Transcript

Welcome in particular to members of the public in the public gallery and to our public speakers who will be speaking on the matters before us and to members of the press. I'll start by introducing our offices. On my right we have Mr. Ollie Boulter, who is the Strategic Manager for Planning and Infrastructure; Miss Sarah Wilkinson, also my right, who is the Planning and Development Manager; Mr. Russell Chick, also a Planning and Development Manager; and Mr. Stuart Von C for. Welcome in particular to members of the public in the public gallery and to our public speakers who will be speaking on the matters before us and to members of the press. I'll start by introducing our officers. On my right we have Mr. Ollie Bolter, who is the strategic manager for planning and infrastructure, Ms. Sarah Wilkinson, also my right, who is planning development manager, Mr. Russell Chick, also a planning development manager, and Mr. Stuart von Kullenburg, who is our principle planning officer. Mr. Niall Troughton is our highways representative, Mr. Ben Guard on my left, our legal advisor, and Ms. Marie Bartlett, the committee clerk. And Councillor Paul Fuller, welcome, who is our cabinet member for planning coastal protection and flooding. A few housekeeping notices before we commence in earnest. There are no planned fire drills during this meeting, so if you hear the fire alarm sound, please treat it as a real emergency and evacuate the building by the nearest safe escape route, which is via the sign posted set of stairs to your left as you leave the council chamber or public gallery. Exit via the door at the back of the building, walk across the inner car park around the building to the evacuation point, which is the pavement opposite the police station. Lifts can't be used in the event of an emergency, and please don't re-enter the building until you're advised it's safe to do so by a council member of staff. If I could ask everyone to check that mobile phones are switched off or to mute, and for speakers, particularly those in the public gallery or our public speakers, if you could make sure to use the microphones when you're speaking and the silver button is the one to use. If I could ask that no food is consumed during the meeting unless it's for a medical emergency or medical need, and colleagues will be aware that they cannot leave the chamber during the presentation or the debates on an application, and if you do leave, you'll be unable to vote on that application. Members of the public and those watching virtually, you're here just to observe the process and sadly won't be permitted to speak unless you have registered to speak. So I'll quickly run through the lighting system for our public speaking. So when you're asked to speak, the green light will display as it is at the moment. The amber light will flash for a few seconds when you're coming to the end of your speaking time and when the red light displays, I will stop you from talking, and this is to ensure that all parties receive the same amount of time. So we move then to the agenda items in earnest. So apologies we have from Councillor Julie Jones-Evans. Councillor Martin Oliver has indicated that he might be a few minutes late. There are no other changes in the composition of the committee. We now move then to the previous committee meetings. Are there any addendums or changes that colleagues wish to suggest? In which case I'd look for a proposer and a seconder, Councillor Brodie and Councillor Price. Thank you. I would just sign those. Splendid. We move then to declarations of interest. Are there any declarations? No. Excellent. We then go to agenda item four, which is the public question time. No public questions have been received, so we move then to agenda item five, which is the planning report. Our first item is reference 24/00-2264, which is Bluebell House residential care, Ventnor, and I pass now to Mr. Van Kolenberg to present. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman. Right. So this application relates to a detached property, formerly a pair of attached properties located to the southern side of Mitchell Avenue. The application, for members' reference, outlined in red, and it is approximately or within 100 meters of the junction of Mitchell Avenue with Spring Hill and St. Bonser's Row to the west and to the south. For members' reference, the settlement boundary for the smaller regeneration area generally follows the northern side of the road and the northern properties on that side of the road. As a reminder to Councillors, there's three photos in this side. The first photo is obviously the front showing the parking area, the ramped access leading up to the front of the property. Second photo obviously taken looking downhill and the third photograph looking back up the hill. The proposal is to change the use from a residential care home to a 22 bed HMO, house multiple occupancy. In terms of external changes, members will note that it's been indicated for putting bin storage to the front of the property relatively discretely. Members will notice on site that's a relatively discrete area. And then obviously to the rear to put in some cycle storage. And again, members note to the bottom of the slide, some indicated, and I say indicated as we've put a condition on, provision that would make through cycle storage. Again, we've got some photos from our members of the externals of the site. So the first one shows the rear garden area here, looking towards the raised deck, which is shown here with the railings and the single-story extension, which again is shown here in the photograph. The second photograph is taken from the raised deck looking towards the back of the property. Again, the raised deck is located here on the site. And then the third and fourth photographs are generally looking at the site access. So they're taking, looking down the western side of the site. Externally, there are very minimal changes to the building. Again, I've just highlighted the member's reference that we're basically looking at a change of an existing door to a window. An existing window reinstating a door to mirror the other side of the property. And again, that would be a recessed entrance. And there are planning conditions again, recommended to control and find a detail of those alterations, to ensure as sympathetically as possible, they will mirror the other side of the property. That is it in terms of external changes. The change of use is to a 22 bed HMO and recommendation is conditional permission. Thank you, members. Thank you, Mr. Von Kullenberg. We now move then to the public speaking elements for this agenda item. So I'd like to invite Ms. Jackie Tiller, who is a object. So you have two minutes to speak whenever you're ready. 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Any further comments? Councillor Churchman. We're talking about the actual application. I'm afraid I can't vote for it. I think it's in the wrong place. The size of it, 22 people living in, originally it was 19 residents who were in care. I find 22 residents in an area like that with what I consider quite a narrow road, I've been up and down it. And my other objection is Leeson Road is still shut. And we're talking about an application on the only road in Ventnor which I think recently has also been shut because they had problems further down the road. So I think it's an inappropriate time to discuss the change to an HMO. When Ventnor is sorted, maybe it could come back. But I still think it's too large a project in too small an area. And I'm sorry, I think the management plan is absolutely essential, but I still think it's the wrong place. Sorry. Thank you, Chairman. Thank you, Councillor Churchman. Additional comments from colleagues. Councillor Richardson. I'll ask a question. Obviously, you were saying it was 19 residents in there. Obviously, there was staff on top of that. So there was comings and goings every day with vehicles, which I wouldn't know the volume of, but I would have thought that. Was there other staff? It wasn't just the owners. I don't know what sort of comings and goings were already on that property. Thank you, Councillor. I would imagine that it's going to be hard to estimate what type of, as you say, traffic load that would entail, but I don't know whether Mr Von Kornberg, are you able to speak to that at all? I'd say I did manage to have a look up on CQC reports. That gave us that there's a capacity of 19. I think at the time of CQC report, there was 16 residents actually in residence when the report was done. However, there was no details I could find about staffing levels. Obviously, it's been shut since 2022. And we haven't got any information in terms of staffing levels. I mean, obviously we've heard part of the reason it closed because it can get stuck. But ultimately, we don't have data on the staffing levels, but I think it would be fair to assume that with care homes, you do have resident staff and there will be a mandatory requirement that they have a certain level of staff supervision per resident, but also you will end up having support services and visitors as well, won't you? Thank you. Any additional points? Councillor Quirk first, and then Councillor Spink, if I may. You seem to have your hands up both at exactly the same time. Councillor Quirk. Just to reinforce what Councillor Brody said, the core of this is the management plan. I am very concerned that it needs to be pretty tight and without there being something determining that the facility has to be managed by appropriately qualified people with an appropriate element of input to ensure that the people are supported. I can't support this. Thank you, Councillor Quirk. Councillor Spink. I think I'm coming to the same view, really, that there are just too many unknowns. It seems to me, so I'm moving to the same view, really, as Councillor Churchman and also Councillor Quirk have expressed, that I find increasingly difficult to support. I don't think it's an ideal position for either a care home, I agree with Councillor Brody on that, nor indeed arguably a house of multiple occupation. And certainly, I don't think it's the right location for a house of multiple occupation with occupants with learning difficulties, learning special needs, possibly drug addiction. I do think that it's just too close to a busy and not very easy road to cross. And we're making real problems, I think, in the future. It would always be open to the applicant to return with a clearer application as to future use. And in my view, we just don't have the information to have confidence in supporting a change of use. I am also concerned about the loss of a care home. And I also think I'm right in saying that it was said by one of the planning officers that the reason that Silkworth, that's the correct name, have been put forward as a model possibility is because adult social care otherwise objects to the loss of the care home. That's my understanding. I've been corrected. I see Councillor Andrés shaking her head. She may have been listening better than I was, but that's what I thought was said. So I'm moving towards voting against this and allowing the applicant to come back with a better and more detailed plan if they wish. And I also have to say, it may or may not be, I think it is a material planning condition. The company that's applying for this was incorporated in 2021. It's got one director less than 10 employees. And I think I'm right in saying where's my notes? Something like £894 in the bank. So whether they're really going to develop this into a care home, I don't know. But anyway, that's the applicant's credentials when I looked it up at Companies House. Thank you, Councillor Spink. I just will take advice on that. No, I'm sorry. I'm not going to allow that on this occasion. I think it's certainly within the remit of councillors to raise points of fact, whether that is or is not true, I think is certainly within the discretion of individual decision makers. I appreciate it's a contentious point, but I'm very keen to keep the focus of this debate. Thank you, Councillor Andrés. Oh, sorry. Councillor Broughdale, I beg your pardon, followed by Councillor Andrés. Thank you, Mr Chair. I'd like to make a formal proposal chair. If people would like to listen to it would be helpful. I'd like to make a proposal. I mean, essentially, I want to support homes for people on the Isle of Wight, you know, that's that's my raisin d'etre for most of the things that come before us unless I see real objections to it. And I have no problem with a well-managed HMO. As I said, I don't have I do have one HMO when I think about it, and it's well managed by private sector. But I do have a homeless shelter that is relatively well managed by the Salvation Army. It's not fantastic. But after the first couple of years of hell on earth, you know, in the local vicinity, it's settled down. And I think I've had one complaint this this year so far. I do want to see this happen. But without an effective organisation running it along the lines that is outlined in 7.5. I have a major problem. I also agree with Councillor Price, and I think it's the three stage-laden plans. It's Bentna, neighbouring parishes to Bentna and then the Isle of Wight. I don't think we want the fourth stage, i.e. the rest of the UK or beyond. Can I formally propose, Chair, therefore, that we approve this application subject to it being managed by the sort of organisation outlined in 7.5? I'm happy to have that amended by Councillor Bacon, who's far more elegant with words than I am. And secondly, with the appropriate lettings policy or whatever, however you wish to call it in terms of who will live there, who they will who they will go for. I think it's important that we have that vote, because I can vote for that. If that was if that went through, I would be able to leave this planning committee tonight feeling that I've done a good piece of work, because we'll have provided much-needed homes for people who are in great need. And they're in great need in Bentna, you know, as much as anywhere. Even if it is, you're going to have to be pretty hill, pretty fit to get up there. Certainly, if you're going to use a bike with all the bike stores out the back. And I say that as a cyclist, I wouldn't fancy cycling up Mitchell Avenue from Spring Hill. But I certainly think that there is a real opportunity here and I just think sometimes we allow objections from officers to get in the way of us making a good decision. So that's a formal proposal. I'm happy to accept an amendment to the issue from Councillor Bacon, but I'll look for a seconder otherwise. Thank you, Chair. Thank you. Seconding Councillor Bacon. If I could turn to you in terms of firming up the specific nature of what you may be looking for by way of a condition and its interaction with the management plan and the balance between those two things? I think the suggestion that got an unqualified yes was that it includes there must be approval of provider. Very simply. Thank you. I wouldn't want that to have to come back here, though. I think that's I mean, that's the professional officers, to be frank. I'm not into being an officer of the council. Thought I did that for 10 years and it was miserable. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Councillor Brodie. I'll turn to officers then to see in terms of how that could be structured. And I think certainly it can be. But, Ms Wilkinson. Thank you, Chairman. Yes, what I hear is that we have obviously the motion is to propose to approve subject to the man it being managed by an organisation along the line set out within paragraph 7.5 of the report, as well as a restriction that the residents are Ventnor adjoining parish Isle of Wight. And if I read for councillors in terms of who are voting on this, that 7.5 sets out that the provider would be in this state's not for profit organisation that provides support and accommodation from vulnerable people with complex needs that may or may not have arisen from trauma and or substance misuse, offering home homelessness, unemployment or other issues. And we wouldn't descriptively state that. But ultimately, when officers are agreeing the provider, which we will do with housing services as part of the HMO licence, we would look to follow through those categories. Thank you, Ms Wilkinson. I'm happy to accept that. So the motion then is, I should invite Councillor Coo captain calm. So what about the review of a year's time? Would that need to go in at this stage in conditions? Councillor Brody, do you is that something you'd want to accept? I'm content if there's a review period, you know, I think we suggested 18 months, two years 18 months. Yeah, I'm happy. Okay, Councillor Bacon, you'd be happy to accept that. Okay, this is exactly what I was practicing. In which case, I mean, I feel that we have debated this to a good extent. So I think in which case, I shall move to the vote. So the vote is proposed by Councillor Brody, seconded by Councillor Bacon to approve this with the conditioning in relation to the type of organisation as set out in paragraph 7.5. With a review periods and with a stipulation regarding the type of local connection, which would be maize. So those in favour of Councillor Brody's proposal, thank you. One, two, three, four, and against. One, two, three, four. In which case the casting vote, I believe, falls to the chairman. I am minded to accept and I vote in favour of this application. Thank you. That brings this agenda item to a close. We will have a short, comfort break. So we will return at quarter to six. Thank you. 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