Transcript

Okay, followed our members, and thank you for attending the Planning Committee meeting on the 21st of February 2024. This meeting has been held as a webcast with the exception of any business that the committee results exclude the press and public because of the lightly disclosure of exempt information as defined by the Local Government Act 1972. This meeting has been held in a hybrid meeting with Planning Committee members attending in person, in County Hall Chamber in Riffon, or remotely via video conference. Those attending remotely are kindly asked to mute their microphones unless they are called upon to speak. Planning Committee members are also asked to have their video switched on throughout the meeting unless I request that. They turn off the video to improve the quality of the audio link. You will be expected to restart your video once you have finished speaking. Can you please refrain from using the chat facility as message sent are also visible on the webcast? And to aid today's meeting, can all business be conducted through myself at this chair? Let's talk about, and I will now bring in the legal officer just to confirm who's in the Chamber and who's on Zoom. Thank you. Good morning. In the Chamber today we have Councillor Edwards, Councillor Ellis, Councillor Elson, Councillor Hugh Hilditch Roberts, Councillor James, Councillor Mendes, Councillor Mullen-James, Councillor Parry, Councillor Tomlin, Councillor Elvet Williams and Councillor Young. On Zoom we have Councillor Chard, Councillor Justine Evans, Councillor Harland, Councillor Dellef Jones, Councillor Julie Matthews, Councillor Metri, Councillor Sandaland, Councillor Cheryl Williams, and also not on committee, but with us is Councillor Diane King. Thank you, I go to item one, which is apologies please. Apologies today we have from Councillor Chris Evans and Councillor Roberts. Okay, I don't think there's any other apologies, okay, I'll move on to number two, which is to declare any interest of today's meeting and again I'll hand over to the legal officer, Joachim Bauw. Yeah, members will be aware of the requirement under the Council's Code of Conduct to declare any personal or prejudicial interests in respect of any business to be considered at today's meeting. Such interest should be declared now, or as soon as the Council are affected, becomes aware that they have a personal or prejudicial interest in today's business. All members declaring an interest are required to state clearly what the interest is and to advise whether it is a personal interest or a personal prejudicial interest as defined in the Code of Conduct. Any member declaring a prejudicial interest is required to leave the meeting for the duration of the business and can take no part in the proceedings. Members with a personal interest only may take part in the debate than any vote. If a personal or personal or prejudicial interest is declared today that has not previously been disclosed and recorded, the Councillor concerned will be required to complete and sign a declaration of interest form, which is either available from the committee support staff in attendance here today or online. Don't be nuts to me. That's okay. Joachim Bauw. Anyone like to declare an interest for today and Councillor Cheryl Williams, please be talking about? Yeah, and item number six, my brother backs on to the property in question. I just wanted to say that, I'm not sure it's a personal one only, but it's my brother about it still. That's just a personal one, you're saying, yeah, so you're happy to stay in for that item? Joachim Bauw. Any others please? Anyone else like to do any interest for today? Okay. I want to see him happy with that. Okay. Joachim Bauw. Thanks for that. I'll move over now to item three, which is urgent matters agreed by myself as chair, and I have none. And then minutes, which I'll go through page by page for accuracy first, and then matters arising, so for the minutes, page 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12. Okay. Anyone happy with the accuracy of those minutes, please? Yeah. Okay. I've got a proposal, Councillor James, and on Zoom, Councillor John Harland, please. Okay. Did you want to come in, John? Yeah. Sorry, Joachim Bauw. Yeah. The Ochmarker, I just noticed in the minute the minor error referring to time travel on page 11, it says operational hours would change from 1900 hours to 1700 hours during the week. I hope we can correct that. Just checking with pen attention. Thanks a lot. We'll pick that up. Joachim Bauw. Thank you. Okay. Are we happy now, Councillor proposed, Councillor James, going to propose? Okay. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Any matters arising from those minutes, please? Okay. Okay. Okay. I'll move on now to the applications. Okay. I will start with item 5, page 13, code 23, 2023, 04, 6, 8, P.F., and the location is Brin Goley and it's sat on in DIMBIC and the approval of demolition of existing poultry farm erection of poultry units at the Turkey breed in comprised of two linked poultry units with associated feed bins, trucks, shed, hardstandings, access row, new access for vehicles and associated works. The local member is Councillor Elvig-Williams, officer, recommendation is to grant. We have one public speaker who I'll call up now, please, in the agent, please. Joachim Bauw, thank you. Okay. Thanks for attending. You get three minutes and we start when you start speaking, Joachim Bauw, thank you. All members, I just wanted to offer some context to this planning application. My client, Avia Jen Turkey's limited, have secured a subject to planning option on this site and the other site in Saran, there's two poultry units in Saran that both exist in Broly units and my client has bought them subject to planning. The planning permissions have been granted on the other site, which is Penny Thrith. What we're proposing is that the laying turkeys are going to be reared at Penny Thrith and then moved to Bringoly where they will operate as a laying unit. So the Penny Thrith ones was approved under delegated powers in December with exactly the same conditions in terms of the hours of operation that are proposed within the officer's report on this application. So, in terms of the Bringoly site, it's an existing broiler rearing unit, it's been there a long time. It holds a permit from Natural Resources Wales to accommodate up to 87,000 broiler chickens. So the existing use of that site is currently not being used pending the outcome of this planning application, but it's perfectly functional now. It's just currently mothballed until we have a resolution on this application, but in terms of the existing use, that generates 83 lorries during the night. So on all poultry units across the country, poultry is caught in the night for welfare reasons. It's quiet, so there's less stress on the bird for catching in the night. So the existing lawful use of the site requires 83 lorries during the night. What we're proposing at Bringoly is a massive reduction in the intensity of the operation. So it's moving from a rearing site to a laying site. So our flock cycle is 36 weeks, whereas the existing flock cycle is seven weeks. So our proposed development requires nine lorries in the night. The lawful use of the site is currently about 83. So we've got a substantial reduction. The other issue mentioned at the previous committee was the location of the access. Now our highways consultants designed the access to meet the needs of the site. We agreed that the pre-application stage with the Denvershire Highways Engineers, and they've offered no objection to that access location and the design of the access within this planning application. So in terms of the issues, why this application was deferred, we can't agree to have no lorries in the night. But at the moment, the site's completely unrestricted. But don't take a seat, and then I'll bring in the local member first, and then bring in the committee members. Okay, Councillor Williams, please, talk about— Councillor interjecting. Councillor interjecting. Councillor interjecting. Thank you very much. This application came in at the last meeting. I just wanted that it's going back so soon to us, and that this business hasn't been taken into consideration, the feelings of this Council. But having said that about the access to the site, I have some concerns about the access in terms of the details of closing the access that's there currently, and opening up any one. I'd like to ask officers perhaps to expand a bit more on that. About the conditions, about the hours, I still have concerns about that. I accept what the agency has just said today, and I'm not proposing that worries aren't able to use the site during the night, but what I am going to ask is that that's restricted to midnight. I don't think that it's right for the people who live locally, that that lorries are passing boards, but past that time, and I am going to also propose that during June, July, August, as it's later, the night falls later during that time, that that's move, possibly one o'clock in the morning during those three months, but midnight, otherwise for the remaining nine months, that still allows enough time of an evening for lorries to be able to arrive there, and to offload the turkeys. About the regular hours, they have offered and they accept themselves that they need some conditions on the number of lorries that are able to move in and out during normal hours, days from Monday to Friday, and what I'm going to propose is that that's restricted from seven in the morning until five in the afternoon, that still allows ten hours, all backs, there's four lorries, especially occurring feeds in and out, and on a Saturday, seven until one, and Sunday and bank holidays to keep to ten to four as has been proposed. That still allows, you know, those times, and the ten hours during the week six of a Saturday and five of a Sunday or bank holidays, and I think that's reasonable, and they accept themselves about those conditions that need to be in place. I accept that the current business, that there aren't any conditions in place there, but they are putting in the new application now, and with a new application, they have to accept that there is a possibility of conditions going to be placed, and that's what I'm going to propose today. Thank you. Okay, thanks for that. So we touched on the access, the old men's, so highways are also controlled for the hours exception, so I'll go over to officers now, thank you. Thank you, Chair. Borrowed our pal. Yep. Thank you, Councillor Williams, for your comments there. We've discussed this before, I think it's important to point out that if, you know, I think you're proposing the application to be granted subject to conditions nine and ten. The key one there, I think, from the officer's point of view, is the nighttime deliveries. Now, you're trying to limit them to midnight. What officers would point out is that the existing use is not controlled. They can deliver at any time during the night of day, and as the public speaker pointed out, the current operation, as a broiler unit, has up to 83 night deliveries per year. What they're proposing now is nine nighttime deliveries per year, so that's a significant reduction. The existing situation is uncontrolled, so 83 is just how they function, but it could be more than that if they were on particular busy time. I would direct members to condition number nine, which actually puts in a control, said, Okay, we're not limiting the hours on for the live deliveries, but we are saying it's only six live deliveries per year, so that would be six nighttime deliveries per year. Sorry, per production, which is a total of nine nighttime vehicles per year. I think members would have to look at the level of reasonableness there, that that's a significant improvement on the existing situation. What we also would say is that the existing situation, which is far more intense, to our time knowledge, hasn't been causing a problem. Members need to decide whether they think it's necessary to amend the condition to reading the nighttime deliveries to be restricted to midnight, and then in the summer months to 1 a.m., or whether or not the conditioner's suggested by officers is acceptable. Thank you. Then the highways, can we just touch on the questions over access and the openings, please, and then request them all details. Any thoughts on that, please, do you have a vote? I can understand the local concerns. The proposal involves a demolition of seven existing poultry shares, followed by the erection of two number new poultry houses and associated infrastructure. The site is currently an existing poultry farm for the rear embroidered of broiler chickens with a capacity of 87,200 birds. The proposal will operate as a turkey laying unit producing fertile eggs for hatching. The capacity new farm will be 6,000 birds. It's been raised over the number of HGV movements. The HGV movements associated with the proposed site will be 828 vehicle movements per week for the flock cycle, including feeds and collecting eggs and things. This is below the number of HGV movements associated with the existing use. The proposal also involves the creation of a new access to the north of the site, the existing access to be closed up. The center line of the new access is 30 metres from the salon junction. With the length of an articulated vehicle being 16.5 metres is considered the distance of the access to the junction is safe and will not cause any issues. Parking and turn is also provided on the site, taking into consideration the use of the existing site and vehicle movements. I do not consider there would be any reason to refuse this application on highway grounds. And any further information, it may be helpful to strengthen a condition regarding the details of the access and the road widening, something that we could agree with a local member after the committee. That may be helpful. We are going to go to bait and then come back for any proposal of the local member. Councillor Paddy, do you want to come in, please? Knock them out. Yes, thank you, Chair. Just a quick and on the movement of the live birds. It is difficult sometimes to restrict that timing because logistics depends where they are coming from. It is like moving sheep or cattle or poultry or whatever. What you would not want to do is restrict them so that lorry is packed up in a lay by saying I have a when for two or three hours to wait to access it in there. Those birds want to be on that lorry and off that lorry as soon as they can. So for welfare benefit, sometimes it is difficult to control hours on movement of livestock. So into farm yards, for poultry, whatever like that. So I would be a little bit wary of controlling the live birds on the things because you have got a welfare issue. You would not want them packed up on the side in the M56 services for four hours waiting for a time scale to a load on the other end. Just bear that one in mind. Councillor interjecting. Councillor interjecting. Councillor interjecting. Councillor interjecting. Sorry. Thank you, Chair. I have got quite a bit of difficulty with this actually because we are having 83 deliveries at the moment. It is being reduced to 9 and I am struggling with why we have any objection to this at all when it is going to be a vast improvement to what is already happening. Thank you, Chair. Okay. Thank you. Anyone else? Councillor James, please. Chair, just a quick clarification. This is a 36 week cycle. So obviously being 52 weeks in a year would be change over role on different times of the year and therefore the June, July, August thing would be relevant. It would have been three or four years. Thank you. Councillor interjecting. Yes, that would be a role in cycle so I will see the key weeks of nighttime delivery would move on through the year so it would not be set here in every time. Councillor Hildes-Roberts, please. Sorry. I confess I am not a Turkey specialist. Is it me or am I being a bit of an apology if I am? If there was no planning application, things would carry on as they were. Yes. Nothing would change with it. You still have more journeys than is proposed in front of us. Is that right? Sorry, I might have missed something. Okay. Okay. I will just go back to the local member with any proposals. Yes, just to answer the Councillor, Madam Empari, my understanding is that they don't bring the turkeys in from outside. They move them from one side to the other so they won't be parked up on the side of a road. Sorry. They wouldn't be parked up on the roadside. They come from one side to the other so they can manage those times that they are able to bring them in from that side to this one so they can manage those times of an evening when they would bring them and then within those hours that I have offered. And to answer what you raised here, what this is, is a new proposal. They are going to demolish what is currently there and build new brand new units and in a way, business is completely different. Yes, it's like Turkish heads as they have been out, but it's a new business plan and it's a different method of operation. So what I'm asking is that they put conditions in as they've offered themselves almost. All I'm asking is that the transport of the lorries of an evening, but that doesn't happen past midnight for the benefit of those local residents. What I'm going to offer is the conditions about the access to the site that more details before coming in terms of how you close the current access and open up the new one and I believe that widening the road is somewhat outside for the new access so we need more details before the work starts. And then what I'm going to propose is the second proposal in a way is the hours. So the hours then start from seven in the morning until five of evening, on Monday to Friday. I sat today from seven till one and then Sunday and bank holidays that remains the same as what they have set themselves in until four. So I'm only going to ask that those to come down from two hours from what they've proposed during the week and that it comes down somewhat of a Saturday from four hours. So it's not a huge difference from what they've offered themselves, but I think it's a bit more appropriate for local people and for their own health and well-being that they don't get the noise of transport, disturbing them of an evening. And then with deliveries, the circuit deliveries that happens only during the hours of seven until midnight, seven morning until midnight during September until May and then from seven until one in the morning, following morning on the basis of June, July and August. Just to reiterate that an officer's view, our view is represented in the committee report there. We think that the conditions we put forward reflect the needs of the applicants, but they also offer extra controls over what is already on the site. So there's a betterment here what we're proposing. Understand where Council Williams is coming from, especially regarding the delivery of live birds and the hours, but I think when you look at the fallback position, the great number of units, we don't think it's reasonably necessary to control those hours any further than what we've recommended in the report. But it is within the gift of planning committee and for members to offer amended conditions. And the access question, yes, it's within the gift of members to suggest amended conditions that's fine. Great. So we've got a proposal, we have a seconder for that proposal, please. So what I'm going to do is bring in the legal officer just to confirm what we're voting on. If you want to come in before that, Councilor Mullen James can please. Yes, I'd like to propose that the grants application, given the condition that the officers have already granted, and that there is consultant consultation for the highways. That's two proposals and that one acknowledges the request on the access confirmation details. You're happy with that. Okay. And the legal officer just to confirm what we're voting on. Seconder, please. Yes, committee, the first proposal that we have on the table is a proposal by Council Rev. Williams to grant planning permission subject to conditions being amended. The condition around the hours of operation would be 7 a.m. till 5 p.m. Monday to Friday, 7 a.m. till 1 p.m. on a Saturday and 10 a.m. till 4 p.m. on a Sunday. That deliveries would have to be made before midnight from September till May and till 1 a.m. June, July and August, and that there would be an additional condition around the details of the access and how the existing access would be closed and the new access opened. So that is one proposal. If you would like to grant permission on that basis with those additional conditions and amendments to the conditions, then you will need to say for. If you don't agree with that proposal with those conditions, then you would say against. If Councillor Williams proposal is lost, then the committee will then vote on Councillor Mullen James's proposal, which is to grant planning permission in accordance with the Office of Recommendation with the an additional condition around the access details. So we need to take the vote in the order that the proposals were made. I understand it might mine was a counter productive amendment, so therefore that comes first. With Planning Committee proposal, the votes are taken on proposals that have been forwarded, sorry, moved and seconded in the order that they're made. We don't deal with amendments, it's different to motions at council. So as long as everybody's clear that what they're voting on now. Okay, I'm going to do a roll call, please. If you can speak into your mics and I will start with Councillor CHARD, please. Councillor GRANDS. Councillor Edwards, please. Councillor ALLIS, please. 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Councillor JOHNSTON, please. Councillor JOHNSTON, please. Councillor JOHNSTON, please. Councillor JOHNSTON, please. Councillor JOHNSTON, please. Councillor JOHNSTON, please. Councillor JOHNSTON, please. Councillor JOHNSTON, please. Councillor JOHNSTON, please. Councillor JOHNSTON, please. Councillor JOHNSTON, please. Councillor JOHNSTON, please. Councillor JOHNSTON, please. Councillor JOHNSTON, please. Councillor JOHNSTON, please. Councillor JOHNSTON, please. Councillor JOHNSTON, please. Councillor JOHNSTON, please. Councillor JOHNSTON, please. Councillor JOHNSTON, please. Councillor JOHNSTON, please. Councillor JOHNSTON, please. Councillor JOHNSTON. Okay, so this is item number 6, page 45, Code 452021-0516-PF. The location is Council Bell Road in will. Local members are Councillor King and Councillor Maye. All we have today is members to be nominated to work with the authority on the plan application and public hearing. I'll just bring the officers just to confirm what that entails. And I think we'll just have to two members for today. Local members can obviously also take part themselves. But this is from the committee, so I'm just confirming the details. And I'll bring in the local member as well if you would like to say a few words. Thank you, Chair. Yeah, just to confirm pretty much as the Chair said, obviously following the sad passing of Councillor Pendergast who was going to be leading on this appeal without planning consultant, we need somebody else to step into the breach. So we're requesting at least one member of committee puts the hand up and said they'll attend the appeal in conjunction with our planning consultant who we've already appointed. There'll also be other officers assisting behind the scenes on that. The statements already been agreed with the Councillor Pendergast, and that's been submitted to Pedo. Following today's meeting and the agreement of who's going to step into the breach, we'll arrange a meeting for the relevant pop parties and the planning consultant to assist you and to help you out sort of how to present our case in this appeal. Thank you. Just confirm, Pedo please, just for those. Yeah. And what we've got here, Pedo, obviously the planning inspector, they run the appeal. It's an informal hearing, so I'll be sitting in a room with the inspector and the appellant's opposite you, but our planning consultant will guide you on that. Local members can obviously attend in that capacity as opposed to representing the planning committee. We need someone to represent the planning committee. That's what we're here for today. The local members will be invited to attend anyway. Thank you. Okay. You're happy that with the Councillor King or do you want to say anything? Are you happy for me to go forward with finding two members to sit on behalf of the committee? I'm happy for you to go forward with it. Thank you Chair. Attendent, Jack, about do we have anyone who's happy? So I'll bring in, come to the chart, please. I'd like to represent the planning committee. As I did second, the proposal that our late dear friend, Peter, wanted to vote against the plans. So I'd like to represent. Okay. And hopefully my colleagues, Councillor King and Councillor James will be present. But so I could be one. All right. Okay. And I don't mind going. Okay. Let's do it. Thank you. Okay. Anyone else on committee? Okay. We've got one. If we've got no one else willing to commit today, we can do it after the meeting. Yeah. Anyone? Did I see your hand? Okay. Okay. Okay. All right. Okay. So we've got one and officers. If you can email the officers, if anyone else wishes to take part, but the local members can take part anyway, which is fine. Thank you, Councillor. Okay. Can we just have a show of hands that we're happy with Councillor Charred to do it, please? Okay. That's you. I'm in this. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's it. Offices and members. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Jock-A-Vow. I'm going to close the meeting. Jock-A-Vow.