Subscribe to updates
You'll receive weekly summaries about Lambeth Council every week.
If you have any requests or comments please let us know at community@opencouncil.network. We can also provide custom updates on particular topics across councils.
Licensing Sub-Committee - Thursday 5 September 2024 7.00 pm
September 5, 2024 View on council website Watch video of meetingTranscript
and before we go any further can I ask the nominations for the chair I nominate Chancellor Robson I second that thank goodness for that so with that Kaya we can count down and start the meeting start the recording of the meeting in 5 4 3 2 1 good evening and welcome everyone to this meeting of the licensing subcommittee I'm as I've introduced councillor David Robson before we start the proceedings of the meeting I've got a few announcements to make about the meeting rules this meeting is hosted by Lambeth and has been broadcast live via audio minutes and recordings may be used for quality and training purposes in the event that this technical issues require the meeting to be adjourned and it cannot be restarted within a few minutes further updates will be posted on the council's democracy X slash Twitter account whatever you call it which is at lbl democracy those of you that haven't left Twitter yet anyway there is no scheduled fire alarm sorry this has been taken from when we were inside so yes there's no fire alarms if you hear fire alarms in your building I'd be a bit concerned maybe you should leave but there's no that's definitely not scheduled in mine to ensure that the meeting runs smoothly only one individual be allowed to speak at any time please ensure that your microphones are not muted when you're asked to speak can I please make sure that you've got your names clearly stated on your profile and if you're speaking please make sure that you're in a presentable place to speak to us with good lighting I'm not expecting something Hollywood wise but just so enough that we can see in here you and have accessibility to you and oh sorry sorry I've got adjusted keep muted just as we're doing the introductions please Matthew thank you if I request that an individual stop speaking they should do so immediately interruptions may result and you've been disconnected from the meeting members of the public are welcome to record or tweet the public proceedings of the meeting and please note the subcommittee will notify interested parties of its decision on each application within five working days and that's the introduction to the meeting just would invite to ask if there are any declarations of interest counselors none and I'm a representative Clapham town of which one of the applications we're hearing is tonight but just for the sake of minutes I've had no conversations with the applicants in the run-up to tonight's proceedings I'll now just ask our officers to introduce themselves if that is okay not to necessarily introduce the case but just to introduce who they are from Lambeth is Pam and Paul here yep my name's Pamela Riley I'm a licensing officer thank you Paul if you're around I don't think he's in here yet to see oh well that's strange can we get Paul in Jean-Marc do you want to introduce yourself that's good evening everyone my name's Jean-Marc move calm and I'm a lawyer and I work in leap Lambeth legal services I'm also the legal advisor to this committee thank you Kaya he's there hopefully sorry apologies counselor good evening everybody my name is Kyle small and I'll be taking the minutes for tonight thank you and Leo co good evening everyone my name is Luke my become a democratic officers democratic services officer and I will be supporting Kaya thank you very much okay so the way we're going to run it this evening the first application of that's going to be up is the Gypsy Hill brewing company is the applicant or the agent speaking about half the applicant here that's you mr. Alfred yes brilliant counselors thank you thank you at second we will be hearing willows deli limited so that's mr. Bolton and miss ho I'm sorry I pronounced that right is that house is it house yep good I've got that one right brilliant thanks very much welcome and finally we will be here in Piri Piri so and that is I believe mr. Pancho yes thank you very much here thanks very much so and representations from residents you'll be called in at some point relevant to the hearing so if you want to keep your cameras off until it comes to that hearing that's that's completely fine or if you want to observe the proceedings these things can be quite long so we wouldn't hold it against you if you just pop the camera off and dip in and out except for those who are here to participate in the one that they want to have a representation against so without further ado let's start with the Gypsy Hill brewing company and I'm gonna ask Pam if you could please present the report Thank You chair this is an application for a new premises license for the Gypsy Hill brewery company at units 5 & 6 106 Hamilton Road London Southwest 27 9 SF seeking for the authorization for films indoors Monday to Sunday 11 to 11 p.m. sale of alcohol on and off the premises Monday to Sunday 11 a.m. till 2300 from 2300 on New Year's Eve till 2 a.m. on New Year's Day recorded music inside on 2300 on New Year's Eve 2300 to 2 a.m. on New Year's Day late night refreshment on New Year's Eve 2300 to 22 a.m. on New Year's Day hours open hours of opening are 11 to 11 p.m. and on New Year's Eve 2300 to 2 a.m. the following day in attendance for the applicant is Luke Elford representing Mike Mike Hardat and Lucy Joyner and there were four representations submitted against the application from members of the public and sorry three representation from members of the public and one from the local authority and one was from Ed and Joe Watson one was from Chris Armistead and Alan Webster and one was from Chuck's Chundu and the licensing representation was from Paul Richards the application can be found from page 13 to 21 of the report plans are at page 22 to 29 of the report applicants considerations are at page 23 to 27 and 31 to 35 the representations at are at page 37 to 49 and a copy of the existing license for unit 5 is at page 51 to 61 following the publication of this of the report a number of documents were received from the applicant in support of their application and also photos were received from one of the objectors in support of his objection all documents and photos have been circulated to all parties for their information and consideration and this concludes my introduction if there are any questions for me please. Mitte no questions at this stage? No then at this is at the point where we bring in Mr. Elford to speak on behalf of the applicant. Mr. Elford you have between three and five minutes to introduce and then of course we'll have some questions afterwards. Of course Councillors a very good evening to you all. Before I dip into my three to five minutes perhaps if I just introduce Mike Huddart who's part of the senior leadership team at the Gypsy Hill Brewery. Mike you can just turn your camera on say hi thank you and also Alice Jonet who is the operations manager and the designated premises supervisor just wanted you to see those both. Councillors I know that the paperwork has all been circulated but just because this is online I'd just like to do a quick check with you if I may. Our paperwork is our main bundle that starts with the cover sheet and ends with photos of the interior spaces can I just check that you've all got that? Do you know what can you give us a page number? I don't think it will be paginated I certainly don't have a paginated copy it's it's got the Gypsy Hill logo on it says units five and six Hamilton Road Industrial Estate application. From page 23 I believe isn't that yeah? If there's been a supplemental agenda published perhaps. Can you confirm that Pam please? The documents that were supplied to you on Tuesday by Kaya and Jackie they were sorry Monday they were they were supplied to you on Monday circulated to you on Monday and it's got the logo on the front. So just to check that you have that you've got our updated conditions and our draft external management plan. All of that with you? I can see a Councillor garden nodding thank you. Councillors as you've heard this is an application for a new premises license and I'm very mindful both of the time limits imposed upon me and the amount that you have to get through this evening with three applications and you've got a very full agenda indeed. A great deal of what I would have said to you tonight I have put into my written submissions and I hope those are helpful to you. So if I may I'm going to focus my time on what we believe the main issue between the parties is and that is the use of the external area immediately outside units five and six we don't believe there are specific issues with the internal operation. So we would like to use the external area and included within the application is a plan that shows the area that we'd like to use. Now although reference is made to this being a very large area one of the residents very helpfully sent in a photo that actually shows quite how large the industrial estate is and the external area with reference to that. It's actually not that large an area at all in the overall context of the site. So the hours we would like to use the external area for from 11 in the morning until half past 9 in the evening and after that time customers will not be able to use the area other than perhaps to have a cigarette and of course we have already agreed that they won't be able to take drinks outside with them and that will make sure that they can't use any of the seating after it's closed off. Usually there will be no more than 10 smokers however if both units are in operation we will need two smoking areas and a maximum of 20. Notices will be displayed in the smoking areas asking customers to be quiet and that is going to be reinforced by staff and the Councillors the management of this external area is going to be highly regulated and you will have seen that we've submitted an external management plan that sets out in great detail how we are going to do that. The areas are going to be laid out to tables and chairs and that was a condition that was offered at the very beginning of this application process. There was an issue raised over the fact we didn't show on our plans the tables and chairs that we're going to have. You have a very experienced legal advisor with you who will confirm what I'm about to say which is that movable furniture such as tables and chairs is not actually required to be shown on licensing plans but that said we've now put them on the plans anyway and disclosed them to you. Concerns were also raised about the number of people that could be outside and you will see in our up-to-date conditions that we have done some calculations based on the number of seats with a little wiggle room for people moving past and put those to you in the form of conditions and we've offered capacities. So that brings us on to this issue about vertical drinking and I hope you will have seen in my submissions to you why we are resistant to this. I presented three different scenarios but the main one is this. If Councillors you are sitting at one of our tables and you want to go and buy another drink and you stand up with a mouthful of your drink left and take a sip of it, you have inadvertently breached that condition for us and we have thereby committed a criminal offence and that is why those conditions are so difficult. So what we have tried to do and we really do want to help is to offer everything that we can around vertical drinking without an outright prohibition on it. I was speaking with Mr Richards earlier and I hope he's made it to the meeting. We had an excellent conversation and he was incredibly helpful both in the context of this vertical drinking issue and also the other conditions and capacities and he was very helpful indeed. What we came to between us was there's something within our external management plan about displaying signage and staff being proactive so we are quite happy sirs to display signage saying the vertical drinking is not permitted and for our staff to proactively engage with customers but an outright prohibition on it wouldn't work for us. We don't want to create unrealistic expectations for the residents you know if they had to look out their window to see someone stand and finish their pint they would rightly think that we had breached our condition and we don't want to be placed into that position and we don't then want to get into a conversation about what is okay vertical drinking versus what is not okay vertical drinking. But to be clear we don't want customers standing around drinking in the external areas and that's why we've offered to lay them out to tables and chairs and why we've given capacities to you and that is also why we've said we won't allow customers to remove alcohol into the wider industrial estates in open containers and that is also why you have the external management plan and I think I've probably used up my time. Very happy anything else that you might have in questions but I thought our best focus on on what the main issue is here thank you. Thank you Mr. Alford. Committee, I'm going to come over to you first so Councillor Garden do you want to kick off? I will kick off and I am not. You can hear me? We can hear you. Right I've got three questions I think. First of all do you accept all the recommendations and conditions in Paul Richard's email to you except of course condition two about vertical drinking for which you have explained what you are proposing to do about that that's question one. Question two is what are you going to do about reducing the amount of noise not in terms of telling people not to be noisy but in terms of baffle structures things that will absorb some of it because it is an industrial building which doesn't have any of that sort of stuff and thirdly what are you going to do about people wandering all over the place including up to those railings which look over to that road where most of the complaints come from and saying ah it's all in our management plan your management plan is all about we will tell people not to it doesn't sound all that tangible. Thank you. I think that's my questions. Yeah no problem at all so look Councillors I'm gonna take question number one and then I think I might hand you over to Mike and to Alice for questions two and three if I may so let's just if we turn to Paul's conditions on page 39 of your main bundle condition one absolutely no problem at all and in fact we've added that to our schedule of conditions. Condition two Councillor you rightly recognize that we can't do that. We've offered a modified version of condition three and I explained in an email to Paul and indeed in my conversation with him earlier that we are quite happy to have off sales in sealed containers but because of what are known as growlers where someone brings their own sort of bottle to be filled up with draft beer we couldn't have something about manufacturers sealing and I you'll hear from Paul but I think he's okay with that and then in terms of number four no but you will see our conditions where we explain the two different layouts and the capacities in relation to that they are for your reference 33 and 34 of our updated conditions the most recent version please. Is that okay on that part Councillor Gardon? Okay in that case the second part was about baffling structures wasn't it and demarcation of the external area in that regard. Demarcation just as something physical that will stop the noise hmm yeah in that regard I'm going to bring in Mike if I may Mike would you be able to talk to the Councillors about your plans for how you're going to sort of erect a barrier between the external area and you know the residents line of sight which will hopefully assist with noise as well. Thanks yeah if Mike and Alice if you are coming to speak at this point be good for you both to keep your cameras on for this duration please thank you. Of course yeah just to sort of answer that one we saw through the process which originally started a year ago we've been quite open to finding the best solution we've done research into what type of movable structures that are safe because obviously we are a production facility during the day so we can't have anything semi-permanent that that happens we've had conversations with planning on a site visit to discuss potential options for us we are looking at different keg structures immediately fixable usable and then also looking at other semi-permanent movable structures made out of of wood and cladding to be able to do that to at least create buffer and sort of to jump into this sort of second part which also maybe answers that sorry the third part which also hopefully answers part of the second part is as it comes to the yard customers we have barriers already in place although not sound defending barriers that stop people moving up into the top car park which is referenced in the imagery and we do only allow customers to drive in and out once with support of staffing if that and that's only for takeaway and that's sealed containers box taken away so we where our marked area is that's the area that we're looking to create these barrier structures thank you yes and there was the third point there Adrian as well can you just quickly remind sorry yeah people roaming around I mean one complaint definitely was noise and I've forgotten the name of the streets I think it begins with an R whether the black metal grating if you go up to that which I did play before yesterday you can see the houses in that street and if people wander up there with their bottles and sing that is definitely undesirable sorry sorry yeah just correct me if I'm wrong that car park is generally gated off isn't it during our operation hours it's it's we have a fence that stops cars and people moving in they'd have to physically move or climb over it but on Saturday afternoon I wondered where you got a thing going on in number six I think I wandered all around the whole place didn't I right up to that grill I'm talking about I'm not sure if you did I did okay well I mean there's nothing to stop me as far as I can see there was nothing to stop me wandering everywhere during the day okay and then Alice perhaps if you you talk to the council's about how the external area is managed and how you're going to stop customers from taking their drinks and just wandering around aimlessly in the larger industrial estate as a whole good evening can everyone hear me yeah great thank you so it's part of the training we do with stuff when we recruit them in part of the in managing the external area stuff are going around collecting glassware and monitoring the area as Mike mentioned we have visible barriers so we have specific points of access and egress with some signs they're asking people to remain within the boundaries that we've created and so the site is monitored by staff and I can't speak to Saturday when you were there Councillor there is a barrier that we put across the car park it may have been forgotten on Saturday if you were able to wander over there okay okay I hear what you say thank you that's me Councillor Mohammed hi thank you I just want you to know about the distinct disturbances late at night from departure and also dispersal of patrons because I think that's comes from when people are starting to leave can we just hear about your dispersal policy please yeah absolutely counselors I mean first and foremost and there aren't significant complaints about dispersal of our customers you know you haven't got objections here from Environmental Health or from the police there's there's no you know significant recorded issues here in terms of dispersal you've got our policy in front of you and you've also got that as a condition of the license and effectively it's managed by staff with the management moving out to help customers out of the wider estates and to see them on their way to transport facilities but if you turn to the dispersal policy very happy for for Michael myself to talk you through the specific measures that are in there that okay Councillor or do you want to come in again with anything else no circuit just got one other question yeah usually with longer hours comes drunkenness problems and these drunkenness problems are associated with longer hours can you just go through how you'll be dealing with someone say someone's just come they've been drinking for a long time they've come from outside they started drinking here and they're really drunk how would you work around that okay well that's that's less of a dispersal thing more of a welfare yeah well yeah well in terms of customer welfare I'm gonna hand over to Mike and to Alice effectively they undertake all of the normal measures that a responsible operator would do when dealing with a an intoxicated customer giving them water sitting them down asking if they can help arrange transport but Mike Alice whichever of you is more appropriate perhaps if you go through the specifics for the Councillor yeah I can I can start and then hand over to Alice so all of our staff we have an online accredited training platform that every member staff goes through in the sense of how to deal with customers management and ensuring that we are following like licensing objectives and making sure that that people are not over drinking and we obviously have a dispersal policy and yeah the staff are trained to sort of support through that with arranging taxis and things for them if the need is there thankfully not something we have to deal with too much if I'm if I'm honest but the team are aware with supervisors and they're trying to to make sure they're doing that and but I can hand over to Alice if there's any more detail and now I agree with what you've said I think mentioning that we have supervisors and managers on site who have higher responsibility and would make a final call but the whole team are trained on recognizing signs of drunkenness not serving people who are liberated and overall looking after the welfare of our customers thanks so just to clarify so just to clarify does that mean that if someone was drunk you would still serve them or if that's what you've heard counselor I do apologize but um no if someone was intoxicated we'd take care of them and ensure that they are given the appropriate support I think what I was going to say is if it would be helpful to you for us to have a welfare policy or to have staff specifically take welfare training more than happy to do that but no we do not serve alcohol to people who are over over intoxicated okay so one last question you you've applied for for license for unit five and six I believe just want to know would you you have a previous license for unit five would you be surrendering that license yes we would subject to the grant of an acceptable license this evening we would surrender the old one okay thank you no more questions for me you took my big question from me counselor I was going to be very dramatic with that okay thank you good well my mom tomorrow and I'll come back do you want to come in on a point here counselor garden yes I just forgot Mike you one question that a fan reminds me of it because last time around the worst conditions agreed it has been alleged and I can't find it in my reading of the document but there seems to be a suggestion that there were conditions accepted last time around that are not in your current conditions and are there any if so what are they and why haven't they been certainly sir my understanding is there were two one was entirely my fault I forgot to put in the condition that customers smoking after 930 wouldn't take drinks with them the other one is the vertical drinking issue ah right but that's the two that answered my question brilliant well excuse me sorry that was coming and so I've got a couple of comments as well and then so representations from residents you'll be coming up shortly so if you could bear with me I just want to hammer home the point about the soundproofing again as well because I mean a lot of the time these new businesses that are kind of renovating what used to be we're kind of not built with the sound of 2024 in mind you know and the base the treble and all that kind of bits and bobs so it was just to re-emphasize I think what counselor garden was alluding to what maybe you come in matters how are the venues going to be you know soundproof to to prevent the travel not just if the noise of audible but you know of them I know you can have sound limiters and stuff installed in but that doesn't necessarily stop the travel of and as someone who has been a DJ I know it doesn't it doesn't stop that kind of travel of music so I'm intrigued to know a little bit about that and I noticed that smoking areas was quite pivotal in part of the application maybe consider in a year time that might not be allowed if government policy goes through I know that's for the birds right now but I just thought it was something to highlight and I'm on the personal level or maybe professional level I'm just a bit more I'd like to know how the film idea is actually gonna work a little bit more because if someone is a regular cinema goer I don't know I just want to have a better idea of what films gonna be played and how is it gonna be like a secret cinema style thing is it gonna be like oh and I yeah or is it just gonna be like you know classics or new features all that bit just a bit more detail into the event space okay certainly in terms of soundproofing we haven't actually applied to provide entertainment other than on New Year's Eve the premises does have an existing sound limiter from its current license and we're quite happy to continue using that this is any entertainment or events that take place here need to be commensurate with the type of building that this is and the the structure itself this would not be somewhere for example where you would hold very loud drum and bass music events because it it couldn't stand up to it so the events and the things that we do have a pretty low key I mean it's not necessarily drum and bass you know even Beyonce's got a beat right well yes cancer I mean it's yeah I think that the point is we're not intending to hold you know high energy events in the event space if you if you look at it what it's used for primarily is wedding functions and the occasional food markets weddings traditionally come with DJs though of course they do but as I said counselor we've not applied to provide entertainment so that's that's not part of our application thank you in terms of the films one of the benefits of having a warehouse type structure is that you do have a large blank wall onto which images can be projected it's not it would only ever be inside it would be an acceptable noise level and in terms of what it would be Mike Alice any observations yeah we we've done some work with locals or film festivals and shorts film festivals so we're not looking to like put on epics and blockbusters and things it's more for small screenings for sort of local projects and community interest we we sort of know the everyman cinema team quite well and we obviously have the Crystal Palace local film festival that we know we are hoping to be part of and be a venue to screen small shorts so it is in there for stuff like that it's not turning into a hundred person sit-down epic blockbuster avatar showing so we're not I could not a commercial cinema and then I think the other comment was about the smoking areas at the moment we have to have them and from our perspective is much better that people are controlled when they smoke rather than just wandering off anywhere and we'll get we'll get to the government's plans on that when we get to them yeah perhaps it was a cheeky question but it was just something to raise and all right well I think that was enough certainly enough for me and I think for my colleagues I think I'm going to Oh when legal puts their hand up I always get Mr. John Mark yes grateful chair it is a question for mr. Alford in relation to the vertical drinking issue are you able to advise committee about whether you're you considered a number of tables and chairs adequate to the capacity limits that have been set in set forth in your conditions ensure and how have you derived or can you reassure members that you've set those table the numbers of tables and chairs so that they are adequate to ensure that people aren't vertically drinking by virtue of their not being sufficient tables and chairs for them on the respective nights you operate those capacity limits you've said I think it's a hundred on certain nights and 72 on other nights and can you just reassure members around perhaps what your proposals are around in relation to the tables and chairs and whether they're absolutely I can that's a very good point so look there are two table plans presented to you table plan a is to operate Monday to Thursday and there are 80 seats provided and in order that we don't get into a problem of one in one out we've left ourselves wiggle room for ten smokers and ten people potentially passing through and in terms of table plan B which is Friday to Sunday or when there were events taking place the hundred and fifty two seats and again the ten smokers and ten people passing through okay that's how those numbers have been calculated but effectively it's with reference to the number of seats being provided one of the concerns from the residents was that my initial condition the premises will be laid out to tables and chairs meant that we could put out one table and just have everyone else standing around and that's absolutely not our intention at all in terms of addressing this year around vertical drinking and obviously accepting that there's always a chance that you may reduce the numbers of tables and chairs presently in the in external areas is what would you be agreeable to condition which stipulates ratios of tables and chairs to people I would have to see the wording to make sure it was workable I need more detail than than just ratios of tables and chairs to people I'm afraid that that's quite a complex thing to deal with on the fly I think the issue of the members concern around vertical drinking and the risk that could take place you've addressed the committee on what you understand about I suppose the practicalities of a condition that just simply outlawed it and I think the issue is how can what can you do to ensure it doesn't happen and obviously people have chairs tables and chairs it's not likely to happen if there's an ample amount of that and I just wondered if if you're not able to consider that on the fly I appreciate that is that something you want to perhaps take away and consider with your client so is that something that we could just leave I just thought I'd give you the opportunity just to address committee on on that issue I think the point is we're going to lay the premises out in those table plans A or B depending on what day of the week it is and what's happening expect people to use those tables and chairs part of the purpose of laying them out like that is so that people don't have space to drink vertically but that's that that's how we're going to learn out okay I'm gonna did you I'm gonna move on John mark if it's oh that's okay unless you want to come back to it no that's fine mr. Alford's given a very complete answer to that question thank you very much mr. Alfred thank you both and I'm just want to check so do we have Ed and Joe here so you mr. agenda will be speaking hold tight hold tight no I'm afraid you'd have an opportunity to question it'll be more that you get to do your statement in line with your representation my apologies and is Chris here no oh you're here good okay so you're both here brilliant but I'm gonna come to mr. Richards first who I believe has got a bit more of an update from us and this is in line with his representations on pages 37 to 39 Paul you're here aren't you yes sure I'm here and good evening everyone Paul Richards here acting on behalf of the licensing responsible authority we submit her submitted our rep and requested a number of things from the applicant even until today I was having a long discussion with mr. Alford and I would say the list of conditions that he submitted in the supplemented papers along with the additional six conditions I can say that I agree with all apart from one part in in number 34 which is which specifies the numbers now there was some conversation about numbers and tables although I'm not in a position to agree any numbers per se but he has supplied a plan of two plans of the tables which the licensing authority will encourage and we do want that there should be no vertical drinking but as discussed this earlier today is that the straightforward condition as so and as mr. Alford explained that if somebody stood up and finished off their pint as they was going to the bar to get around they will be in breach he did say that it would be managed within his management plan managers or management will actively discourage people from standing and also there will be signs erected around the area encouraging people to sit down I we couldn't agree or formulate a condition other than what was said there at that point but I was say all 37 of the conditions that has been supplied I agree with and therefore my representation would be has been all my concerns have been met okay thank you for that Paul I'm gonna come to the committee first before I then hear from our the residential representation so council Mohammed you had your hand up first sorry just a quick question to pull support you are satisfied with all the conditions that you know like you're happy with them and you're basically withdrawing your objections is that correct and that's that's correct as my representation addressed the tables and gave a further conditions to agree mr. Alford and the applicant has actually agreed all of them by adding those additional although I agree the tables and chairs that he's put in the 34 it's just I can't agree numbers as in the ratio of how many will be outside that at one time which I explained to mr. Alford earlier today council garden just to say that I don't have a question for Paul but it does sound very logical you know seeing all the issues that have been raised and the discussions that have gone on what Paul is saying is a logical conclusion to that we haven't heard objectives making objections yet but on the basis that we've heard I don't see any logical fallacies in where we get into at the moment well on that basis then I think should we bring in some of the representations from the residents but thank you for that Paul just thought because I've just thought if you had the most up-to-date information it was important before we then here because it might affect what the reps say so I'm gonna come to you mr. Unchen do first and I believe your representations can be found on pages 47 to 48 and so it's just a reminder that when you speak it's to speak to the effect within what's been submitted but please you've got between three and five minutes as well okay before I start just like to comment on on what Mike said had art from the brewery regards external barriers I had this conversation with him October last year and the response was exactly the same as the response you've heard today we're looking into stuff we've got things in and in a year's time no progress has been made from what was just said to you guys but and and so anyway I mean I'll start with my my representation I mean again my main issue is with the utilization of outside space I've lived in my property for over 25 years and and I back onto the brewery from Romany Road there's a couple of photos you seen from the geometry and layout brewery estate it's almost perfectly designed to send as much noise as possible directly towards Romany Road and my house I don't know if you've got photos there yeah I sent some photos in you have so the first shows my house taken from the brewery where the outside tables situated you can notice the clear line of sight to my house which has got the red mark over it I think I'm put those in for me and the car park slopes uphill towards it and you've got two large flat ends of the terraces that also bounce noise directly at me the second shows the slope of the yard going uphill from right to left and the green lorry cab is roughly where the tables are situated and also please note the large metal skip on the left possibly behind the fence it the third photo shows the brewery estate from my bedroom window should be noted I don't have a back to my house as I'm boarded by the properties either side or my rooms face the front my living room and bedroom directly close to brewery estate the tables where the where the tables would be you can see and there's three guys standing there that that that would be that's where the current tables are and under the new application this area would double in size backwards into the left as you see from the brewery from that picture the brewery access as I say it's a perfect amphitheater the ground slopes up towards me all the hard buildings are behind any noise made in the estate you know it's a three-sided box it has to come our way a little back history of our situation in 2015 the local residents were contacted by the brewery once to open a tap room so they could conduct tours of the brewery and people can try the beers they're sure that the tours would be small in size and definitely wouldn't cause nuisance I thought this would be fine took them at the word and was very supportive roll forward literally just a couple of years and I would often have hundreds of people outside drinking covering almost the whole of the experts thermal space five nights a week all day Saturday and Sunday we had many meetings and although they did implement an earlier curfew we were basically told they're operating in their license conditions it should be noticed that last year it came to light the brewery will never actually license viewed the outside space and that for years the licensing team had failed to enforce the existing license properly they're now using the outside space because of the code with regulations means they can have off sales in their literature the brewery appear very keen on promoting their community ethics but that surely also means just gonna just draw in mr. agenda just to say just to keep it to be within the representation as well please and we were going to give you another 90 seconds or so okay but both personally I've often found them follow concern the finding ways round up in place and proactively addressing them I've got examples but it will take too long it's not it's not mainly that you know the excessive noise but that negatively affects me because the site is a natural amphitheater if I'm in my bedroom because the noise is worse higher up in my in my property if I'm in my bedroom I can literally hear people talking outside the taproom and I don't just mean in general I can be like I can hear the words so it's just really really apparent I have a young son when I put him to bed I have to close his window because he thinks that the noises from the taproom are monsters and he gets nightmares and often when I go into checking him later he's literally covered in sweat because I can't open the doors I've got gone open the windows and the same affects me I get up about 530 every morning so I go to bed early you know I'm often disturbed at night I have to close my windows or after wear earplugs which are uncomfortable and even if it's busy out there even the earplugs don't work and the closed windows I can still hear stuff so I mean it's just it's the constant noise and 80 people getting drunk in a in a concrete three-sided concrete box where the sound has only got one option to come my way you know 80 people getting drunk is loud and if it happens five nights a week and then a hundred and seventy people on the weekends that just makes my life unlivable and it also affects my property value because you know who's gonna want to live next to that when I moved here 25 years ago it was an industrial estate but you know just had the odd beep and lorry backing up now it's five nights or seven nights a week now and all day Saturday and Sunday people getting drunk and you know as I say 80 people may not sound a lot but 80 people getting drunk in a concrete box is very loud indeed so yes so that that's basically my representation I would ask the committee to reject reject the application because it just makes my life unlivable. Thanks so much for speaking there Mr. Richendo and I'm committee I'm gonna come to our next representation first and then we can do questions to them both so Mr. Armisteads are you there? Yes thanks council I'm here. So again similar we'll give you between three and five minutes and yeah the floor is yours. Sure and I'd just like to start by saying like many of the neighbours on Romany Road there is support in principle for the brewery and the taproom a number of neighbours go there regularly me included and there is real pride to have a thriving local business close by but as has been sort of talked about today and as Chucks has just mentioned the brewery and the taproom has grown considerably since it was first established seven or eight years ago so it is appropriate to ensure that there are conditions in place to mitigate the risk of nuisance to neighbours. I think I just want to touch on some of the things that have been discussed today that are relevant to the representations that I've made but I just want to draw out. It needs to be as long as it's in relation to your representation you can't go off track. So firstly just on the size of the outside space I mean that the committee will have the plan at annex B and it is a large area and you'll see that the external area for unit five is almost the same size as the internal space for unit five so it is a considerable area. Just on the issue of vertical drinking I had a quick look at the Lambeth licensing policy for this year and it would seem that that is a fairly standard condition to include in licenses for alcohol-led venues and in fact as the representations say there are at least one other premises in the area that has that condition and I think the risk of having looseness around that only heightens the risk of complaints by neighbours in the future. The other point I just wanted to make is in relation to the conditions that have been submitted more recently by the brewery and its advisors that there are two table plans one is A which is roughly a hundred people and one is B. Table plan B would have a hundred and seventy two people in the external area which is obviously considerably more than the recommended condition that Mr. Richards had put forward. I think the other thing for the committee to note there is table plan B could be used whenever there's a private event in unit six that could be a Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday night so it's not just limited to Friday, Saturday and Sunday and in fact as the representations from the residents have alluded to it's that there are concerns around the private events, the weddings, the numbers of people and that's one of the concerns that some of the neighbours have previously put forward. The final point really is just on the reference to the barrier that separates the car park from the external area that's within the licensable area. That is a pretty flimsy barrier and credit to the taproom and the staff there for instigating that themselves. I think the use of that is a bit patchy as Councillor Garden found out on Saturday and so the committee may want to consider making that a condition of the license some kind of separation between the car park and the external area and that's all I want to say. Thank you. Thank you both. Sorry Mr Alfred I see that you've got your hand up but I'm gonna come to our committee kind of first because I just wanted to give them the opportunity to ask the residents. So if the residents can keep your cameras on for a moment just while if there's any questions for you, Fan you first. I just want to take a question to Mr Luke Alfred. I was going to say this is specifically for the residents or you want to go straight to Mr Alfred? Oh no then I'll come back. Okay thank you. Councillor Garden. Oh right okay in that case that's a question and a comment on what both have said. As I said I was there on Saturday and I looked and I was up against the grill looking up at Romany Road so I was virtually looking into the house that's just been tender we've been talking, lives in in fact. Hence my questions about what you're going to do to prevent people going up to it and making a noise, A and B what you're going to do to have some sort of battle things to prevent the sound getting there. So obviously in our considerations we'll have to consider whether that's been addressed. The other specific question I've got it is I suppose this to Mr Armistead is you said B says 172 I thought the plan said B
- Where's the discrepancy come from? I think it's a I think it's 152 in terms of the numbers of people that can sit down but then there are allowances for. Oh the people going past under smokers yeah like that yeah. So it's over double the number that Mr Richards had recommended as a condition and as I said it's not just limited to Friday and Sunday it is in fact any time that unit six is in private use which could be Monday to Thursday as well. Gotcha good point thank you that's fine. Okay so I believe there's a number of questions for the residents representations we can invite Mr Elford back I believe and therefore Irfan we can come to you with your question. Thank you my question for Mr Elford is Mr Ochende raised concerns about noise about patrons going moving around you know standing around unit five and six the area outside how would you mitigate this and satisfy the concerns of Mr Ochende? Okay couple of things on this Councillor one there have been three complaints three recorded complaints about noise from customers there is not a representation from your Environmental Health Service in relation to this which if outside noise was a significant problem you would expect so there's that. The second thing is that there is an external management plan that deals with how we are going to manage the outside area how we're going to lay out two tables and chairs how it's going to be monitored by staff how notices are going to be put up how customers won't be allowed to just wonder wherever they want to it everything is covered and the third thing to bear in mind Councillor is we're not asking to use this external area until 11 o'clock at night or two o'clock in the morning on the one occasion per year we're asking to use it until 9 30 p.m. which we think is a reasonable compromise between the needs of local residents and the brewery itself so that I hope answers your question. Thank you. Okay so unless there was any other kind of comments sorry that there was one comment from me Councillor and it's just this point was raised about an allegation that the brewery is breaching its license by having customers drinking outside and that's not correct and I think that is explained to you in my submissions but I just wanted to just make the point very briefly. Thank you so unless there's any further questions from the committee I would invite us to go and deliberate and just would ask those that have been present so far to stay with us this can take anywhere from you know 10 minutes to 60 minutes hopefully it won't be that long but we like to have a proper discussion about these things just to make sure everyone gets a fair hearing so please keep your cameras here and we'll be moving on to Willow after this so Councillor Garden and Mohamed I'll see you in the other room. Thank you very much. Hi everybody just wanted to see if colleagues are back in the room thanks Mr. Elford I can see you're there Mr. Richards my committee are here wonderful and the applicants there as well so Mr. Huddart and Mr. Johnnett as well as the residents Mr. Ochunda and Mr. Armistead I think my eye is still there as well this is your two-minute warning Willows as well so just to let you know you'll be up after this so okay so the committee has deliberated and the Licence and Sub Committee that's the LSE has considered an application for a new premises license having carefully reviewed all the material placed before it and listened to the oral representations made at the hearing and had regard to all relevant guidance and policy having considered the matter carefully members of the LSE have resolved to grant the application granted subject to all of the agreed conditions in the committee papers as well as the following two conditions the licensee sorry number one the licensee shall ensure that sufficient furniture and seating is deployed in the external area of the premises and that the same is set out in such a way as to indicate the need for vertical drinking number two that the existing license in respect to unit five is surrendered before license activity under this license commences the LSE was satisfied that the agreed and imposed conditions addressed all the concerns raised and representations and did so in a way that was both appropriate and proportionate you will receive a written notification of this within five days but yeah that's the verdict from the LSE this evening thank you very much Councillors a very good evening to all and thank you officers as well thank you thank you okay so we thank you everyone we're now moving on to a second hearing this evening which is willows mr. Bolton and miss house here you're there thank you for waiting patiently Pam can I come to you to introduce this one please thank you chair this is an application to vary the premises license for Willers deli at 11 the polygon London Southwest for 0 J G seeking to extend the hours for the sale of alcohol and opening times on Friday Saturday amending conditions 14 and 17 on the current premises license and removing condition 21 the request to remove the and amend is to allow the premises to use their outside area under parklet scheme which is subject to a pavement license the hours for this application are Friday 10 30 a.m. to 22 30 p.m. for the sale of alcohol and on Saturday 10 a.m. to 22 30 on Saturday Sunday and to Thursday including bank holidays there'll be no change the out the hours open for the premises will be Friday and Saturday 8 a.m. to 2300 and Sunday to Thursday no change the conditions that are to be amended or removed are condition 14 no opening open vessels containing alcohol shall be allowed off the premises this is to is requested to be removed and to be amended to add the outside area the supply of alcohol on the premises shall only be to put that sorry condition 17 the supply of alcohol on the premises shall only to be person seated taking a table meal there and for consumption such as a person's ancillary to their meal to be should be to amended to include the outside area condition 21 the no tables and chairs are to be placed outside the premises is a is requested to be removed there was six representations submitted against these applications from members of the public in attendance for the license holder is Rebecca house and Tom Bolton and the representation received by Mathura Roach is on page 96 to 98 the representation from Agnes Oresu is who is not in attendance is representation sorry is it page 93 to 96 the representation from Steve Taylor is at page 99 to 101 and Steve Taylor has been asked to speak on behalf of the representation made by Sue and Barry Keegan and representation from William Hill is at page 102 to 104 and and representation was received from Nick Biskin skin sorry I think it's Greek yeah the representations from mr. Biskin is and mr. mrs. Keegan was omitted from the report in error and has been sent to the Democratic Services for publication the application form is found on page 73 to 92 and the representations are at page 93 to 107 a copy of the existing license is at page 109 to 118 subsequent to the publication of the report the applicant has provided additional information which has been sent to members and other parties to represent the two representatives emitted from the report have been sent to the applicant and published in a supplement supplementary agenda the and additional information from one of the objective objectors Steve Taylor was also received and published in the supplementary agenda that concludes my introduction and if there are any questions for me or Alice I'm open to questions thanks Pam I think we're okay for now thanks for that thorough introduction moving on there we will welcome the applicants and at this point to speak which will be mr. Bolton and miss house you've got between three and five minutes hi everyone and we had Tom and Becky we are co-owners of Willows a one-site independent restaurant and platform locals we've been open since December 2022 and have proudly built what we set out to achieve a space for locals and Londoners alike to enjoy seasonal fresh food and drink in a warm welcoming environment we both work on and in the restaurant seven days a week which has allowed us to embed ourselves in the community our team is also made up of locals most of whom also make up underrepresented groups in the industry lgbtq+ and or women financially our business currently has its head above water however having now had almost two years of sales day to review we were in a much more informed position to understand what the business needs to be able to invest in our team and in Lambeth we've been advised to bring in legal representation but are currently not in a financial position to do such so we'll therefore be representing ourselves when we initially put an application together for our premises license in 2022 we had multiple objectives at the time we were told the list down by inviting open discourse and taking on board all concerns we modified our plans were possible and made compromises that led to the withdrawal of all objections we now have a good relationship with a lot of these locals that made themselves known to us this application only received very few objections we did reach out and to offer the opportunity for further discussion to points raised and for whatever reason on this occasion did not receive a response as many of you know our industry is currently in crisis with huge increases in operating costs since 2020 paired with decreases in decreased consumer spending has had huge impacts on small independent businesses this can be seen throughout Lambeth but also on a little block with two closures of well loved local shops run by intelligent and caring business owners and this is in the last few months alone this application has twofold purpose firstly for the minor extension of our opening hours this is not to encourage more customers to come at a later time but rather allow those already there to have a more relaxed time and would also have a positive impact on customers dispersal the other for the opportunity to apply for outside seating the purpose of this is revenue based and majorly necessary during the summer months to keep our business viable the increased sales we would see from the big shift program will allow us to keep keep up with the increasing overheads pay our team fairly provide more community space and increase green areas in the vicinity we have a duty as responsible business owners to ensure we are driving revenue wherever possible to progress these points to note our operation will remain the same as will our clientele so we would expect the outside seating to be a small extension of our current operation as opposed to something completely new today we have had no complaints from the council or police and we have a lot of support including our local MP the clap and bid many local businesses and also many local residents we have also today never been a breach of our license conditions during the process of this application we have come across points from objectors following this we have refreshed our understanding of the Lambeth licensing policy and objectives and have written down notes that include our own systems and processes to mitigate any concerns our supporting documents cover this in greater detail however here is a very condensed version of our notes regarding public nuisance we already adhere to relevant modules of the pool of model conditions from appendix appendix 15 without breach or complaint to note we are not a late-night venue we will not allow for smoking in the parklet no music will be played outside the area will always be managed by a fully trained member of staff and in reference to appendix 6 and from our experience dispersal from restaurants creates minimal disturbance it is of the utmost importance for us to keep this area presentable henceforth we will add operational schedules for cleaning pre open and post close regarding crime prevention and disorder although nobody has objected on these grounds we want to state that we would also like to add CCTV to carry the new area and areas of the street that have no surveillance we already have a good relationship with the bid and can therefore provide information when necessary to relevant authorities regarding public safety following internal risk assessment the only point of note that was also reflected by the objectors is that of pavement usage having traded in our site for over 18 months we have an insight into pavement usage and the majority of pedestrians use the wider pavement on the opposite side of the road regarding further concerns raised objections on the ground of our application acting as leverage for other businesses locally to obtain outside seating as we will be applying in collaboration with the park list scheme there is no gateway for other businesses to do the same we also reference Lambeth licensing policy that states the authority does not consider that is reasonable for local residents and compliant businesses to suffer because of a small number of irresponsible poorly managed operators I hope this goes some way to show that we are diligent and respectful we are diligent and respectable business owners we understand that Lambeth recognizes the important role license premises play in our local communities and as long as these premises are operate in a compliant and well-regulated manner and that their management act responsibility and promoting the objectives this decision will not allow us to place tables and chairs outside tomorrow it just allows us to apply to the correct department and gives us equal opportunity to make our business as viable as possible therefore we would like to revoke the relevant condition and a license to give us equal opportunity to apply for the park list scheme thank you and thank you both counselors committee who wants to go first cancer garden oh right hello I've just got three questions do say in some part of your blurb that said this won't significantly increase deliveries or litter well taking deliveries presumably if you've got more tables and chairs around you'd have more people to be more food so presumably there must be more deliveries more people outside dropping litter at all that's what you're going to do about you say it won't significantly increase the litter presumably it might so what are you going to do about it and thirdly people will come and want to sit in there they'll be hanging around waiting they'll cause an obstruction on the pavement what are you going to do about that there's about three questions thank you either yeah I think based around the deliveries a lot of our all of our food is actually made on-site from scratch so the so this the reason I said that as a size of what we actually get delivered is not that large it's not large pallets or crates of things so the fact we will have extra outside seating more capacity doesn't make a huge difference on the amount of produce we actually would bring in daily anyway that's funny on that in terms of littering it's a fully seated restaurant so before everybody sits down the whole area is cleared for those people to come in and then when they leave exactly the same thing so we look after the table at every seating that someone would sit down and people don't necessarily come in in big groups like that thank you yeah so I think hanging around outside people come inside to get a table and then get taken and seated at the table specifically as a party and they're smaller groups so they have allocated seating times it's not like a restaurant it's a restaurant with booking so you come at your delegated time so then we would just take you straight to the table there wouldn't be a an area or a time where people are lingering for a longer period of time waiting for that table but yeah we don't it's all not necessarily all but but we we don't operate with a queue so our customers come into sight and they put their name down and then they go away and then we text them when it's ready so there aren't that we don't ever operate with a queue outside outside the restaurant and then just to note on the deliveries is that the increase of food might be slightly more but the increase in number of deliveries will not be will not change significantly yeah thank you Thanks Adrienne. Councillor Mohammed? Sorry I just want to know about extra noise that will be created because understand you say people put their names down and walk away and you text them when they come but some people will not have want to go anywhere else they would just want to hang out outside so the outside area will be more congested than normal and the noise that will be created by that by people probably you know talking walking or you know just had a drink and all the excitement that adds with it yeah I would say so we at the weekend we do have quite a considerable online and virtual queue for the brunch so it does sometimes you do sometimes have like an hour and a half wait for the daytime and almost everybody uses the park we have so few people even when we have say 45 to 50 people in the virtual queue they either stand inside and wait by our like our retail section or they go to the park and they just they just don't hang around in the premises from a brunch perspective then I would say for the evening in the brunch we turn the tables really fast so it's like maybe an hour wait so you would wait for your table whereas in the evening it's a much longer period of time you're sat there because you have sort of starters mazes it's a sharing plate concept so the plates come out sort of tapas are slow and steady and people sit at the table for say two hours so if in the evening it wouldn't be a case of saying we'll have a table free in 10-15 minutes no hang around it would be a two hour wait in which case most people when we're full most people won't want to come back in the evening so I don't think the queue system would be used by us as much in the evening as it does in the day because it'd just be too long away okay did you want to come in there Rebecca or not I was just gonna say we're all going to operate the outside area in exactly the same way as we're going to operate the inside so it's just a small extension of the inside and we have been open for two years and in those two years we've we've worked many of those days in the restaurant on the floor that there really isn't lingering outside from it from experience it just doesn't happen outside a restaurant sorry just another question on that you I know you said in your in your submission that the opposite road is used more than your side of the road but that doesn't deter people from using this side is a public highway they may want to use it so if that area gets busy it will be disturbing your patrons as well so how would you mitigate that because for disabled people and people parents of bushes to manage to go through we don't want it to be too congested where people cannot will not be able to go through no I agree I don't think we would put anything in place to try and deter people using that side because it should be a rite of passage for anybody anywhere so I don't think part of our management of that system would be to ask people to use the other side of the road it's just the way in which the outside seating would be would be used if people are sat there for long periods of time they don't no one gets up and down people tend to leave all at the same time because it is a restaurant booking it's not when you finish your drink you go so the actual disturbance from using that table for example when we sit someone a table down inside say we sit a table of four down in the evening all four people sit there for 90 minutes to two hours and each person might go to the toilet once each now outside we've probably only got four tables so across the evening the amount of people actually using that passageway from that section we would imagine be quite minimal so could you just elaborate a bit there Tom the the tape is there only four tables do you think how many seats we measured it up to probably sit around 25 people if there's a bum on every single seat which is a round spoon that's good to know and do you think that 25 people are really going to be able to contribute effectively to some of the gaps you're seeing in the in the summer months we saw I think we sent some figures in anyway but I mean just for us to be profitable in the evening having six tables in at night for us is still a profitable business and we're seeing in the summer months when it is hot late there are nights in which in November we are full inside and then vice-versa Latin our figures from April or June this year was super super hot the we saw periods in which when it was hot we were only having two tables sit in the restaurant all night so I just think that it would make a huge difference to us I mean I've got a couple of other comments unless councillors committee did you have anything else to come in on I mean I've seen we've seen many of these parklets or types of parklets kind of pop up all around Clapham town down by the high street recently and I think with that has come some issues and I think some of them have kind of got round and had them approved by talking about how environmentally friendly they are and then plant plastic flowers so I'm quite encouraged to see the fact that you're going to be using the local but would potentially use the local gun although I wasn't sure if they were closing down but either way I just think emphasizing about well I'd like to hear about what some of the plans would be for the parklet itself when it comes to the plants and parklets tend to be community things so is there an opportunity for here for people to use to sit in these out like the community outside I know you've said we've got the common right there but is it possible that people will be able to use this outside of your kind of business hours or even during the afternoon or such will the tables and chairs be taken in and on an evening because I think what can be quite frustrating on the high street sometimes and it's something we've lobbied on for enforcement is potentially you know leaving these kind of planters or kind of things that barricade half the pavement out overnight that then mean the kind of lines the pavement yeah it's still a public highway and I don't think it's fair for people to obstruct the pavement overnight so then my first initial two about kind of set up and what would the system be for clear put out taken away yeah of course so in terms of the greenery we had initially spoken with Jacqueline wild who are were running just a couple of doors down from us unfortunately they are one of the businesses that has closed and but we would look and probably at just a little bit further books and we have a really good relationship with them so just supporting local yeah keeping things in in line with our brand values and our brand design of being very natural very sustainable and yeah we have we have plans for for the design to be sustainable to work with a sustainable designer as well as absolutely not having anything plastic anywhere near it glad to hear it yeah I just have to ask what this says the second points can't read the writing so yeah community so I think on two points we want to put in a the idea was to put a bike rack in part of the way down to offer that to local people to use because we've seen that there's quite a shortage in the area and then also we've got written consent and support from B pass next door to us but they want to they want us to extend join it not abbreviate join to say what that is yeah it's British pregnancy advisory service thank you and basically they want there they want us to extend the not as a usable table seats in but just extend the planters past their area just to offer the people that use their service just a little bit more protections I know they have protesters that stand outside there so they want us to offer a bit more protection for them so that could be an area in which the community can use and sit and it won't be a space where we would put tables and chairs for us to use I think the yes the idea about the community using it kind of goes against the usage out of ours so we were thinking of not of having no tables and chairs outside outside of our hours they would all come inside so that people cannot sit there past the hours but in terms of community when we've spoken about hosting supper clubs and and kind of events in in that space but it's all kind of TBC on them so I think we'd go more with the approach of taking tables and chairs in just so people can't linger there to be honest cool thank you so on that basis then I think I'm going to unless there's any other questions from committee then I'm gonna bring in our representations and I think I'm gonna as mr. Taylor you're speaking on behalf of quite a few individuals first I'll come to you and then mr. Rocha I'll follow with yourself so mr. Taylor again you've got between three and five minutes thank you thank you very much so Robson so my name is Steve Taylor and I'm a neighbor of the applicants and live on the polygon I'm also representing as mentioned my neighbors William Hill Sue Keegan and Barry Keegan so there are several reasons why this application should be refused and any one of these should be sufficient to do so the premises is in the CI said it's located on a narrow one-way street with residential accommodation above on several floors on both sides of a road local residents already experienced substantial disturbance and antisocial behavior from a nighttime economy this venue is surrounded by problem venues which will only increase the disorder residents experience the applicant didn't conduct the right research before opening and is now seeking to extend their license it's not fair on local residents that have been asked to suffer more from them to increase profits it's not right but residents will have to keep their windows shut in the summer to reduce noise and smoke from smoke and vaping with regards to the outdoor seating linked to the big shift partly scheme this again should be rejected outright as it simply doesn't match the criteria of the scheme the application is purely for commercial purposes for a licensed premises the application is on the edge of clapham common so it doesn't and I quote provide some much-needed local green space as outlined in the criteria when the whole area is surrounded by one of the best green spaces in London the curb is much less than the required 70 millimeter height I submitted a photograph of a measurement of this in my original objection the width of a pavement outside the premises is only 1.5 meters wide the Lambeth criteria on partlets which Lambeth state must be met is a minimum of two meters clear walkway must be maintained for the use of pedestrians after the installation of a park later I've submitted photographs that clearly show how narrow the pavement is and the blockages but already occur even more so when bins are out reducing the width of the pavements even further as you can see from the submitted photo there's also a bus stop opposite plus a contraflow cycle lane which adds additional safety concerns personally I've never owned a car but my met neighbors do and in recent years the numbers of spaces a local residents have reduced considerably which also goes against the big shift objectives there are huge safety concerns from neighbors due to the narrow nature of a pavement which would force pedestrians into a contraflow cycle lane and road if given the go-ahead other venues such as Meghan's are likely to apply again for outdoor seating so I realize I'm only representing four of us but there's a significant number of local residents who are against the proposal clearly this narrow street is in the CIZ with a large number of residential flats immediately above and it's totally inappropriate for the partlet scheme according to Lambeth's own criteria and then finally this application is also a poor reflection on Willows who only avoided considerable objections and delays to their initial license application by saying that they would not apply for outdoor seating and this was kindly confirmed by licensing in an email on the 3rd of November thank you very much thank you mr. Taylor just before we go to Mr. Roach I should emphasize not emphasize highlight that the cumulative impact zone which is the CIZ is currently not in place in Clapham at the moment but because it's under review that doesn't mean however that we shouldn't take it into consideration okay thank you mr. Roach good evening councillors thanks very much for your time so my name is Matt Roach I live opposite Willows in the Wingate Square apartment building which is the one on the other side of the road to Steve's one the polygon I actually represent 11 other apartments I didn't realize I had to submit written confirmations I did that this morning but so that's probably not official but I do represent a large number of apartments and over 30 residents and many more I know who I've not managed to contact her against this objection there are two really primary objections we have one is you know the kind of the access and the safety which I think Steve has sort of explained very well the one I'd like to talk to you about really is is the prevention of public nuisance particularly the noise so you know that the noise nuisance I'm you know we're complaining about is not the disturbance or drunken people at night time although that does happen but particularly you know that the hum of chatter punctuated by laughter and occasional shouting which you can't stop people doing when they're sitting outside and that particularly happens you know warm weather in the evenings and that's the time when we you know in the evenings when we want to sit in our homes and enjoy our homes in the warm weather we want to have our windows open and at the moment already we can't sleep with our windows open and this will create this noise constantly during the daytime when I was referenced appendix 6 in your licensing policy saying restaurants don't make you know have minimal disturbance and I would say that's not the case when there's outdoor seating and particularly if drinking alcohol is involved because the volume of that chatter goes up they can't you know you can train the staff all you want but they can't go out and tell people to be quiet and not not talk it's just you know that's just not practical people are going to sit out there and they're going to chat and enjoy themselves the second thing I'd like to highlight to you is this isn't this isn't a straightforward case of just putting seats outside a restaurant and if you haven't visited the site and you don't know the history of what's been going on here there's there's a few things I'd like to highlight to you that really exacerbate this nuisance the first is the location of Willows itself which is kind of what Steve referred to it's it's in the middle of a concrete corridor of apartment buildings so what that means is you know and I'm right in the middle of that corridor but for like you know a hundred meters maybe 200 meters either side of me any noise created in this corridor reverberates up and down and most restaurants when they're in the proper zones they're open on one side so all that noise dissipates out that's not what happens here it reverberates up and down it goes into all of our living room and bedrooms and all of these you know 30 or 40 apartments right around this this venue I'm having screens or plants that's that's not going to make a difference because this noise will bounce around all over the place the second thing I wanted to point out to you was that you know and we Steve referred to this if Willows get permission there are two other venues Meghan's and number 32 which are pretty much next door also in this concrete corridor who will apply who's also will apply for outdoor seating Willows in their statements said that the that their food led and these are drink led that's just not true they are both restaurant cafes like Willows it's one of many unfortunately misleading and untrue statements from from Tom and Becky and we will now have like three of and we have three of the most popular restaurants now in Clapham all around our entrance to our building and all outside our apartments in a residential area and what we are really concerned about is we will have all these people sitting out on the street I mean 25 for Willows I mean I was thinking it was going to be five or five or six 25 people plus other venues it's gonna be like a street party the third thing I'd like to raise is that I don't know if you're aware but we thought we fought as residents a long battle like two or three years in the lot in recent years with Meghan's Willows neighborhood restaurant who repeatedly applied for planning permission through outdoor seating and this permission was repeatedly and consistently refused by the planning authorities for these same reasons that we are raising now for the noise nuisance for access and safety for crowding it can contravened many Lambeth policies and bylaws and they didn't get it and what what is so you know upsetting with Willows in this application is that when this when this application went in there were many many ejections from residents and again I was representing about you know 15 apartments and we said look you know please don't do this this is this is not a hospitality unit this is a shop and these units that all in this corridor all shops for a reason and they they are not set up for hospitality they don't have waste facilities stories they don't have delivery you know there's going to be deliveries which there are all through the night which willows have had many complaints about they create food smells but most importantly there is no open space for the noise to dissipate and they are not you know they are surrounded by apartments and we were going to go to planning committee and we were going to stop them and we begged Willows and we said there are empty hospitality units hundred meters one way and 100 meters the other please go into those where we won't have these issues they insisted on going into a shop unit they asked us to drop our suggestions if we made a deal with them and so we look we didn't want to stop a local business moving in it's good for the community so in good faith you know myself and Steve representing lots of the residents here made an agreement one of the conditions was that they agreed to was that they wouldn't apply to outdoors outdoor seating now it's my belief that we could have got that stopped in the planning process and stop this business they are now trying to circumvent that and avoid the planning process by going through the parklet scheme now I don't know if that's legal or what or whatever but surely that that is immoral and that must count for something with the licensing committee surely so you know for these reasons I would please beg you I know you have a balance of priorities to consider and they they told a very lovely story there about helping the community and supporting them they are not going to let the community sit in those seats it's gonna have you know it may insert input their revenue I'm not so sure about them you know that it's going to be make or break for their business I honestly don't believe anything they say anymore but what I can tell you is that the impact on the community will be will be negligible but it will have the enormous negative effect on not only myself but the residents all the residents in this building and the one opposite and it could I it's probably got to about five minutes there mr. Rocha that's okay that's my final comment so thank you very much for your time thank you and committee is there any questions you'd like to give to either of our residents represent representations mr. garden I think I'll start with Steve Taylor I just sort of clarification something are the is the suggestion that the tables and chairs will be placed on more than just the car park spaces because your implications seem to be that they'd be spreading more on the pavement than the car parking places are yeah your section your that is that is right obviously the car parking spaces will go but it's all the extras people are sitting down and also when other residents of the flats are putting their bins out like the were in that photograph so I'm aware it is the car parking space that would be removed but it'll still create further obstructions in my mind okay that answers that one the I mean I won't I won't ask questions about previous applications and what alleged to be said or not because this is a licensing application by one place for one specific thing and and what may have happened before could be irrelevant and what effect it might have on other people on other people perhaps bidding could be irrelevant where you know we're obliged as a licensing authority to consider the precise application not that other people might come and want to do the same thing so I don't have questions on that aspect but I'm just eating but there's anything tangible I can ask here it's very difficult to see anything really specifically because this as the chair has said the CIZ doesn't in fact exist so we can't take it as something that that affects this because it's not in place in them so I'll hand over to my colleague and fire away sorry I don't know question I just wanted to clarify something that yeah you got a is that to mr. Matthew Roach is that is there something else is that your Siri so the only thing I wanted to say was what my council garden said was about each application is seen on its own merits other applications as you say mr. Roach is that they may apply after willows but each application is seen individually we can't be judgmental if we if we or if we don't give no willows and the application someone else would apply or not so unfortunately we can't take into account other applicants they will be seen by probably different committee members and different decisions will be made thank you both for clarifying that there was something I was gonna do in my bit as well but good to save me talk a bit more but thank you both for those representations and I think we'll probably then if there was any other kind of final questions to the applicants committee I mean I suppose giving everything in mind what you've heard from the residents I suppose I'm intrigued that you know why now for this application you know as he said you've just kind of got going in 2022 it's been 18 months I mean it's not you don't have to answer but I'm just intrigued just given what we've heard why why the feeling for this now yeah so I think last summer and we hadn't even been open for a year and we were still working dreadfully long hours and we didn't really have the headspace to step back and review sales and and have a wider picture of things whereas we're now in a slightly more fortunate position that we have two years sales we have had more time to analyze these things and a bit more space and that's why that's why now also I think from from your first year in a restaurant you see like a spike in sales because people are excited to try you so after 18 months you really see where your natural sales then sit and where you're at because it's hard to tell from the first ten months because it's so it's so all over the place but doing our sales month by month now I know it has been said but we're happy to report in any way necessary but it is a point where we are just head above water every single month and this seems the way that especially where the community use that area is it would be the best thing for us to survive. Erfan and then I think we'll leave to deliberate. Sorry chair I just want to as you've moved over to the applicants I just wanted to check after listen to the residents about noise and public nuisance how would you be tackling that because or as Mr Rhodes said all the noise reverberates back into like 15 buildings how would you be tackling that and addressing that issue if you were granted the license yeah yeah I think there was two there was two points on public nuisance one was about smoke and vapes but it is a nose it will be a no smoking area entirely so we don't want residents to be concerned that there'll be smoke going to people's windows that is just not the area that people will be smoking and then the the second one about the noise reverberating throughout we again we are we want to just push forward how food led we are we are not like Megan's where it is drink lab we're not number 32 which is a bar that especially using the even is the bar that then you have some food with we are specifically a food led venue so yes people do have a glass of wine but people and we don't do bottomless bunches we're not a venue where people will people don't leave our venue drunk like that's not the purpose why you would come to us so yes we can't avoid the fact they would be noisier we do agree that that would be the case but we adhere to so many conditions which make us a restaurant venue which we would be more than happy to carry on outside like the fact it's all table service and it's all sit-down drinking there's no vertical drinking is that venue we're happy to stick to those conditions thank you so a committee and this is any other questions mr. Panchol I was just gonna give you a kind of heads up as well say thanks for being very patient and that must be difficult waiting to be the last hearing but yes I will just invite the others please stay with us for now and we will be back in a due course thank you very much for considering me hi everyone sorry about that it wasn't let me come back in for some reason um are the applicants objectors my committee all officers all here lovely okay let me just bring up what I'll written statement so the licensing subcommittee considered an application for premises license variation members of this subcommittee carefully reviewed all the material placed before it listen to the oral oral representations made at the hearing and had regard to all relevant guidance and policy having carefully considered the matter the subcommittee has resolved to grant the application with conditions consistent with the operating schedule and all of the agreed conditions settled with Lambert licensing and detailed in the report back whilst members understood and empathize strongly with their residents concern the lack of direct evidence supporting the contentions about this venue and it's likely contribution to noise nuisance limited the steps that we as members could take ultimately the LSE was satisfied that the application with with its hours sitting within the preferred hours of the policy and the agreed conditions address those concerns and did so in a way which was appropriate and proportionate and as I said we took the complaint to the residents very seriously we carefully considered what if any steps we might be able to take however members did not think it had sufficient evidence or a reasonable basis for the licensing objectives to refuse the license or to take other steps and I will end by just saying the subcommittee reminds everyone at this meeting that the licensing Act 2003 provides a review mechanism so should there be any issues with noise or other evidence of public news and directly associated with these premises residents and others may seek to bring a review of the license and which may result in the license being revealed revoked or substantially curtailed okay on that basis I'd say thank you again to the representatives who came this evening and to the applicants and yeah thank you if you would like to you like you can stay for the third and final act of the evening or you can go and enjoy you can go and enjoy EastEnders I think I'll retire, thank you very much. Thanks very much everyone. Mr Panchall thank you for your patience and I'm going to begin by asking Mr Richards the licensing officer to present this case good evening thank you this matter is to determine item number three of the agenda which can be found from pages one one nine of the published agenda pack. This application is for Peri Peri Delicious situated at number nine Clapham High Street SW 4 7 TS. This application was originally listed to be determined at the licensing subcommittee scheduled on 11th July 2024. Subcommittee members determined that it was necessary in the public interest to defer this application to an alternative date members stated that due to receiving the licensing agenda paper late they felt unable to thoroughly and fairly consider the variation application and given the complexity of the matter and the need to ensure a fair hearing members wanted more time to read and consider all information within the agenda before the hearing the application. Members indicated the hope that the adjournment would afford all parties time to continue speaking with each other. This is an application for a variation of an existing premises license for Peri Peri Delicious situated number 9 Clapham High Street SW 4 7 TS. This application is only seeking to extend the provisions of late-night refreshment and not any other life-spore activities that is on the existing license. The application is looking to extend so the application seeking the late-night refreshments indoor and out from an extension from a Monday to Thursday 11 p.m. to 0 200 hours on a Friday and Saturday from 1100 hours to 0 300 hours and on a Sunday from 2300 hours to 0 100 hours. As stated before there is no change to the recorded music or the sale of alcohol that the license currently permits. In attendance for the application is Mr. Panchal the agent acting on behalf of the applicant Mr. Zaid. During the course of the consultation process there were seven representations that were submitted against the application. These representations can be found on page 139 to 154. Two of those representations were from responsible authorities, one from Public Protection the noise team and one from the licensing authority. The application can be found on pages 125 to 135. The applicant's proposed list of conditions can be located on pages 136 to 138. A copy of the existing license can be located on page 155 to page 166. After the publishing of the report an email was sent from Public Protection who states that as the premises is not currently selling alcohol and they are not and they're not planning to continue to sell alcohol they have SIAs and they have offered to operate a safe space the only objection is that the requested times are outside the licensing policy. That concludes my introduction and if there are no questions I'm happy to respond. Thank you Mr. Richards. Councillor Mohamed. Yeah, thank you Mr. Richards. I just wanted to see as within the objections there was something about the location of the display of the location the application on the shop window do we have a copy of that to see how because a lot of the objections were that it was displayed very low on the window do we have an image of that or any evidence how if it was displayed too low so it wasn't visible to objectors? I'm sorry I didn't expect that question. I can say that during the consultation period licensing did go out and visit the premises and I can concur that it was displayed in a correct manner. Okay, thank you. I suppose my only other question then on this part was going to be given the fact that we adjourned this case to allow more time for a bit of engagement and discussion has that been something that's kind of followed up with the applicant? Chair, probably that question would be best answered by the applicant and the agent however I can state that the notice of hearings was sent out by email to all parties who submitted their objections and I had no comments back either at the last hearing or this hearing itself. Thank you. Okay just a follow-up question I just want to know did the business ever have tens and if so do we have the numbers that they have had tens, please? Yes, Councillor. The premises that were operated within the report on page 121, the premises operated a number of tens and they exhausted their permitted amount which was on 15 occasions they operated under a temporary event notice. Up until the Times the latest was until 4 a.m. and yeah. Yeah so that's 4.5 on page 121. Yes, Chair, thank you. Are you sure? I just wanted to know because a number of concerns were raised by residents that they have opened later than the hours permitted was this have licenses licensing have had any visits about this or is there any concerns around that they have or is this within the tens that they have operated so just want clarity on that. I would say visits were made to the premises and they were operating under the tens which the dates are listed on that page. But they operated outside the hours where they haven't had the tens? Not from any findings from licensing. Okay, thank you. On that basis shall we then thank you. Sorry I know it's a bit different this time. We've got a few questions for you. Usually we just go straight in, don't we? But it's okay. So Mr Panchal, so we now come to you as the applicant. You've got between three and five minutes and yeah we hand over to you. Thanks for waiting patiently for us this evening. Sorry, Chair, one question to hold if possible, if you allow me. Jett, go on. Just for you, you said in your report that there were two responsible authorities who objected. Was that that were resolved, I bet? Were they resolved, the two objections from the authorities? Chair Mercais, Pamela Riley is here as the licensing authority. But the two, I would say on behalf of the public protection, he raised the number of objections and at the start of it I stated that all were concerns were settled apart from that the application is beyond the licensing policy. Thank you. Okay, so on that basis can I ask you to present them please, Mr Panchal. Yeah, thank you very much, Chair. Chair, I'm going to quickly give you the background of the applicant because that is important in running such a premises on a later times. He has bought this place in 10th of January, started this venue in February. He has an experience running since 2011 up to 2016. In 2016 to 2018 he ran a Brixton High Road. He ran a premises which had no problems running up to 5 a.m. in the morning. He then ran any premises in 2018 to 2021. Again, the license was granted up to 3 a.m. in the morning. All these premises that I'm mentioning are food related premises. In 2021 to 2023 he went back to Brixton Rooster which was again the license was valid up to the LNR was valid up to 5 a.m. in the morning. So looking at those he has tremendous experience in running premises which are late licenses. Hence he understands what he's going to be looking into. Now coming back to this application there is not going to be any alcohol sold as you as Paul's mentioned in his application. So there will be no alcohol sold. The nighttime economy is very important in London at the moment. We are trying to revive that back and it is important that people who drink and roam around but have some food in there in there matter. So what Mrs. Zaid has achieved in the past he wants to achieve that again here in this premises and and it will be food based after after 11 or 12 o'clock. He so far worked with the council in a positive manner by applying those temporary when notices. He hasn't breached anything at the temporary when notices. He successfully run all the temporary when notices and he's discussed with the council to say he's going to have a safe haven. A safe haven is something that if there is a problem with the ladies or problem with the drunken people he will be able to put them in the safe haven. He will be able to manage to make sure these people are going home. He's managed to all resolve their matters or in or get in touch with the council responsible authorities if these matters can be resolved for the person which is very very important problem. Again he's also decided that there will be an SIA staff and the staff will remain there outside the premises to make sure everything is controlled into. The staff will have a badge as you've seen the conditions laid out on Chairman Page. There is a condition that is agreed if you go back to page 136 of the thing there are laid out proposed licensing conditions and if you look at condition number 20 which says the SIA staff will have a badge. He has an ongoing guidance with the with the local responsible authorities and he is going to make sure again that the guidance is followed up. The objectors have been approached during this period. The objectors have been approached. The objectors I mean to say and the objectors have now been satisfied hence they have not come up to the hearing. On numerous occasions I didn't mention to the objectors if they could email back to the council but they have not done that but we can assure you that matters were discussed with the objectors and the objectors were quite happy now on what's going on. So Chairman we feel having the safe haven having the conditions agreed with the with the local authority and what grew with the number of temporary when notices whereby there are no breaches and they're successfully done. May also report that there will be a bin outside. It will be looked after that bin because people tend to eat and people tend to throw the rubbish but the rubbish will be cleared every half an hour to make sure rubbish is not there and then a lot of care will be taken because there will be a safe haven created at the premises. Chairman I'm happy to take any questions and we can. Brilliant thank you for that. Committee, any burning questions? Oh you both went up at the same time. Adrian you've gone first the last two rounds. I withdraw unreservedly. Thank you I just wanted to know about how like you know are you a seat in area or are you a takeaway place? It is a take away as we mentioned in the in the conditions if you read the conditions down slowly it will say that we will not be having any tables and chairs after midnight so after 11 o'clock 12 o'clock tables and chairs there are there are about four four four to five people sitting area which will be removed after 12 o'clock and there will be only a takeaway and delivery services after after midnight. Okay and as you said you'll be delivery services would it be Ubers and bike shares and all of that that would be taken away how would they be managed and because that would permit to more noise and nuisance be made outside? Yeah so basically as you know where we are situated on the number nine platform high chase that's the bus stop bus lane in front of us yes so it's double red lane as well so no bikers can stop there and there will be this specific they can go on Gordon Road and walk through from that road to collective delivery or even the biker by themselves so we are gonna be making sure there's no any noise around or not any disturbance about the local peoples. Okay and also my final question is about antisocial behaviour there's been as you know Clapham high street is really busy area there's a lot of antisocial behaviour ongoing how would you we're worried that this would with people having you know obviously drinking and coming and eating which is good but then the antisocial behaviour would if you're opening later it would drive people into antisocial behaviour and noise nuisance? The SIS staff will be will be controlling people outside and as we mentioned earlier they'll be a safe haven so if there was a problem from anybody we would be asking that person immediately to be put into the safe haven and we will be discussing with them. There will be a conflict management course done by Mr Zaid and the SIS staff which is very important the conflict management course does help how to tackle such kind of new public nuisances if it's taken place. Okay thank you that's it for me chair. Thank you. Adrian? You do and you've mentioned it you've proposed a set of conditions I can't find what licensing's view of those conditions is did you discuss it with licensing have you had meetings with them on them and did they give any response about them? Yes and then we that is why we discussed those licensing and presented it to the licensing officer to say these are the licensing conditions that we need to work with. And how did they respond? I think the response was quite good and the license officer would be the best person to to conclude that. Right I will be asking them that and my second question is I'm just muddled with paperwork now but I did read some report that talked about breaching closing hours you did say I think public protections objections had been discussed and laid to rest but I mean up in the air seemed to be examples of closing hours being breached what do you say about those? We had a tense and that was the which they included that's quite late and so basically it has never been braces only they didn't know that we had a tense with late night licenses so there's the picture and the evidence that provided is the between the tense time of so it's been no practice. I think in reality what the client is saying that and it's true that the objector did not realize that why. It was a tense right okay so it would have been breaking the hours if they'd been normal hours but it was a tense where the hours were extended anyway so that was explained away so that doesn't exist so I am just left with I'll need to ask questions of the licensing thank you. Can you tell us more about the kind of safe haven please because if yeah it just been I mean if this is going to be quite an integral and it's obviously it's not just you know vulnerable young women on the high street there's LGBT hate crime that happens on the high street I'd just like to hear a bit more information of how you will go about being an inclusive safe haven. There are a number of times in the nighttime economy that these matters are very very very much concerns and if such a has have safe haven is created what happens is we can politely a lady might come up and say I've been harassed outside we would put her into the safe haven we would order a taxi for her to be taken home or if there was more problems we would ring the responsible authorities who we have a contact with to say can you come and sort this matter out. Likewise if there's a drunkard person we would politely having knowledge of the conflict management and the SI staff we would politely put him up into the safe haven try to discuss with her sorry him or her sorry him or her and discuss with her or him and then we would arrange for that person to be safely taken on that's why it's called safe haven. So what is there a space within the premises that you've operated? Yes yes it will be straight in the premises. Okay and I think it was just the emphasis and just not just vulnerable young women you know like I said there's an increase on hate crime on the high street specifically LGBT you know maybe racist attacks you know so I just think it's just important to have the diversity and makeup of the high street and especially in chucking out times when people are then commuting home or getting food on the way home I think it's really important. Erthan. So just one follow-up question how would people know that you're a safe haven? It is the most important part is the responsible authorities because it is part of the condition and and people will understand in the we will be putting a notice out there on the window there is a safe haven so if there was a there will be a code words if the ladies come in to say well I'm in trouble and somebody's following me or whatever whatever then we will be helping them. I see you wanted to come in on that point Mr Richards. Thank you chair it's just to help clarify the situation we in licensing are looking at a number of venues being approached and we will arrange training specialist training for from the units of the violence against women and girls the police with the wave training and public health so with that training that we will provide for the venue that they'll feel confident and capable of administrating the services and protections that they will need. Thank you and can I just there was we were mentioned something about waste earlier weren't we and bins and yeah just because you know quite often on the high street some businesses fly tip and they just think oh and they just throw out there in the morning and then the crows and whatever get it and then it just becomes all over and then the council we come under attack saying that we're not keeping the streets clean enough when actually some of the issue is coming from irresponsible businesses so and I just wondered just have some assurances around how you're going to be responsible for this added wastage on the high street. There will be a bin which I've mentioned earlier in my presentation every half an hour because the important part is the SIS staff being outside will be noticing all the time and coming informing back to say there is some litter out so every half an hour a person will go down pick up the litter put it in the bin empty the bin if it's required and then the bin will be collected in the morning. A Lambeth bit but this is what I'm setting my point though you know. Sorry I want to come and jump into point so basically the bin is placed next to the door so every half an hour. So this will be your bin? No it's our bin, it's not but we've got the bin for the authority but it's gonna be, I already placed the bin next to the door in the evening I started so in the beginning we had the issue so from that point we every half an hour we which I obtained the tent like 15 tents during that all the tents and night shifts we every half an hour I sent a guy my colleague they'd taken around from not right in front of my door the door after next to the our left and our right as well so we taking care of our neighbors who does doors as well. Yeah I suppose my point has been not to leave the rubbish next to the Lambeth Council bin then for it to be pretended to not be collected you know what I mean I think. So we have specific time like 5.30 in the evening so it's a designated time area so we place our bin there so if we notice if they're taking the bins on the time if they're not we're taken back into premises. Thank you. Thank you. Okay if there isn't any other questions to the applicant I think this is the point that we say interested parties but I don't think there is any is it unless you're saying something Aipam? No I was I was just going to just reiterate the only main sticking point that the licensing authority have is that the hours are outside of the licensing policy and and for us to and for if we were to agree to agree the the operated hours beyond beyond these times the licensing authority would be on would undermine be would undermine mining themselves on the licensing policy so I think it's exact that the committee is if minded to grant the license application should application wishing to operate beyond those recommended hours should basically consider the the our licensing policy hours. Aipam? Sorry Pam I just want to know what are our licensing hours that we would permit to or we would agree to? So the the hours for that for a late night refreshment house in a district town centre are Sunday to Thursday midnight and Friday and Saturday 1 a.m. Okay and I just want to go back to the applicant if I can how much of an effect would it make to your business if we only granted you hours which were within the policy would you agree to them? So basically you know as I am already financially suffering as serving a bit before there was restaurant here Greek restaurant they've been closed two times and I believe because the the bar that cross the road tropics they close around three o'clock and the landed terrace there's a lit bar they close around the clear around the us the business only the food business is a Rufi's Indian takeaway open I believe that it is going to affect a lot more on financially as well and they also we basically it's will be helping to drunk people to absorb the alcohol thing once they come out so yeah I would really appreciate if the if the council please look at into it and that might mean till three o'clock please. Because again the temps have helped in looking at whether it's a positive way forward or not so because all the tents applied for the premises was very popular with the people leaving the bar at three o'clock and getting food in there in the stomach which helped a lot. I was just about to say Clapham's in no short supply of chicken shops in the high street I suppose there is a point to kind of make but go on Othan. I was just gonna say if we were to you know obviously this will be discussed I'm not saying we will but if we were to go outside the hours and we agreed to everything to 1 a.m. would that be okay for you or would that because you've come for 2 a.m. and 3 a.m. but if like all the way through to 1 a.m. which is still outside of our hours would that be okay or not? Or would you accept would you accept a variation on that on the time of deliberation? I'm so sorry I won't be able to the reason is I've been since I applied 15 tents in the previous time and that made a lot of difference in the in operating off until 4 a.m. I have the record of the sale which I made during the day and you know in the Clapham Highspace is more business economy in the night shape if we compared to the daytime. So your policy I was that you're looking for at 2 a.m. and 3 a.m. but we're agreeing 1 a.m. which is one hour less. We're not agreeing but I'm just suggesting sorry I'm suggesting yeah yeah I know so but within the discussion but I think the point being here is that you're not willing to accept a variation if the committee were to come back with it. Yeah okay Sean Mark did you want to come in on that and then we'll come to you Adrian. Members Chair I just wanted to just clarify Pamela Riley's comments earlier about the policy hours and the preferred hours and the policy in the actual in the report it does talk to what the policy recommends as terminal hour and and if you read this page 119 on the agenda pack it says premises of this type in this location a policy recommends a terminal hour for all license and productivity of basically 12.00 hours on the Sunday, 0100 hours Monday to Thursday and 0200 hours on Friday and Saturday. I want to make that point clear because I think we're delighted on 0100 hours as being the maximum you know time period but that's not what the policy actually stipulates. No and that would be for discussing under the deliberation of course. Indeed it would but it's just to make the point that it's not 0100 hours it is 0200 hours on the Friday and Saturday just to make that point sorry. Thank you and Adrian did you want to come in. I did I did also on page 119 it says underneath that the hours above and not absolute are intended as a guide for applicants to consider blah blah blah each application will be considered on its own merits applicants seeking hours later than those indicated in the policy should provide detailed evidence as to why their application will not have a negative impact on the licensing objectives right so you've got to explain why it won't have a negative effect point one point two the licensing decision recommendation here says the summary is seeks the application the hours exceed those recommended therefore the authority cannot support this application and recommends we go back to the normal one so in other words they say because you've gone over it we recommend you don't accept them the paragraph before and summary includes the operational schedule submitted at the time of the application appears to be proportionate and appropriate moving out backwards one further step what the applicant has submitted on pages blast I don't know anymore but you do a couple of pages of proposed conditions now I would like to know whether the licensing considered those and as to why they don't think they provide detailed evidence as to why the application will not have a negative impact on the licensing objectives because my point is they've said we propose these objectives along with the extended hours licensing don't seem to have mentioned that they've seen those proposed objectives so you know I got some clarification as to whether those objectives those conditions sorry aren't adequate to allow them to extend or not make sense yes is that to all I suppose it well let Paul have a go first hi there I would try within the background of this application being submitted the applicant under seat pre application advice and within that pre application advice there was a number of things that were that were discussed and there there were concerns our concerns about the the application being submitted beyond the policy times hence why the and as the case officer hence I can I can talk about this and and it would probably be unfair for Pamela Riley to speak because she stepped in to undertake as the responsible authority tonight and not mr. Atkinson but the the the reason there was no proposed other proposal of conditions or a mention of those it because I believe that it was accepted that these were proportionate and appropriate having the pre application advice be an advice to undergo some temporary event notices to see how they operate and because there was no concerns there was no further conditions to be provided or put forward with the SIA working or being on site from early hours until close that will help mitigate any antisocial behavior and it will assist the the provisions of the safe haven does that help Adrian I mean the issue was that they've asked the hours to be extended as part of that presumably they're offering all these conditions they're prepared to adhere to and thrown in a safe haven while they're about it just for good measure and you Paul licensing doesn't seem to have said those conditions they proposed are inadequate to enable it to be safe to keep to the extended hours I mean if you do think they aren't adequate say we'll take that into account but you haven't said either they are or they aren't sorry I sorry I think I probably didn't say I'm I would say that those conditions were appropriate and proportionate to to promote the licensing objectives and to put things in measures in place to mitigate any negative impact on the licensing objectives right with the later hours or not with the later with the latest out with the later hours however however so yeah so that the only reason I won't say the only reason sorry so the licensing authority couldn't outright agree the application because it was applying beyond the licensing policy and if we agreed the extension we ourselves will be undermining our own licensing policy so this is why we have to object for it to come to a committee for you as the panel to question the applicant to see how they demonstrate there was a bit of a nod and a wink here you're obliged according to policy and strategy to say no so it comes to us and then we've got to consider taking into account what you have just said yes okay it after on that basis so is there any other kind of was there anything else that you wanted to give towards the applicants committee and then applicants as anything you kind of want to say is a kind of closing summary before we would go and deliberate and then or anyone else a little bit my my in knowledge about the about the licensing since being 20 years in licensing I always felt and I always thought that the licensing policy was only a guidance and not a law and the guidance would be that if anybody any applicant an application you received was outside the core hours of the of the applicable of the guidance again the licensing policy you would still look at it that how well the licensing objectives would be promoted and then grant those hours if the licensing objectives were in this case proportionate and able to able to support the licensing objectives and in this case we did have a trial of it by saying that we had 20 temporary notices to look at how the licensing objectives would be promoted and and they were they were officially sufficiently promoted there were there were no breaches in fact they were more positive than any negative side of it so so that is something that you could look into and say like yes it is proportionate it is good there could be an application which could be in a CIZ zone but again the the the promotion of the new applicant could be different and could be valid for the CIZ zone to be approved so here I am saying that here is an implication which is under yes the licensing policies are guidance yes here the law says yes you have a proportion to look at it then will the licensing objectives be robustly promoted which again we are saying yes is there an experience of the applicant yes here that is what I've presented to you earlier that he has an experience operating those hours in other robust areas so you have a positive natural proportionate in this case of the application that it will be my view because I'm speaking as an applicant okay so that will be my view when you're discussing thank you okay well on that basis then shall I ask my committee to and legal to go and deliberate and we will be back in due course thank you thank you you he's not good when you piece thanks everyone for bearing with nutrient I will lock it in the other room just wait for him to come back now aha there he is cool everybody's all present correct yeah applicants are here officers are here thanks very much for waiting and especially considering that you've been actually waiting for a decision on this I think it was from June wasn't it I think initially so thanks so much for your patience this evening so the decision is as follows the licensing subcommittee considered an application for a premises license variation members of this subcommittee carefully reviewed all the material placed before it listen to the aura representations made at the hearing and had regards to all relevant guidance and policy having carefully considered the master subcommittee is resolved to grant the application with conditions consistent with the operating schedule with one amendment and all of the green conditions settled with Lambert license licensing and detailed in the report back the one amendment is in relation to the hours members struggle with the new proposed hours for the carrying on of late-night refreshment in this and the application those hours fell outside the preferred hours in the council statement of licensing policy the preferred hours policy still is that the premises premises cease licenseable activity at zero hundred hours on Sundays zero 100 hours Monday to Thursday and zero 200 hours on Friday and Saturday the venue proposed to provoke provide late night refreshments Monday to Thursday from till 2 a.m. Friday to Saturday to 3 a.m. and on Sunday 1 a.m. the subcommittee understood that the hours in the policy are not absolute and are intended as a guide for applicants to consider when completing their operating schedules members also understood that each application must be considered on its own merits and that app lap can seek an hours later than those indicated in the policy should provide detailed evidence as to why their application would not have a negative impact on the licensing objectives the subcommittee determined that had not seen or heard sufficient evidence to allow it to step outside the policy in this respect and whilst it recognized that the venue had experience of running to later hours via tens members were not persuaded that this alone was detailed evidence as the policy anticipated and as such were not persuaded that it was appropriate to grant the hours as sought accordingly the application is granted subject to the hours being modified to bring in line with the policy as usual you know the decision will be written to you within five working days and there is a an appeal that you can make but as of this evening that is the decision of the licensing subcommittee thank you very much sir can I just clarify that Sunday is one o'clock in the morning Monday to Thursdays to Sunday I believe was the midnight to the 1 a.m. Monday to Thursday and 2 a.m. Friday Saturday so in short mr. Pancho the hours are as stipulated in the council's statement of licensing policy in respect to preferred hours for a venue in a major town centre no doubt mr. Richards will be able to confirm the hours with you specifically but essentially your applications being granted but with the very h3 but with an amendment to your opening hours yeah so that is consistent with our policy thank you very much thank you okay thanks everybody I know it's been a
Summary
The Licensing Sub-Committee met to consider three applications. The first application by The Gypsy Hill Brewing Company for a new premises licence for units 5 and 6, 160 Hamilton Road, was granted. The second application by Willows Deli Limited for a variation of premises licence for 11 The Polygon, was granted. The third application by Mr Muhammed Zahid for a variation of a premises licence for Peri Peri Delicious, 9 Clapham High Street, was granted with an amendment to bring the requested hours in line with the preferred hours as set out in the council's statement of licensing policy.
The Gipsy Hill Brewing Company
The application was for the sale of alcohol, including in outside areas, and to show films. There were objections from the Licensing Authority, Ed and Joe Watson, Chris Armistead, Alan Webster, and Chux Uchendu. The applicant was represented by Luke Elford. He confirmed that the brewery had leased units 5 and 6 at 160 Hamilton Road, and that unit 5 was the site of their existing taproom.
The main issue for objectors was the potential for noise nuisance from customers using the outside area. Mr Elford's clients wanted to be able to use the outside area until 9.30pm each day. After this time the outside area would be available to use only for smoking. Customers would not be able to take drinks outside with them after 9.30pm and the seating would be rendered unusable. Mr Elford said:
Notices would be displayed outside the smoking areas, asking customers to be quiet and that would also be reinforced by staff and the Local Authority. The management of this external area would be highly regulated, and the external management plan included within the report plans out how the company would do so.
There were also concerns about vertical drinking. The applicants clarified that the capacity limits they were applying for related to the number of people seated. Mr Elford said that customers would be expected to use the seating provided, and that this would mitigate the potential for vertical drinking. The Licensing Authority was concerned about the lack of a plan of the external area showing where the tables and chairs would be situated. Mr Elford said that, whilst this was not a requirement of the licence, his clients had provided one.
Mr Uchendu, who lived in a house on Romany Road which backed onto the industrial estate said that he and his son had been disturbed by noise from the brewery for several years. Mr Uchendu said that:
if I'm in my bedroom I can literally hear people talking outside the taproom and I don't just mean in general I can be like I can hear the words so it's just really really apparent.
Mr Armistead said that whilst he and other residents on Romany Road were supportive of the brewery, they were concerned that, without appropriate conditions, noise would become a problem. He said that table plan B could be used for private events:
which could be a Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday night so it's not just limited to Friday, Saturday and Sunday
The Licensing Authority was initially concerned that the application did not include a number of conditions that had been agreed with residents as part of a previous application to vary the licence for unit 5, which the applicant had subsequently withdrawn. Mr Richards said:
The omission of some of the previously agreed conditions appears to demonstrate that the issues previously raised by residents have not been taken seriously by the applicant.
However, following discussions with the applicant, Mr Richards confirmed that he was satisfied with the revised conditions. He said that:
all 37 of the conditions that has been supplied I agree with and therefore my representation would be has been all my concerns have been met
The Licensing Sub-Committee granted the licence subject to the agreed conditions. In addition, they added a condition which required the applicant to deploy sufficient seating to mitigate the likelihood of vertical drinking.
Willows Deli Limited
The application was to vary the existing premises licence to extend the hours for the sale of alcohol on Fridays and Saturdays, to amend conditions relating to the consumption of alcohol off the premises and to remove a condition which prohibited the placing of tables and chairs outside of the premises. The applicant was seeking to apply to the council's Big Shift Programme to install a parklet outside of the premises.
There were objections to the application from Agnes Orosz, Matthew Roach, Steve Taylor, and William Hill. They were concerned about the potential for the outside area to create noise nuisance. They were also concerned that the narrow pavement would become obstructed. Mr Taylor said that the parklet would:
force pedestrians into a contraflow cycle lane and road.
Mr Roach said that:
this isn't a straightforward case of just putting seats outside a restaurant.
He explained that the restaurant was situated in a corridor of buildings, which meant that noise would reverberate and spread to a large number of residential properties. Mr Roach said that the applicants had:
insisted on going into a shop unit [and] asked us to drop our suggestions if we made a deal with them and so we look we didn't want to stop a local business moving in it's good for the community so in good faith you know myself and Steve representing lots of the residents here made an agreement one of the conditions was that they agreed to was that they wouldn't apply to outdoors outdoor seating now it's my belief that we could have got that stopped in the planning process and stop this business they are now trying to circumvent that and avoid the planning process by going through the parklet scheme now I don't know if that's legal or what or whatever but surely that that is immoral and that must count for something with the licensing committee surely.
The applicants, Mr Tom Bolton and Ms Rebecca Howes, explained that they needed to be able to apply for outside seating in order for their business to be viable in the long term. Ms Howes said:
this seems the way that especially where the community use that area is it would be the best thing for us to survive.
Mr Bolton said that they did not anticipate a significant increase in deliveries to the restaurant as a result of being able to provide additional seating.
The Licensing Sub-Committee granted the application subject to a number of conditions that were agreed with the Licensing Authority. These included a condition that all tables and chairs had to be removed from the outside area by 10pm on Sundays to Thursdays and 11pm on Fridays and Saturdays.
Peri Peri Delicious
The application was to vary the existing licence to extend the hours for the provision of late night refreshment.
The Licensing Authority objected to the application on the grounds that the hours sought were outside of the preferred hours in the statement of licensing policy1. Mr Richards said:
The hours for that for a late night refreshment house in a district town centre are Sunday to Thursday midnight and Friday and Saturday 1 a.m.
There were also objections from several nearby businesses who were concerned about potential noise and anti-social behaviour from customers. They alleged that the applicant had already been breaching the conditions of their existing licence by opening later than permitted.
The applicant, Mr Muhammed Zahid, was represented by Mr Surendra Panchal. He said that Mr Zahid had extensive experience of managing late night food businesses and that he understood the importance of complying with licensing conditions. Mr Panchal said:
looking at those he has tremendous experience in running premises which are late licenses. Hence he understands what he's going to be looking into.
Mr Panchal explained that the premises would operate as a safe haven and that there would be SIA security staff on duty to help ensure the safety of customers. Mr Panchal said:
The SIS staff will be will be controlling people outside and as we mentioned earlier they'll be a safe haven so if there was a problem from anybody we would be asking that person immediately to be put into the safe haven and we will be discussing with them. There will be a conflict management course done by Mr Zaid and the SIS staff which is very important the conflict management course does help how to tackle such kind of new public nuisances if it's taken place.
The Licensing Sub-Committee noted that the applicant had successfully operated under a number of temporary event notices in recent months. They also noted that the applicant had offered a number of conditions aimed at mitigating any potential nuisance.
The Sub-Committee acknowledged the concerns of the objectors, but ultimately decided to grant the licence with an amendment to the hours to bring them in line with those set out in the council's statement of licensing policy. They noted that the applicant had provided comprehensive details of the steps he would take to promote the licensing objectives, and that he had experience of operating late night food businesses.
-
The statement of licensing policy is a document which sets out the council's policies on licensing matters. It includes guidance on the hours that licensed premises should be allowed to open. ↩
Attendees
Documents
- Agenda frontsheet Thursday 05-Sep-2024 19.00 Licensing Sub-Committee agenda
- Annex A - Application form
- Public reports pack Thursday 05-Sep-2024 19.00 Licensing Sub-Committee reports pack
- Gipsy Hill Brewing Report
- Annex B Plan
- Annex C - Applicants suggested conditions
- Annex E - Existing Licence for Unit 5
- Annex F - Noise Complaint
- Annex A - Peri Peri - Variation Application _Redacted
- Willows Deli Report
- Annex A - Application form Willows Deli Var App
- Annex B - Peri Peri - Represenations Redacted
- Annex C - Applicant correspondence with agreed conditions Willows Deli Var App
- Annex D - Existing premises licence Willows Deli Var App
- Peri Peri Delicious Report
- Annex C - Peri Peri - Premises_Licence - Jan 2024_Redacted other
- Annex D - Peri Peri - Map of the Area
- Annex D - Representations
- Supplementary Agenda - Willows Deli Limited 11 Polygon London SW4 0JG Clapham Town Ward Variatio other
- 1. Late submission template
- Annex B - Representations Willows Deli Var App
- Printed minutes Thursday 05-Sep-2024 19.00 Licensing Sub-Committee minutes