation for the current financial year 24/25. Our section 151 officers appendix five on this paper called section 151 assessment of current financial position is critically important to the future of this council. How that opinion is reviewed and updated as we move through the coming months will give us assurance or not. I wish to extend my thanks to all the finance team who have moved from budget setting to these papers for the medium term financial strategy in a very short timescale. Thank you very much Chair. Thank you we move now to the leader who is seconding the proposal. Confirm I'm happy to second and reserve my right to speak later in the debate. Thank you Chair. I will open it up now to all members. Anyone wish to comment? Give myself. Thank you for the report which I have read with interest and do appreciate the difficulties it is trying to address. Firstly I think there may be a mistake or I'm misunderstanding it. On the version of the papers that I have got 2.1, the first paragraph, it refers to the HRA. I think it is actually meaning to refer to the medium term financial strategy and something in a burden as crept in or maybe I'm misdoing it but we did the HRA last time I think. In an earlier version there was an incorrect title which has now been changed. So apologies you're right there was an incorrect title on one of the headings in an earlier version so it's certainly not the HRA. That dates from February's budget setting. Okay if you want to continue. If I may thank you. I thought that must be the case but thank you. So yes I would also like to say on what is the substance of the paper which is asking full council to approve the medium term financial strategy. As I've said before and I'm not going to go into any detail now I do have concerns about the transformation program and where we may end up. To me it looks like we want an uncertain path with that. I do accept that there's not much option but that but I would like clear involvement I guess of members and where this goes. I do note that this strategy has not been considered by a scrutiny committee. I note that the risk of 114 is still very high. As I say I accept there's not a good way forward and a way forward has to be found. I do have some doubts about sort of giving permission as it seems to do all necessary actions to avoid the 114 but while also accepting as I say that there isn't a good way forward but I just wish to make those observations partly to explain how I may vote. Thank you. Thank you. Mike Hewson. Thanks Chair. I just wanted to say thank you to the finance team and formally record my thanks for the work that they put in this year on the statements of accounts and the various audits that we've been through. I know members will be bored of me saying this but literally the team has been ground into the dust. In fact I don't think we did Jason's here today so hopefully we've not ground him too far into the dust. It has been an exceptional amount of work for the finance team to get through and I would like to formally record my thanks to both Jason and Nikki Hicks and all of the team that work with them. Mandy Chilko. Thank you very much Chair and I echo those thanks to the finance team and I think the past year is one never to be repeated with the amount and the number of accounts that have come through and I think it's a real accolade actually that so many of our accounts have been signed off so we stand out amongst a small number of accounts that are in that position and that's really important because we need that to come into the new council so we can set our baselines. So that's the good news. I suppose the bad news is my blood pressure certainly hasn't dropped and when I read the paper and the actions that in place I still have no assurance so I have a couple of questions please. The first one the statement on page 41 of the report states that this council is operating as if a 114 is in place and we've heard that sort of fairly consistently for the last few months so just some clarification please later in the paper on page 103 it outlines the process of 114 and is it in it says under a 114 there would be a prohibition on all new agreements and the all non-statutory expenditure would be cut so my first question is can you confirm that this council has a prohibition on all new agreements and that all non-statutory expenditure has been cut if in fact we are following the process of 114. Thank you that's the first question. Liz did you want to reply? Yeah your natures chair there's nobody sat behind me today but we do have chief executive in the room and it is a fair point that a real section 114 notice would be different and certainly the leader of council discussing with other leaders of councils that do have a section 114 would be able to tell us that it is indeed even less pleasant more difficult we do have the section 151 officer joining us remotely and it it may well be helpful chair if we could bring him in or the chief executive to explain where we are able to operate as if we have a 114 and where we don't. Jason from a desert island somewhere. Good afternoon councillors apologies I've done something to my back and can't drive so apologies for not being there in person today and in terms of issuing the section 114 it's actually for a very short period the 114 is in place so it is that period where I make the judgment that the council is about to run out of money and not able to balance his books and live within its means as it were and you issue the section 114 notice that puts an immediate stop on any non-essential spend or entering into any new contracts that aren't structurally required that's only for a period until four council meets which must be within 21 days so that that's that's what the section appendix five paper is referring to that process between issuing the 114 and four council meeting to consider the issue then agree an action plan in terms of the things that are in place as set out in the paper there are three control boards in place they have been in place for a number of months to limit our spend we are still spending money on discretionary items so hopefully that's a helpful clarification in terms of how that section what one four part works. Mandy thank you I'm just really keen that we're very clear with our electorate in that we are not fully operating as if we had a one one four in place I keep hearing it but when you actually hear of the process that we go through or you could go through if we're faced with that we have not fully followed that process so I just wanted to make that very clear for everybody in the room so my next question is the papers present a plan that includes cuts massive reductions in services and staff numbers combined with large increases in council tax as well as increased fees and charges all of which will impact the residents of Somerset but given all of all of that the lower end of what can be achieved within this plan is a reduction in that budget of 47 million that's in the papers against a predicted budget gap of 103 million which is also in the papers and that's if all of that lower estimated figures is there and achievable and delivered so in the event that the 103 million is not found what happens next with regard to this plan thank you chair thank you back to Liz and thank you I'd just like to make the first point that council tax has gone up by the maximum allowed up to the cap as it did for the last few years under the previous administration so going up by the maximum allowed by government without a referendum is not new for this year it's not new from last year it's not new from the previous few years before that it is a huge gap absolutely massive gap I don't think anyone would deny that anybody working for the council who comes up against the control boards from what I hear from them they find it as if we had a section 114 notice in place so there is concern from people about how difficult it is to get expenditure through the control boards there's concern about loss of interim positions where we may actually have people acting as interim who are essential to the running of the council so all of those things have to be considered we are using one off resources in this year to set this budget and for me that is top of the risk table in this year because using reserves everyone knows that you only do it once using a capitalization direction if we're able to avoid additional borrowing that's good because that additional borrow is pwlb rate plus 1 percent but it does require us to sell assets and that is the council's property assets land and property and also commercial investments so we've discussed commercial investment one of them at length this afternoon those commercial investments were purchased to be a long-term investment we're now looking to sell them at a time when the market is deflated and i don't think anybody would want to do that there may be the one asset where we wish to take one possibly two where we would wish to take action the rest i think those people particularly those who were in the four district councils because they all invested in commercial property for yield i think all of those cancers who took those decisions would much rather that those investments remained as long-term investments however we are in this position we have rehearsed endlessly about the low council tax base the low council tax rate because of historic decisions where it was set low in 1993 and we had six years of council tax freeze where councils like door set did not and we are now in a position that builds on the unhappiness that we saw in 2017-18 when this council was also in a very difficult financial position and those of us who were county councillors at the time will remember it well i actually think itself some benefit to me as a lead member that i was here and saw that those of us who were also district councillors are probably really missing the ability we had as district councillors to agree more services and more projects for the good of the people of Somerset however my colleague councillor roswike has her paper later in this agenda and if anyone hasn't read it they should read it because that is how we are delivering priorities in Somerset and that through economic development that is how we can create a better future for people some particularly young people where we need to keep them in our county and not continue to be it's a bit of an unpleasant phrase but a net exporter of young people which Somerset has been for a long time i cannot remember how many years in my job i sat saying one of the problems for Somerset is a lack of employment opportunities a lack of a university in Somerset we need to take actions to put that right and to make the change it is going to be incredibly demanding nobody presumes that we can get through this situation this year without a section 114 notice and that is why our section 151 officer will be reporting regularly to the executive to which all members are invited on the status of the council as we go through the months this summer thank you chair thank you yes mandy back to you thank you i'll probably ask the question again actually so i heard all of that i wasn't sure i heard a response so the lower amount in this paper we got before us today talks about 47 million achievable that's the lower end we've got a budget gap of 103 million what happens if that 103 million isn't found what happens next i'm really concerned that there's some plans here that have a huge differential in the figures that you're hoping to achieve savings wise what i'm not seeing anywhere is in the event that that doesn't happen the higher end of those figures is not achieved what happens next for this council i suppose i'm looking for a plan b uh i'd be really interested to see whether the chief executive or the 151 officer comes in at this stage i think we have a plan i think it is a plan a my concern is that a plan b would lie with government commissioners and that is where we do not want to go we don't want to pay good money to government commissioners to come in and take those decisions so i'm very open to any answer from the 151 officer indeed from the chief executive can i pass over to the chief executive please thank you and i'll ask Jason to come in after me as well but um the base cancer is if we don't hit the plan and we can't set a balanced budget then as soon as that becomes apparent we're issuing a section one and four at which point as councilations just said the government will eventually after a period of time and point commissioners the commissioners will arrive and try and see if they can work with us to find better plans that will find bigger savings and will close again that is plan b the one one four is purely an alarm system say to councillors we are running out of money we need a better plan so the comment about um you know we um have we issued section four no obviously not the reason we should say as if we'd issued a section one one four we're trying to deliver against the plan this is one of the plans you're seeing that effectively assumes we had so the commissions will arrive the only thing at this point in time we know commissioners potentially bring with them that we don't have as an organization it's potentially the ability to get the secretary of state to allow us to increase council tax above any cap and that's not guaranteed that will persist past the current government depending on doesn't matter which government comes in next that's something the current secretary of state has chosen to do and there's no guarantee if each secretary of state will do so so you know we are very much on our own in terms of we have to work out how we are going to fix this and the commissioners will basically come in to try and push us harder to make us fix it quicker and if it's not fixable then that's when we have to start talking to government more about council tax and so on but i don't know if a section will five ones so i would like to add anything to it Jason yeah if i just add quickly add a couple of things um so the table and the report sets out a range of options 47 million pounds is the lower end of the range the top end of the range is 116 million the other part i do remember to attention to is the table on reserves on page 62 where it sets out the council's reserves position and you'll see they're forecast to be at the end of march uh 25 to be just under 105 million pounds so they will be taken into account um if if we're short on the target then you look at your once-off sources of funding such as reserves clearly if they aren't sufficient which there is a danger of then you would have to issue a section one one four and do as the chief exec said we would expect commissioners come in at a point in time thank you indulgence i think there's just a huge spread there that of itself is a huge risk to the council which is what i felt i needed to highlight today so thank you chair thank you mandy i can't see other hands so it's back to you bill nothing further to add okay finally back to uh Liz just to sum up if you need to make any other further comments i will sum up chair by saying it is going to be incredibly difficult this year ahead um it's easy for me to sit here and make a bit of a joke about blood pressure it is a really big pressure on this administration we all care about this council there was the move to go to one council at this particular time i do not believe that anyone forecast what happened with inflation what happened with interest rates that has affected the financial future of this council i don't think anybody considered that back in 1819 and 20 when the plan started to come together for a move to either one or two unitaries i don't believe any of the councils saw what was coming and i don't think councils did across the whole country so it is going to be incredibly difficult the only thing we can promise chair is that we work as hard as we possibly can with our officers to make sure we explore every opportunity while we continue to take care of those people who most need our support thank you thank you the recommendation has been put on the four bullet points in your schedule uh can i have a shelf hands please those all in favor sorry yeah okay and those against and those abstentions okay the matter is carried thank you very much we move on to item seven which is the report of the chief executive and i hand over to the chief executive i have nothing to add to the report chair i'm very happy to take any questions okay uh the proposals being proposed by sera um would you like to speak to it not really i think this is an interim appointment and just something we need to do to make sure that the appointment is is probably um comes within the way the council works but you are happy to propose i'm happy to propose it and the seconder is Sue Osborne i've got on the list is that are you happy to second so yes i'm happy to second German thank you very much the unless there's any questions could i have a shelf hands all those in favor are there any against and any abstentions so that is carried we move on to item eight which is report of the monitoring officer and i pass over to Scott thank you chair and again in terms of the report as published council will note two decisions be taken by the chief executive in relation to granting dispensations to councilors k and keech okay are there any questions yes dave mancer sorry i not quite got myself together with this one but um the report is absolutely fine um and thank you very much for the uh a dispensation offered i did just unfortunately feel i should let people know and there's no problem with voting for this and noting it as we should um but the the the version of the report for for councilor k is not actually the final version that the decision was taken on it's not significantly different but there was there were it was slightly differently the final version but i don't you know that i just wished that to be known uh that the version published on the website and which was signed off was was might it's slightly different but we can proceed thank you okay we'll take that away just to double check yes dave it um i think these dispensations of six months are rightly important to people when they when they come into a quite a formal position um so i do welcome the opportunity that we use them and that we we tend to stick together on them and see the opportunity for and create that space for people i'd just like to send my best wishes to both councillors and hope that they return to us very soon and they get better uh for whatever the interval in them at the moment thank you dave Adam yeah i'd just like to echo what dave had said and uh wish both councillors all the best and it's also nice to see councillor catch online i've seen she's been sat through the meeting so i'd just like to uh wish her well as well thank you thank you very much i can't see any other hands so we're asked to note the report so moving on to item 10 which is a report to the leader and executive and i'd invite bill ravens to speak to you please um just can i just call your attention that there was a hand up online is that there's that been noted so that's that's not not appropriate sorry um just to formally introduce the report as written and welcome any questions thank you are there any questions for the leader if not we would move on to uh 10.1 which is the annual report of the lead member for economic development planning and assets and bras oh david sorry oh course yeah we go down the line can we take that report then i'll do it what do you like thank you very much thank you good afternoon everyone um just to remind people each of the executives to a annual report and this is the one for economic development planning and assets it's 30 odd pages and my apologies for that but on the other hand it is fairly comprehensive and gives you all a feel as to what goes on within the council i'm not going to particularly highlight um great detail of this i'm sure i'm more than happy to answer questions but i just really wanted to remind people of some of the things it covers there are a large number of officers in the council who do things and we inadvertently i've heard and not aware of or we just assume faithful granted or um sometimes just um just not think about it but one way of the other there are people here um in the council who every single day open and look up 150 buildings keep the um the maintenance of the building the heating the lighting the security going it's it's it sounds you know minimal but has a huge impact equally you've got within the report um successful building control individuals who have gone out and quite rapidly um trained on a huge number of of new legislation coming through then now in a market leader position and they're hoping to because it is run as a commercial service probably make an extra hundred thousand plus a year for the council because they're now in a position to provide that skill and expertise to our community there are individuals who are coping with immense pressures and i think of our planning departments across the whole of the council individual planners who take um pride in professionalism in coping with planning applications where you've got phosphates where you've got bng complicated legislation and not often considerable pressure from developers members and also the community and we we should be grateful that we have these people dedicated to do such things i could touch on the um the individuals who administer the most incredibly complicated grants we we're very fortunate we've acquired grants from all sorts of um sources nationally but they do have some rules regulations and need for guidance to people who want to apply for them whether it's a local community group trying to get a rural prosperity fund grant or whether it's a group looking at finance um and trying to get some support um with um the uk prosperity fund the things there which we just take for granted but behind the scenes they are providing our community with support to make the very most and the money is available there are also individuals who have um coped with the wide range of issues transferring a lassage is not just from a to b it's amazing the amount of work and effort required to understand um and support the very complicated legal process the process of renegotiating leases and all the other things associated for those of you who have got um that sort of property and alongside all of that we've got a considerable amount of business as usual and i would just touch on one particular group we are going to be selling in the next year with the support of the legal team the assets team um a considerable amount of assets not just our commercial assets but also the ones within um our ownership at the moment and alongside that will inevitably be the business as usual with these assets and we're going to fill that gap which so rightly was identified earlier so within this report um do take and appreciate the fact that we have some very dedicated hard working staff who are delivering for people's Somerset and so do find some time to read it and appreciate what we are doing and that are achieving and the final thing i would say is that we've got a hundred plus million of hard hard earned um regeneration monies from a range of sources you people here from char would know just what the difference has made to the community of charge over the last two years and we're now doing the same in Yoval in um in Glastonbury in Bridgewater in Taunton and all those individual officers who are putting effort to make sure we get the very best out of them every single penny of money from um from our grants needs to be remembered and um i would just like to say on behalf i hope of all of you a real thank you to the staff who have achieved so much and i i hope um um you'll see that in the report thank you thank you very much mark spa thank you chair um just have one question really Somerset council is set to lose seven million pound on a building a predecessor district council purchased in 2021 former Somerset West and Taunton council brought the steel like international limited building in still contract for 21 million pound three years ago now the building is being put up for sale for 14 million pound with a 7 million loss less than what the former council paid in 2021 my question is has anyone been sacked and because this was a private company somebody would be sacked so i'd like to know why somebody hasn't been sacked thank you actually rosa i think the context and i can i come from years and years in private company and i in private companies and so i understand what you're saying the reality is is that a lot of the council business is predetermined by central government and central government made it absolutely clear that local authorities the district councils was taught and every and given leave a lead on raising monies and at a very advantageous rate to buy commercial property and i think that right across the country we have done so now we're in the situation the government has been very clear the same government who encouraged us is now saying very clearly that local councils should digest of their commercial assets and i can't control the market any more than you can and we're in a situation where courtesy of um that short-lived government our commercial market has all short-lived prime minister commercial market has gone very flat and we're now having to sell into that so yes we will be seeing um as sales at far from ideal prices but you tell me what we can do at the moment given the very clear direction from government Martin well thank you chairman it's um question and a comment about the role which i serve on of the strategic planning committee i've been on this since the the county council days and now and one time we dealt with mainly footballs rights and mineral rights and mineral rights have now passed to the area planning committees i believe and frankly uh the strategic planning committee seem in my view doesn't actually do anything strategic and the main strategic purpose of the council in planning terms at the moment is obviously the local plan the new local plan and the the the old the local plan has been taken into that now i was i am i right in thinking that this the work on that is being through a another committee or a subcommittee and in fact the strategic planning committee won't be dealing with that which seems to be a mistake in my view you have a setup committee of experienced planning councillors and all they're going to do frankly at the moment is deal with uh historic rights away and i'd just like to feel that if i'm going to attend and i'm sure other members of that committee would like to feel that we actually would have taken part in a strategic view of the work of this council thank you the strategic planning committee does four or five things um i'm sorry if you don't recognize them one is you're absolutely right the rights away secondly on a costly basis you look at the performance of each of the individual individual four planning committees and you have a ability and instruction in terms of seen whether they're performing whether you want focus and attention so there is an oversight role there the third thing is that all nutrient schemes go to this committee and then approve by this committee and these nutrient screams when they get running and some of them already are up and running and the committee has already seen some will actually unlock some of the most precious housing we've been waiting for for a long time so again it's really critical there are other um activities i think or village green um and also neighborhood plan meetings and and neighborhood plans etc there is a full range of activity and i'm more than happy to take it outside and give you the list of the terms of reference of activity so it is really important and that's for minerals the minerals at the moment um applications and most of them actually refer to mend it but the minerals go first of all to the district old district council areas for consideration and then they then if they if the determination is different from the officers um recommendations will then come to the strategic committee so it's two tranches and i believe if you look at the um the proposal um which will go to full council but the um all minerals will now go um to the strategic committee although there is considerable opposition from um individuals within um the former mend up thank you can i have uh any um conversation please on the new plan because i'm unclear how that is going to be dealt with by councillors uh when over the years as it uh comes to fruition there is for the new local plan and we have until 2028 to deliver and as you know if you've been involved in local plans they take a lot of making at the moment there is the data collection process going ahead quite considerable amount of data collection this will be followed with work with workshops with members and also um with this strategic planning committee will be getting reports and updates on it be the process will ensure as you as you know um a number of statutory consultations with the public and also eventually a statutory review by a planning inspector before it goes to the council for um approval so there are going to be many occasions both individually and collectively where members will be involved and indeed the public generally we're making of the local plan. Lee Redmond. Thank you chair i'll start by thanking Councillor Bock for her report and the in-depth nature of it is really interesting to see some of the great work that's going on my first comment is first the point is a comment in relation to the gravity development and the work that your officers have been doing to bring that forward it needs to be commended and and i look forward to as it grows and bring more stability my next point is in relation to he can see and particularly the workforce negotiations that are currently taking place for the you know where i'm going with this but i'll be very quick and it's just that it's frustrating that with the original DCO that i'm gonna consent order there were some consequences for overrunning of staff of their workforce numbers which brought around a very quick reading negotiation of the numbers previously that the consequences changed a little bit to the point now where i believe that the agreed number is around 8600 and to the best of my knowledge depends who you talk to but there's over 11 000 people already on the side at the moment and forgive me i am in correspondence with the executive director in relation to this but it's an important point to make out loud um there's no real rush to get any further negotiations my concern is if it carries on waiting any longer than this by the time we get to agree in some figures they'll be on the way down and it will be nearly finished the thing is that within the large areas of our county there are massive impacts for the work of staff and i'll just to be clear there are massive benefits for the county as well of which i will always be be either be clear on but the consequence will impact particularly in the area where i represent bridge water housing is become a lottery or a lucky stop at the rent of accommodation is it is it is a auction if it actually makes it out into the public so my question please is can we please start holding edfe's feet to the fire and try and get something done and when we do negotiate this next workforce uplift can we ensure that there's some consequences including it because otherwise who's just we know that they've been over the numbers for for months and months and months and months and months and there's still no rush sorry thank you thank you i totally share an understandable frustration i i think your figure of over 11 is probably an opt is optimistic i suspect it it is going to move and certainly the numbers they have shared with us will go higher um but we have already more than once written to edfe to speed things up it is all wound up with the the revisions of the the DCO which is unusual it's the first time really in the country because they've taken so long to build in clicie we now need to have some revisions to the original DCO order and that is inevitably going to have impacts um i'm more of a happy to share with you but i would agree with you and with one exception i don't think we should put um hinkley um edfe's feet to the far i think we should increase the heat to the far we are already um making it very clear um both in writing and in meetings that this is not acceptable because it does have an impact not only on housing and bridge order but the larger piece and we need to get this resolved because we're very conscious that down the road we'll begin to see some impact with gravity as and when that um builds up so we need to get it resolved and um one of the problems is and it's very different to say size well c in the um the east of the country is that hinkley and edie are a commercial company and therefore we have don't have the same advantages because size well c is being funded by the uk government and therefore you have a very different um dynamic and the ability to actually order things and as i said the DCO um it is um it's quite old and it's being revised at the moment and that is masking i think a lot of activity and i totally understand your frustration and share it but i can assure you um we're we're trying as fast and as quickly as we can to um get them to come to the table and agree but we don't have an awful lot of levers in comparison to some situations. Dave Mantzel thank you and thank you for the thank you for the report and i do agree with the comments made about the the hard work officers are doing and the good and important projects etc that are that are being progressed so there is good evidence of that i've got a question in relation to it's the energy purchasing which is um 4.69 um so i did have the page number i've got it in front of me now but uh 4.69 in the report um my question is in relation to uh something that comes from the the climate emergency strategy which committed the authority to switching to a hundred percent renewable energy tariff and i believe that did happen um but i noticed the wording in the report didn't didn't match that um so um could i ask are you able to say um today um if you have if you have that in front of you uh what is the situation on the renewable energy tariff is that in place is it something that's planned and if it needs a written answer that that's fine but i would be interested to know some details you know what what what is the tariff as well what what does it involve thank you thank you i only i would suggest i give you a fulsome written answer um we do um put quite an emphasis on decarbonizing buildings and we're in the bidding process again to try and decarbonize them another building which will again help with the energy but in terms of the tariff in all its detail i'll come back to you. Norman Cavill thank you mr chairman i just like some clarity on an issue i i remember as a district council at Somerset western taunton that when we were looking to invest uh to make income on property the government issued clear instructions that we were not to use public uh works loan board at an advantageous rate against private enterprise uh to invest for income furthermore when councils continue to do so they actually issued an edict that those councils that did so would actually lose the right to borrow a public works loan rate for investment for local use like uh our housing etc and therefore would be a disadvantage i don't call this incentivizing us to use a work loan board money for investment it rather the opposite so is that the case Liz did you want to come back yeah uh i don't know if jason vaughan still with us but uh there was uh the early days of investment in commercial investments which started in 2016 if i'm on the right day at mended district council was the first of the districts and pwlb borrowing was available then the government changed it later and so uh councils that had used for instance internal borrowing in order to purchase were then restricted in what they could use pwlb borrowing for at a later stage i i think if when people look back on this in ten years time or maybe even just five years time they'll see a number of actions that were taken that actually have impacted on on the financial security of councils one of them for me is the loss of the audit commission i suspect if the audit commission was not lost things would have looked different and then with the reduction in the revenue support grant particularly councils did indeed invest for yields so that they could support their services that way there was a time a quite a long time actually when interest rates were at historical lows so some of the districts well one particularly i know i know from mended my time at mended that borrowing was long term borrowing was taken out of very low figures um the county council continued with internal borrowing rather than externalizing at low rates i think there will be people writing essays and indeed books on how things have turned out for local authority the audit commission government actions borrowing interest rates all the rest of it they will all be in there and they are all impacting on this council along with unitarization thank you chair thank you uh man to chill cut just to remind you this is questions for ros this is thank you know referred to reports so first of all i think there's much to celebrate here um and also to bulk of this work have has been a number of years in bringing it together and i suppose it's thanks going out to those districts and the former county council that started um a lot of these projects and there's been some really good money that's been pulled into summer sets i think it's great to take a moment to celebrate and also particularly a small item actually within the report but that's a screen summer set you know we've now got a web page dedicated to films and productions coming to summer set i think summer set is a fantastic location to come filming we've seen some good productions recently and i'd really love to see us all sharing pictures and experiences in summer set in all that we do every day to extol its virtues i think we've all got a part to play in that um just moving on and touching on the hpc workforce i think there is a conversation to be had and certainly in the very very early days way ahead of any building starting there was a considerable amount of mapping and planning into workforce where they would go how they would stay i think it would be really valuable to look at that initial work and see how much it differs because i think what we see now is totally different to what was planned and i think that would be useful to do as a as a learn um my questions really are around um we've heard that there are a lot of properties that are going to be disposed of we all understand that um my concerns are around capacity within the assets team and legal um is there the capacity are we buying in capacity i know it was stretched before we started this work so i don't know where it's at now and just finally um i think myself and councilor Hadley would really welcome and meeting uh with with you was because i have some real concerns about some of the processes that are going alongside um some of these sales and i think it is in part due to the speed that we are trying to work at but i'm just really keen that even though you're working at speed things are still done in the right way so i would open that invitation to you if that's possible from them myself first of all um for those you can recall before we went to vesting day the one strategy we got in place was asset disposal no longer is it a single member decision we put together a governance which is very clear about who makes the decision what are the criteria we'll meet and that is now move forward into an executive subcommittee which is a public meeting as well so that there is considerable governance so i i think it's a little unfair to characterize it as things which are really concerning because we move from a very um opaque system to a very transparent one and i feel that um yes i'm sure we can improve further but it is a very open system about it i mean in terms of capacity yes you'll write the the department um is thunder pressure because we're also involved in devolution and also a number of other day-to-day businesses use your activity we have um taken out a contract with a legal specialist legal firm to deal with some of the larger um disposal so that we get it right and um we also are using an external agent as well uh gained through the procurement process to support the um disposal of the major commercial assets but on the ground an awful lot of bitches down to Somerset and council officers talking to both individuals groups parishes towns and getting it right and we will try to do it as ruckly as we can i know there's great expectation around devolution but we do need to adhere to the policies which are are in place the procedures and make sure that everybody is aware of it right across the county so the whatever the wherever we are each of the individual services have an opportunity to look at an asset before we say it is um suitable for disposal to make sure that um we don't dispose of an asset which could have actually helped out another particular service so there is quite a lot of structure and i think good governance overseen by both the executive subcommittee and democratic services i think i'm really fully aware the policy i've read it and to earn but i'm still welcome a conversation with you thank you Henry Hobart thank you mr chairman um i would like just to remind council of why the constitution governance committee it was agreed that the strategic planning committee is reviewing its work with the rights away and in july that is being actually looked up thank you. Henry you're absolutely right i'm talking about but as here and now with the question i had on the strategic committee going forward we inevitably will be tweaking and we'll continue to tweak the tweak the processes to get them as effective as possible. Thank you right Andy Dingle thank you very much i just wanted to pick up on that strategic planning committee meeting i've done a little digging on the website since vesting day has been 13 meetings scheduled and nine cancelled um so is it is part of that tweaking going to be just in the scope of the um of the meeting to become more effective? i believe democratic services put in a number of meetings throughout the year and then they are dependent on what comes to it if you think about we have i don't know i can't remember the figure i want to say six thousand but i may have got it wrong but the number of potential planning applications which could go to the strategic committee many of them don't need to in the end but the point being is that we have availability a slot in the diary and that is the case inevitably you know rights away challenges and all the other things do vary as super mineral applications. Rosemary Woods now can you hit all you can thank you thank you chair um it's quite simple i hear one thing when we're talking about disposing of buildings i hear that with west Somerset we have west Somerset House it is greatly underused at the moment and so i welcomed the fact that it's going to be more used going to be diversified but i hear from one sector that caught it's been consult consultation has gone on all the way through i hear from my my parishes we haven't heard anything about it now if we are going to do these plans if we are going to dispose of buildings please talk to the parishes talk to me even in my parry you know i can pass it on but i can't if i'm told on one hand all they've all been consulted on the other they haven't can you clarify what is correct on the um office rationalization you're absolutely right with Somerset House is being um made more versatile in terms of some building work and will take a range of of offices and services and facilities in there including a meeting area the process started probably early last year where both the town councils and i think emails went to the parishes but those of them weren't back interested around plus all the um the local members to talk about the process i do think that and i'll put a hand to this that there could have been and should have been a bit more consultation at the very end that the um underlying process has been shared it was shared with staff it was shared with unions last summer and the the whole process is um has been consulted but probably not as fulsomely as we could have done and i am my apologies for that um i'm sorry if this process is at the end my elderly people that i'm told that a lot of people in my area are over 80 i i got i got told that at adults and health um won't be able to actually speak with a person they'll be expected to do it online and they can't do that but i was promised right at the beginning that we'd have that opportunity to have reception there that will be able to answer their questions or pass it on to an officer who could but it doesn't seem that that's the case this is what's happening at the grassroots the actual thing is falling down okay the customer service proposals about how um the service of talking to people directly i think i need to hand out to my colleague what we're doing in in all the offices where we're rationalizing is making sure that our reception deaths and our ability for members of the public where it's appropriate to come into the building but how um the customer service runs is really um up to um the model which cuts which i think um communities would like to run but as with many things in assets we have sometimes the facilitator and we provide space and then it's up to the individual services to use the spaces they wish and i think that is the case and i don't know whether you would like to talk about customer services um raise me i'll get you a written response in relation to west Somerset house so that you can go through it um well i can go through it with you and so we can outline um what is going to take place in relation to customer services there and but we can also get yourself a review of also Val which is our in-house library service the virtual assistant learning which i know that we did in minehead library so you can also find out a bit more about that as well because we've got lots of different ways that you can interact with the customer service team both in person and in our libraries we'll look forward to that thank you i just now want to take David for the girl before we move down the line before we lose all the need members i've got a specific question for Ross but it's not on her report it's on her daily day-to-day job so can i just log that that we don't skip over saying we've just done Ross i do need to ask her a question we'll start with Heather then and children's any questions for Heather no right we all go to Ross then and back to David as Somerset's one of the most likely council uh counties to the blood i'd just like to understand if we have a solar farm drainage strategy policy um and as we already have over a hundred solar farms in the county do we have a policy on drainage relating to solar farms and if we don't doncaster city council do i'm not sure we could copy theirs but it is quite important as they are coming forward rapidly and it's important it matters particularly for my area at the moment thank you for that i'll give you a detailed report on that but be there are a large number of solar farms and i think drainage needs to be looked at again not just with solar farms but right across the county because we've seen very different weather patterns and i think that um it's not my team but Dixie's team who um who are looking at flooding and the resilience we can build in our communities but i'll take the point about a planning policy around drainage on solar farms separately it is a separate planning requirement so i understand we don't have one okay there are any more questions for ros other than we've gone back yes yeah thank you um thank you chair ros um i i noticed that you're you're basically um next meeting that we have next full council meeting the the suggestions of the input into the the planning changes uh proposed that we will have um at the regional planning boards they will have 11 or 13 um planning officers and i sorry sorry planning members of committees and i just wondered i know we should probably debate it fully at the time um but just before that i don't understand the reasoning for reducing um the number of members but just to note that that will also reduce the coret number and strategic remains of 13 with the same i can't remember whether it's 6 or 5 to be coret but quite often we get people who ill they can't attend and i think it's not valuable to reduce it and i can't imagine why we'd want to okay the review of the um planning committees and and several other constitutional things were led by um democratic services with the chairs and vice chairs of planning and they came up with some amendments and changes following quite considerable consultation and if you've been to any planning committee you will have seen questioners going out to members of the public to um people who were in attendance and also planning agents and also um members and so that information was collated it was then um considered um in some detail by the chairs and planning chairs and then a workshop who was held with the constitutional and governance subcommittee on the issue and so the recommendation has come from that process and i do recognize that there are challenges about the recommendation there are also challenges about attendance at such um meetings and also um what the numbers should be and there are some very strongly held views and we will have a final um agreed paper to come to the meeting in May inevitably not everyone would agree because people are um like the planning system they're used to if you come from a district area and we're going to have to make a fairly crunchy decision of yes we'll run with this for six months and see how it works we can't redesign a a process en masse in a in a full council meeting so if you have missed the opportunity to give feedback on anything then do send it to i think scott um as you're leading on that from democratic services and you would pick up any additional comments from members okay thank you thank you right it's going down the line are there any questions for Theo no moving on to FED obviously communities yes David um i'm assuming now i've got my badge which says i've got i'm Asian even verified and so this is a question about licensing is that a thing like you isn't it um could you just confirm for me whether the policy still exists that um this council will not allow the last pub in a village to close and be redeveloped no i don't know that answer off the top of my head had David but i will get you the answer and circulate it to everyone thank you right with summer trepidation i move on to Richard usually this is how we get so the mike rigby theory still continues right starting from this end Sue thank you sorry i didn't know whether Richard should be terrified or flattered with the amount of interest and attention he generates um but i think i'll probably draw a conclusion on that at the end of this what i wanted to raise Richard and i did send a photograph through you to you as a heads up um it's the state of a bridge that i think that is the parish council is consistently referred to and it's the bridge at cold harbor farm it is probably i'm not sure whether it's listed or not and it goes over the sustran cycleway 33 the stop line way and it is recently thanks to construction work kept getting hit the stone coping at the top has come away lower stones have got dislodged and there is very real concern that those stones could drop onto the highway onto the um cycleway footway below and this council did spend a lot of money putting in that stop line where you spent about 100 gram per kilometer um back in the early 2000s that's not the point though um the point is though that the bridge comes under Somerset council as a structure but because of a highway anomaly the public footpath ends a hundred feet short of it so the problem is we're now in a ping pong situation between the county farms as state and highways let's see who's actually going to properly repair this bridge so Somerset estate have temporarily done a repair and to be honest it's a botched job it's not really suitable you're propping a bit of it up with bricks it doesn't line up it hasn't taken the ashtrays away and considering the age and the status of this bridge this doesn't know justice so who is actually in an authority that is meant to be transforming which means no silos but yet here we are dealing with two sideways one is called highways the other is gall candy estates can it be resolved please and also can a long-term plan be drawn up for that cycleway which is very much the Cinderella cycleway it has been neglected it is falling disrepair we are responsible for half of it Sostranstall 2028 for the other there is some money s106 possibly from persimmon but it needs a joined up long-term plan to make it work and to turn it into a jewel in the crannos states but for the moment i want assurance that that bridge will be dealt with with act delay and the delay is done and that the repairs are done on a permanent basis not as a temporary box shop um yeah um before i start i would say last council meeting i put a letter three to every member to say that i would be early and people could could see me now i forgot to send the letter out i've been very busy this week but i was here since 12 o'clock ready for for people to around me um or or whatever they wish to do with me um within reason um yes you did you did you did you did send me um an email on this and i don't remember whether i got your response yes i got a feeling i haven't yet um you haven't had a response right okay this this has always been a bugbear of mine where um there's a ping pong effect where people let you know different parts think that it's slightly different um i'll i'll point out to you the situation we had in uh summaton um with some uh some separate crossings that weren't being sorted out and um i it took a lot of effort of me sort of saying no this is not good enough we've got to stop this ping pong it wasn't it wasn't Somerset council's fault it was other people that were stopping but we you've got to stop that sort of um delay in things happening so i will take on board what you said um and i will get back to you and try and give you a more wholesome response thank you councillor Wilkins and i will be happy to accept a written response or even show you the site right going down the line next the bond there again thank you um chairman just one one first use one observation um particularly around an issue that was raised to council Wilkins by myself around flooding in one of the villages and which i've had a response for and i've read but just to just to make a comment because i don't know if this is a wider thing within the department at all um but we raised flooding issues the parish council raised flooding issues we've got a response as he knows um from from the relevant team saying we've looked at it's all fine there's no issues with it um the parish council pressed on with councillor Wilkins and he took it further and i was pleased that um today hearing back that actually yeah it's not all right we'll do some works but i'm just a bit concerned and when when things are raised in the first instance that parish councils are being told you bad and look there's nothing wrong with it but thankfully councillor Wilkins chased it further perhaps two or three times and actually there was an issue and i just wonder if there's an underlying problem there or not around the communication actually works being done or not being done investigative works but i just want to put that aside and also thank you for um kind of delivering one a particular thing um and your persistence on that but the thing i wanted to to raise separately um was around a small element of the bus service improvement plan um he'll know that 800 000 pounds of that was allocated to bridge water for bus priority infrastructure um along part of the taunton road and also part of the clique between lego and east key also part of the funding was for new controlled traffic signals on various junctions around the town now when we heard about that we were absolutely delighted with that because we know what the traffic's like in bridgy and we were very hopeful that this would help alleviate some of the problem um however i recently learned that bridge water will no longer be seeing any of that bus lane investment or the traffic signals improvement that was promised because that particular 800 000 pound has been it what i would say snatched from bridge water and diverted to taunton instead you'll understand that bus users are raising the issues with me you know how good bus users are at raising issues with you too but they in particular feel that bridge water has been hugely let down by backtracking on that investment and they've asked me to ask him why has he turned his back on bridge water on this issue okay um there is an awful lot of work that's being um done in bridge water um around the around the whole of bridge water as as you well know um i believe that the bus improvements that you're on about that we're no longer doing would result in an eight-second improvement in bus times um i didn't think that the work um the disruption and the work for an eight-second improvement was frankly worthwhile um that is why we're not doing them right i have three more lucy and then rosemary woods and then mandy kill cart then we move on point of order chair for doing sister people don't raise erochial issues that could have been raised outside this meeting we're nearly at end time yeah applying to raise general issues about policy but not about specific constituents yes um thank you so my question is around road safety about a month ago a car overturned on a narrow winding road into brookin um it's almost impossible to imagine it could have happened 20 mile an hour area nobody was injured we had a simmer incident nearly two years ago um and nobody was injured then so highways tell me there's nothing that needs to be done and nothing that can be done um in a wider sense um i want to know what your reassurances are about road safety we've seen several terrible incidents and accidents in the whole of the county resulting in fatalities recently um do we have road safety funds are they ring fenced in light of the current financial situation and our accident prevention schemes still a priority for this council um yeah i'll respond fully in in writing however there there is um road safety schemes and they are looked at in a data driven format if you like um and we have to be very clear that when we make alterations that they will have the right response if you see what i mean it's um so uh for instance we've got the miner's arms scheme that's coming forward um to do to deal with a crossing that's um frankly quite dangerous um but we have to put some real data in behind what we do how we do it and where we think that we're going to get proper response at least um on that but i will i will give you a follow answer i think Rosemary right first of all i'm going to apologize for not answering not asking the question i was going to ask but i'm going to thank Councillor Wilkins for opening up the coast path at Blue Anchor between Blue Anchor and Watchit because that's what you promised as a council that we'd have pedestrian more pedestrian routes we'd have cycling routes we're still waiting for the cycling permission but we thank you for opening it and i'll email you with my other question thank you thank you right moving to Mandy finally thank you very quick policy question really it's really between yourself and Dixie Dart who's not here so i'll just sit to you um will this council looking having a policy for tree planting and a specific highways tree planting um i've been trying to get some planted for four years which we know about but i think it'd be really helpful flat towns and parishes perhaps where they're willing to fund them that we can have a policy that they can follow so that we can get some more planted quickly around the county um there are bits of work that highways need to do because there needs to be a license there are bits that there are before a cultureist needs to do it needs to be the right type of tree and there just needs to be a very quick and easy way of getting it done so i think this council is keen to be green and plant trees and i think if you could have something in place across the county i think it would hit those tree planting but also really uh encourage that work between towns parishes and the council Richard do you want to yeah thank you and you're absolutely right um any work we can do to help facilitate tree planting in this county is obviously an important thing especially with the flooding and the resilience of trees put into the area um i'm very much i think that's a very good suggestion i think i will work with Dixie um on a as a first point i think it's probably her directorate that should lead it but i will ask my um my highways team to work strongly with her thank you it does fall across different areas which has been the struggle really happy to have a conversation with you both if it helped Ross finish off please could i just add to that that um the highways people and i've been dealing with this have um a very clear policy about pollarding trees which are really quite important particularly on the levels or more um particularly between the road and the rain and and that's one area where they are clearing areas before things are being planted or pollarding and the second thing which i've been working on quite considerably in my part of the world is that ash dieback is so substantial and that they're having to um i'm sorry to say cut down dying and dead trees along roadsides before they actually fall onto the road and so the highways team are very involved in um tree works adjacent to the highway and i expect alongside that Dixie has got a planting process as well but we'll take it off long thank you no pollarding planning place for our area so welcome a conversation about that thank you moving on to item 11 which is the report the five scrutiny committees we're sorry i missed you out you were hiding behind Richard there any questions for Sarah well that was a big disappointment moving back okay moving on to item 11 the right i did promise we're at this age uh stage of the breeding where it's getting late i did promise the chairs that they could have at least an input and i will go around i know we've got three here starting with lee redman my inputted chair is that it's pretty unreasonable again that scrutiny has been delegated to the end of the meeting and i'm looking around the room and surprise surprise including my own members so don't worry they'll get it just as well there's an empty there's lots of empty spaces i'm sorry this is beginning to get a bit monotonous now i know scrutiny is irrelevant in most people's heads but this is getting silly yes i Martin dimmery did you want to add i'd very much like to commend the report to the members thank you thank you bob filmer is here i believe yep he still is um so just again so to to present the report to members a group of the comments from from lee it would be helpful if we could somehow yeah be a little bit higher up the agenda because we do tend to get sort of shoved down the back when everyone has left um but just tell you this opportunity to thank the officers who put together the meetings reports presented to us and also the members of my scrutiny committee and all those who come substituted because we've had a lot of substitutes come along so thank you for making that effort to come to the meetings and contribute thank you we have gels lo come online thank you mr chairman i'm sorry i can't be with you today um but i just wanted to say can you hear me all right can you hear me yes we can sorry i just wanted to say that the importance of the committee cannot be underestimated at the adult social care at the committee because the adult social care budget is obviously the highest and it's one of the largest of the council's statutory spend i've tried to make sure with along with the committee the scrutiny function we perform help to deliver efficiency savings and working together with the director of social care we've made a critical friend in shaping and a program called my future my life my future but there is still an awful lot of work to do um we are an inclusive committee and i would just welcome the views and attendance of all councilors and can i just make the point which is on my my report healthy western we um we just wanted to say that there was a presentation given to the committee in february indicating some very positive steps oh i i have however heard some very recent experiences of residents um that actually it's not the case in western hospital at the moment and um we are i've got in touch with the executive managing director for for an update on healthy western there seems to be some um postcode lottery issues that really are very important to many residents so we've asked them to come back to the committee but obviously it isn't very important and i i do agree with um council redman that being at the end everyone's nearly gone and um it does feel like um this is a we're here to make efficiency savings and quite honestly we're we're shoved at the bottom all the time and um it would be nice to have a little bit of change around uh chairman if that would be if that's that's the case but like i said apologies i'm not there but you don't want bridgy bugs thank you jill and i hope you feel better thank you thank you yeah can i just take the opportunity to thank all five of the scrutiny chairs for the credible hard work they do in scrutinizing the work of the council is hugely appreciated and i wonder whether we could request that this item be higher up on the agenda in future meetings because we have run significantly over time i'm aware that several members of our town and parish councils that they need to need to move on to it's not a lack of interest it's an inability to be in more than one place at the same time um so that that thanks to all those members who sit on scrutiny and particularly the chairs and vice chairs who work so hard could we recognize that by putting them higher up your agenda please thank you Heather do you want to i've built it exactly perfectly right upon the thank yous but i just want to say that jill mentioned that um one of the roles of scrutiny is about efficiency savings it's also about quality improvement and like the quality of the services to be improved i really welcome what the scootney teams do and i just want to say thank you so but uh yeah bill did most of the work on that one but thank you very much thank you and from me thank oh sorry david it's not related but i just want to whether through uh the leader and uh his colleagues or constitution committee which you just revisit whether it's right to start this meeting at two o'clock in the afternoon a lot of people do i'm missing at harrish council now um a lot of people have to go to them because they start and they've got to go ahead and have to get out of tea or whatever and i know ten o'clock means that people have to take a day off work if they're working but it does feel like two o'clock's not actually producing the best result for us just my things the the the the the points it's sorry i chatted for you the point is well made and i'm sure we can we can look at it i think we would normally not have anticipated um the april meeting um taking this long if you recall the budget meeting we did start earlier in the day and um it may well just be that we had a contentious item on the agenda needed significant debate but yeah we will take that on board okay thank you right if we can move on to the last item which is the annual report the standards committee hand over to jon bayley thank you chair and thank you everybody who's stayed here um to be pleased and i'm going to ignore the pleas the many pleas that i've had to read this through line by line i have nothing to add but we'll take any questions are there any questions no if that being the case i can thank those that are still here for attending and have a safe journey home thank you You [BLANK_AUDIO]