Transcript

committee I'm Councillor Wayne and I'm chairing tonight's meeting. Please note we're not expecting a fire alarm test this evening so if the alarm is sounded please evacuate the building. This meeting is being broadcast live on the council's website. Please turn on your microphone when speaking and remember to turn it off when you have finished and speak clearly and directly into your microphone. I will now ask my fellow members and the officers to introduce themselves starting on my right. Thank you chair and Councillor Ruilin Kondoko vice-chair for the committee. Councillor Jirani Choudhury. Councillor Jason Jackson I'm chair of homes and communities. Councillor Saika Pando, St Mary's and St James's Ward. Councillor Goochi Nozdame chair for children's and young people. Councillor Nestor Figueroa-Samstrom for High Group Ward. Councillor Angelo Wees, Councillor Pamara May Ward and chair of licensing committee. Councillor Sarah Hyde, Caledonian Ward. Councillor Heather Starr, Flacock Ward. Councillor Fisher, Brienne Arson Ward. Thank you. A few formalities. We have no apologies for absence but we do have apologies from Councillor Clark for lateness. There are no substitute members. Any declarations of interest at all? No declarations of interest so turning to the minutes of the previous meeting they are of course for the policy and performance scrutiny committee which this committee has replaced. Before we note those minutes Councillor Choudry I think you have a question arising out of the last meeting with regard to a question that you asked at that meeting. It's going to be dealt by Jonathan and I will have confirmation it's fine. Thank you. Thank you for that. In which case can we note the minutes of the previous meeting? So first item chairs report. This is the first meeting of the new committee so very little to report. I've had a number of meetings over the past few days with the lead officers for the various items that this committee scrutinise and also with executive members. I will say a little bit more about those meetings when we talk about the work programme and the scrutiny topic a bit later on. This is a new committee. It's remit has changed from that which policy and performance had and part of the rationale for that is to allow more time for scrutiny of performance, the budget and economic matters and that will be very much the focus of this committee along with I expect increased focus of Councillor Chapman's portfolio. One note we are in the pre-election period and we must be cautious to avoid remarks that could be interpreted as being party political during this time. As far as public questions are concerned we're not overrun with members of the public tonight but there is the opportunity for members of the public to ask questions following each agenda item although of course primacy will always be given to the committee members. There are no items for calling, there are no external attendees and so the first item on the agenda item D1 terms of reference membership and dates of meeting. The terms of reference are set out from page seven onwards along with the committee membership in terms of the working arrangements in terms of reference before we formally agree them. Does anybody have any observations or comments on them? I don't see any members wanting to speak on that. As far as the next meeting of this committee is concerned the proposal would be to reschedule the next meeting to the 30th of July. Does that on the face of things cause any of the committee any insuperable difficulties? What we are endeavoring to do is find a date in a fairly narrow window because of an unexpected general election and all of the log jam that has caused. When would be the last date that you would be available? Thursday the evening of Thursday the 25th of July. And in that window between the 22nd of July and the 30th of July does anybody else have any commitments that mean they couldn't attend on a particular date during that period? It is the school holidays so my family is very likely to be away but I have a very competent substitute member who has the biggest experience on this committee who hopefully would be around to substitute for me. In which case I think if we work on the basis of provisionally the 30th, Jonathan I know you'll have another look because I think ideally we would like it to be as close to the 22nd of July as possible and if we can have the date confirmed perhaps by Monday so everybody can put it in their diaries. If there is any change to the 30th of July being muted I'll circulate that before it's all ratified so provisionally the 30th but to be clarified in the next few days. In which case can we note the... Sorry. I do believe there was a meeting scheduled for in August as well and that was I think in anticipation if there was a call-in because of a decision that's coming up in the forward plan so there was a provisional meeting for the 1st of August in case there was a calling after the July executive meeting if the meeting is later in July and then that won't be required. Any call-in would go to that meeting instead. Yeah I'm also not trying to be difficult before I should try. I mean 25th there's licensing sub C so depending on the business I may be delayed but I should be fine to attend. Thank you. And likewise I think the 30th will mean substitutes for myself and Councillor Ibrahim on that licensing but we'll work around that somehow. Okay can we formally note the report. Item B2 performance management working group 12-month report back and I think we have Julie Foy and Astrid Akio here to present and just give you a moment to come forward. The committee have all read the report and Julie as I think you know my preference presentations short and snappy no more than five minutes if possible. Thank you chair. So some members of the committee here may have been part of the committee when we initiated the working group that you just referred to Councillor De Vane. We carried out a range of meetings where we looked at some of the data the benchmarking best practice around performance development for staff brought forward some recommendations to this committee which were then referred on to the executive. We've subsequently gone on to introduce the new approach of performance development so this report that you see today is an update that we have brought back so that you can see a full year of the scheme having been in operation so we can give you some of the highlights of how that's been working over the last year and how we continue to make improvements to it and actually we'll just run through very briefly some of those highlights and a little bit more newer information that we thought would be helpful for the committee. Thank you. So we introduced our new approach to performance development called Islington check-ins on the 1st of April 2023 and that replaced the previous model that was called quality conversations. The new approach involves a monthly check-in between managers and their team members with a check-in review every four months where performance is reflected upon and a current status is awarded. The report this report highlights the communication and engagement campaigns carried out to introduce and embed the new approach including workshops for managers online resources to make the approach to make sure that the approach was fit for purpose for our diverse workforce particularly with piloting with frontline colleagues. After each checking review period we pull the data and on the submission and the status percentages and bring that to our corporate management team where we monitor our quality data and identify any trends and address any areas of concern. We've always been really clear that this is an iterative learning process so we ask for feedback and suggestions and listen to them often on how to improve Islington check-ins often through local discussions, surveys and as well as feedback from workshops etc and several changes have been made as a result of listening to the feedback from colleagues. I want to take the opportunity as Julie mentioned to share some related results from our recent all colleagues survey. We received the results after we submitted this paper so that's why they weren't included but we thought we'd take the opportunity to share them this evening. For reference anything that's over or below a five percentage point difference is statistically significant. So we saw a 13 percentage point increase from our 2021 survey when we asked colleagues if their line managers deal with inappropriate behavior and that has moved up to 73 percent and when we asked whether managers deal effectively with poor performance colleagues reported a 68 percent agreement which is a 15 percentage point increase from the 2021 colleagues survey. So in conclusion we wanted to share that Islington check-ins have been well received in general and are really an important component in investing in high-performing workforce as outlined in our Islington together 2030 plan. Thank you. Questions and comments. Councillor Starth, Councillor Abraham and then Councillor Kondoka. Thank you Astrid and Julie for the report. It's good to see the work you're doing as always. Just a question relating to page 16 at 4.10. So we talked about designing a reconsideration meeting for colleagues who disagree with their current status. Would you mind telling us how much how often does that happen that there is actually a disagreement that you would need to then design this meeting in process? This was something that we agreed to bring into the process following discussions with our trade union colleagues and that's because for the first time since we had the previous arrangement if some of these receives a red rating when it comes to the point of an incremental progression at the end of the year it would be withheld. There were only 20 colleagues who received the red rating at the time and only four of those were still eligible for an increment with the others being at the top of the scale and there have been no reconsideration hearings that have been requested so zero at present but it gives that safeguard for colleagues to be able to bring that forward should they choose to with the support of trade unions. Just a follow-up to that as well. Do you have that draft guidance regarding what that reconsideration meeting will look like so that all staff are aware of that as well that they can access it? Yes, yes we do. Thank you and echo council staff. It's really nice to see the work and especially I think I was here when we were talking about bringing in the check-ins. There was one question, well there's a couple of questions, the first one was out of just largely out of curiosity why, because you just jumped out at me, why November 23 there was this sudden but dramatic drop in the percentage of submissions and it was just a point that Ashid made and again just trying to understand how we're using this so you said you know it's taken to corporate management team it seems it's it's not for them to monitor kind of the completion rates because it seemed like the completion rates are relatively quite high so I'm wondering like when you are presenting this or like how is that being used by this corporate management team you know what what insights are you providing to them how you know how does that change how they're kind of dealing with their director so just didn't I realize you just said that but I thought just drilling a bit more into how you know the corporate management team are using some of that data you provided from HR around the check-ins. So as to why we had a drop for submissions in November 2023 we're not entirely sure what we did as a result because we obviously we want that the trend to increase not to decrease we want more and more people to be completing this and so we as we built in an extra process ahead of the March 24 submission sort of deadline out where we followed up with people who hadn't submitted at certain points throughout the month and that led to an increase again in March 24 so and then in general how it's used in CMT so we bring the data we share anything that we think is a kind of areas of concern at the moment there aren't any kind of really kind of outlier trends in terms of you know that in terms of a qualities data that relate to it but what we do really do is keep an eye on that so because there might be more kind of local data to look at so we also pair going to the corporate management team with also working closely with each director to understand their data and what that tells them and if we need to make any changes as a result of that so for example some feedback that came out of CMT was around creating a moderation process so the managers kind of could have open discussions around fairness and appropriateness of awarding statuses and so that's been introduced as a result also that's really useful to know and there was one other question and and I've lost where it was in the in the papers unfortunately and but you were talking about comparing there was one one question that I think you you you highlighted which was and you know colleagues feeling confident that their manager can deal with poor performance and you were talking about how there's been a 15 percent increase and it was just again you know numbers is something I'm very interested in you saying it's now at 68 percent which you know seems quite depressingly low if I'm honest with you compared to so I'm just wondering if though what is there any work going on in that you know you kind of don't want to be in the 60s you kind of want to have the confidence that your manager can deal with poor performance and because it can lead to as you will know all sorts of feelings of resentment and concerns and so thank you for the work that's happened but is there anything else and a separate position on KPIs or things like that because we really just need to kind of set some really stretch targets and and but yeah maybe that's the last question I had on that thank you so we were pleased obviously there was an increase and we I don't know if you might get a don't know if we have any benchmark data related to that I'm not I'm not from other outside organizations however we're continuing our work to make sure that managers have the skills the tools the capability to be able to have open honest and frank conversations as well as for them to be able to give them give feedback well and receive feedback well as managers we hope that that's going to continue to help so essentially we have for example we've got online resources where you can watch a demonstration video of how to give constructive feedback and how to talk about poor performance we've got resources to support that that you can read through there are workshops to attend and online learning but we definitely want to make sure that we continue to develop our managers to be able to do that and just support our staff as well see thank you I know it's noted in the report but to say it in for the sake of transparency that I was part of the working group that worked with the officers at the other side of the table to consider what recommendations could be put forward to tackle this issue and I'm really delighted thank you so much for the work that you've done and are continuing to do and of course I've been in continuous conversations with you to see how the work progresses and what I'm very thankful for is the openness to continue to progress and expand and reflect and take on feedback and just a few points perhaps the similar if not expanding on what's been said where you you might not see everyone coming to the table might not see everyone always being able to be open and honest in the forums that you've created what work are you doing to try and ensure that there are safe safe routes for any grade across the council to raise concerns what are those safe routes are they clear how are they advertised and sign posted I'll stop there I'll ask the next one if that's okay thank you can't see good doctor and on that in particular around safe routes for raising concerns one of the things we've almost concluded is a piece of work we've been doing around bullying and harassment and very specifically we have been exploring through we did a survey we've done focus groups we've worked with trade unions and our staff networks around what that would look like alongside the really important role our staff network chairs play as kind of champions and our equality champions so we don't have an exact answer right now because that's what we're just working through at the moment what do other organizations do how do we make sure that if somebody is raising a concern through a safe route how can that be kept anonymous where that's appropriate but actually recognize it's very difficult to deal with anonymous inquiries and actually investigate things fully so just trying to get the balance where people feel able to raise things but most importantly we want people to feel that they do have the confidence to speak up that there is a psychologically safe working environment and we do ask a number of questions in our colleague survey around that we are seeing improvements and that's a lot around the culture of the organization and and people seeing that things are acted acted upon and actually there has been a downward trend in people who say they've experienced discrimination in the workplace since the 2021 survey which is a positive and the more that we can talk positively about having a zero tolerance approach to things in the workplace and make sure people are encouraged to be active bystanders if they see things that are not appropriate and then all the better and I'm sure it's an obvious point but having those having the roots and the approaches that you're creating that give people the confidence to step forward and call out issues it's very comforting to see in place and the more that you can work on the feedback and that reciprocates to improving the process of course is great to hear are you finding still that there are staff that are unable to access any of the approaches or are not getting involved with things like the check-in approach and how are you trying to address that and also are you finding your awareness building routes or for you the materials that you say that you've got available for staff to use you know are they being effective how are you measuring that how are you tracking that to ensure that it's not just say the same manager that's always accessing it but it's a constant consistent and constant the approaches the materials are consistently and constantly being accessed from by everyone across the council so staff being able to access check-ins and making sure that they're happening I guess we do because of course we get the data from every four months with the check-in review periods we're working on whether or not we need to create kind of an additional system process so at the moment we just capture on our system the every four months to status submissions but we're working on whether or not we need to bring in something where we capture when check-ins are happening every every month in between the check-in reviews at the moment based on the feedback from the colleague survey for example they are happening and but of course what we do with the check-in review status is we take a deeper dive into where there haven't been any submissions and then go out to have conversations with people we've done that in the break you know very often in the past and we'll try to work with people locally to make a difference so for example we got low responses from one area of our it was a frontline staff area in housing and so we went out to work with them we've built actually a kind of a bespoke template for them to use and because it now encompasses everything that they need to talk through with their staff in one space we find that check-ins are actually happening with them because we've just bespoke tip to work for them so in how do we know that people are using our resources that we have online we can measure we can see the click views etc on our internet on our we have a learning management system called my learning and we're able to run reports on that and so what you can actually see it's not just who has they completed the module who has watched the video but how long they spent on it so if you've got like a one minute then potentially we know that there's there's not been kind of huge amount of engagement but we so we can report on the the views and the engagement with the online learning modules and of course we have attendance as well as feedback and evaluation forms for all of those areas including the workshops has that helped it does thank you I'm sure we could delve more but I won't I won't do that to us maybe just one final point beyond what you said and maybe what's beyond what's captured in the report is there anything that you've found that there's more that should be done could be done or anything key that we haven't already discussed that I mean I always think that we can do better with everything that we that we offer for our colleagues however my aim and ambition really is to start to try to map out the route for capturing sort of talent talent development and succession planning as part of these conversations and these regular discussions about a performance in the organization so that's one of my aims if I could just come back very very briefly only because that that jumps back to the equalities work that really tries to capture the the free pillars including the qualities for staff I hope that there is some connection to that piece of work to connect up it's not just about check-ins of course it's of course the career progression the access to learning and development and and retaining good retaining staff thank you council weeks thank you for the report that's been provided one of the things that you touched on the beginning actually was the diverse sort of nature of these and kind of workforce and you know of course at the bottom of this report it talks about the equalities impact assessment I think that's the positives out of it I'm going to be probably less positive in my question now but I'm you know just going to sort of section 4.13 where it talks about the amber statuses that were received among staff from black backgrounds and you know with it being June which is designated as sort of men's mental health I'm sort of awareness mother I'd like to know sort of what is being done by the council to sort of understand you know if there's any context to why those amber statuses have been received you know from staffers of black backgrounds and also you know male colleagues as well I know that it says you know it's been reported to the trade unions maybe what have they said as well because you know we want to retain our best you know and diverse workforce but that area just seems to have been skirted over I mean I don't know some of our colleagues want to ask questions about it but I think we should really you know try to understand why those statuses have been received thank you so essentially we pulled out this data because there isn't any other statistically significant data relating to equalities obviously there is we reported a downward trend of people receiving amber statuses which saw an upward trend of green statuses however particularly as you say around males in our in our workforce and the we we have a challenge in the quality calendar of events that we plan out every year for our staff and that's led from my team as well as with in joint working with other teams across the council including internal communications and policy and strategy and so we try to put on events for our staff what we would like to do though because we recognize that there again are always areas that we can improve is that we want to go out more to frontline male staff to see what we can do around what they want to support but what I'm really clear with my team about is that I really don't want us to assume what they would like it needs to be an evidence-based decision so we need to go out and have conversations with them first in order to find out what would be most effective for them in the roles that they have and to be to match with their kind of lifestyles as well as work style as well I don't know if that's answered everything it sort of does but yeah I'm not sure putting on sort of activities and initiatives it's going to increase the performance of male colleagues but yeah yeah but for me it'd be good to understand what you're trying to do with staffers of sort of I'm sort of that backgrounds are you working with the staff networks you know are they giving you information because I mean if you're a staffer isn't it that you know you want to be happy and maybe the happiness and well-being and the conditions you know if for me I'm here because could be impacting the performance but it would be good to understand if there's sort of like a road map to understanding that yeah so council weeks what what what we saw in the very first cycle which was the one in July is and this was talking about being initiative process probably slightly higher prevalence of ambers in some of our frontline services and what we found what we know the profile of that is they have higher prevalence of male colleagues and higher prevalence of colleagues from black backgrounds in particular that was the kind of the driver was more probably slightly lower ratings in the frontline services that's what led to us having the conversations about the moderation are we being consistent are the descriptors of red number and green really clear are they being applied in the same way across all different worker types like you say diverse workforce in terms of the protected characteristics but also the nature of work that everybody does and so that's what we start to see when we went into the second cycle was it's starting to shift so that we were seeing a more balanced picture across the different grade types so we look at it through all those different lenses so that's why you start to see that downward trend as in as in that's a positive thing whereas it's it was it's balancing and more reflective of the workforce and I think that's probably just that learning point first cycle second cycle you start to see something shift in and continuing and then and that's what as actually we're saying we're going out to the services to say you know are these actual performance concerns and where there are making sure they're sign places to how they can access our performance improvement procedures because that should be a positive thing helping people to improve with a plan and support and development or is it just we've got a little bit of inconsistency in in how they've been applied and that's being you know raised essentially just just get clarification and again maybe it's an appropriate question but the four employees that you mentioned that were prevented from going up a grade were they all for black man I'm just to make sure that I've got this right so I think it was just when Julie mentioned that in the lead up to our March 24 sorry about the dates March 24 checking review period we had you know really publicized and had a communications campaign around us ensuring that if you received in a red status that you wouldn't be eligible for an increment if you were still eligible for an increment but know the four people weren't black hi yeah sorry cuz I wasn't on the previous committee I didn't want to add my two pence but what I was involved in was the task force when we was looking at a diverse workforce so I think to be honest it's quite disappointing to hear we're just gonna speak to the staff now I thought we were way ahead of that in terms of knowing what the concerns were the issues we've been having this conversation for a long time I remember having it when you first started as well Julie so to hear kind of we're starting those conversations it's really disappointing because I know the work that was done in terms of an internal first approach higher and that internal first approach was part of those from that cohort being promoted and what being done there so I just feel like it's you know what's going on really I'm not sure I understand I said about just starting a conversation is on something specific no I think I should was talking about having a conversation with particularly black men following on from Andrew's conversation and it sounded like it was that work was beginning whereas actually we've been told that works started many years ago sorry that I was just watching specifically to the question from counselor weeks around mental health and we would say that we were going to go out to ask more questions about what would be helpful for them as opposed to simply launching events or campaigns or activity that we assumed might be helpful we wanted to ask them directly about their mental health and how else we could help to support them in the workplace so I'm just going to bring a couple of questions that I have firstly do we do this approach with staff that are not on permanent contracts we have of course agency staff we have temporary workers what arrangements are in place for monitoring their performance bearing in mind that there will be some members of non-permanent staff that actually would have been working with us for many months and in some instances years and secondly I'd welcome your reflections upon whether this way of managing performance is actually translating into tangible improvements in service delivery because ultimately we want to drive improved performance so that there is a tangible difference for residents so taking that last question first chair one of the conversations we have had has been with our leads for performance and that now is starting to be able to see the picture of the statuses across the council the extent to which we can correlate that with the performance data that we have for the council and the services so we didn't want to be doing that initially as I said first year trying to make sure we had consistency and so on but one of the concerns we have which we reflected in the report is actually there are not very many colleagues who have got a red rating they're not even that many as a percentage colleagues who have received the number rating and actually does that mirror where we are seeing some of the high performance in the council some of the areas for improvement in the council so we have had that conversation we haven't started to do that from a data perspective yet but what we have initiated is some work with our colleagues in public health to do a lot more of a deep dive you know some of those experts in analytical work to look at the data in more interrogative way the question about agency workers the expectation is that an agency worker is performing and performing at a high level they are not subject to the same performance approach that we use for our colleagues when it comes to the check-ins but there is an expectation if a colleague is not performing on an agency basis at that assignment will be brought to an end and we will be seeking somebody else to be sent through for the agency to replace them just a quick follow-up on that what monitoring is there effectively from central HR of whether agency staff are being properly monitored in a sense there isn't a program there isn't a framework for that the conversations that we have at the corporate management team which are very regular and follow our quarterly reports where we look at the agency staff numbers is very much the move to temp to perm for those agency staff where there is a vacant post that can be moved into the recruitment campaigns and so on and as I said the conversation is generally it is expected that agency staff are performing or or their assignments shouldn't be continuing thank you before I finish off this item councilman I can see you want to come in sorry just on that sorry because it's just raises the question then too because as someone who's been on this committee for a number of years we do have some agency staff that for various reasons and most of them legitimate we can't even onto that permanent contract so it's just slightly concerning to see because it's just following on from what the chair was saying is that you know what sort of regular monitoring it's not because I don't think the check-ins are necessarily a case of kind of the micromanager but sometimes it's about issues being brought to light and so I'm just wondering that because you talk about a lack of framework and maybe there's something for you to go away and think about because if we have long-term agency staff and they're not part of that check-in framework then you know they they could be with us for a year too and there is no checking in with them so I don't I'm not it's not a case of just you know just and this is why these scrutiny committees are quite useful because issues come up and and I think just from your questioning has made me think actually we do have an and it's not I've been talking about the studio as you know agency staff seem to be with us for quite a while especially in those M tech and IT and some of those issues so someone could be with us for two years and not having that direct kind of check-in formal check-in with their managers so it was just maybe a point through you chair that we may need to kind of make some recommendations on that council weeks I think you wanted to come in on it was just around those areas which because your intro which was around IT where you know we can't get sometimes to work for so we do have them on agency contracts and you know they provide you know critical service to the council so yeah for me I think we do need to check in with them thank you so just hopefully a few points that's helpful and I'm speaking from personal experience of managing agency members in my team during my time here at Slinton as well so whereas we wouldn't expect managers to when we say kind of go through the check-in process we mean we don't need a submission during the check-in review because they're not our employee they're not a direct employee of ours however absolutely 100% our managers know that they need to manage the performance of their agency staff and so we offer so for example I know that when my agency team joined that I have to set up objectives what they're working towards a plan of action and we measure measure that regularly so I have check-ins and managers will have check-ins with their agency staff it just won't be a formalized check-in isn't in check-in review check-ins process am I confusing the issue by saying the word check-in too much so essentially we are asking managers to have those conversations about performance with their agency staff and that and that's clearly and that's set out in guidance for agency staff members as well as managers and also we've throughout learning and development offers for management development as well so just bringing everything to a close I think I'm the committee would appreciate a check-in in about 12 months time with the probe sorry guys with the progress that has been made I think including some reflections on performance management of agency staff particularly long-term agency staff and I think you've got some observations as well thank you chair and just on the point that council also made regarding a connection to previous other works the BAME pay gap work that a few of us against an existing around the table did a few years ago and it nicely connects to the likes of this sort of performance and support for for staff and how that affects the services and staff retention progress I wonder if in addition to that 12-month check-in on this check-in that we also connect that with the wider piece of work with that the qualities the recommendations from the equality is check-in and then we can see how that all is starting to connect together something I'll take and this this do not even I'll give you leave the final word on it yes just real quickly to add this is a massive challenge and actually in a year to do a massive organizational change it's things huge and well done for doing that the first place and I think four point one four kind of outlines where you've said that there's still areas to be worked on so for me I think another thing that could be quite useful to be put in is when we are talking about ambition is to what be the key performance indicators for green amber and red so that we can do a bit more tracking in terms of how we're working towards that thank you I just I would like to add with the ruin one this is the one of the question I'm asking since is linked on stuff is not reflecting is linked on demographic and how I would like to see within er the performance how is linked on BME on the top five level yet what is the level in now and after yeah what gonna be there the top five level stuff which can reflect is linked on demographic before I bring Julie back in this is a performance management review there will be other opportunities in the scrutiny year to look at what I would call workforce issues more generally there will be particular KPIs that we will look at and I think that's the appropriate time to look at that this report is very much an update on the performance management issues that's what I think the committee has in mind with the additions that other committee members have raised but focused in on performance management because we will be picking up on other issues through the year so Julie Astrid any final yep briefly Jason I'm just what is it that this mention about data data data because I'm just wondering are they worried are they any set of data you feel you're missing or how you sort of want to think about analyzing that going forward knowing the current climate and the tools that are available just why you summarizing I think that would be great to know thank you Johnson and I think the database it's just so important and something like this and I think no we've there's not data missing as such and what we're trying to do is get the combination looking at the quantitative data getting the anecdotal feedback so the qualitative using the colleague survey as well and and then also with their support of those public health colleagues to be able to correlate some of that and the point that chair was making around performance of the organization this is performance of staff so data is absolutely integral to everything that we're doing here and will continue to be the point that I was going to make in response to what council can talk I was just saying is the annual workforce report is due back here in November what we have used that before is an opportunity to reinforce some of the improvements we've been making around art we call our challenge and quality program I think that's now I realize that's what council as to me I was talking about so significant works being undertaken over the last few years on that following on from working group so that will be an opportunity for us to talk about all the engagement we have been carried carrying out all the different interventions that we've kind of introduced in particular coming back to Councillor Jackson's points around data the improvements around the inclusive recruitment work for example and what that's actually demonstrating the difference that has made and it will also be able to show some of the again quite significant headway that we've made in representation the more senior levels in the organization that Councillor Chowdhury has a particular interest in so that will be coming back in November so we look forward to seeing that in November and having the update in 12 months time on this report I think all that remains for me to do is to thank you for all the hard work over the last 12 months in developing this approach and to thank you for your time tonight and formally the committee needs to note the report we note the report thank you thank you you and I should have said this at the start once you finish your item feel free to go or stay as you please oh dear look we'll never leave what I want to do with the next two topics selection of scrutiny topic and provisional work plan is discuss them together because effectively what we are doing is shaping our work as a committee over the next 12 months I think what would be a useful exercise before we start is to actually hear from the other scrutiny chairs as to what their ideas are and where their thinking is around the topics that they are likely to be covering and what some of their priorities are because that will inform where we go because we want to avoid duplication if our scrutiny can be complementary so much the better but I'll stop talking I'll take it effectively in in order so I think just looking at our social capital especially in terms of procurement I think that's something obviously where procurement you know as counselors it's not something that we necessarily involved in it's a council procedure we understand that I feel like the social capital aspect of it is something that's not driven long it's not driven enough and there's so much flexibility creativity into it so I would like to actually see what is the council how is the council holding people accountable to deliver social capital in our communities and also just I'm looking forward to that report in November because although this was performance there was a lot that came from that that was related to performance and I would have assumed that some of that it would have been built on to that so I was included mental health so I think yeah I'm looking forward to the November report but that would be something I'm keen to bring back because there was a lot of enthusiasm at the time and I'd just like to hope that that wasn't formative thank you in terms of what children's and family scrutiny is looking at doing what are your thoughts at the moment what your scrutiny topic is likely to be and the focus of the committee because that's really what I want to get a sense of from the other committee chairs so that there is no danger of us treading on any committee's toes but also to see how that informs what our thinking is I provisionally it's we are looking a lot around mental health and young people particularly the link between school absences in secondary schools because I know that's been an issue that a lot of parents and members have raised and I think within looking at that would be looking at social capital what the universal youth offer offers so I think it will quite open quite a lot of doors which is what will it quite nicely in with what's you know in PMP and also special guardianships so that is something that you know I've been really keen on since being elected what support we have for children under special guardianships and when they turn into adults this care package that is all isn't existent at the moment with the new homes and community yes we are keen on looking at the community side of that news crew in a set up and one of the areas with conversation that possibly could happen it's around our community centers and deliveries around that not yet been adopted by the four committee so I can't I'm guided by what the committee might actually want to scrutinize but I think I will be leaning strongly on around the community centers deliveries of services I think there's a piece of work on going around that as well so we try to sing that with some report that might be coming out around that but definitely on our community centers just on that community centers the assets that we hold as a local authority within the community more generally I'm thinking about libraries in particular that has been a constant theme of some of the discussions that I've been having with members of this committee and also some of the discussions that I've been having with officers and executive members that they would very much welcome a scrutiny around that it also fits in I think very well with the discussions that I've been having with some people on this committee around procurement social capital how we look at that so I think that would be a scrutiny topic that would be very welcomed by a number of members and also officers oh thanks yeah yeah so we have delayed our environment climate change and transport meeting to July because of the election but my wonderful clerk Emma met with the officers and they talked about intelligence intelligent street cleansing methods and so my inclination is to look at greening our streets so those two things will go together but I still have to consult the committee about what they would like to see happen so bring news when we have done that no thanks for that that's a really helpful steer casa Chaudry thank you same yes like on the I haven't met with my new committee yet our meeting is different because of the election the question is last year we focus of the main thing is adult social care access point like what's the problem people facing and also GP service but this year I was thinking the problem is the funding overspent adult social your funding if we as this committee can look holistic way whole financial review yeah that means I'm not going to focusing that one yeah because this is the main issue for the Islington Council because of the adult social care children's service is overspent yet and and I had a meeting two to three meeting I did not get proper plan how we can overcome this five more than five million now I will discuss it my member what they think and within the this overspent this is a main issue because of the shelter accommodate so you care whom provision hospital transfer this we spend lots of money there that means there is shortage of because this is something is going to overlap with the housing and and yet because the shortage of the care home provision and another one is that provision is money the children service children who to the adulthood there's a money killing there yeah this is two main area overspent is happening there and I will discuss with this whole thing with my committee member and also I'll talk to Executive Councilor here because we need to help our reshape adult social care and we'll focus on this is if we choose at this committee the holistic way to look our finance yeah that means I'm not going to focusing that one is that because finance is going to discuss everything then I'll focus on adults care home and other but it's depend on what other member going to choose so I think as a general principle what this committee will have overall oversight on is the financial position of the council if there is for example monitoring on particular savings that is what we will look at but it's very much the space of the individual committees to look at what I would call the policy solutions to the financial challenges that we face we do not have frankly the time or the expertise that the other committees have to look in detail at their particular areas so as far as I think we are all concerned if what your committee wanted to do was look in detail at the challenge that the long-term pressures that we all know about in adult social care are bringing to the council and how we can look at long-term funding solutions to that that is exactly what your committee ought to be looking at because this committee cannot do deep dives into everything and what it will of course pick up on as part of the budget monitoring that we do our where when we get the quarterly outcomes there are particularly significant variances that is what this committee is really set up to do but the more long-term thinking that is for the individual scrutiny committees to do and I hope that's a helpful steer to all the other committees about the approach that I think this committee ought to be taking I'm not seeing any dissent from the committee about that and I'm certainly in terms of your work I hope to continue what was started last year there being regular meetings of the scrutiny chairs just really check in with each other about progress made on the screepiness but also what's arising from your own individual scrutiny committees that perhaps ought to be fed into this committee and where this committee wants to delegate particular areas of concern to your committees so I think that's been a really helpful session in terms of what your individual committees are likely to be touching upon I'm gonna say a few things about where I think this committee is probably heading in terms of its scrutiny topic for this year and then what I want to do is effectively go around the room and ask all of you what you think the particular priorities are for the scrutiny universe as a whole to be looking at to make sure that across the picture we are picking up areas of concern and interest to members and adventures generally so where I've got to on my thinking I stress this is my thinking but very much informed from conversations that I've been having with committee members is we haven't really had a look at community wealth building across scrutiny in detail largely because it's a relatively new department and it's something that is relatively new in terms of what the council has been doing we have immense purchasing power as a local authority we procure services we deliver services and a question that I've been pondering is when we procure services are we getting social value what social capital are we getting what can we do as a council to use the levers that we have to deliver not just best value for money in terms of a pure commercial value for money but what can we do with regard to ensuring that we get for example apprenticeships affordable workspaces that we get workforce that we challenge inequality and tackle inequality through the use of our procurement powers we all know there are limits to what we can do because there are statutory rules around procurement but still the phrase that came up in some of the discussions that I've been having with officers and executive members how are we spending the Islington pound to get best value and it also feeds into a question that I know has concerned a lot of members of the council around insourcing the outsourcing should we be insourcing more notwithstanding the fact that on a sort of narrow balance sheet or for profit and loss basis it might be more expensive how when we do outsource and procure services do we ensure a that we get proper social value how are we measuring it how are we ensuring that promises are actually delivered upon I mean that's just a very broad outline of where we could go and you know I welcome your views in the course discussion we're about to have on a whether that actually is a good workable topic for us to look into and where we would like to go with the idea we don't set the sit and we can't possibly begin to do that so it is a scrutiny initiation document for those who aren't familiar with the job but to get a sense of where we want to look so that myself maybe a couple of others of us can get involved in coming up with a draft for the July meeting so what I'm gonna do is go round the room starting with the scrutiny proposal I just put and secondly one topic that you would like to see covered in the scrutiny universe either by this committee or by the other committees just so we have a sense of what our priorities ought to be thank you I think really building sounds like brilliant yeah I think it's quite large umbrella that can capture a lot and I think we'll get lots of really good ideas I'm very minded with the offices and executive members that we have behind us and that they probably really wishes to be looking at the finances with very fine comb and coming up with ideas because of the financial situation that the council is in and so I think if the health scrutiny committee continues to look at all social care I think that would be amazing and it would free us essentially to look at the redefined name of this committee which doesn't involve the word economy and I think it's worth having a look at not just the procurement power of the council but we are very large council and I think when we do essentially sell our services and I might be corrected but we probably make about 1.5 million which to me for such a large council doesn't sound like too big a figure so I think having a look at how we've got amazing workforce as we know can deliver an excellent service so seeing how potentially that could bring in some money and relieve some of the pressure for us to be able to continue to provide an excellent service council weeks thank you yeah and for me I like the idea also of scrutinizing how we spend the Islington pound because you know the cost of living is something that you know my inbox sees a number of sort of queries and you know questions around signpost in I was one of the counselors that was a bit disappointed to not see community safety come back to this committee in the restructure and yeah I would like that topic to be scrutinized and to be able to question my quality counselor wolf around community safety especially cross-border issues because my award I'm sort of you know crosses over with Hackney and also you know it may come up my quality counts Jackson's committee but home building so building more homes because that's the two things my inbox sort of really sees thank you thank you and so in reverse order I think I was wondering whether this would be the right committee to review some of the equalities work I mean partly also just jumping off what we heard in that earlier item that there have been a range of strands a range of initiatives and kind of where are we what is meaningfully being done in something that many of us very passionate about and drove us to maybe seek representation in the first place and I kind of wonder about that and I I think community wealth building would be amazing and also bearing in mind it is new or I did wonder that might be more appropriate to look at next year I mean who knows who'll be on this committee next year but I just was thinking about see like a sequencing thing and what's the most urgent it's not like don't think that that needs doing but from my point of view I wonder whether some of the kind of equalities scrutiny feels a bit more like pressing an urgent happy to be told otherwise no and I'm just on that point I met with Councillor Chapman this afternoon one of the issues around equalities and scrutiny is actually the lack of data the lack of a structure at the moment around how we monitor performance and I think the feeling was it's probably premature to have a scrutiny focused around an equalities based topic that may be where we go next year depending upon the committee but and there's a big but here clearly there needs to be a real focus on equalities and the revised portfolio that Councillor Chapman have that very squarely falls within this department so that brings me on I'm going to keep going around the table but it brings me on to the working group around KPIs and monitoring of effectively the performance indicators that we are getting because a real focus of that group I think needs to be getting a set of KPIs coming to this committee so that there can be this year some meaningful scrutiny of that directorate so what I am looking for on that I think is somebody to lead on the KPIs and two or three volunteers to work on that and I'll be part of that group as well but not taking the lead on it with a view to coming back by September with I think two things firstly a set of metrics that we actually want to look at in this committee which may be different from the metrics that go to corporate management board because we're interested in different things and second and just as a sort of rider to that we don't want to be overburdened by data because there needs to be a focus and we can't look at absolutely everything so sorting out our priorities on that and also thinking a little bit around how we bring the data to this committee because we don't have to have all the data every three months very often I'm actually looking at certain metrics every three months not talking about budget out and say that's something very different but some of the other data that historically we've got on this committee actually is better I think dealt with perhaps thematically every 12 months with a focus every three months on a particular topic for example equalities then perhaps looking at resident experience and looking at the data in a thematic way so I'm anybody prepared to lead on that and I look to my vice chair first because I actually think vice chairs should have a meaningful role within committees or whatever else why do we have vice chairs however I do want to open it up in case there's anybody across the table that feels that they want to take on a more leadership role otherwise we can of course work together as part of a small group to look at KPIs and anybody who wants to volunteer show your hand now or if not just email I see Sara I see Ernie anybody else want to get involved in this no no no not at all I'm looking for anybody if you are somebody who loves data and sort of wants to get involved so we share as much as I would love to there are some very intense some of that just I think I will be stretching myself but um if not I would have loved to you said data and I would have loved to but um you have got to write something yeah it involved and it's probably one of those things that a smaller group will be more more productive so moving on counts the stuff thank you don't repeat everything that everybody says because I pretty much agree with most of that I'm glad show that you mentioned and community while feeling procurement I've emailed you about this as well so absolutely in agreement to clear on insourcing outsourcing and how we get best value around and that in terms of other topics looking at council Jackson absolutely echo counsel the weeks and just making sure that that the report we did on ASB does not get lost and just sitting a bit so that there is a bit of follow-up around that and to make sure that those recommendations are being implemented fully and that there's a review that consistently happens there and to kind of channel council Convery when he was on this committee as well looking at council Clark and issues around the parking revenue has come up over and over again with with this committee in terms of what happens in parking and environment so it might be something to look at going forward in your committee and the scrutiny around that and then again just I'm quite glad to see although we lost community safety I'm glad to see we have the executive member for inclusive economy culture and jobs coming because I think looking at particularly around cultural strategy and there is as well as really important so yeah yeah thank you chair and it's actually year to reiterate something that council hide mentioned you know we as a council spoke about Ferrer together a number of years ago and and I do think you know if we keep putting this off I think we're just kicking the can down the road and saying that the team is is is too premature to be scrutinized in equalities just you know there are so many things that we could be looking at but I just realized that it Ferrer together just doesn't all kind of that equality strand just doesn't sit kind of anywhere else across you know I'm looking at my colleagues across the table and and but the other stuff there's like a few things that I think I think if I'm thinking about it from a resident perspective you know where the council has got into some hot bother recently is around things like and I'm looking at my colleague Councillor Jackson to probably drill into things like you know what how will we responded to the ombudsman you know the damper mold stuff and and finally you know as colleagues on this committee will know I think a very keen interest in resident experience and you know how we're tracking that potentially and but again I do like the idea of procurement it has come up and and I genuinely think as born and bred is Lintonian we should be spending and maximizes is some pound and so things like you know how many of our local businesses that circular economy piece speaks to me and so I don't disagree with your wider point but I'm putting it out there for colleagues to please make sure that there's other pieces those on strings are not lost as part of the year of scrutiny absolutely and I think on the topic of complaints it is something that I am troubled by and I'm using the language as diplomatically as I can we need to have a real focus on this committee on complaints our response the complaints the resident experience work that Council Ward has been leading on whether we do that as part of one of our themed performance reviews whether we pick it up in detail when Council Ward presents his report I think I want to do a little bit of thinking around the best way of doing that but I'm sure the message will come back from tonight loud and clear this committee will have a real focus this year on monitoring how we are addressing the backlog of complaints and making sure that the quality of our responses where residents raise concerns is of the quality that we would expect thank you chair council over him has nicely covered I think the connections that I wanted to also make I think I agree with him that there is scope and opportunity to connect your idea of the broad scrutiny topic to those white pieces corporate pieces of the council and political ambition in terms of qualities very together resident experience etc and the other thing that pops to mind I believe you slightly mentioned it so it's just to perhaps reiterate things like looking at affordable workspaces cap the capitals program and essentially all of our council assets and any partnerships that we have how are we getting the most out of them when it comes to social value and the impact that it's having on our community it however does relate a bit I'd say to cancer Jason Jackson's a point where he's looking at community centers so there's probably an aspect of not creating overlap but perhaps where is the connection yes I think that's something very much to feed into our review if we adopt that around the social value aspects of it with council the Jackson's we look almost looking in a more granular way at the community center piece which is something where I think I've said earlier on a number of members of race concerns over a number of years about where we're going with that I'm going to bring council the Pandora in next simply because you haven't said anything yet and I'd well be obvious before going back to the other scrutiny chairs I want to go back to what council Hyde was saying and I think I had a chat with you on the phone obviously all the issues are important but what really upsets me is I do not know what a fairy together means in terms of what does it mean what we're spending our money on how our residents actually accessing this very together because it's a big fancy name but if I don't understand what it means then how are the residents going to understand it there's a community out there that we're not reaching we're not accessing they're not using our services where I understand our services are really good because we trump it all the time but the community that I'm speaking to do not access the services they feel disillusioned they're scared we need to have a proper partnership with Islington and the residents we keep hearing about hard to reach hard to reach but is it really hard to reach why should be labeled as hard to reach we need to be there in the community not just it in the town hall and also it all goes back down to if we don't understand what fair together means then how are these residents ever going to be able to access housing ever be able to access employment ever be able to improve their educational prospects so it's it's everything and even when it comes to the complaints a lot of my residents that I'm working with they get fed up on the phone because no one listens to them and then obviously they don't even know how to access their counselors because they don't know that counselors exist so I'm always obviously out and about in the community and I work for a charity and because I work for the charity that I'm able to go into people's homes and tell them all about the wonderful work that our counselors do and I do a lot of casework all of you as well don't even tell anyone I just do it but the point is that there's certain residents out there that do not know that we exist or the services that exist so I know that Ferrer Together is not a portfolio or it's not committee that we need to discuss but it needs to be discussed I think it's really important I've been a counselor for two years I've been hearing Ferrer Together I don't know how much money we put in it but what are we doing our social our leisure centers what activities are there out there for everybody who's accessing these activities which part of the community so I would like to see that data so that we can eventually make isn't it and fairer I think just on that I met with Councillor Chapman today I think it's probably fair to say that one of her biggest challenges is what is the future for Ferrer Together how does it what does it mean because it's been through a number of iterations in the time that I've been a counselor I'm can I leave it in this way can I speak with Councillor Chapman she was scheduled to come in March I think it might be helpful and I'm looking in particular at the possibly the November meeting just for effectively for her to come with a very short update on where her thinking has got to I think she needs to be given the space over the next few months to think through what do I want to do with Ferrer Together but I think if it's subject to just looking at the work program and it's subject to her views on it what I'm sensing is we as a committee would welcome a sort of progress update from her as to the direction of travel for the directorate because it's clear that there is real concern as to actually where is that directorate heading in for understandable reasons so Jonathan can you give that a little bit of thought it looks to me just looking at the with the work program November seems about the right time just looking at the you know the workload to bring that back and I know that Councillor Chapman will be very keen to come and share her views on that so at least we have I'm going to use the phrase check-in a check-in at that stage as to where things are going with perhaps the main scrutiny of her directorate coming in March once you've actually got a sense of where it's going the direction is heading in the only reason it's important to me is that that Ferrer together affects every single scrutiny that we have in Islington so that's why it's so important thank you I think the topic he was talking is a really important one just giving example like you know that everything for my older people what the problem the facing when they call yeah they're getting our half an hour to take the call yet and we did discuss this year how we can improve this one and their system was now newly system record like as I'm professional just I give you one example last week I raised their safeguarding concern yeah as legal counsel does a modern system you putting then I will receive anything then I call to the council ask them why is my proof that I raise a safeguarding yeah then some of these are send me email because I identify myself I'm a counselor cushion is what the service are our resident getting yeah second question is when we did a witness evidence yeah resident raised the cushion that even our counselors inquiry was ignored yeah and this is a service if resident did not get proper answer didn't get the like you know that when they call the council they should say how I can help you this simple word yeah is not getting this title and that's and we should have a some kind of mechanism to monitor this thing to how many this is going to be our outcome this year to say how long the call and what what is the outcome how many call they receive this is our focus on second thing is like a regarding that you said that we do buy so many thing for the for is linked on council and every time I say how we can promote is linked on a business because you can see the especially look about that any I can give you the domestic learning care yeah the big big company came with big big decorative like money to get portfolio and everything they get the contact but small organization from the is linked on they can't get the contact because they have gone to the X party then I was talking the last how we can support them to get is linked on people to get the contact yeah and also regarding another you said how beautiful money and we discuss and our my when I was a policy chair of the social care in-house terms in here and we are told every about 70 pound per hour then and I think is counselors time we did discuss and we are the accommodation to in-house that was in the care it came 30 pound or something I forgot that 70 to 30 came this is when when we do discuss something yet we should discuss the officers should think about not outsourcing that mentally should be in sourcing the anything for the council and they need to know that we as a counselor we fought in if it's possible in sourcing rather than our sensing thank you so I think those are the sort of topics that we can pick up assuming that we do run with the overarching speaking topic that I propose I know that council award wants to come in on some of the comments that have been made so far thanks chair just to say counselor Choudry Choudry on your first point about the contact center I'd be really interested in any kind of specific examples you have there and the contact center has been literally transformed over the last few months there's a brand new system and satisfaction rates are much much higher than they were we're seeing more calls being answered we're seeing less weight in time and we're seeing fewer calls because people aren't having to pull up twice three times four times so if there's if you've got I'm getting casework from all concerts with kind of specific examples and getting that from right across the council but the best way act the best way I can kind of try and do something about this is if you've got those specific examples please do send them straight to me because I need all of this for feedbacks you haven't used it so much working thanks I'll take comes to the children briefly and then move on to cancel part thank you as my colleague said it look at and I will talk to him personally and give that a rather than open well the last policy performance meeting we've got a stark warning really about the state of our budget and we're going to be facing really severe cuts and because of this government's lack of funding for this council and so I would welcome anything I welcome anything where we we protect our services you know so whatever however we can fundraise to protect our fun frontline services for people and you know when I say fundraise I mean you know the idea of the circular economy is about making you know community wealth building making income and the Environment Committee we actually had a scrutiny one before this one about in making each strand of the council look at community well look at the circle economy in their strand and how they were integrating into that area so yeah it's I think we're on the right track if we're looking at circle economy community wealth building and procurement and how to how to protect services how to make as few cuts as possible and I just want to say that leisure is also on my committee and you know isn't in when people come from outside isn't and they say they just can't believe how we give free swimming to over 60s you know they just it's like this it's nowhere else in the country I don't think so it's like we we need to protect these vital services and I think it's a strand is coming out of again a number of contributions income generation how we can maximize that it's something that we can usefully focus in on particularly on some of the performance indicators because it stands to reason more income we generate the more we can do to protect our frontline services thanks I'm super excited about this scrutiny topic that we could possibly adopt I think I've been a keen believer on procurement procurement procurement how that is being carried out there are as we sort of look to the seed further on I mean as I was gonna play out further on I would sort of like to know more around I think a couple of their colleagues have raised that in terms of how do we use our procurement to bring real value to the life of people in this Linton I think there's an element to also if depending on the scope we could actually look at legacy contracts when it comes to procurement because they tend to be we have quite a few of those that has gone on over the years and it just seems to you and I guess maybe we just happy with you know things but I think some legacy contract is worth to actually look at in terms of does it bring this value I don't know what the legality might be but this is an area that one things we can look at the other part about this is the timing of our procurement and the social value to preparing specifically the young people for the future how do we tie that into what opportunities we create specifically for young people the jobs for the future there is a literally a train that I believe are part of our procurement could really bring that some conversation about what does the job for the future looks like when we are going around doing this procurement does it time does it fit into that vision we're talking about tech we're talking about and and then also how prepared are we as a council to adapt to what could happen in future and how do we position ourselves to be leaders in what we can see happening based on geographic location of where we are - we talk we talk about places like the Minnesotan Valley which is the old street how we capitalize on that what our neighbors in Camden have done the other side of the road and we take thinking ahead and I think part of the conversation around procurement should feed into some of that especially know we're gonna have the exact member from community where I think this kind of fits into wider pieces of work that might be already going so I'm super excited I look forward to this but the other part I wanted to say that we should keep an eye on is and I think we've mentioned this is the agency stuff I think that I don't know how we're gonna do that we've heard about it so long there needs to be chair how do we where does that sit but we it's something that I believe as a company we really need to keep an eye on and the last not least is my colleague Trish Trisha about what you do there I think there has been a few numbers around I think we had an objective that might be fulfilled but in the same timeline is reflected in big financial issues so I would like to know what how do for example we've we've had a very decrease in terms of revenue generated from you know parking how does that affect so I would really want how your team have how do we balance a conversation would keep into our net zero and the other side of it so I it would be interesting to see if you can probe a little bit more to find out what that team is doing around that because are we getting value for money or we just driven by the net zero that's something I would like to know thank you and finally thank you chair like Councillor Jackson aren't actually I'm quite excited about this potential scrutiny topic being social capital I do echo what my colleague says it's had said about the qualities and I don't think we can look at social capital without looking at equality so I would like that to be the main vein running through social capital and also having a previous insight I think where we need to begin is what is the what is how is the council preparing the groundwork to attract bids because there's no point in us really delving into this if there isn't the groundwork to attract bids that are going to you know have the same vision as us or on the same page as this forever together strategy and also before they're big there is a clear message what we expect as a council what we expect in Islington in terms of providing social capital to those from ethnic backgrounds black backgrounds and we should be very clear and not really shy away from making that you know really obvious but yes as I said I think that should be kind of our focus whilst looking at this thank you all for your contributions it's been I think really helpful to share this a in terms of shaping this committee's priorities but also I'm sensing that we are collectively comfortable with the overall scrutiny topic to help Jonathan with the unenviable task of doing a first draft of the scrutiny initiation document but also to start thinking about what witness evidence we would want it's going to be a living breathing document and what I would really welcome from all of you is if over the next few days you have any thoughts really around the discussion that we have had around areas of focus where you think it would be helpful to have witness evidence from if you can email me I'll put it all together in a document and as far as the work plan is concerned what I'd like us to do is sort of provisionally agree this plan but I want to sit and have a think about not expanding this but providing a little bit more detail about what we're going to be covering in the individual sessions and just have a think around what additional sessions we can fit in bearing in mind what I think said to some of you before this meeting commenced we have only got limited scrutiny time and there is a temptation to add more and more things we have to be quite clever about how we utilize our scrutiny time but again I'd welcome your suggestions offline around how we can utilize scrutiny time that we have got with either getting something in shape so that we can agree the work plan agree to see it at our next meeting so is everybody happy with that as an approach and Jonathan from your point of view from a minute's point of view are you happy that you have got enough from tonight to be able to do your work I am yes I did want to follow up on one comment about a couple of comments made from the committee so I know the scrutiny committees have been restructured and certain responsibilities now now sit elsewhere to remind members that any Councillor can attend any meeting with scrutiny committee and can speak with the permission of the chair so if there is a topic you're particularly interested in coming up to know the committee you are very welcome to attend in which case I think as far as this meeting is concerned we've covered what we needed to cover just to give a very brief opportunity if anybody wants to raise anything that they think they want to mention about in particular the work plan before we close not looking for anybody to contribute but if there is any burning suggestions from anybody or any comments they want to make speak now I don't see any hands up so I'm going to conclude the meeting thank you all for coming tonight and for your contributions and in particular thank you to Jonathan who has seen far too much of me over the past few days