Transcript

Good afternoon and welcome everybody to the meeting today. Just to remind you, this is an in-person Cabinet meeting taken in the presence of the Town Hall, but we welcome all of those that are watching online as it is being live streamed, so please note that. Decisions made this evening will be published after the meeting and in the absence of the Mayor, I as the Deputy Mayor will be chairing the meeting this afternoon. So thank you everyone for being in attendance, as I said previously, and it is an extraordinary Cabinet meeting, so note that. You will be aware of yesterday's news confirmed in the death of Pope Francis, our thoughts of all those who are mourning the loss of a man who led with compassion and empathy, and really was someone that engaged with the people. I want to take the opportunity for us to mark this passing, and offer a minute's silence, and acknowledge Hackney's Catholic community schools and others who will be deeply moved by the loss. If you are able to, please stand for a minute's silence. Thank you. Thank you. Take your seats. Thank you. And for those of you that would have been able to see outside the Town Hall, that is why we have the flags at half marks to acknowledge the passing of Pope Francis. So item one on the agenda, apologies for absence. I've had apologies from Mayor Woodley and Councillor Palace. Are there any other apologies? Okay. Number two. Do members have any declarations of interest? No? Thank you. Item three. Any urgent unrestricted business? I've not received any items and I can see no indications to bring any now. Okay. Item four. Intention to conduct business in private. Any representations received and the response to such representations? There has been none received. So item five is questions and depredations. So just to note, I've had four questions submitted from members of the public for the meeting. They are all related to the school's estates items. So I will take them at that time. And I've had some questions from counsellors as well who have contacted me ahead of the meeting and those questions will be taken at that item two. Thank you. So if I move on to item six, unrestricted minutes of the previous meeting of the cabinet, the unrestricted minutes will be, they will be considered at a future meeting. And if we go on to item seven, the unrestricted minutes of the cabinet procurement and installs committee, these minutes will be considered as another meeting. So then we move on to item eight, which is the Thomas Abney School, Homely School, Schools Estates, Sagittary Representations and Decisions. Item nine, St. Mary's C of E, Church of England. Primary School, Schools Estates, Sagittary Representation and Decisions. Item 10, which is Old Hill Community Schools, Harrington Hill School, Schools Estates, Sagittary Representation and Decisions. As chair, I've decided to take all four reports together as they are similar, but equally note that when it's for decision making, I will ask cabinet to make a decision individually on those reports. Thank you. So we've never reached the point in the meeting where in cabinet, we will be looking at the proposals for us regarding those schools I've set out. And that would have been based on what came to cabinet in September. So, as I continue to say, Hackney has been on a phenomenal journey of providing good schools for children and young people. We've gone from being the worst providers of education in London and going now into finding ourselves to be some of the best providers of education in the country, with our children achieving, I don't get marked, in the top quarter on all different levers. But I must say, although I'm very proud as an ex-teacher to say, us children have some of the best results in the country before Ofsted removed the markers, we have good and outstanding, all of our schools are good and outstanding. But it's not just about that, it's the rich extracurricular activities that we provide in our schools, and that is why the mayor and I was able to launch our 10 by 10 recently, which Councillor Lynch attended me when we launched that, and that was making sure that all of our children in our primary schools have 10 fantastic experiences with us before they leave. And some of them are swimming, and some of them are swimming, and some of them are swimming, ride a bike, go to museum, go to the theatre, go on a trip, debate, play a musical instrument, all of these fantastic opportunities. And we were only able to launch that manifesto commitment because of the rich extracurricular activities in our schools, which leads us to why, in fact, we are at this difficult decision. Because every time a school doesn't have enough children to take up the places, and there is less money brought into those schools, all of that, not just the everyday education in those lessons is at risk, but actually that rich extracurricular activities that children love, parents and carers love, that schools love to provide. All of that begins to be at risk when there's more children, when there's more places, then there are children to take up those decisions. We are faced at a really difficult decision, and no one comes to this decision easily. No officer joins a council to close schools, and no elected councillor gets elected to be in this position where they have to make these difficult decisions. But actually, because we are all deeply committed to everything we do in Hackney, we have to make sure that we embrace our difficult decisions in the same way we embrace those things that we are proud of and that we celebrate. And that's the same commitment that we take to the difficult decisions that we have before us. We've taken on board the consultation. We've taken on board the consultation and make sure that we've listened to lessons learned from the previous, making sure that actually this process, rather than it being over a municipal year and a term, we've made sure that actually any decisions that will be made and decided on, if a decision is made, it will fall within a school academic year, which is better for the school's community. I would like to end by thanking Hackney Education for their continued work throughout this process. I have to thank all of the schools and the school leaders for their engagement with us throughout this process. myself, Mayor Woodley and Councillor Siser, visited schools and drop in with Jason, Terry, David and a bride-webs of team, actually. So we had people from our SEM department, for example, from our admissions team, all there talking and working with us to support parents through this process. I want to thank the unions for their engagement. We've talked to parents and we've talked to carers and some children as well, also process and also not just me. I have to say that cabinet colleagues have been having discussions as well and constantly raising questions with me throughout this process. And just to thank all of you for your collective effort for this. We don't come to this decision lightly, but it's really important that to safeguard the quality of education. If we think that we love and everything parents, carers, educators, children love about their local school, if you don't respond when there aren't enough children, all of those things that you love are at risk. And it would not be responsible for us to just leave schools in that situation, especially when we're now hearing from school leaders themselves saying it is really difficult to carry on providing the same level of education when we have less children in our schools. OK. So any questions from comments from cabinet? I'll give you the opportunity. So what we will do is I'll now move on to the questions from the public. The first one is from Maria. Is it Fabria Scott? She's not here, so I will ask the question and then respond. How can you propose that there is enough school places when we have to secure school places due to a lack? How did you determine this? Hence the influx of applications because of the competition. Now, because of your misjudgment on school places. So I just want to thank Maria for your question. And I think that, you know, many people want to know if you're making these decisions, how do we have enough school places? Well, there's lots of things that we look at to make sure that those decisions are made and those decisions are made well. What we have to look at the census and the data that we get from the Greater London Assembly. So when we look at Hackney in terms of the school census back in January 2025, the consensus was 23 reception places in Hackney were unfilled, which is the equivalent of 613 places, which is the equivalent of over 30 empty classrooms. So that's a lot of classrooms. So that's a lot of that is a lot of classrooms for us to carry. And then 20% of reception classes to reception to year six were unfilled, which was 3,955 unfulfilled classes, which is the equivalent of over 130 places. So there was a lot of places empty. The council assesses the demand for school places based on the natural and projected numbers I mentioned before on pupil roles at the school in an area. And a number of children requiring places in Hackney and surrounding London boroughs has been falling for some time and is likely to continue due to the fall in birth rate and other factors, which are council control, increased level of migration, the cost of the cost of living. And one of the things that I will say is that I'm constantly asking Jason, Terry and the team, what does it mean if and when that fluctuation changes and then there's an increase in birth rate. And actually, the current schools that we have, because we did something to mitigate this in the beginning, which was reduce the pupil admissions number. So if a school, for example, was two form entry, it would go down to one form. If it was three form, it would go down to two form. So those schools currently are able to expand and take in more children if we need them. So currently, if there was an increase in birth rate, at the moment we have existing place within our schools estate to be able to mitigate and be able to respond to those places. So the second question is from Amanda Bentham. Why do council refuse to look at true mergers? The NEU has suggested offering voluntary redundancy, but the council has rejected it. Surely this should be allowed of any staff who wants to go through more options for those who want to say. And thank you for your question, Amanda. And, you know, when you read the question, it sounds really logical, right? Why would we not do that? But actually, by doing that, what you do is you bring a whole school community and staff into a redundancy situation. Actually, their school's not really at that point where they need to consider that option. And actually, that doesn't feel fair, actually, to do that. So just to assure you, the council is aware of that merger option. And as I said, it would increase the risk of redundancy for more staff in a way that the current offer doesn't. As you also know, the DfE option, so that's the Department of Education option, to monogamate school, whereby two schools are merging a new one. This method, which is provided to Mercia, is not the preferred method to act in the council's interest because I talked about, because of what that does in terms of increasing those staff that wouldn't be made redundant to have redundancy. We have also written to the Secretary of State to talk about giving us, as a council, the powers to be able to amalgamate where it's appropriate to amalgamate schools under the premise of it being in response to school role numbers, as opposed to needing a new school, and we still awake in that response. Voluntary redundancy is particularly offered by an employer when they need to reduce staff numbers due to various reasons, like financial disabilities, restructuring, or changing of business strategy. The Homely and Harrington Hill staff will not be offered voluntary redundancy, as these roles in the schools are required. So, at our recent Scrutiny Commission meeting, Lambeth Council had approached school closures, as was mentioned. It was suggested that Lambeth Council had found a way to undertake school amalgamations under a process that is seen fairer to staff and children. So, and while this council will not challenge the comments made at the Scrutiny Commission by our Lambeth colleagues, I think it's really important to add, though, that since encountering these difficulties with the intentioned approach, since then, Lambeth have sought advice from colleagues in Hackney in terms of HR and legal teams. So, while I'm not going to refute what they said, I think that the fact that they've now come to seek our legal team, and our legal advice when we took a different road actually can show you that even when you want to try and do things that you want to help staff take on suggestions, it's never as straightforward as it can always seem. So, the council will continue to work with the DfE, Department of Education, and London Council partners to determine the best approaches to school organisational change, and mindful of existing legislation and statutory guidance. So, I'm going to go on to the third question, that is from Ronnie, and again, Ronnie's not here, but I'm happy to answer the question in Ronnie's absence. Have all options been revised, I truly believe that St Dominic's has the space to accommodate future plans around SEND provision and community hubs, playground groups, setting as well as facilitating to provide schoolings. New funding in place can help turn the deficit around and make a good future plan on education happening and keep speaking on. So, thank you for your question, and in Mayor Woodley's absence, I will answer the question on SEND, on which the Mayor has been leading on, alongside Councillor Siza, who is our SEND champion, and both have been very active in this process, as I mentioned before. And the Hackney Education Strategy outlines the local plan of the local authority and the increase in SEND provision in the borough. There's a phase approach already underway, which creates purpose, special educational needs provision that has been identified. These plans increase SEND provision as part of the Hackney Strategy, which I said is led by Mayor Woodley and supported by Councillor Siza in her champion role. SEND Dominic's Roman Catholic nearly 1 million of deficit at the end of the financial year, and its projected deficit is over a million at the end of 2005, 25, 26 financial year, limits the potential for the school's financial position to be recovered, and recovered in a time that will help the school to be able to manage and maintain all of the things that they want to do. Therefore, so be reassured that as part of the strategy, there will be SEND provision outside of the borough, sorry, around the borough for all those children that will need that support. So I'm going to go on to the final question, which is asked by Sarah Byrne. Why have the Mayor and the Deputy Mayor not prioritise voluntary redundancy or securing staff in Hackney? Well, that's similar to the question that I've answered before, but just for the importance of reiterating the same point. SAAP have to undergo the notice of redundancy to be considered for potential redeployment opportunities if they are available within Hackney Council. And there are those that will be considered suitable for alternative staff under the notice of redundancy. So one of the things that Hackney Education has done alongside Sandra and her team with HR is making sure that we can work with schools, so that any vacancy with any school is first advertised internally for a week to give those staff that will be leaving any potential school, if that decision is made, it gives them the opportunity to apply first before that goes externally to anybody else. So it's making sure that we're working in partnership because it's something that we've been asked to do. Can we ask our schools to consider those staff that have to leave their school first? And we've listened, we've heard, and we've done that. So that process, led by the work with Councillor Williams, who works alongside Sandra, making sure that we've done that. And that process, just to reassure you, is in place. But as I mentioned before, we want to mitigate the amount of staff that are made redundant at any given time. And to take the approach that you are giving will increase the amount of staff that will be potentially unemployed. And that's not a decision that we would want to take at this time. So, I'm now going to move on to the next part, which will be Councillor questions, and that will include Councillor Lynch, who had approached me and been in contact with me before the meeting, and I will take yours at last. Thank you. So I'd like to invite Councillor Turbot Delof or Councillor out to ask the question. It wasn't clear when it was submitted who would be answering the question. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. My question is, what assurance can you give Hackney parents, families and residents on the learnings you take from this process? Parents, staff and children have spoken loud and clear on how this consultation process has failed to be of fast pace. So, can I just encourage you to ask the question and set out? It is a set out. It's question two. We submitted four. Okay, thank you. Is that all right? Thank you. Thank you. Shall I read it again? Because I've been interrupted. Thank you. What assurances can you give Hackney parents, families and residents on the learnings you take from this process? Parents, staff and children have spoken loud and clear on how this consultation process has failed it to be of fast pace, and that it doesn't yet offer solutions to the core underlying issues related to Hackney's housing crisis, overcrowding, and lack of appropriate support for sane children and young people. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I think because you were quite close to your mic, I didn't catch everything you were saying, but I got it that time. So thank you. So thank you for this question. And it touches on consultation, which has been at the heart of what we have been trying to do in terms of our engagement with the wide school community, parents, carers, staff, unions, and the wider community that have wanted to engage on this piece of work. The voices of our residents are critical to all of what the council does as part of this process. This is why the consultation plays an incredible and important policy part in the role of our policy development. We'll always strive to improve our consultation. There is never a perfect way to engage and we're always looking, no matter how much engagement we get, we're always seeking to enhance and improve the experience and ensure that it becomes more user friendly. And that is why when we took forward the learning on the length of the consultation this time, for example, it is shorter. That's just one of the ways we always seek to do this. By the way of the consultation length of six weeks, this is in line with the other consultations that the council run. So it's important that we all do that in the same line. The consultations were public in citizen space, the council's engagement platform, the consultations were open to all Hackney residents. As I said to you, it wasn't just about the immediate school community. Schools are important to the broader community, whether people have children in schools or not. So that's why we opened it out and parents and carers and staff and school were directly informed of the plans of the consultations by letter and provided with print consultation documents and consultation documents and forms. In addition to the consultation responses, parents and carers were invited to attend formal Q&A sessions. And that was attended by Mayor Woodley, Councillor Siser, myself, Jason, Terry, also David, and a lot more staff than I'm able to mention. Because what we wanted to ensure is that what we found the first time around that we did the Q&A, we answered questions, but there were parents and carers still after the meeting that wanted questions answered. And rather than just go home, the few of us that attended, we would stay there and answer questions. So what we thought, it would not just be better to have more staff there answering those questions, it would be better to have more staff that hold those level of expertise to be able to respond and answer those questions straight away. So particularly, you would have found more staff that dealt with special educational needs in the borough, there at those school drop ins that we didn't have the first time around. So when parents had those concerns, there were more people to take up those direct questions and queries. So I did mention again, so the lessons learned is that we shortened the process, we did that. So the education health care plan officer conducted early reviews of those plans, that's something that we did as well. An admissions officer has been involved from the outset of the review. As I said to you, different staff were involved at different times, we made sure that more staff were involved at the earlier part of this process. And also the consultation also involved more dropping sessions than the first time around. Again, sometimes going back to schools to give that opportunity, because sometimes when you're taking in information, it's hard to retain all of that information and all of us need to be able to reconsolidate that. So we offered additional drop ins as well. Thank you. Do you have a supplementary? To the question. All the time, Chair, so I'll let my colleagues to ask. I think there are more questions that we submitted that Councillor Ruth has another one to ask. Thank you. Oh, yes. Go on to Councillor, is it Councillor Rao's question? Yes. Thank you, Chair. Can I just ask something for clarity first? We submitted four questions. The first one was, we were told, would be answered in a written answer by the Mayor, who's not here. And then we were asked to prioritise. So there are three questions left. Councillor Garbutt is here, and I'd quite like her to be able to ask one of these questions, if that's okay, if you've had advance notice of three questions. So instead of you answering the question, you want Councillor Garbutt to answer it for you? We've got three questions here. So Councillor Rao, if you'd like to ask your question, it's fine. As I said to you, I'd be taking the questions that were submitted prior to that. So they are the questions that are being prioritised for the meeting. So if you want to ask your question, you can. If you want a colleague to ask your question on your behalf, that is fine. But we're not going to have a dialogue about questions that weren't submitted before the meeting. Thank you. But that haven't been prioritised. I think we've set out in the meeting the questions and where we're going to take them. I'm just mindful of this back and forth is actually taking away critical time from you answering your questions. So just to say, we've mentioned the questions that can be prioritised for this meeting. So if you would like to ask your question, I'm happy for you to do so. Okay. Thank you. Okay. I'd just like to say, assuming that the Cabinet does approve this measure, I do think it's a very sad day that we're going to be losing more schools. And on that subject, I'd like to ask one specifically about Old Hill School, which is why the Council has not been able to come up with a proposal which allows the specialist staff at Old Hill, who've provided a dedicated service for SEND children, to ensure that those children could be transferred to an educational setting which guarantees the continuity of their teaching staff. It seems to me that the Council could have found a way to ensure minimal trauma for those children, particularly those children with autism, who are very, very comfortable with those staff who are doing an excellent job. Thank you. Thank you. So the staff here will be affected by this process due to school closures. Do not have redeployment rights, unfortunately, in those schools in the borough due to statutory guidance. So there are things that we can do within, there are things that we can do within law and there are things that we aren't able to do within law. And as a Council, we don't get to mandate that if a school is subject to be consulted on closing, we cannot then mandate that staff to be employed elsewhere. But I did mention what we could do, which is have those vacancies in current schools advertised internally for a week to those staff that have been, unfortunately, having to go through a school closure process, have the first opportunity to provide and look at those roles. To provide a structured and supportive process for those staff and to find suitable roles have been expanded, as I said, on that advertising website. And these members of staff, regardless of their roles, have the opportunity to be able to apply if they have the appropriate requirements. So in Hamilton Hill, Hamilton Hill will be establishing a new additional resource provision and those for children with autism. When recruiting staff for this new provision, Hamilton Hill governing body will advertise these roles in that, in for instance, for the staff who have been, if we make that decision, been displaced due to school closures. This will include staff from Old Hill if the decision is made to close the school. If Old Hill school closes, the children currently accessing the ARP, which is the alternative provision at Old Hill, they will be automatically transferred to the new provision if the family wishes. As I said in the beginning, council route, no one's here taking this decision lightly. No one wants to make this decision lightly, but it will be really irresponsible of the council just to leave schools that don't have enough money to run them and provide the quality of education that they're providing and just leave them without doing anything about it. You know, that that that that's not something that I think is right for us to do. So that's why we're making the difficult. That is why we're making the difficult decisions. So Councillor Lynch, as you had contacted me previously. Apologies Councillor Ralph. Apologies, I'm not asking for your follow up. Sorry, I haven't understood what you're apologizing for. No, because I forgot to ask you if you had a follow up question. I guess my follow up question is that I don't have a follow up question. So therefore, could Councillor Garber ask our third question, please? No, no, Councillor Ralph. And you know, that's not how it that's how it works. And yeah, I'm not quite sure how many times I need to say what I need to say. In a way there's been numerous occasions for all members, including all the drop ins in all of the times when you've been able to sit with myself. And officers and ask all those questions. There has been numerous occasions to ask multiple questions. This is not the only standpoint. And we've taken questions here. Thank you. Councillor Lynch. Thank you, Chair. As a Catholic, I welcome the immediate lowering of the town hall flags yesterday and the minutes silenced this evening too, which will mean a lot to Catholics in Hackney this evening. As a councillor for Homerton Ward, many of my residents will be affected by the decision regarding St Dominic's this evening, as will the wider Catholic community. However, I would like to thank yourself, Deputy Mayor Bramble, the mayor, Jason, our chief exec, and all of the officers for their work that they have undertaken with parents and staff at St Dominic's, including meeting with Father Patrick, the local priest of the school, and importantly, working with the education team at the Westminster Diocese. I'm going to ask you a question, councillor. Okay. To explore alternatives. Please, can you give assurances that Hackney Council's strong relationship with our Romanian Catholic schools, our Catholic priests, and the Westminster Diocese will continue? Thank you for your question, councillor Lynch, and we welcome the opportunity to continue to work with Catholic schools and Church of England schools, and yes, we will continue to work on those strong relationships. It's so important. You know, our faith schools are very much part of the Hackney family of schools and parental choice is very important to what we offer here as a borough. And those relationships with all of our schools are important, and we've had the opportunity in this round to work with the Church of England Diocese and the Catholic Diocese, and we look forward to being able to continue to strengthen those relationships and work together for the good of all of our children and making sure there's a broad offer for non-dominational schools and faith schools to maintain and thrive in the borough, and we welcome all those opportunities to do that. Thank you. Did you have a follow-up councillor Lynch? No, it's just to say thank you very much. I know that will mean a lot to the community given the difficult circumstances that have occurred since yesterday. Thank you. Thank you. So I just want to reiterate the thanks to parents, children, staff that have come today. I know this is a very difficult time for you. I want to thank all of the elected members in the Chamber, whether you've answered a question today, previously, or at the drop-in sessions, or you've emailed me. I want to thank the Cabinet for their constant forensic look over papers and queries and questions and debates and discussions, and officers, of course, and unions. The units have engaged, parents, carers, and we've spoken to children. Thank everyone. I know it's been really difficult and sometimes some uncomfortable conversations, but we're only here because we care about the quality and standards of education. And if we don't do anything, those things that we deeply love about each and every school that our parents, carers, and unions and staff have been fighting for is at risk if we leave schools to suffer. You know, 80% of schools, the money that goes in schools, goes on the staff. We have to make sure we pay our staff. We have to make sure that we can heat school. We have to make sure that there's food cooked in those schools. We have to make sure schools have the resources with pens, pencils. All of those things are resourced. And if we don't have the right level of resource, that impacts the quality of education. No one should want, no one should want, no one should want, no one should want that. No one should want, no, no one should want that. If you're going to shout, you're going to, at the end of the day, you're going to have, well, it's your choice. You either listen or you leave, you know. Okay. You know. Yeah. So, you know. You know, if it makes it easier to seem like I am the bad person that is turning everything upside down, then. You know, I will take that because this isn't an Hackney issue. This is a London issue. Up and down London, local authorities are in this position having to make these difficult decisions. So, up and down the country, up and down the country, especially in London, lots of local authorities are making this difficult decision. This isn't an Hackney issue. This is a London issue. The cost of living crisis isn't just a Hackney issue, it's a London issue. Migration and people moving out of city centres isn't a Hackney issue, it's a London issue. But Hackney has to respond to it. And that is what we have to do. And if that means making difficult decisions, sometimes that's what we have to do. Because when we are elected, we don't just get to do all of the positive, fantastic, cutting the ribbons, positive things. Sometimes we are tasked to make difficult decisions, and we do that because we do that because we do that because we do all of the positive, fantastic, cutting the ribbons, positive things. Sometimes we are tasked to make difficult decisions, and we do that because we care. So, on that note, I'm going to ask Cabinet on each individual report to make a decision. Do you want people to indicate? Yes. Okay. Say yes and raise their hands. So, first, I'd like Cabinet to agree the recommendations as set out in Agenda Item 8 for St. Thomas Avenue School and Homely Schools, Estate, Sagittarius, and Decision. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Thank you. I'd like to ask Cabinet to agree the recommendations as set out in the report for Agenda Item 9, which is St. Mary's CV, Church of England Primary School, Schools of State, Statutory, Representation and Decision. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Thank you. I'd like to ask Cabinet to agree the recommendations set out in the report for Agenda Item 10, which is Old Hill School, Harrington Hill Primary School, Schools of State, Statutory, Representation and Decision. Agreed. And finally, I'd like to agree the recommendations as set out for the report in Agenda Item 11, which is St. Dominic's Catholic School, Schools of State, Representation and Decision. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. So thank you colleagues. I know none of you did that with any ease and I know you alongside I sit here with a very heavy heart. No one ever wants to do the difficult things, but we do it because we are totally committed to our borough and we'll continue to do that. And then Item 13, any urgent exempt business. There have been no papers, so I would now like to close the meeting. Thank you all for your attendance and the next Cabinet will be on May the 28th of April. I'd like to thank Mark, Tessa and all of the governance team alongside all the officers that helped us prepare for this meeting. You will not know the hours that officers have spent. You will not, I will not mention the time that Mark and I have spoken before now over the Easter period to ensure that actually when we landed to this point everything was in place and the same with Jason and his team. I just want to thank you for your continued support in all that we do to ensure we make the best decisions so that every child in our borough can thrive and have the best education and quality that we can provide as a Labour administration. Thank you everyone for your attendance today. Thank you all for your attendance today.

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