Transcript

And is there a seconder? Yes, I'd also like to nominate Councillor Martin Tiedemann. Thank you very much for that. So good evening and welcome everyone to this expedited review licensing subcommittee meeting. I am Councillor Martin Tiedemann, Councillor for Clamp Park Board. Before we start the meeting, I have a few announcements to make about the meeting rules. This meeting is hosted by Lambeth and is being broadcast live by via audio minutes and recordings may be used for quality and training purposes. In the event that technical issues require the meeting to be adjourned and it cannot be restarted within a few minutes, further updates will be posted on the Council's Democracy Twitter account, which is at LBL Democracy. To ensure that this meeting runs smoothly, only one individual will be allowed to speak at a time. If you've joined the meeting via Teams, please ensure your microphone is muted. Any person speaking must be permitted to finish to finish what they are saying without interruption without interruption, although I will set timer and if I request an individual stop speaking, they should do so immediately. Interruptions may result in you being disconnected from this meeting. Members of the public are welcome to record or tweet the public proceedings of the meeting and please note the subcommittee will notify interested parties of its decisions on each application within five working days. So we're now going to come to the declarations of interest. So we're now going to come to the declarations of interest and I'll ask my fellow councillors to introduce themselves and then also take the opportunity to ask the principal officers of the community to also introduce themselves. So as I say, I'm Councillor Martin Tidham and I'm the Council for Clap Park Ward and I don't have any interests to declare tonight. Hi, I'm Councillor. Councilor Ayla Rathmore Councillor for Vauxhall Wards. I do not have an interest to declare. Thank you seed"! Kit, can you introduce yourself as well? Good afternoon everybody my name is Kit. I am the democratic service officer taking a minute for. This evening. Good evening everyone, my name is Ramon McCormen, I'm a lawyer in the Lab of Legal Services and I'm the legal advisor to this committee. Perfect, I think those are the introductions, thank you so much, now we do have some minutes of the previous meeting, does the subcommittee agree the minutes of the previous meeting held on the 25th of March? Agreed. Thank you, so on to the next item which is substantial item for tonight which is the licensing application for the review of ACWM on Clapham High Street, Ola can I come to you first of all to introduce the reports? Yeah, thank you chair, this is summary review application for in respect of the license for ACWM at 68 to 70 Clapham High Street. The application was submitted by the police following a serious crime at the premises. In attendance for the police are Richard Warren and Alan Bay, in attendance for the licensee Marcos Lavelle who's representing the licensee and he's been accompanied by Michael Watson, Terry Giorgio, Ari Giorgio, Paul Vasily and Saeed Ali Shah. The licensee subcommittee report is at pages 17 to 22 of the agenda pack which includes the summary review application at pages 23 to 25, a copy of the certificate signed by the superintendent authorizing the review is at pages 27 and 28 and one representation received in support of the review is at pages 7 to 9 of the supplementary agenda. The licensing subcommittee interim steps decision of the 10th of April, a photo of the premises including the map of the area have been sent to members and been published and submissions also been received from the police and the license order and these submissions have been sent to members and they've been published. And that concludes my introduction and if there's no questions from me I will ask the police to present the application. Thank you Ola. Are there any questions from the committee? No, in which case yes, we'll ask the applicant in this case the police to make the submission. I think last time we were able to keep submissions to under 10 minutes for the interim hearing and obviously we've had lots of documentation and read those so I suggest that 10 minutes is a good starting point for the opening submission so if I can hand over to the police and their representatives now. Good evening everyone, my name is Alan Bay, I'm one of the police licensing officers representing the Vectra Point and Police. You'll have to forgive me as this is my first summary review. I'm standing in for PC Dave Watson who is away on annual leave. Forgive me for not knowing the order of how this takes place but is it a case of me just presenting Dave's case from his statement? Yes, although bearing in mind obviously that we we've read it and we had the interim hearing so you know any key points and if you could summarise what you're asking the committee to agree subject to our discussions tonight and that would be a useful place to kind of end it. Yep, sure in that case here I'll take the points from PC Watson's statement is that in support of the summary summary review for the premises that is in question which is Acquam the application was made following an allegation of serious sexual assault that occurred in the early hours of the 29th of March 2025 where it was alleged that patrons of the premises were a victim of serious assault and that the suspect of this offence was a member of staff and over the course of several months various meetings have taken place in interventions with Terry I believe and that some steps were put in place but it was the NPS that were not satisfied that these steps had not been adhered to interim steps or conditions had been put in place that all door supervisors were SIA accredited contractor that Mr Georgiou his son Harry and Mr Francis shall have no contact with patrons at the premises whilst licensing activities are taking place no free alcoholic drinks or shots shall be offered to any patrons at any patrons at the premises and no staff employed by the premises shall sexually proposition any patrons nor engage in sexual touch of any patrons of premises for any patron at the premises and this is all this has all come about as these various offences have taken place since the 10th of August last year through to further offences taking place the 29th of March or another serious allegation of sexual assault was taking place from PC Watson's engagement with the premises PC Watson's summary is that he's worked with the current management structure over many years and that PC Watson believes that an agreement has come into place that the interim steps would now be substantial would now become into force and that the police would be happy that those would be the steps to take it. Thank you Mr Bayes. Is that your submission? Perfect. Just before I open to committee just to clarify that as we understand it, although the appendix C of the papers reflect the conditions that we were asked to impose in the interim hearing, we in fact as the Minutes and the Notes of that meeting demonstrate kind of impose some slightly wider conditions with agreement of all parties and those are the ones that we're assuming that we're being asked to impose or consider here tonight. I think the addition was in effect to ensure that unlicensed areas of the premises remain off limits to patrons and that sense that which kind of the back room the office was being used you know to put it very mildly to entertain that was something that should not have happened I think everyone agreed and we therefore imposed a condition on that front. Mr Warren you've got your hand up. It's just. I yeah I'm the licensing sergeant for Lambeth um yep uh Alan is uh presented our case well um just that I would like to just add that we've met with Marcus Lavelle who's the solicitor for the premises and also the uh the um the PLH and the current uh the DPS has was and the current DPS um we're in agreement that the uh interim steps that have been imposed are sufficient to um allow us venue to continue to open and trade um and that's what we will be agreeing with um and proposing to the committee um so that's the NPS case as I understand it. Thank you and so just to clarify on the point I was making that that would include all conditions that we agreed at the interim hearing. Yes. Is that right from from okay um Mr Lavelle I see you've got your hand up obviously I'm going to come to you quite shortly but is this on a relevant point at this stage? I think you're on mute Mr Lavelle. Sorry I said lower my hand but not on mute so I'm sure everyone was glad um so uh and you raised that issue of the wider conditions um and uh I recall that there was discussion of wider conditions and there seemed to be an indication from the uh members they wanted those in but in the in the decision notice I've got and I think that's where the officer was taking these from the decision notice doesn't actually have that extra condition in it it does relate it does refer to the staff code of conduct and the staff code of conduct does state members of staff are not to be in the company of a guest or customer except in an area open to the public within the club um but that further specific wording didn't make its way from the look of this into the decision although as you say sir all parties are in agreement um and that's how it's been operated successfully in the interim period um but yes I think you also may have just been taking it from the decision I don't think it's made it through unless I'm misreading the decision I'm happy to be corrected there okay well well I mean John Mark maybe you want to say but I I guess in a sense we don't necessarily need an inquest into anything in terms of the decision notice unless it's unless it's can be contested but if we're all agreed that that condition should be considered for our decision tonight and will be in the decision notice if we agree it um then I think we're fine John Mark I think the the only point to be made was as far as I understood it it was apparent that what Marcus Lavelle has already mentioned it's actually a condition that the staff code of conduct which includes that specific provision must be filed and operated by the venue though it seems to me that if everyone is in agreement that what you would do is just strip that condition sorry that um bit of the staff code of conduct and place it on the face of the whatever ends up as um you know part of the conditions on our license assuming of course that's the um decision that the committee decides to make there's no issue with that at all and I think from memory part of our um part of our discussion last time was also that the the new security company would be able to understand that and therefore enforce it as part of their um program as well but that that goes to wider points of the code of conduct okay I think we're fine um councillors are there questions that you have for uh Mr Bay or Mr Warren from the police yes yeah I have a question if that's okay I guess um given sort of the serious nature of what's happened here I I just sort of want to get some clarity on why you're not seeking a withdrawal of the license we've had a representation from a resident who is calling for full suspension it'd just be good to get your view on on why you think the conditions that have been proposed go far enough yes I can answer that from the NPS point of view thank you um we've we've met with the uh venue um we understand that the the business plan is changing um that the culture of the management of the premises is is is what the NPS had concerns with um and that the the the crimes seem to have just been allowed to have happened in the premises and that's why um the change of management that the um not allowing the um Terry and Harry to be part of that uh management does go far enough for us to have confidence that that that venue can run safely um and we've yeah we've had reassurances that they're going to change the the the style of um the premises um and yeah that that for us is um enough enough to allow that premises to stay open in our eyes and can I can I just ask what the change in the um premises sort of operating business practices will be that sort of give you confidence yeah so um there was talk about the change of um the the music type that would be in there the um how they would run the business um from offering free drinks um a a change in in the the ethos of the premises as such um it's it's it's reassured us mark meeting with the the management there that that is a key fundamental change that they need to make um and yeah along with the uh the continued education um of uh wave training and ask angela that's going to now be at the ethos of making sure ensuring that women and girls women are safe at the venue did you have any questions yeah i do um uh yeah so obviously since steve was having met on i think it was a 10th or was the 14th of april um can't remember exact date but um obviously the interim steps have been in place since then um do you have anything to say about i mean have that have you been have you been monitoring whether those interim steps have actually been put in place over obviously it's a short amount of time of three or four weeks but have you been monitoring whether they've been put in place and if so um whether they've been put in place successfully no certainly and that that was something when we met with the uh the venue and um legal representation is that um we appreciate it is a very short term um but we have visited the premises we have we have interrogated um how they're operating um and it is something we will always continue to do but um in in the short term um we believe that you know we've we've had no other cause of concern um i mean you mentioned or whoever did the report mentioned in point 18 um um the interim steps currently in place are agreeing to satisfy the concerns of the mps for the premises to continue to operate in this period the premises have operated with only one instant taking place um what instant was that so um there was a altercation inside the premises which the security dealt with um um very efficiently and um with the help with um police who were on patrol um we felt it was it was dealt with appropriately and that that they would you know it wasn't the fault of the venue as such it was actually just dealt with as an incident wasn't involving staff members no okay um i see you met with them on there was it 29th of april and that was when you were sort of um kind of had an update on the implementation of your interim measures yes um so just to be clear what have you viewed has having changed since um the pre-hearing just so the main point by point on the interim measures just to sort of make sure we're on the same page yep so the management the premises has obviously changed um the free drinks are now no longer being offered um they've changed the security at the premises that's um seems to be working fine um they are now engaged in the change of the education system um of the staff um and at um and on our visit i believe it was on 2nd of may pc watson attended um i can read the visit was conducted um he spoke to the new dps who remains in post for some time uh dps is completely new and the premises has no previous dealings with the previous and has proved no previous dealings with the management um cv's been sent through it's an extensive experience of the industry and he spoke well and demonstrated good knowledge um he's been advised to use pc watson as a contact for the mps um although the venue is very quiet there was no sign of um the previous management inside the premises and they believed it was working well okay so the management changed no free drinks um change of the education system for staff and a new gps in place yes yeah and that was was that all observed or was any of that taken on the word of the licensee um that was observed uh by the officer who attended yes okay thank you okay thank you um just kind of one detail i picked up in the licensee submission that we received and it's a detail but it just i'm interested to to understand it and how it might play out in these changes um the the previous licensee as it were um implied that they hadn't understood the request fully around shots and free drinks um i'm just looking um uh i you know i i thought it was me giving it away rather than the drinks themselves i think we also heard in the interim hearing that these drinks were either not alcoholic or almost not alcoholic you know it but it obviously was still about a culture of of you know free drinks more generally um that that kind of um and obviously this is something that was in the interim in conditions we're asked to kind of consider again but obviously i am concerned a bit about this kind of lack of clarity or misunderstanding is that something that you think is entirely solved by the changing of the management or is there something i mean are there actions for the police to be clearer or are there other actions in terms of ensuring that some of these expectations because there will be things that we don't condition tonight but that will come up as as you know issues in future and that issue of communication responsiveness understanding a positive relationship will that entirely be rectified by the change of personal on one side or is there a wider set of actions that need to be taken and i do believe actually we're quite clear in regards to that matter um with the free drinks um i think it was a little naive to have said that um that he he thought it was himself that's not allowed to give free drinks um we did have a good relation working relationship with the premises and we still continue to have a good working relationship with the premises um they have engaged with us all the way through um and it's and they've and and although that issue has had arisen um you know maybe it's a case of um putting a written um record of the uh of what we've agreed back so there's no ambiguity but um from my from my recollection of the um the meeting um we weren't ambiguous it was it was quite clear what we was getting at and um and it should and it shouldn't have happened okay thank you um councillor athmel um yeah um just sort of thinking from your response to councillor nye you were sort of putting a lot of stress on the fact that they had said that they're going to change the music in the type of venue as one of your reasons for having confidence that they should stay open i mean that's not sorry i guess i was leading to i mean that's not obviously one of the licensing conditions um i mean if that didn't happen because you know that's just something they've said not necessarily something they have to go through with would you still have confidence in that they should stay open um i mean for the type of music that they're playing is is not an issue for the mps to comment on um we we've got to be um mindful that um you know we're open to um all kinds of music and entertainment um what was clear is that they need they wanted to change the path that that venue was operating in and hopefully um they can comment on that further um but they did enough to convince us that we were you know they were going on a different path and that they wanted to ensure that um the venue was um more more friendly towards um um women women meeting into the premises and um ensuring that it's it's safe for people to be at councillor nye thank you yeah just to follow up on um councillor rathrell's um question that she just asked you if um i know that you you're not going to get into a debate about music like to totally understand that but if everything was to stay exactly the same would you still have confidence that i pulled the licensing objectives if everything else you know stayed as it was in terms of the operation obviously the culture is going to change um or it will be back before review but in terms of the operation are you happy with the operation staying as it was if if nothing else changes because as councillor rathmore says we can't condition that no i don't i appreciate that as well um i mean from our point of view it was always the culture of the management um that we had concerns with and and that had followed down to the staff that um led to the vulnerability of females in the premises so that had to change um and has to change um so that's where the mps sits with it um in regards to the premises um it is up to them how that how they run it um and we as the police can't dictate that um so that that would be my answer great i think then there are no further questions um to you mr warren and thanks to you mr bay for for your uh responses and in which case we'll come to mr lavelle to um respond above the licensees um i think we were well under 10 minutes but i'll i'll let you uh take up to 10 minutes and miss level thank you sir i'll hopefully be less than 10 minutes or so um very much because of the time and effort that the police had put in working with the premises over the past month um it's unusual to be able to approach a committee certainly under a section 53 a summary review where we're able to say that the premises and the police are um as one on the proposed way forward um it's a unique experience for me and one i'm enjoying um but as you can see there's more to it than just that um and the members have picked up on this if i could first take this in two parts deal with those changes that have happened and why they have happened then i'll move into that issue about changing the nature of the music brand and so on as a as a second issue if i can first things first as it stands uh the investigation is still ongoing into what actually happened in the closed off section as it stands we have an allegation of serious sexual assault that's being investigated by the police what is agreed by everybody as we discussed at the interim steps hearing is the there is absolutely a failure the moment a member of staff rather than seeing himself as a protector of those people in their custody in the premises actually sees it as simply an extension of any other place they might go out in um and then takes uh or invites a customer into an area where all the safeguards of the club aren't there is no cctv there's no security presence um that's an absolute failing and that needs to be addressed that was addressed in the steps that this panel imposed upon the request of the police and the uh license holder we had discussed those prior to even attending the interim steps hearing why would they be effective the first step the very first step is to change the dps um the dps is here um but given time i will simply identify the dps who's stood in who's located by the premises has over 20 years in hospitality working from shoreditch to the west end um and down here now to lambeth um they've occupied roles in management including being the welfare team manager at tiger tiger london so that's 20 years of licensed hospitality management a focused view on welfare and now we find them here dealing with a new regime an entirely new staff code of conduct the interim steps that you've seen governing staff behavior um those interim steps now being endorsed by way of condition so any of these issues of ambiguity um it it's taken out of play any personalities who've been involved in this previously where there's been poor communication poor passing on of police requirements down to staff instead you've got direct contact with an independent effectively dps yes he works at the club but he's worked all over the country and can work anywhere um luckily he chooses to work here this is not somebody who is a family member who's invested in the long-term side of the business for their own needs but rather the longevity of the business to ensure that it continues to be a successful environment that attracts customers and is able to trade that's what protects their job um we've also noted things such as there's a there's a there's a direct step that there's not to be no free shots um as you noticed uh the the free shots were somewhat weak um and were a promotional item but they promote the wrong type of activity um the moment drinks and the handing out of drinks is seen as some way to interact it with with customers it doesn't appear to get the right results in terms of responsibility it also attracts clientele who are probably looking for a i'd say a more affordable night focused on drinking and so if we look at the steps that we've put in place so far those steps are geared to ensure that we don't end up with members of staff abusing their position to take anybody into an unsecured location that's what this review was brought for that's what the interim steps succeeded but now just moving on to my second point sir you have heard that the police are very encouraged by the idea there would be a change in the nature of the music played and the clientele recorded uh clientele attracted and to that end i would commend the representation that you've seen from a local resident sir that representation the only reference it makes specifically to akum is this incident um and it states that there's been an alleged they say alleged rape as i understand it was alleged serious sexual assault that is indeed a failing we identified in terms of somebody accessing an area they shouldn't be in but there is no evidence as it stands that that's taking place that's for the police to determine the rest of this representation makes it very clear that it's a challenging environment on clapham high street the resident seems to want the alcohol licenses for every uh premises on the high street pulled back to 11 because the high street appears to be very very difficult to to control that's clearly going to be something that's difficult for the police it's something that's difficult for local residents to live with but there's nothing in here that states akum well it's effectively attributed to all premises existing that's why there's violence on the street there's nothing here that identifies how akam is failing and that's resulting in violence on the street the police themselves have not brought this review due to akum failing and resulting in violence on the street um there was indeed an incident in the premises you've heard from the police that that was actually dealt with well but why does a rebranding help at this time it's the perfect time we've got a change in management we know it's challenging out on the street it is a perfect time to alter what's going on in the premises and simply attract a better quality of clientele who are not focused on free drinks doesn't matter whether they're weak or strong that would go to responsible retail of alcohol but in terms of the crowd you're going to pull in if it's one based on receiving free shots for a drink fueled night it's very different from those who know they're coming in to pay for a night a night they're choosing to pay for um it sounds like a small change but it's exactly the sort of change that the police know can have an impact so although this review wasn't brought for reasons of crime and disorder in that way it is the perfect opportunity for the premises to relaunch rebrand and change the narrative not only for their club to ensure that what's going on out on the street doesn't make its way into the club but ideally has a knock-on effect on the street but the high street isn't a place where you can come looking for free shots and a lower end night out so so that's how those two things reach together um if i can just use the last few moments of of what i'm saying because we'll deal with the rest of seeing questions i'm sure the members may have questions um there was a question about whether the training uh is that something the police simply taking um as a statement from the operator or is it um in fact something that can be evidenced uh the the training system is evidenced uh the trainer is here that's michael watson um rather than simple ad hoc training as as proved to given by the police and the premises is grateful for that there is now a training regime that will require all staff trained on induction plus refresher training as you move through that can actually be tracked on the online training system that's used to ensure the refresher training kicks in and the people don't start their shifts until they've received their induction training and that training being that there's of course basic health and safety and other things in there but the key issues are um vogue training wave training drink spiking awareness training that also helps to establish with all of members of staff including this new staff code of conduct that has been signed by each and every member of staff it helps to set a new expectation in and amongst staff members and in and amongst management on site as to how the premises should be operated and gives you a tangible item that you can actually work against to see if people are achieving those goals but i'll try and wrap it up there and we'll deal with everything else um in questions um thank you mr bell um i'm grateful that you brought in the appendix d the representation from the member of the public because i was going to do so um there was a lot that i very much welcome in your statement in terms of addressing this culture that it comes across um from the representations that staff effectively using um the venue at its most charitable um as a place to hook up and meet up and you know a kind of a social venue for their own purposes um but i am concerned by the suggestion that and i recognize maybe wider concerns about clapham high street and the changing the culture of the venue but what we're talking about here is the safety of of women young women in attending this venue and even um those attending for a cheap night out with free booze um deserve and demand to be safe when when they do even even people who've had too much to drink um it should not be the victims of the allegations that we've heard here and i suppose my question because you you you your statement reflected that there's nothing there but um obviously there is this statement that um please have a look at some of the comments left by clapham residents on this post about the awful crimes happening at aquam i i i haven't clicked or investigated those um they're not in front of us but that is clearly the reputation of aquam not the rep um and referencing what the wider community say about aquam beyond the issues of the high street um so i guess my question and maybe there's more to respond in there than this but but this reputation this rebrand this reputational change the public need to see this change too not just us and the police and it's not about changing the music or changing the music or changing the brand it is about a visible assurance that women attending aquam will be safe so how will how will that be that reassurance be there for members of the public like um the rep the person who made the representation so if i could just take that in parts effectively um the reason i wanted to deal with those as i say in two sections um it's because they are i would suggest quite different this idea of whether or not changing the nature of the premises so you're not giving away free drinks actually changes the nature of the clientele that doesn't go to the safety of women girls as you say any vulnerable person or any person who's capable of becoming vulnerable as their state may change throughout the time of their visit um they deserve to be safe that's why i say we need to look at those two items in a way separately the steps that have been put in place are those steps that are designed to ensure safety within the premises the issue involving the change in the marketing for the premises so as to attract a different clientele that goes to the issue of altercations that happen out on the street or otherwise or the very nature of the premises there is no suggestion that um a rebrand makes the area inside safer for women and children that's down to management management controls and training um in terms of how that moves forward um we we have in place the um angela system by way of example that is indicated through um signage in the premises it also links in with um the the london-based campaign there's actually been an ask for angela request in the premises that was then actioned by staff so that's the the way in which active issues have have become um something that's that's marketed if you will to uh members of the public um i would i would caution the members against giving weight to um a press cutting that then invited people to say whether they did or didn't like a premises that the press cutting claims a sexual assault took place in um as anyone's free to make comments on those articles including competitors um as it stands the experts on crime disorder and the guardians of public safety when it comes to crime disorder are the police and they haven't identified that there's a significant crime disorder issue in outcome but what they have done is as i say well again i'm happy for uh you know sergeant richard warrens here um they haven't identified the premises as a source of significant crime disorder what they saw was this particular incident whereby there could indeed be serious crime and disorder by way of a serious sexual assault and they wanted to see steps in place to ensure that that sort of thing couldn't happen again that's why i want to separate those two issues sir um as i say in terms of where this becomes something that changes does it an overlap where the entire premises becomes safer by way of the management changes you've seen um one of the issues that you'll uh you'll see i mentioned three types of training and one of those was wave and the e at the end of wave is engagement and the training that staff go through which includes remember specific training for managers is the idea that safety and welfare is an active responsibility so look at something like ask for angela that's a reactive step it's designed so that if somebody wishes to obtain help or aid they ask for angela and then it's very easy to identify someone needs help you can deploy your door supervisors other staff welfare officers and so on but the engagement side of your training is that you're not just waiting for someone to come to you and say i need help everybody has an active role and they are trained on this to ensure they are looking for those who might need help you should be looking for let's even look at this trigger incident a rogue member of staff you should be actively looking to see why is that member of staff with a customer why are they moving with a customer you should be moving to intercept and checking can i just see what's going on here why um is the group of three females and i notice one of them is having to be supported by the other two it's not enough to think if there's a problem there i'm sure they'll come to me rather you will engage can i just check everybody's okay can i just you know just check everybody's you know not having to slow their speech excessively or two of you are trying to encourage one of you to carry on your night um why have i got a male talking to a female and that female's looking even remotely uncomfortable it's just a chance to engage she might be uncomfortable for all kinds of reasons but by actively engaging you get to take a a a far more active role and understand that duty of being a custodian rather than simply as you said sir that's someone who's using the premises as a yet another place to socialize where you happen to be getting paid um so i'm hoping that explains a little of why there's a change not just in we can all talk about changing nature and culture but it's that change in things such as effective training on the appropriate principles because best practice is the effective practice and keeping it nightclub safe okay thank you captain i yeah i just um on the ask angela request was that during this intermediate period that that happened that wasn't closing me oh that wasn't that was actually um earlier in the year i use i use it as an example that those are the sorts of things that actually have an active you know that they they work if people are aware of them because that one's a reactive matter and people were aware of it in the club and we've mainstained that same thing it's just we've brought in active steps thank you um um so i just wanted to clarify you i think you you mentioned wave training i wasn't sure what that was um that's uh i will get i always get my acronym wrong for wave um welfare and vulnerability engagement i think is the correct one um bear with me okay yes welfare and vulnerability that's correct i'm always concerned that i should be going for something else um again for something else um again the concept there is looking with a welfare mindset um one of the things i uh specifically work on and working on um in the west end uh with an initiative governing the behavior of promoters um is the idea that you're you're always looking with a an active welfare mindset so you don't wait for someone to come to you and identify themselves as vulnerable vulnerable you are looking as i say um uh there might be more news on that as i say as we develop certain things in the west end and hopefully bring it elsewhere um i hope that's helpful so all staff new and existing since the um interim hearing um have had wave training and ask angel training is that right that's correct madam and um that's that that also includes a bit as i understand it a drink spiking awareness training as well okay um and have they also um uh been because it wasn't mentioned with the because the code of conduct they also um been aware of made aware of the code of conduct um in the in the preceding few three or four weeks as well um that code of conduct was rolled out to all members of staff who have um you'll notice on the code it requires signature at the bottom every member of staff has signed into the bottom of a copy of the code of conduct that is then retained on their file in the club has that been observed by the police it's said yeah um i see sergeant warren's hand up um what just um if you let me know what you're going to talk about yeah no no just um i know i know it's not normal but um i would um we are willing to give the actual committee and all members and future members um training on wave and ask angela so in the future you understand the training that the premises are going to receive and what what's the expectations that we hold um so that and we're willing to go and give you that okay that's great um and you've sorry just is that okay um so was the question can you repeat the question again is it something about yeah just just just that you've observed that because it was i think it's quite a key part of the um the whole thing really because you know one of the big things was that the staff member took um the uh young woman to um uh an area without ccd you know not an open public area of the um club and that you know that's not covered in the any of the sort of um you know the that's only covered in the code of conduct so it's kind of a key part that that doesn't happen again so i think it's quite key to that you've observed that um that every member of staff has is aware of and assigned that code of conduct and that's what marcus said and i just wanted to check that you'd observed that as well i haven't we haven't seen that document yet but um i'm sure that they would provide that to us if they could that'd be good yes um council night sorry i'll come to you and then mr lavelle i'll come back to you oh i think you're on me to get them did uh mr lavelle want to come back on something that's just been said because it might be easier to jump in there you're on mute as well sorry oh it's the tail of the modern era um uh we we we can we can scan in all those codes of conduct with the signatures at the bottom if you want i mean i don't necessarily need to see them but i need to be i think we need obviously martin's a chair but i think we'd need to be ensured that the police had seen them i think and so if that's if the police agree that that's a reasonable thing to happen yes i mean we yeah we can we can see that it's not a problem yeah cool i'm gonna go ahead yeah so um this is for mr lavelle um it's already been mentioned that the dps has been changed i just want to make sure i've completely understood it he's had no relationship with the previous dps or any of the people at the venue he's a completely new entity is that right have i understood that correctly he's he's not related to them i don't know if i don't think he's worked at the place but i can find out um but the the issue as that was brought to us by the police um the uh owner operator of the premises was also the dps his son was also one of the senior managers yeah and so in terms of changing the dps they didn't want it to for example move to a son or similar um or one of these um bear with me and i will give you an exact answer okay and can i can i ask you another question oh oh he's gone no sorry i know you want it completely no i am sorry in terms of the family members are they still involved in the day-to-day running of the business are they still on the premises on a regular basis is the other thing that i'd like to know so maybe it's you can take this space at once i can answer that one down quickly they they work from the management suite they start to own and operate the business uh so they work from the management suite the police request was that they didn't have a customer facing role um which is why they weren't anywhere within the the club itself when the police attended um but they still have to do things such as you know drinks orders security checks they will also deal with security compliance matters and things like that um but they'll do those without uh rubbing shoulders with customers okay just uh bear with me i'll get you an answer on the other issue okay thank you very much apologies if we were in the real world i'd of course just like lean back and do this but um i'm happy to do it virtually behind the scenes um one thing i would note just whilst we i wait for that specific answer to come in um i would note the police have expressed concerns and the premises been keen to embrace those concerns and to ensure they can address police concerns i would note that um the uh the owner operator terry who's on um his son who i think is actually sat with him at the moment um uh he he wasn't involved in this incident at all he was connected with another incident that had happened that was not found to have been any form of criminal activity but the police did not approve of the practice of effectively meeting with any persons um in the club outside of club hours and they felt that it set a bad standard for the staff now the operator has been happy to agree with the police to these conditions to move on and change that attitude but i would just like for the record for it to be clear um there was there was there was found to be no wrongdoing on the part of the operator's son um and i'm i'm keen not to sort of try an innocent man um in another forum um but in terms of the sort of the indication and ethos towards management controls um absolutely that's what's being agreed between the operator and the police and you see us presenting that to you uh jointly um okay uh okay i i also have an answer um that the dps uh the dps has never worked for the organization although um he has worked as a promoter um in the uh lambeth area um and held a couple of events in the premises previously uh however uh those events clearly have not flagged any issues with the police uh because the police uh have to effectively approve any dps application they are the only people who can lodge an application to them um and it was the dps that um i know dave's not here it was the dps that dave met with when he visited the site um he appears to have been content with their discussions yep that's that makes it take sense thank you just to follow up and maybe just to clarify our thinking here um and bearing in mind they at the the new dps isn't here as you say but obviously it is a tricky oh he is the new dps is here sorry sir he's here yes i i think it would be maybe useful to hear just it is a tricky um thing to to navigate where the owners are still the owners but the dps has changed and how um as a firm and strong dps maybe it'd be useful to have reassurance direct from from him um in terms of enforcing these conditions even when it's people the ownership team who might be um you know seeking exception shall we say uh certainly sir um uh let's just see if we can pass the technological barrier omar are you able to see and hear us there we go um hi councillor hello chair how are we thanks for having me thank you emma i mean i don't know if you caught the gist of what i was suggesting but but just i think it'd be useful for the committee to hear kind of maybe you're very briefly your approach to enforcing the conditions and any conditions that we we agree tonight um even when it relates to members of the ownership team um well my experience and my style of management is obviously going to be different from uh the the the owners and the xdps because we all come from different backgrounds um implementing what is has been uh asked by the police uh with that will be implemented and is being implemented and i also want to mention that it's not going to be a drink-led culture venue i believe in in the current generation is more looking for an experience you know music-led as opposed to drink-led and the backgrounds that i've had the background with the venues that i've had work at you know um they're high energy environments intoxication things can unravel that needs to be kept the lid on we need to control drinking we need to and the way i my operational style is very hands-on lots of engagement looking questioning on the floor discussing with all team members from bar staff barbacks to toilet attendance constant communication that oh these group of girls here that girl there where are her friends is she okay okay she's doing all right these group of lads lads it it all has to do with micromanagement to get the team on board and to create the new culture going forward which is uh you know it's all about aesthetics social media experience and creating a safe environment for women lgbt uh customers and just on the end oh and making making aquam a place that's known to be safe to go to and to have a good time for everybody great that's that's very helpful thank you um just hold on i can see hands come up and so um uh i like cancer rathmore um sorry i forgot what i was gonna say um oh yeah no i've remembered sorry um yeah so um so just to clarify in terms of new management is it just you omar or is there other sort of staff that have been brought in to um affect change in the organization uh it's yeah it's it's management wise it's me but there's also a new security team that have come in so i am working closely with the head head of security as well as just having constant conversations of the kind of venue we want to have who can come here who who who how we're going to allow these people to enjoy their night and then leave uh and get home safely and just to be 100 clear i just mr lavel's got his hand up i'll just let him come in i thought i'd put my hand up twice but i think i'm actually number two in the queue so sorry i've been confused by my own my own hand um only from a technical point of view um one of the requirements was that there's um uh a door supervision company you've heard omar refer to um that's an acs approved contractor um if i may pray in aid to that fact um large doors provision companies you have to be quite large because it's like an iso 9000 management qualification for you to be acs accredited um uh the approved um contractor scheme acs um for you to achieve those you have to be relatively large and holding it has value you can charge a bit more for your services you could come in to situations like this as a as you know with a with a quality mark on you um the reason we'd like to put that forward is it identifies that there's something over the door security company rather than the desperate need to keep this one door it's not that they're you know they'll do anything they can to keep this door and listen to the owner and maybe let standards slip rather they'll work with the premises but they need to protect their own reputation they must protect their own accreditation and so it gives you effectively an extra check mark over the standards that are being maintained in the premises so sorry to derail anymore there but i thought i'd get that in why there's the the new team and why they are accredited and by that you mean the as on the conditions the um security industries authorities accredited approved contracted scheme is that right just to double check sorry i lost my name yes yes the the the the approved in the approved contractor scheme that's that's put in place by the si a company excuse me um cats and i thank you i just wanted to ask um obviously we've heard from omar about um his experience and and how he sees it going in a more experiential direction i just wondered if there are any plans to rebrand in terms of a new name for the venue a kind of a new look for the venue that's not completely cleared to me that would be interesting to know that is being discussed um i also have experience in launching venues and brands too so regardless if there is a brand change or not these changes are going to take place the culture is going to change it's going to become it's good there's always room for improvement what i've seen that needs improving it's going to happen and i'm going to it's a personal mission of mine as well i i've been working in venues long enough i want to feel safe in a place that i work in and i want i want everyone else to feel safe and it's also my reputation i've always worked for venues that are exciting or have some sort of aesthetic involved and i want i want aquam or whatever the rebranding may be i want these changes to be made and just to create a nicer better venue from what what it could be it could be a lot better okay um thank you for that and great to meet you as well emma thank you um i just want to acknowledge the representation that we've had from a member of the public but i believe and kira i'm just um obviously but we're not joined by the resident tonight um i think we've addressed some of those you know things that came up um as they've been speaking to um the the applicant and the licensee um but is there anything that we just need to reference in terms of that representation from anyone mr levelle apologies sir um i'm only bringing this in um it's not on the i'll bring my hand down as well um it's not it's not on the matter you're raising it's on the one just before um we've we if if it's absolutely required by way of condition we would rather deal with something organically if we're looking at a rebrand however if absolutely necessary and the members would require it um we could agree to a change of name by way of condition being imposed on the license to change it from outcome but that does take time so you could be looking at say three months you've got to work in a new publicity campaign and so on that's the very thing that's being picked around and worked out as we speak uh it can be done by condition um if absolutely necessary it can be done with some time i simply put it forward because it is of course open to the members um i think that the discussion that we've been having tonight is we understand the wider concerns are raised by the representative of the public and and how these other issues play and i think it's been very useful to help from a mob but i think that our conditions led by the applicant are taking some place that is really about ensuring safety for whoever it is that comes into that venue um and maybe this um you know if if if you come back to us because um the police seek further review um we may be drilling into some of those wider issues but i think the scope of tonight kind of um we've heard that and it's useful to understand it but i think unless other members of the committee think differently but i don't think we need to explore that as a potential condition um no um but it's it's useful to hear the thinking there sorry mr well uh sorry to interrupt yet again sir i i now have the scanned in signed codes of conduct if you would like those um i can display them on the screen or we can forward them to the police um i look to sergeant warren um as the applicant in terms of um it if you're happy to just if you like have them on file uh the code of conduct particularly for us in the interim hearing related to you drawing out from the code of conduct the particular areas that we were concerned by but sergeant warren do you have any any no i'm i'm i'm happy they'll be received by me and uh and we'll go from that okay and and just to seek clarification that they that they retain those kind of areas that we um that we've discussed tonight and that we were concerned about the interim hearing yes okay in which case um are there any further questions from members of the committee are you happy to retire and make a decision okay in which case we'll we'll go there we maybe sometimes just because we we draft um the decision so regardless of how quickly we make the decisions sometimes the drafting take some time so do bear with us and but we will be back hopefully shortly thank you thank you members thank you officers thank you hi everyone kyra is everyone back in the room yes great i have taken off my headphones so just before i start is everyone able to hear me okay uh yes sir i can hear you good that was uh that was content um okay everyone is here so thank you for bearing with us while we just um write up and obviously um full information will follow but the the committee carefully considered the evidence had been put before it and had regards to the summary review provisions within the 2003 act and the london borough of lambas statement of licensing in reaching its determination the subcommittee also had regards the public sector of quality duty and the lsc was advised that both police and the operator had reached a consensus about the approach the subcommittee should take and that the lsc should seek to make permanent the steps that had been imposed as interim steps which i will just briefly remind that the dps to be removed and following interim conditions that door supervisors um employed by a firm on the accredited approved contractor scheme that the um mr george who and others should have no contract with patrons whilst activities are taking place no free alcoholic drinks or shots should be offered to patrons um no staff employed by the premises shall sexually proposition any patron nor engage in any sexual touching with a patron at the premises with um explanatory text and the premises to file and operate a code of conduct the osc ultimately considered that doing these um was both re reimposing these as permanent conditions was both appropriate and proportionate um additional conditions we it proposed throughout were as follows to amend the staff code of conduct condition so that it reads the premises are to file and operate a staff code of conduct copies of that document shall be sent to both the police and lambeth licensing service within within one week of today's hearing um on the 7th of may in that and should that document be amended in feature a copy of that amended code of conduct shall be then supplied to those authorities for their records and in addition we have agreed determined to impose the following the members of staff are not to be in the company of a guest or customer except in areas of the club open to the public and used for licensable activities on those premises for avoidance of doubt that's just copied from um point one of the um code of conduct the lse has considered all the evidence presented to it was ultimately satisfied that the above modifications the license appropriately and proportionately address the items arising from this review we do welcome the commitment of the new dps to uphold these conditions and to ensure the venue's future culture offer and brand meet the high standards the public expects any party may bring an appeal of this decision within 21 days of that decision being published um i now just need to decide on the interim steps that we made last time as part of this process and i invite the parties make submissions on these very briefly and i recognize the proposed permanent steps are largely mirror mirroring those interim steps i do need to hear thoughts on the right way forward in terms of those interim steps so um so uh sergeant warren and on behalf of the applicants or pc babe and just in terms of your view of the interim steps and how we take this forward um i believe that yeah if they're going to become conditions then you keep them in place until rest completed thank you mr laval the standard procedure turn the decision into the interim steps isn't so um given it's 10 to 9 i have nothing else to say thank you um are the committee um happy to agree those interim steps um alongside those agreed agreed brilliant okay thank you very much for that um full information will follow as you'd expect um and thank you everyone for your participation tonight in the meeting thank you everyone thank you very much thank you officers thanks everyone it's okay bye you