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Licensing & Appeals Committee - Tuesday, 26th March, 2024 6.00 pm
March 26, 2024 View on council website Watch video of meeting or read trancriptTranscript
Well, ladies and gentlemen, we have approached and are at the bewitching hour of 1800 hours. So thank you everybody for attending the Licensing and Appeals Committee held at the Town Hall Bank Road Matlock. Steve Wayne, I'm the Chair of the Licensing Committee and Appeals Committee. To my right is Eileen Tierney and to her right is Grace Dausen, both from the Licensing department and also to my left is the force-listed Archimmee, the council's solicitor James Cunningham. What I'd like to do before we start anything this evening, it is Eileen's last committee this evening, so I just want to read a bit of something because Eileen Tierney is retiring after 36 years with us. She joined as an admin assistant and committee clerk at the end of 1987, having worked up the road at the county council's library service for the previous 10 years. She was promoted to administration officer in the community services department in 2001, the transfer of alcohol and licensing from magistrates court to the district council resulted in the creation of a specialist licensing team, which she has been manager because of ever since, and basically, it's basically that she's going to retire and leave this organization on Thursday. So I'd like to say thank you very much on behalf of everybody here, if that's okay, and thank you for your time and I sincerely hope that you look forward to traveling the world and watching cricket and fulfilling your bucket list with Mr. Braun. Eileen, thanks very much for your time, it's been a pleasure working with you, thank you. Right, we're moving on, any apologies please for absence, thank you. Thank you Chair, we've received apologies from Councillors Gretrix, Butler, Flitter and Hobson. Thank you very much, the next thing is the approval of the minutes of the previous meeting, that was the meeting dated the 5th of December to 2023, has everybody had opportunity to read those meetings, would anybody like to move that we, Councillor Frank's moves it, Councillor Dobbs seconds it, all those in favour of proving the minutes, are you, you're up there, all those abstaining, anybody against? So there's two abstentions but that motion is carried, thank you very much. The next thing is interests, has anybody got any interest that they wish to disclose? That's a no, before we move on to public participation I just want to state that item 8 of this evening's or 7 and 8 of this evening's meeting will be deferred off to another date, so just so that we're all aware. We'll move on to the rest of this evening which is public participation, we have one person who wishes to speak in public participation, that's Mr John Greenoff who's the area business manager for 24/7, Mr Greenoff, would you like to sit in this seat here and in front of you as a microphone if you push the little button, your microphone will go red and then you're on, okay, thank you. Good evening, I just want to give some reassurance, so you should, you grant the exemption on the age of the wheelchair access vehicles about the maintenance regimes, myself, I'm a fully qualified motor engineer, 43 years in the business, we have a rigorous maintenance regime for the vehicles, obviously they're tested twice a year in your own workshops, we have a defect reported system that the drive is complete every day online, obviously we action those defects straightaway, the vehicles maintained locally, we have a regardless of cost maintenance policy, the vehicles are very important to us and also important to the county as a chronic shortage of these vehicles, we've even invested as a company in buying our own conversion company and we still can't make them quickly enough, unfortunately. The vehicles are all under 100,000 miles, there's nothing wrong with them, they've not reached the end of their life, they've probably got another 100,000 miles in them, any questions with regards to maintenance regime? It's your statement now, we will go into a debate about it later on and then we will be asking questions of Eileen. Could you explain a bit about 24/7 is and what you do please? 24/7 is a specialist provider of SCN transport, that's all we do, we're not the taxi company. Just to clarify our special educational needs, that's fine, sorry. We work exclusively in Derbyshire for Derbyshire County Council, we don't conduct any other business so it's purely working with the county on SCN transport. Thank you, if there's nothing else for you to put forward, you can go and sit back there and listen to what we've got to say and all right, thank you, right, we've done public participation. Item five on the agenda is the request for exemption from taxi licence in policy requirement, maximum amaze limit, alluding to what Mr Greenoff has just been talking about and I'll ask Eileen to present the report please. Thank you, Chair. So yes, as you've just heard, Mr Greenoff's made a request for an exemption from the Council's taxi licensing policy requirement regarding the maximum amage that we're licence vehicles for that purpose. So the report explains that at the moment the Council's taxi licensing policy requires any vehicle that's licensed as a techno or private hire vehicle, not to be more than 10 years old at the first time of licensing. It's unusual that somebody would put one on that was nine and a half years old for example, we would expect anything under 10 years old, we would licence up until it's 10 years old. It's a policy requirement, not all councils have a maximum amage limits on their licensed vehicles but what we do, it was introduced when our policy was first introduced I think back in 2009 and it was introduced purely really to it up the standards for want to have a better way of putting it up the standard of the licence vehicles that we've got in the district at the time. With regard to this particular request, 24/7 limited licence, a lot of vehicles with this council, all purely SEN transport contracts but not necessarily fully wheelchair accessible vehicles so I think we're licensing something up around the, probably around the 100, 100 vehicles for them now with these I think they've got eight that are what we would call fully wheelchair accessible. In the report in appendix two, we've listed the six vehicles that Mr Greenoff has requested are considered for licensing after they reach 10 years, I mean you'll see in appendix two on page 17 I think it is of the papers that some are still a couple of years to go, some or eight years, eight months, whatever, seven years, six years but obviously in terms of planning ahead for the business and they're wanting us supposed to ensure that if these vehicles are capable of continuing to be licensed even if it means additional inspections for the extra years if the committee were minded to go that way, then at least they know that we're not going to run out so to speak, they're still going to be able to fulfil the contracts they've got with the Derbyshire County Council. So I don't think, I mean the report's fairly self-explanatory chair, it explains that you can, although we have a policy and the policy states that is a maximum age limit, it's like any policy requirement, policies are a starting point and they're open to two exemptions if, to having an exemption granted, if the committee so wishes, I mean if the policy were to be, if we were forever to be coming back to committee or council, asking for revisions or exemptions to the policy then it would indicate that we probably haven't got the policy right. With regard to age exemption of vehicles, I think we've probably in the last 15 years only dealt with three or four requests for that, they've tended to be more for novelty vehicles so on to a better word, so you know 1926 vintage type vehicles which couldn't possibly comply with either the ten year, maximum age limit or a lot of the other requirements of the vehicle spec but that's the sort of exemptions that have been requested. So this is the first time we've had a request for fully wheelchair accessible vehicles and that's really all I've got to say at the moment Chair, if there are any questions I'm happy to answer them. Thank you very much Eileen, has anybody got any questions that they wish to ask in relation to the report please? Councillor Dobs first, sorry. Thank you Chair. Clearly there's a huge need for these, the downside, would I be right in saying there may be in terms of age of engine technology, a quality impact by keeping these older vehicles on the road? Through you Chair, not my area of expertise but I would imagine so, I would imagine that there would be some impact, how much I wouldn't know, and looking at the age of them, the ones that Mr Green was talking about, the earliest is 2015, so then what, 9, 10 years old vehicles at the moment obviously, which is why we're here, I'm not the right person to ask about the impact on air quality but I'm sure there'd be somebody in the Council who could answer that question for you if you wanted me to refer it to them. Thank you, well obviously we made the decision tonight so I just, it's just the other side of the coin. Thank you. Thank you Councillor Dobs, Councillor Boynton. Thank you, I think I probably know the answer to this already but it's not mentioned in the report and I think just for clarification, I just wondered if there has been any other issues with any of the other vehicles and by this company that you're aware of? When you say issues? Well problems, any problems with any of the other vehicles, poor maintenance or anything of that issue. Oh no definitely not no, in fact I spoke to our mechanics down at the Northwood depot who only get to see the vehicles from 24/7 that stay on longer than six months because they get a second test and they say no that the vehicles are all very well maintained including some of these vehicles that have been licensed through this for a couple of years. Thank you. They don't have a problem. Thank you. Thank you Councillor Boynton. Councillor Slack. Thank you. So again the other districts and borough council in Derbyshire, they licensed vehicles which the county use as well so they got the same restriction 10 years, Amber Valley and Northeast so on. Well the thing is through you Chair, the thing is Councillor Slack, is the other districts and borough councils in Derbyshire that license the vehicles as taxis or private hire vehicles they might be used for special educational transport at the county council but the county council don't dictate any limits on the age of the vehicles. The other district, I did have a look actually at the other district councils with regard to wheelchair accessible vehicles and most do have some kind of age limit on them but it is more I suppose liberal for one to have a better word so they might leave them on 12 years they might leave them on 15 years but they would increase the inspection frequency. I mean again with taxi licensing legally we're only allowed to ask for three inspections a year. I mean most councils like us do a 12 month inspection so when you put the vehicle on it gets inspected. Six months later it gets another inspection to make sure it's still being maintained and then obviously on the next time it would be renewable so it would get its next inspection so that's two a year. You can ask for up to three but you can't ask for more than three because I suppose there would be that temptation to make reasons to have more inspections and necessary. So I have had a quick look as I said I didn't manage to look at all the district councils in Derbyshire but I did look at four or five of them and most of them have got that. They might have an age limit of say eight years for an ordinary vehicle or ten years for an ordinary vehicle but they add on a couple of years in the case of wheelchair accessible vehicles and that's mainly down to the expense of those vehicles. To be fair we reviewed our policy I think it was 2018 when we changed various things within it and one of the things that we removed we did have in at that time from 2009 to 2018 an exemption or not an exemption but a consideration for an exemption from the maximum age limit by a year but we felt it was better to take that out and to allow people with wheelchair accessible vehicles to ask for an exemption on a case by case basis so if for example you felt that some of these vehicles should only be licensed for a couple of years more and some for longer then you've got that you know you've got that discretion. Yeah just one of a question is a mileage on the wheelchair the best way to do wheelchair actually. Well I have asked for the mileage of each of these six vehicles and that's the mileage from when we first licensed it so whatever it was when we first licensed it and then the mileage what it is now and then I asked somebody to calculate an average and you're talking a couple of the vehicles are on average for four four and a half thousand couple eight and a half thousand couple thirteen and a half thousand so it's very obviously it varies because the age of the vehicles there you can see varies but you're not looking at an extensive annual mileage in my own professional opinion. No thank you. Thank you. Councillor Milstrom. Thank you I think you've partially touched on this already but I just wanted to clarify are we proposing here to remove the age limit completely so that it then becomes open ended or are we talking about sort of moving it up a couple of years and I was wondering if we could also ask the applicant whether he has any sort of programmed replacement in future years for this fleet. Yeah I think I can probably answer that chair. So what we're asking for is or what the applicant's asking for is an exemption from the 10 year maximum age limits but not specifying a new age limit so when it's not it's not it's not thoroughly open ended I suspect in terms of the the business having a program of renewal I would expect that they would have they're a huge company they're not I mean they provide this service this kind of service in probably another thirty plus local authorities across the country so it's not it's not just something they're doing in Derbyshire Dales which is why they have huge fleets and so yeah I would imagine they have a fairly a fairly robust renewable program I don't know whether you're allowed to ask questions join the committee meeting with somebody who's only done public participation so if you are then you can. I think from my perspective if I'm allowed to have a perspective there are three recommendations and recommendations three to assist to be exempt from the maximum age requirement so I mean I think it's up to this for us to decide and when we move into debate what we feel might be a reasonable you know time period so that's what we can discuss and then there might be a slight amendment of one of the recommendations if that's what we wish to do. If I could just add to chair through you it's it's not to set a precedent or to it's not you're not going to be approving something in principle for 24/7 limited that they can always put on wheelchair accessible vehicles that are more than 10 years we are specifically at this committee dealing with these six vehicles. Any more questions? Oh sorry custom peacock sorry. Yeah my question so going back to the question about the environmental impact of having the order vehicles we don't know exactly what the impact is of these particular vehicles however we can make a good guess if we know what the fuel type and make a model of the vehicles is particularly fuel type. That's exactly right did we know that Eileen? Without looking it might take a while. If we just hang on one minute while Eileen... Are they, are they like such an all... Anything further you wish to ask? So any more questions that anybody wishes to ask? So we've got three recommendations on the table. Does anybody want to move the recommendations before we enter into debate? As read or... Yes I'll move them chair if I may. And you want to move them as they are there? I will move them as they are chair and I can I can speak slightly if that's necessary or I can just leave it as it is. Is that okay? It's fine. I mean the point is chair that this is a fabulous service that is provided. We've been here before talking about private high vehicles on the lack of wheel chair and disability accessible private hire. Clearly this isn't private hire it is purely for contract use which is a bonus. I mean I would say chair that also replacement of these vehicles in the next if all of them were replaced in the next 24 months it is highly likely that they would be replaced with the same type of vehicle and not some kind of green version because that would be the current standard and at some point I'm sure that the company will go to two more greener vehicles when the opportunity and also the technology allows and so therefore that's why I would move these or these recommendations. It's clear to me that not only are MOT's taking place but the council is also seeing these vehicles both at the 10 year mark but also seeing them on a regular basis and therefore has its own rigorous inspection process at the depot and therefore that is a system which is on top of the standard requirement of MOT and I'm thankful for the report really chair that it is for it and for the gentleman that has spoken about that thank you. Does that find a second please? Councillor Boynton you have a second do you wish to make a comment? No I'm happy to second for the reasons I've been mentioned just vehicles these days I think I've got quite a good lifetime there are low mileage as has been said they're fully inspected and I'm quite sure that the vehicles will be absolutely safe. Thank you right so it's been moved and it's been seconded so should we move now moving to debate does anybody wish to make any comment in debate? Councillor Peacock. So going back to the fuel type thing I wasn't particularly saying that all the vehicles should be electric I realized that that would be impractical but I do know that there's a big difference between some diesels and others that's why I would like to know the make and model particularly and there was a change wasn't there and I'm not sure when it is was it about 2016 the euro thing yeah that's the thing I'm thinking of yeah so is there a way that we can pass this with giving priority to the ones that have that standard if some of them do and some of them don't do you see what I mean is there something we can do along those lines to just sort of nudge things into that direction that's what I'm saying. I can understand that. I really like that's a question really well. Well it is and I may not know that answer but I can see what you're getting at and obviously I think we would all like to see more environmentally sound vehicles on the highway and I can't say whether any of these are I mean I think we're thinking about when they add blue you know and those sorts of things that they are euro six I think well I think it's six I through you Chair that is I mean that's a policy requirement that they've got to be euro six are vehicles approved not just these are any vehicles that we license. Anybody else, Councillor Maelstrom? Thank you yes I agree and I'd like to thank Mr Greenoff for speaking about what is obviously a very important service and I'm not seeking to force anybody to replace vehicles unnecessarily because that in itself has a carbon cost to it as well as the financial cost but I my preference would be for us not to grant an open-ended lifetime extension to these vehicles but perhaps to extend it for two to three years in the hope that when this then comes back to this committee for further review we could perhaps have more information on mileage and how the applicant is then placed in terms of a renewal program what the plans are for replacing them with more fuel efficient or carbon friendly carbon neutral vehicles and so on just to so can we please put some are you proposing an amendment are you proposing an amendment to Councillor BON'S initial proposal to to extend it to you enough to I'll be definitive whether you want two years or three years because I don't think we can leave it vague. Can I ask my colleagues for a view as to whether two or three might have been released? I noticed in the report there is the mention it would help the company in planning their future provision for the next three years moving forward so my recommendation would be if we were going to add a time limit it should be at least the three years to help them. I agree that you were the first one to mention this and we can either go through an amendment or we can you Councillor BON could agree to the change in that amendment you're additional. Yes thank you Chair this is 0.3 of the recommendation I think and I would be happy about a three-year extension. I'm just concerned though that all the vehicles haven't yet reached the 10-year stage so are we talking about the extension from now or are we talking about the extension from the 10-year stage is that right? That's my understanding. Yes so do they all roll at different times then yes so it will be more than three years when we come back to council if we just understand that but yes three years would be fine by me and we could make that recommendation rather than saying from the yeah from the max measuring how we could just put for a for a period of three years beyond the maximum age requirement. Yes so you're happy to absorb that within your initial motion Councillor BON. Yes and are you happy Councillor Boynton? Yes I think that's sensible. Do you want to come back? Thank you yes just in terms of the mechanics of it might it be better rather than to wave it for another three years would be to vary the age limit for these vehicles to 13 rather than 10. Would that be clearer? Would that be clearer if you're on to say three years, 13 years from? Yeah to extend the age limit instead of instead of the maximum age limit being 10 years in the case of these vehicles it would be 13 yes. I mean on either way Chair I think it's implicit in either one but if you want to be very specific. Definitive 13 years will be fine. Yeah just stand by for one minute. So you want to be better? That's good. Do you want me to mention the types of vehicles? Councillor SRI, did you want to say something in debate? Yeah we'll go say same as Laura. Uh actually end it to 13 and we're going to say the same. So yeah I think just one uh a question or in extending it for a year should there be more uh regular coming every three times a year for inspection or two do you think? I think through you Chair that what perhaps should happen is if if the vehicle has its two inspections if the depot decided that perhaps it needed a 30 inspection it would be down to the senior mechanic to make that recommendation. I mean I don't know whether or not you'd want to include something along the lines of when it's being tested that it should pass that inspection because at the moment what happens with vehicles that come in for testing is they obviously they have the test and they either pass or they don't if they don't then they're allowed to retest. You wouldn't want them to have five or six retests because that would kind of indicate that perhaps the vehicle wasn't what it seemed. So I don't know I think perhaps in terms of as I say I'm not a I'm not a professional in in terms of vehicles if the if it was left to the senior mechanic to make that decision and to recommend a third test if it was necessary if they had any concerns that perhaps might be might be acceptable because that's what they could do now. They are the professionals aren't they? Would it be reasonable to add on to the end of your slightly amended amended motion and just say up to a maximum at the discretion of the head lead mechanic a maximum of three inspections a year at the discretion of the lead mechanic. Would that be something that you would share? I think that would be recommendation four. We would just add that recommendation in as a separate recommendation and then it could stand alone as a sentence. Yeah okay. So anybody else want to say anything in debate? So what we've got is we've got three recommendations. I mean through you I mean you did ask what vehicles they were and as I say I'm not I'm not mechanically minded at all but apparently one of them is a voxel mavano whatever one of those is another one's a purjo boxer and another one's a citrine relay. I mean there are three more but unfortunately my technical schools are not that good so I don't know if that does help. I think it's safe to say that the motor vehicles. I think the point is I think I think if this happens again it would be useful to know that ahead of the meeting so that we could look it up. So what I'm going to do is I'm just going to say that we've debated the matter. We've got four recommendations now. We've got recommendation one as as printed. Recommendation two as printed. We've got recommendation three. Lucy do you want to just enlighten us to what that one is now please? Yeah so instead of to be exempt from the maximum age limit it is now to vary the age limit for these vehicles to 13 years as opposed to 10. And can you enlighten us to the new amendment the new recommendation for please thank you. Yep it was that the discretion of the lead mechanic to carry out up to three inspections each year. That's what I've got. So those are the four recommendations now. Is everybody happy in content with those? Yeah so can we now vote for all those in favour of accepting those four recommendations? That's unanimous and the motion is carried. Thank you very much. Thank you Mr Greenoff unless you want to stay for the rest of the evening you're free to leave. Thank you very much. I wish that that's funny. We now move on to agenda item number six which is the review of the house to house and street collections licensing policy. This is going to be presented by you Arlene all great. Yep yeah by Arlene thank you. Thank you so as the report outlines we do have a policy on how we do with house to house and street collections in the district. The policy was first introduced in 2021 and at the time we felt it was necessary just so that applicants and members of the public were aware of either need for a licensed carry out house to house collection or a permit to carry out street collection a charity street collection and also that the applicants knew what the timescales were for putting their applications in to get those and what they'd need to know or what they'd need to do once they've been granted either a permit or a license in terms of submitting their returns to tell us how much money they'd raise what they'd done with it etc. Free COVID we were dealing with something like 60/70 street collections per year. The last couple of years we've probably had 20 between 20 and 25 applications for each year. They are mainly the street collections are mainly carried out in our main towns Bakewell Ashbourne Matlock. There are there are more local collections that are carried out every year in places such as Ashford in the water do a old EME. What do you call them? Well dressings well dressings collections and then we have organizations like the mountain e-mountain rescue team who will do one specifically in EME. Some of our smaller villages do have street collections but it's generally our major towns. The Royal Poppy or Royal British Legion Poppy appeal which happens every year as you all know. They do have a sort of blanket fortnight so our policy might suggest that we wouldn't give a permit for any longer than a few days but because of that one it's a national exemption. We do allow that to take place over a period of about 10 days I think it is end of October beginning of November. The council's policy sets out that we only allow one collection per charity or one charity to collect on the same day so in other words if you're in Matlock you wouldn't be going around every street corner and running into a different street collector. It would only be for example Royal Air Ambulance something like that. It hasn't caused any, the policy hasn't caused any problems that we're aware of and we get very or we don't get complaints about street collectors either too many or their behaviour or anything like that and I understand that all those trading standards are more likely to receive any complaints about house-to-house collectors because of cold calling and things like that. I've not had any passed on to me so I'm assuming that during the last few years we've not had many of those either and we do tell the house-to-house collectors so they're the ones where you put your bags out with clothes and brick or brick etcetera and we do tell those when they apply if they have to apply some do have national exemption orders the bigger charities so they've already been vetted so we don't we don't license those but the ones that we do license and we do tell them that trading standards have advised that we don't have any cold calling zones in Derbyshire Dales but if people individuals have got little signs in their windows saying you know no cold calling no or whatever could they respect that and generally speaking I say we don't get any complaints so I believe that happens so when the policy was first introduced back in 2021 we suggested that it should it should last three years the policy and we should review it see if there's any changes needed go out to consultation with the permit holders and the and the larger charities that run the house-to-houses perhaps consult with trading standards and the local police because if the were going to be complaints of any kind of crime you know bags being stolen that sort of thing then they would have that they would have that information and might want to comment and we could perhaps look to this time consult maybe with with parish and town councils to see if they've got any views on on the number of collections in their areas or whether or not there were other organizations in their areas that don't currently put in for permits but perhaps don't know that we have a policy or a procedure for doing it and they perhaps don't know it's a regulated activity. So we're suggesting we're recommending that in order to renew the policy by August if possible I mean it's not crucial there's no statutory obligation to have this policy it's just that as the years have gone by a new new laws have come in like alcohol and gambling and and it has been statutory to have a policy it's it seemed it seemed um what's the word it seemed appropriate to go back and look at some of the other services that we regulate and perhaps introduce policies even though we didn't need them because it's it's it's a good idea it's best practice and it tells everybody what what what we're going to do and how we're going to do it and it also helps if for any reason we have to refuse an application because people are very clear then on on what grounds we're refusing it. So we're suggesting a six-week consultation exercise on the policy that I've appended to this report in appendix one and the minor highlighting well they're not highlighted but they're supposed to be highlighted their their administrative changes I mean particularly in terms of the head of regulatory services no longer is no longer a post with the council and the responsibility for licensing is being transferred to the director of place and economy so it's just administrative things like that that I've made changes to the actual context or meat of the policy is something that I think perhaps ought to go you know go out to yourselves to all councillors all councillors of the council not just this committee and to the people I alluded to earlier that that our stakeholders in the service and might have might have some comments to make the idea then would be and I think I think I'm right and Jason would have to correct me if I'm not but I think we'd have to we have to avoid consultation of any description through during an election per the period do we so we would be looking to perhaps go out grace would be looking perhaps to go out to consultation with this policy towards towards the middle end of May for maybe six weeks and then it would then give her time to report back to a future meeting of this committee I'm not quite sure what it's a draft program stage at the moment so I think there might be one in July and if not then the next one might not be until September but that could that all any comments could come back then for you to approve a draft and I believe I hope I'm correct I believe that this this policy document wouldn't have to go to council for full approval and it could be approved by yourselves as the licensing and appeals committee at a future meeting any questions I'm happy okay can I just before we do can I just say that the Royal British Legion I have a non-accuring interest because I'm a member of the Royal British Legion and I do occasionally go out rattling a bucket so I just wish people to know that sorry sorry to interrupt I might I might just add not that this will make any difference whatsoever to why we're here because we're here to look at the policy but it is worth noting that we don't we're not allowed to charge fees for either of these two collections it's I mean the legislations 1947 and some of the you know ancient period of time so we don't we you know there were no provisions for charging it was just something that they're notifying as they're going to do a collection and we just prepare a small amount of paperwork acknowledging that notification. Thank you. Councillor Pico you want to ask a question? So just just so I'm clear here so the changes that are highlighted are those the only changes? Well they're the only changes I've made administratively because this is the draft document that we need approval to go out to consult on and any changes that any of the stakeholders would propose would come back before you in a separate schedule with with with an officer recommendation whether or not those changes are acceptable because it's not you know you could have a wish list of things that legally we couldn't introduce and obviously we'd see legals opinion on on the final on a final draft. But otherwise this is the existing policy. It is the existing policy. I see. I see. I see. I see. So the consultation is about is the review effectively is I was just wondering why we need to consult given that it hasn't changed. But well basically it hasn't changed because because we've had no need to change it but that doesn't mean that people out there wouldn't see any change it. Is that okay? Yes. Thank you. Okay with that. Councillor Dobs. Thank you, Chair. Clearly the legislation is very much geared towards cash and in fact Queenage. Is there been any move to or any pressure that's come to you for people collecting with contactless devices? I haven't heard of any because I mean the the legislation I understand and probably because of its age just cover street collections in street collections of money. So I mean we are supposed we have to assume that's cash. We do have people applying in inverted commas to collect direct debits so they can ask you to sign up to a direct debit. I mean basically again like most licensing legislation there's it's not definitive across the country what everyone should do. So some councils still insist that if even if they're collecting direct debits even though those people can go back home change their mind and cancel anything. So you know they're not pressured. Some councils do insist on on street collection permits being granted. I mean we we don't because it isn't collecting cash in the street so so we don't at the moment. That might be something that as part of the consultation over this document Grace could take up with legal and they could look into whether or not that needs to be regulated as well. So I think there's I think because the legislation is quite old with this this type of licensing and it's important that we do look at things have moved on. The contactless is a kind of good idea but then that you know they wouldn't have a tinder shake. Actually they're not allowed to shake. That is in the room. That's the bond. Thank you Chair. I am aware that there are contactless collections and they certainly do take place around Ashbourne and I've heard of that several times. But I've got a few questions really Chair if that's okay because we're at the question stage aren't we. And I was going to say do we do we have this this does seem like an old policy in some ways and I'm not sure so for instance you know I was going to ask is there a method it does say about boxes it does say about envelopes kind of about collecting it doesn't mention contactless or those sort of other methods. So do we ask regarding a method when we get an application? That's the first question. Do we have a strict protocol for care and civility for collectors for instance? Is there a guide? Do we actually have a complaints procedure on behalf of Derbyshire Dales and that would be a concern and a way to follow up. Do we advertise a complaints procedure? Do we have initiatives around the area which are for instance where there are other in other places where there are signs up where there is an operation of a house collection free zone. I don't know if that's a thing within this authority or that happens but you know I've not seen one but I know in my previous authority there were some collection free zones that were operated in certain areas because people felt there was vulnerability. So is that a thing? And I was just looking at section the appendix 14 one and two and I wonder if there could be some further clarity around that. Do collectors actually publish their figures both either to the authority or in the newspapers as suggested there or is that an option? An optional thing. Should we give early in the hostage initiative? I'm sorry I can come back again. I know it's a lot. Yes please do. Please do. So the last one about regulations. These are regulations so in appendix one to that report street collections regulations are something that this council even before me must have established. So they've drawn them more obviously with leading assistance I would imagine and yes within a month of the collection those people who are collecting or those organisations do have to submit an income and expenditure return. And we do chase those up. Sometimes it'll be that the street collection hasn't gone ahead because of the weather or whatever or because they couldn't get collectors. We do try and remind them well even if you don't do it please could you let us have a nil written so that we know you haven't you know run off to the barn as with the proceeds. Does that answer the question 14? About publishing in a newspaper again I we don't make them do that. I mean you know I've just published something in a paper today a public notice and it's cost £1,200 but I it's not something that we that we would enforce or have in force. It's certainly part one we do. Oh it's definitely yes with both house-to-house collections and street collections. So the street collections is within one month. The house-to-house collections is I think three months because basically they could do a whole a whole town you know a couple of times so they it's not as tight with them and it is tight when it comes in and it's monitored and with a house-to-house collection I also forgot to mention that those house-to-house collectors in this district and it's not the same across the country have to agree to 80% of their profit for want of a better word after they've paid their collectors or whoever they pay. They have to give 80% of its charity and if an application comes in where it's 70% or 75% then I just write to them and say we want 80% going or nothing. You know you don't get a permit and that's kind of how it works. Sorry can we go back to the questions? Collection free zones. Collection yeah well the collection free zones I imagine will fall under the trading standards cold calling zones that's kind of what they're trying to prevent is vulnerable people being affected and asking for if there is a sign in somebody's window where they don't want cold calling particularly the direct debit collectors want to be better word because that's what they tend to do they don't tend to stand so much in the street they tend to target housing and go and see people during the day and get them to sign up that way so so that one is covered. Complaints procedure complaints procedure so we I mean we don't have in the in the instance in this instance in house to house and street collections we haven't got a formal complaints procedure but it would follow the same procedure as any as any of our other service licensing services we provide but grace could consider that as part of the consultation period that we we ought to include it and if you want we could include a complaints procedure mechanism in this draft document before it goes out seeing as it will be going out probably until the end of May that could be an inclusion from this meeting that we that we do put in details of how to make a complaint but probably through the website you know form on the website something like that and the next one which might link into what you just said the care and civility I think you said so we so in the street collection regulations I think it does talk about I think as I say I know I know that people aren't allowed to shake the tin and dune nose and it probably just says somewhere in there that you've got to be polite and nice and certainly in our in the policy it definitely says that people are supposed to be respectful of and not not body people into donating and then we're back to the contactless method yeah I wasn't aware actually that we have but that's because we don't ask and that might be something we could change on our application form because it is interesting to know that contactless collecting is happening and I guess that's the way to go isn't it you know that is cash to a lot of young people and a lot of older people as well but to a lot of young people that is cash so if if the charity is benefiting then then why not again we might need to include that in in any new policy I can confirm that even the rural British Legion are using contactless yeah so do you want to come back on any of those council bond I don't think so I'll give an opportunity for other people to come and thank you very much next is Councillor Frank's please yeah so I was some of the points you've covered that I was going to go I suppose I should declare a big non-pecuniary interest as I am involved with collecting for the lifeboats and the lifeboat organisation but in terms of the machines that they use for collecting which they are now beginning to do in quite a big way I think that careful consideration doesn't need to be given to that because obviously if you have an open machine which you can put in any amount the lifeboats have machines which start off when they open up if somebody's wanting to pay contactless there's a fee of three pounds and then they need to press a button if they want to increase it to five and then press again for ten so I think there would be a danger if if there weren't a sort of machine that is sort of designed so that this suddenly don't find themselves giving away a hundred pounds you know without realising it the very controlled machines if you like favouring the member of the public using I don't know what you use if you send it to me so your question could be ask if it would be possible to research the differing methods because there's QR codes as well aren't there yeah and all sorts of different sorts of different machines out there and I think this needs to be some care taken I'm sure Grace could I'm sure Grace could include that in in her Councillor Slack yeah thank you Councillor Frank's answer one that's one of my questions the other question is leading on from that you get now get people coming around quite a very very professional really and trying to sign people up for based on much a month to mainly on the bigger charities they're very very good at it and they're very professional and I was talking to one and they get so much more people decide not more money to get they paid on the basis of that it's not like street collectors where it's more more volunteers doing it free this is a big business really in some respects and we've got to be careful and watch them what's going on same as Councillor Frank's you know old and vulnerable people could easily be trapped here it is a dangerous area where we've got to keep an eye on this you know so it's a blessing for more money and more money thank you so that's just one of my questions that's good right any more questions please so we've had questions we've got one recommendation and the recommendation states that the committee considers and approves for consultation the draft house to house and street collections policy detail the appendix one now does anybody want to move that recommendation with maybe slight amount of Councillor Peacock could I move it with the amendment that we also instigate some sort of complaints per city because of all the questions that have come up I think that's the most important one yeah and Chair I wonder whether there's a the contactless thing is an interesting one because if you are vulnerable and we do have a population which is getting older and one of the things that happens with contactless is if you give £5 sometimes you consequently then agree to being contacted by the organisation who will then ask you if you want to give regularly so you'll get a phone call and that phone call coming through to an elderly vulnerable person there's nothing wrong with an organisation for instance let's talk about Benardo's for instance or somebody else similar large organisation that may be well known but actually receiving giving £5 and then receiving a consequent phone call asking you to give on a regular base a monthly basis can be something that you may have forgotten about or didn't intend to do and again it whilst it's not code calling because you might have ticked a box or the box might have been ticked on your behalf it's still something that then continues the process and I just think you know is this policy just refers to you know collecting with envelopes and tins and cash and so on and I just wonder whether there's further exploration to be done really around the idea of contactless and even the consequences and possibilities of that I don't know I don't know how I'd include that in a recommendation but it certainly does concern me Right if we just before you come back Castle Pico do you want to come in Arlene? I was just I was just going to suggest you know obviously the legislation is so old the policy is so old and it is a it's a good opportunity to do quite a bit of research and I mean you know we we can tap into advice from the Institute of Licensing because you know they'll they'll be aware of licensing across the country so there may well be some other councils who've got a more up-to-date policy and procedures because they probably they're probably dealing with much larger numbers of collections both house to house and street collections and as you say contact contactless payments probably in their droves so they may well have experienced complaints and issues that have led them to have to introduce better regulation or more robust regulation so that is something that I'm sure Grace will look forward to researching and perhaps you know seeking Institute of Licensing advice and and advice from our own legal team as to how as to how that can be made more robust. Castle Pico you you did want to move a recommendation as was but with the you mentioned about the read more research into the complaints procedures is that do you wish to add anything to that before we find a second? I would like I would like to say though the issue that you've and you're you're on your right to come up with that issue but it's not contactless that's the issue there it's collecting of data because when you when you do the card thing that's not taken any data it's just it's just making a payment and it is covered by GDPR but that kind of issue because it's because it's just it's also an issue when you give money in an envelope and complete your details on it so it's it's the taking of customer data that is the issue that should be looked into I think combined with a complaints procedure. Is that what you'd like to some hopeful that Lucy behind me is going to write that down so I mean as I see it it's it's an updating and it's in a refreshing of the the current policy that we're wanting to do isn't it to make it more into the 21st century so that's what we're looking for so that that's been moved sorry just an addition to that really I mean it is common for people to ask whether they want this to be gift-aided and and they will ask they will tell the the the person that gift-aiding will increase by what is it 20% and therefore that can be you know your five pounds can net us you know virtually seven pounds or your ten pounds can net us 12 pounds or whatever it is and actually that's a very good opportunity and it's hard to turn gift-aiding down and again the the issue around gifting is you then give your details and and people just need to be clear about and maybe the policy ought to be saying something like you know what is your method of collection to those that make an application and do you intend that you will be collecting information for gift aid purposes or for future contact of the client you know what so that we're clear about and and maybe that would be part of the updating of the policy maybe we just call it updating of the policy given our discussion here today right so sorry to interrupt would it be a good idea to update the policy with some of these issues before we go out to consultation so that it's it it's more informed definitely okay would you be content with that to you know just saying a general updating of the policy yeah i think we should specifically mention complaints procedure modern payment methods and i think the GDPR is the thing that we need to have that so so that's been moved and i'm sure Lucy's written that down does that find a seconder please council bond you second that right we will now enter into some debate if we want to i know we've had a bit of debate but it's better to get the air cleared um i think and and get something that we try and understand anybody wish to enter into a bait council peacock sorry not really debate thing it's just it's just an observation really um i would like to say i think i i didn't fully appreciate some of the policies but i 2021 is around the time when the you know those bag collections where they give like 20 percent of its charity they stopped in 20 and it's kind of it's possibly partly a coincidence because of covid but i think also that i really like having that 80 percent rule and i think i i and i hope that when it when the policy is renewed that we will um shout about that we'll put some social media festivalies stuff out about it because i think that's really good that it all the council adopts thank you chair this is really a question but i'll phrase it just as a comment um i i hope that the consultation will pull in all of the charities as well as the public is yes so they'll have a chance to make their comment they in your stakeholders they're sort of people we're talking about yeah the intention will be anybody who's had a permit or a license over the last probably five years to allow for covid because obviously they they did have a national policy where they stopped collecting for obvious reasons um so so we've had some light years but we could go back for five years and and every charity that we've um that we've had a license application from or a street collection we they would be included it just cover most of the big ones as well the ones with the national exemption orders because it's worth having their views indeed i think that would shape things quite nicely thank you thank you um before we move to the vote we'll clarify what Lucy's got written down so we're all aware where we're at thank you yep so you will be approving that the policy does go to consultation but first it will be updated with the points mentioned this evening specifically regarding the completes procedure GDPR and the modern payment methods you content with that and the second the content with that and you've got all those in your mind so we'll now move to the boat all those in favor of that motion thank you i can say that's unanimous and it is carried and as we know no more business that is the end of the meeting and thank you very much for turning up take care of a safety journey home bye bye
Summary
The Licensing and Appeals Committee discussed and made decisions on several key issues, including exemptions for taxi license age requirements and the review of the house-to-house and street collections licensing policy. The meeting also acknowledged the retirement of a long-serving committee member.
Exemption from Taxi License Age Requirements: The committee approved a three-year extension beyond the 10-year age limit for six specific wheelchair-accessible vehicles used by 24/7 Ltd for special educational needs transport. Arguments for the exemption included the vehicles' low mileage and rigorous maintenance, ensuring safety and reliability. The decision allows the company to plan ahead and ensures continued service provision. The implications include potential environmental concerns due to older vehicle technologies.
Review of House-to-House and Street Collections Licensing Policy: The committee agreed to update and consult on the existing policy, focusing on modernizing payment methods, including contactless transactions, and enhancing data protection and complaint procedures. The discussion highlighted the need for clarity on how charities handle personal data and the importance of maintaining high donation percentages to charities. The updated policy will potentially increase transparency and trust in public charitable collections.
Interesting Occurrence: The meeting acknowledged Eileen Tierney's retirement after 36 years of service, highlighting her significant contributions to the committee and community. This personal touch added a human element to the proceedings.
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