Transcript

Thank you, Chair. The meeting is now live. Thank you. Good evening, everybody. Welcome to the meeting of the Licensing Subcommittee, which is being held as a remote meeting. This meeting is being webcast, and please bear with us if there are any technical issues. My name is Councillor French, and I am chairing this meeting. I will now invite the other attendees to introduce themselves in the following order. Councillor, Councillors, Officers, Applicants, Representations. Apologies, Chair, one procedural matter which I omitted by accident, but just to confirm that Councillor French had nominated for the chair, can I just confirm for the record, Councillor Birchall and Davies, you're happy with that? Yes. Thank you. I'll pass back to you, Councillor French. Sorry for that. Thank you, Councillor Davies. Yes. Yes. Good evening, everybody. Councillor Birchall. Yeah. Good evening. I'm Councillor Birchall. Thank you. Over to you, officers. Guy Bishop, Legal Advisor to the Subcommittee. It's Caroline Sharkey, Chair. I'll be presenting the report to you. Thank you. And Michael Flowers, Democratic Services, and the clerk for the meeting. Thank you. Applicants? That's it. Good evening. My name is Leo Charolambides. I'm the barrister representing Shell, and I have with me today Donna Lockett, who is the licensing agent. Thank you. Thank you. And representations? Good evening. I'm Councillor Matthew Tiller, Councillor for Rayhampton, and I'm here to speak about the Shell application. Thank you, everybody. So, going on to our agenda, are there any apologies for absence or declarations of interest for any items on the agenda? If yes, please could you confirm the apology for absence slash declaration of interest? I will just confirm for the applicants and the representation that whilst councillors Davies and Birchall weren't listed as the expected attendees for the meeting, their attendance is allowed as members of the licensing committee, and they have both been able to read the papers in full prior to the meeting. Thank you for that clarification, Mr Flowers. Mr Chalambides, excuse my pronunciation. Not at all. Thank you. I'm sorry. There's probably a simple answer to this, but I'm not sure who or what role Councillor Tiller plays in this hearing, because I don't have a representation from him. Councillor, Mr Flowers, would you like to clarify the question? Yes. Yes, and I'll invite Councillor Tiller to correct me if I say anything incorrect, but Councillor Henderson had submitted the representation on behalf of the ward councillors. Councillor Tiller is attending tonight instead of Councillor Henderson as a representative of his representation, but he would be one of the three ward councillors who, the single representation was written, but he's attending on behalf of Councillor Henderson. But Councillor Tiller may want to confirm anything. Thank you, Mr Flowers, that's correct. Sir, would you like to have any further question there? Sorry, yes. Page 28 of the agenda, it is addressed to, it's signed by Councillor Graham Henderson. It's signed as Labour councillor in the singular for Roe Hampton, and it's signed Cabinet Member for Adult Care and Health and Community Safety. That's page 28, so it's in the singular. And on page 26, he opens with, I am the Cabinet Member. And then he continues with, all three Roe Hampton councillors are strongly opposed, as well as references to the Labour MP. But as far as we're aware, it's just the single councillor that's made representations. So if your legal advisor perhaps could confirm whether or not you've received notification in accordance with the hearing procedures that Councillor Tiller will be speaking as a representative, not as a local councillor, that will be helpful. In the meantime, ma'am, given that my instructing agent is listening to this, perhaps if she could message me on WhatsApp to let me know if she's been informed by the council that there is a representative, that would be very helpful. Thank you. Thank you for that question, Mr Bishop. You're muted, sir. School boy error, thank you. My understanding is Councillor Tiller is speaking to the representation at the instruction of the councillor. That is it. Thank you, Mr Bishop. I just want to ask, Mr, can you repeat your name? Because I don't want to keep saying it wrong. So I'm going to ask you just to repeat it. And I have a disability, so I usually have to see things phonetically, but I'd like to be able to get it correct. So, sir, please repeat for me. Thank you very much. I can type it phonetically, and I've had every version, so you're never going to get it wrong. But it's charalambides. Charalambides, okay. Yeah, it was written phonetically in the hospital. Whereas if you were Greek, it would be charalambides, which is completely different. So charalambides is fine. Charalambides. Thank you, sir. Thank you for your grace with that. Have you received any notification on WhatsApp from your colleague? No, we've not been informed. She's confirmed that. Yeah, I don't think we're going to take an objection, but I'm grateful for the clarity that Councillor Tiller is here speaking to his colleague's representation and not speaking on his own behalf. That's very helpful. Thank you very much. Thank you for... I don't think he could. Thank you. Mr Bishop? I was just saying he couldn't, because he hasn't got a rep. Okay. Well, there we are. So if we can proceed with matters. Yeah? Okay. So we have had apologies. We had an update on who was meant to attend. There are no declarations of interest to be recorded. No? Okay. Agenda item four. We will now consider the first application on the agenda, which is for a variation of a premises license in respect of the premises known as Shell Little Waitrose Rowhampton, 237 to 239 Rowhampton Lane. That's CRO Whiskey 154 Lima, Bravo. And I now invite the licensing manager, Ms Sharkey, to introduce the application. Thank you, Chair. I'm mindful that you've, the members and you, Chair, you've read the report. So I'll just give you a summary of the paper before you. As you've said, Chair, this is an application that's been submitted by Share All Products Limited. This is an application to vary its existing premises license. The applicant is seeking to update the internal layout of the premises as shown on the plan and also extend the hours for the sale of alcohol for consumption of the premises, 24 hours a day, Monday to Sunday, seven days a week. The applicant is also requesting to remove all the conditions under Annex 2 of the license and to replace them with more up-to-date conditions consistent with the operating schedule. This application was advertised as required by law. This resulted in the applicant agreeing additional conditions with the Met Police. And this was in relation to having two members of staff on duty between 11 p.m. and 5 a.m. each day and that all services will take place through the night hatch between 11 p.m. and 5 a.m. daily. The premises license order also agreed to require any third-party delivery partner delivering on behalf of the premises license order to ensure that they have all the checks in place in terms of if they're selling alcohol to use the Challenge 25 age verification. We also received five representations, chair and from councillors and an MP who have made a joint representation as discussed earlier. They've all raised concerns in relation to public nuisance and incidents of crime and disorder and increase in street drinking. No other representations were received from other responsible authorities. A copy of all the representations received have been forwarded to the applicant and are available to the subcommittee tonight. The applicant has also proposed measures to promote the licensing objectives as conditions if the licensing subcommittee were minded to grant the license. These are produced in appendix A of the report chair, which is on pages 8 to 9 of the agenda. The subcommittee may modify these proposed conditions if they consider such steps appropriate after hearing all the evidence tonight for promoting the licensing objectives. So the options available to the subcommittee tonight is either to grant the application as requested, modify some of the conditions or to reject the all part of the application. That is the application as I understand it, chair. I'm happy to answer any questions or any follow-up points of clarification with the application. Thank you. Thank you, Ms Sharkey. Does the subcommittee have any questions for the licensing manager? No, thank you. Thank you. Okay, moving on. Are there any other questions of clarification on anything that has been stated? As a reminder, both the applicant and representations will have a chance to address the subcommittee, and this should only be where you would like clarification on something that has been said by the licensing manager. Ma'am, there are two conditions that were agreed with the police that are missing from Schedule A and one condition that needs amendment. I don't know if you would like me to clarify that now or as part of my submission, whatever is easier for you and your colleagues. I feel now would be a good point, just so that it's spoken. It doesn't eat into your time, because if it was something that should have been included and is not, then I think it would be fair that you speak about it now as opposed to later. Thank you. So I've double-checked the correspondence between Donna Lockett and Emiko Simpson, and conditions 15 and 16 are missing. So condition 15 says all staff that undertake the sale or supply of alcohol, open brackets, and any other age-restricted product, close brackets, shall receive appropriate initial training, followed by refresher training in relation to undertaking appropriate age checks on such, at least every six months, full stop. So I don't think the training condition deals with that introductory training. And then condition 16 says records of all staff training relating to the sale or supply of alcohol, open brackets, and any other age-restricted product, close brackets, comma, along with any training material used, comma, will be kept and maintained by the designated premises supervisor or the premises license holder. So that's about the training material. I don't think those two are controversial and they're there. And then condition 9, firstly, as drafted in your agenda, a word is missing, but in fact the police wanted something more restrictive for that. So in the first part, your current condition says there will be two members of staff on duty between the hours of 2,300 hours and 500 hours each day. Then it would be comma, otherwise all services will take place through the night hatch. So the word otherwise is missing. However, the police came back to us and said we don't want the premises operating for access between 11 and 5, whether you have one member of staff or two, three, four or five. So that condition should actually read and has been agreed. All services will take place through the night hatch between 2,300 hours and 0,500 hours daily. So it's much more restrictive and we've agreed that. So if you're minded to grant the license and accept these conditions, everything from the word there today, comma, is struck out and all has a capital A and that has the effect of agreeing to the police restriction, which we've agreed to, which is that they don't want direct access by the public to the premises. Thank you for that additional information. Mr. Bishop, is anything to be stated at this point? I see you as making code. No, in deliberations. OK, thank you. OK, any other questions or points of clarification for Ms. Sharkey? No? OK, I will now invite the applicant to address the supplement committee and you'll have five minutes to speak, after which questions may be asked of you. Well, thank you very much. This is a variation application for an existing premises that's been operating in this area for 24-7 since 2011. There is no planning restriction on its hours of operation. And so in terms of amenity, which is far wider than the licensing objectives, your local authority is deemed as appropriate to be operating in that way. It's operated 24-7 much since that time, whether it's been Shell or Waitrose or now Shell again. Late night refreshment has been granted for this premises throughout the night and there is alcohol sales till midnight Sunday to Thursday and then until 2 a.m. on Friday and Saturday. As you can see, what we've done is provided you with an updated layout. We've sought to extend the alcohol sales and replace the Annex 2 conditions, which is to effectively modernise them and bring together a very robust set of conditions. In terms of the representations we've received, we're grateful for the cooperation we've had from the responsible authorities, particularly your police licensing officer, who's gone through the application with us. There's been extensive discussion and has requested various conditions, particularly around CCTV deliveries, staffing levels and so on, all of which we're happy to agree and reflect the ethos of Shell. In terms of the representations by civil society and your colleague in the local ward, you'll no doubt have noticed as licensing members that he refers to public safety and so on. As you and your colleagues know, public safety doesn't mean the safety of people in the surrounding area. It's about the safety of persons using premises. So that means the safety when they come on site. You can't get safer than a petrol station of this site. It's brightly lit. It's covered by CCTV, internal, external, and has very sophisticated systems in place. It's a premises at which age-restricted products, dangerous age-restricted products, are available to the public, fuel, cigarettes, solvents and so on, and it operates under a multitude of licences in order to achieve that. It seems odd, then, that there are representations that say, what about the security? What about, you know, antisocial behaviour after hours at this venue? Well, it can't just happen. If you're planning on engaging in antisocial behaviour, you're not going to come to a well-lit area which is covered by CCTV. As you and your legal advisor and licensing officer will confirm, a licensed premises can only really be held responsible for matters on its own premises. Beyond that, the Section 182 guidance tells us it's a matter of personal responsibility. The Section 182 guidance also tells us that licensing regime is not the answer to everything. It's just part of a holistic solution. So the question is, is this premises doing all it can to promote the licensing objectives? According to your police, the answer is yes. There's no other responsible authorities engaged. It seems odd that your colleagues are saying there are numerous complaints, that one resident has regularly reported fights. There have been no such concerns raised by the police. There's been no such concerns raised by environmental health. And I'm, in order to answer that, I'm reminded of the case of Thwaites, which tells us that, you know, civil society might, as a result of feeling overwhelmed by these applications, be affected by fears and so on, which might just be amplified, given their uncertainty in the regime. But, Ma'am, Lockett & Co have been operating as licensing agents for Shell for many years, and I've been acting for Shell for more years than I care to remember. And I know for a fact that we don't have any reviews. What tends to happen is, if there are any concerns, they directly contact the licensing consultants, they immediately engage, they seek to improve conditions, and they're very collaborative in their response. There is no record of any complaints on this site, either through Waitrose or Shell. So, I do commend this application to you and your colleague, Ma'am. And the conditions will address any and all of the concerns raised, as will our cooperation. Time out. Thank you very much. Oh, you're professional at this there. Thank you. I might have done it before. I think so. Do we have any questions now from the licensing committee? I invite you. Any questions from the councillors on the subcommittee? Councillor Birchall, thank you. Sorry, I was trying to get to my cursor up to my hand. Yes, I was just wondering, thank you for a very good presentation. I was just wondering, who do you expect to be buying alcohol between two and six in the morning? And how many sales do you expect? And what's the evidence that this extended hours is needed? Well, Ma'am, as you're aware, need and commercial considerations are not relevant. So I don't have those answers. And respectfully, even if I did, I wouldn't share them because they wouldn't be relevant to this hearing. I'm sure your legal advisor can take you to the relevant paragraph in the section 182 guidance. Thank you. Thank you. Any other questions? Sorry, just a minute. Mr. Bishop. Yeah, I mean, it doesn't mean you can't answer the question about who would be buying between two and six in the morning. Legitimate people about their business who want to get coming home from work, going out, having home deliveries. We don't profile our customers. It's a 24-hour convenience in much the same way that you can fill up your car any time throughout the night. Stop for a coffee. Stop for convenience. Alcohol is no more than such a convenience choice. Thank you for the response. Councillors, Councillor Davies. Yes, thank you. I mean, I had a similar question, actually. I've got two, if I may. One is, do you have any analysis about whether these are people, you know, commuting across London or their local customers? Just to give me an understanding of, you know, the nature of the business. And I suppose in relation to the Roehampton Council submission. But secondly, I just wondered what the reasons are for the layout, whether that's just to do with the latest best practice on marketing and, you know, maybe sort of thinking about the consumer, if that's related in some way to this application. Thank you. So, Mum, the layout changes, firstly, as a result of COVID, one of the ways in which these convenience stores were developed, they were found to be a very convenient source, particularly for third-party delivery services. So you're at home at 2, 3 in the morning and you've forgotten eggs, flour, milk, cigarettes, or indeed alcohol, then you're able to call in. And so somewhere like Little Waitrose or Tesco's Express or any local convenience store can provide that. So from the point of view of local authority and the police, these are quite attractive because, as I said, they're under lights, they're under CCTV, the sort of bikes aren't revving outside local community areas. So they're real hubs that we've found local authorities prefer. So because of that, the catchment for these types of sales tends to be fairly local, including walk-ups. Ever since COVID, as people have gotten lazier because you can now pay for your deliveries at home, there's less and less walk-ups at the night hatch and more and more delivery drivers. And similarly for local sales, I think it is a good question. What I do have to say is that if you come to a Shell convenience or a Shell Waitrose convenience, and I'm not sure I should be, well, I've said this many times in a public forum, the markup is really quite off-putting. So if you are one of these types that the councillors imagine and fear that you're going to be out on a night out, you've been on the lash, you want to continue, you're going to get cheap booze somewhere and then continue with antisocial behaviour in the local park, this type of store is really not the place for you. Because if you're drunk and you turn up at our counter, we will get a really clear image of you. We will recognise that. We will refuse your sales. And it's really expensive, given the markup. So that gives you an idea of the kind of customers and the demographics we have. It does vary from area to area, however. Thank you. I have just one question. It's more of a clarification, actually, because you had input the information with Ms Sharkey. So as of 11 o'clock at night, the doors are closed for the business and everything goes through the hatch. It doesn't matter if I'm buying bread, milk and cheese. You know, I've got a bit of a personal shopper between 11 p.m. and 5 a.m. in the morning, regardless of whether alcohol is. OK, I just wanted clarification on. And in fact, at this store, the operator has tended to operate his closed door policy from 10 until 6. So 10 p.m. until 6 a.m. So he doesn't open his door until newspapers and milk in the morning, effectively. And one final way, just kind of observations last question is about where this is located, because it's not far from an A road, isn't it, in terms of locality. So it's off the dual carriageway. Yeah, the dual carriageway, and then going up, like, onto quite a major... A3. A3. So just in terms of locality, I suppose there are local people that live there, but equally it is on a kind of prominent location in terms of people visiting that are not from the Roehampton slash Putney Wandsworth area. Yes, you'll either get local people on foot, delivery services, which are scattered around the locality anyway, whether they're dealing with late-night refreshments or convenience stores, or people driving and collecting their fuel and therefore also stocking up. It's not our experience that people travel from far and wide to come to a small convenience store in this way. It's not a destination venue in that way. It tends to have a relatively local catchment area. Thank you for that. Any other questions from the councillors for the applicant? Thank you. I'll just repeat my script because I didn't ask it in the correct way and I don't want to get told by Mr Flowers. Are there any other questions or clarification on anything that has been stated? As a reminder, the representations will have a chance to address the committee and this should be only where you'd like clarification on something stated by the speaker in this instance, the applicant. Okay, that seems like a resounding no. I cannot see any requests for questions or clarifications, so I will now invite those making representations to address the subcommittee and you will have five minutes to speak after which questions may be asked of you and I believe that this evening that's Councillor Tiller. Thank you, Chair. So, to forestall any further objections about you hearing from me rather than Councillor Henderson, I should say that, firstly, Councillor Henderson is out of the country unavoidably, so that's why I'm stepping in and, secondly, that Councillor Henderson, my colleague Councillor Yates and I have discussed this very thoroughly between ourselves and we are sitting in from the same hymn sheet, so what I'm saying here is of a piece with representation made by Councillor Henderson. So, what I'd like to say is that extending alcohol sales to 24 hours will likely increase late-night disturbances and criminal behaviour in an area that's already struggling with antisocial activity and street drinking. I speak from personal experience as well as being a Councillor since I'm a resident and I've actually brought past some antisocial behaviour on my way home here. I know we have a fair share of antisocial behaviour already connected to drug-taking and also to street drinking and it really doesn't need to be exacerbated by making alcohol any easier to obtain and, as we've already discussed, residents already report fights and criminal damage in nearby Wilhampton High Street and Midfield Street and on the point of doubt being thrown on the account of the resident who reported fights within the premises and I have to say that the argument that, you know, surely the police would know about it, well, no, the police don't know about every fight that happens and it's very disingenuous to imply that residents are either hallucinating or being dishonest when they report such fights and so I hope that that will be taken into account. So, selling alcohol around the clock at a petrol station undermines public safety and increases the risk of drunk driving and violent incidents. The proposed hours will lead to more street drinking, noise, litter and disturbing residents and degrading the local environment and what I don't believe has been mentioned so far is that it's very close to a school and also to a church, to a primary school, in fact. And so, allowing 24-hour alcohol sales near a school risks normalising irresponsible drinking and increases the chance of having underage access to alcohol and that's the end of my presentation. I'm willing to take questions. Thank you, Councillor Tiller. Does the subcommittee have any questions for those making representations this evening? No. Councillor Davies? No? Yes, Councillor Tiller, do you have a sort of view on the primary school and the people that go to the church in the primary school? It's like how, apart from walking by the premises, can you explain to me why they might be affected? Well, I mean, the primary school is nearby people, near to people who have visited these premises and purchased alcohol there. So, that has to be taken into account. Was there something about littering? I think in the... Littering is also a problem in the local area. Yes, and sadly, the primary school and church grounds aren't that well secured. We've got low walls. So, that is something to bear in mind. If people are obtaining alcohol late at night and want something to drink it, that's where they may go. Thank you. Any further questions from the subcommittee? Okay, thank you, Councillor Davies. Are there any other questions or clarification on anything that has been stated? Thank you. I can see no requests for questions of clarification. I will now invite each party to provide any closing remarks they would like to submit. This should be limited to a maximum of two minutes. I will first invite those making representations followed by the applicant to address the licensing committee. So, Councillor Tiller, would you have two minutes to say anything further? Thank you. Ah, right. Yes, I don't have a great deal to add to what I've just said. Except that to ask the committee to not approve this application. I mean, I can say in mitigation that I've been a customer of little waitrose myself I've got nothing against the establishment but I, for one, might well have if this goes ahead and so many other residents. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for that. And now I'm going to just reset my timer. over to you, applicant. Ma'am, thank you very much. Firstly, much has been said about age restricted, the impact on primary school children shall have an impeccable record in terms of age restricted and dealing with dangerous goods, fuel, solvents, cigarettes and alcohol with no issues. With respect to the local residents and Councillor Latilla, no responsible authorities have applied their expert mind to this and come up with any concerns. If they had the idea that people purchasing alcohol because they're near schools would have been seen for what it is, which is unhelpful because you would then go around closing down your supermarkets, your convenience stores and everything else that's cheek by jowl. the simple point is that there's an operating schedule here that hasn't been criticised, that has in fact been endorsed by the police, that's been improved with the police help, given that there are no criticisms of that operating schedule, there's no reason why this premises cannot operate in a way to support the licensing objectives, be an asset in the local area, and if in the unlikely event that that fails, it can be reviewed by your police and your responsible authorities. So given there's been no criticism of our operating schedule, I can do nothing but commend the application to you. Thank you very much. Thank you. This now concludes the first applications discussion at the public part of the meeting. After we've considered the second application, we will retire to a separate confidential meeting room to make the decision where only members of the licensing subcommittee, the democratic services officer and legal advisor will be present. The decisions, reasons and any legal guidance given during the subcommittee's discussion that has informed their decision will be confirmed in writing together with information about any rights of appeal within five working days. We thank you for your attendance and we will now proceed to the second application on the agenda tonight. Thank you, Mr. Shahalam Des. Thank you very much and have a good evening to you all. Thank you. Bye-bye. Thank you. Thank you. Good evening. To your colleagues as well. Thank you, Councillor Tiller. Thank you very much. And Donna Lockett. Thank you. Okay. I think we're just waiting. Sad Cheyenne, can you just say your name for me so I can pronounce it? It would be good for me to be able. That's the end, yeah. Oh, that's perfect. Oh, hello. Good evening. I can hear you. We can hear you. We can hear you. Thank you. Okay, thank you. Hold on one second, please. Okay. So I'll Oh, excuse me. All right. Great. Is it my time to represent the case? No, no, not your turn yet. Okay. Not your turn yet. One second. Not yet. Okay, great. Thanks. I just been out for a while. Thank you, too. One second. I'm just going to get my notes. Okay. Okay, so we've had the formal introductions of everybody here, but just for the record, in case you weren't here, we have Councillor Birchall, Councillor Davis and myself as part of the subcommittee and we're being guided this evening by Mr. Bishop, our legal advisor. We have Mr. Flowers, who's the Democratic Services Officer and Miss Sharkey, who is the licensing manager, just in case you weren't available. Mr. Flowers, is there anything that you need to say at this point? No, Chair, thank you very much. Okay, fabulous. Okay, we're going to proceed. We're now considered the second application on the agenda, which is for a new premises license for the Londys on 59 Battersea Bridge Road, London, and that's Sierra Whiskey 11, 3, Alpha Uniform. And I now invite the licensing manager to introduce the application. Thank you, Chair. Again, I'll just give you the brief outline of the application that you have before you. So, this is an application that's been submitted by Thad Cheyenne and it's for Londys on 59 Battersea Bridge. These premises are located in Battersea Park Road. This is a new business venture chair. However, the premises has previously held a premises license as a restaurant in 2017 and more recently has been trading as an estate agent. The applicant has applied for the sale of alcohol for consumption of the premises between 6 a.m. and 0 2 a.m. the following day, Sunday through to Saturday, and also for late night refreshments between 11 p.m. and 2 a.m. Sunday through to Saturday. The application was advertised as required and this resulted in the applicant agreeing several conditions with the Metropolitan Police. These are listed on page 40 of the agenda. The applicant also agreed some additional conditions with trading standards in relation to staff training and offering refresher training to all staff that are undertaking duties in selling alcohol and other age-restricted products. During the consultation period, Chair, we also received six representations from other persons who raised concerns regarding public nuisance, crime and disorder issues, and these are summarised on page 41 of the agenda. No other representations were received from other responsible authority in respect of this application. All the copies of the representations received have been forwarded to the applicant and have been made available to the subcommittee. The applicant has proposed measures to promote the licensing objectives and these are produced in Appendix A of the Report Chair, which is on pages 44 to 46 of the agenda. The subcommittee may modify these conditions if they consider such steps appropriate after hearing all the evidence tonight. So the options available to the committee are either to grant the application as requested, modify conditions of the licence if they are minded to grant it, or to reject the all part of the applications with a view to promoting the licensing objectives. This is the application as I understand it, Chair, but I'm happy to answer any queries or further points of clarification. Thank you. Thank you, Ms Sharkey. Does the subcommittee have any questions for the licensing manager, Councillor Virtual, Councillor Davies? Can I just have a quick one, please, Chair? Yes, so this is a completely new Launders has not opened yet, is that correct? The applicant may be able to confirm that, but in relation to carrying out the licensable activities for the sale of alcohol and late night refreshments, obviously that's the part that they are seeking for a licence. It may be that they're probably operating for other grocery activities, but the applicant might be able to confirm that, Councillor. Thank you. Mr Bishop, is it appropriate that we get that clarified now? Siris, do you want to explain that? Yes, Chair. So I can confirm the store has been hasn't been open yet in the process of newly at the moment. Sorry, I could hear it was not open yet, but I didn't hear the last bit. You kind of, the reception was quite bad. Could you just repeat the last? The last part is the store being prepared at the moment. You know, it's been fitted. OK, it's being fitted. By the London. Yeah. OK, thank you for the clarification there. Councillor Davies, anything for Ms Sharkey at this point? No, I'm quite clear on the application. Thank you very much. Thank you. Are there any other questions of clarification on anything that has been stated? As a reminder, both the applicant and representations, which I believe there are none present this evening, will have a chance to address the subcommittee. This should only be where you would like clarification on something stated by Ms Sharkey. No? No, thank you, Chair. Thank you. I will now invite the applicant to address the subcommittee, and you will have five minutes to speak, after which, yeah, after which questions may be asked of you. Thank you. All right. Thank you, Chair, and I will, so we heard about the application, so I will go straight into giving a brief details about this application, Chair. Let me tell you about this applicant. The applicant himself, Chair, has been working and operating premises in the city under Westminster Council for more than 10 years now, and this particular premises he has taken over to open a laundry stool, and it is joining the reputable retail chain store, Chair, and now this particular premise has become empty and it's been vacant. I think it is, you heard about the history of the premises, it's used as a restaurant, then recently as an estate agent, now it's going to be a local convenience store, and Chair, I think we are here to looking at promoting the licensing objectives, and on the appendix number 44-45, Chair, we had a lot of discussion with the police to agree some of the extra conditions to promote the licensing objectives, so since we have agreed to the conditions by the trading standard and the police, the conditions are robust, and it's time that we applied, Chair, I think, until 2 a.m. in the morning, now you know that we have amended the applications, agreed with the licensing hours, so at the moment the hours are midnight and 2 o'clock in the morning and Friday and Saturday in line with the licensing policy hours. and then I wanted to go right into Chair addressing the objections raised by the residents, and by looking at the objection, Chair, there are no specific concerns raised by the objectors, and looking at the page number 71, Chair, one of the objections, one of six objections, and Chair, you can read, and you can see from the objections, it's all about the need, I mean, their concerns about whether there is a need for an other convenience store, since there are so many other stores around there. What I can say for that, Chair, you know, it is about giving a choice of product for the residents, and though there are other convenience stores around the area, this business is about giving a choice for local residents, and they have different set of products, different set of services. And going further, Chair, I think, looking at all the objections, you know, what I can say, they were talking about that need, so a lot of objections about the need, and about the parking also, and they were talking about deliveries, so, the section on 74, particularly talking about whether there is violence will be posed by deliveries. Chair, I think the road here, called Park Gate, there are plenty of space to park behind on that road for deliveries, and the vans will be coming over there, and bring the delivery, the doorways, there are access by the road, the side road, Park Gate Road, where the delivery is coming through a lobby, and we don't think that it's going to cause any news, really. I think, in terms of the deliveries, I think this particular store has a plenty of options, I mean, in order for the deliveries, Chair, and the other thing that they were talking about, literature, I mean, there are no evidence provided here, there is always already a problem with the litter, but in any case, whether this particular premises would contribute, there's no evidence to say that, but in any case, Chair, the applicant will be managing the litter around the store, they will be cleaning and keeping the area tidy at all times, but if not, Chair, there will definitely be a complaint will come, because it's a very public place, that area is, and not only from the residents, I think the litter wouldn't be welcomed by any of the neighbours, although there is a coffee shop next to and some rooms are there as well, Chair. Thank you, sir, I'm going to stop you there because your five minutes have come to an end. Thank you for your representation, sir. Does the subcommittee have any questions for that applicant, Councillor Birchall? Thank you, Chair. Yes, deliveries and taking away of rubbish and things like that, because you're a corner site, and I presume Battersea Bridge Road is a red route, so you'll be having deliveries on, is it Parkgate Road? Yeah. Park Road? Have we got any restriction of time for having deliveries so that it's not the middle of the night? No, absolutely not. The deliveries happen between 8am, between 6pm during that period, and also on that road, you heard that there are so many other stores and store market and all have deliveries, and similar to that, these premises also will have deliveries, but it will not be going to 6pm. Thank you. Thank you. I just wanted to just raise something, Mr. Bishop, just in terms of neutrality. Thank you, Councillor Birchall, for that question. Are those questions something that is also more for the planning committee when this was granted as a change of use or something, or is that also within the wide arena of the licensing committee? No, so planning is planning, all those sort of things are outside this application, and the determination you've got to make. You're concentrating on crime and disorder, public nuisance, public safety, and protecting children from harm. Those are the only things you can consider. Okay, I just thank you for the clarification there. Councillor Davies? Yes, I've got two questions. The first is just the training was mentioned in one of the conditions. What does that training look like? Is it sort of, is it online, is it in person? Thank you for that. There is a training package they have. I mean, we actually provide that as well. On a regular basis, the staff will be going through that training program and they will sign all the documents they have understood and they have taken the training, and there will be a little test as well. So they will be taking the test every six months. We will be giving the training. The applicant has been very well experienced on that in terms of giving training to staff since he's been managing other premises in the city before. So the conditions are well strong enough in terms of the condition, Chair. I think the, yeah, the authorities will be checking that, you know, on a regular basis as well. Those are part of the conditions of the license. Chair, may I go ahead with my second? Yes, please go ahead, Councillor Davies. So I think I might sort of the condition about the strength of alcohol. Why do you think that condition is being introduced? Thank you for asking that question and it's something that we've been discussing in details with the police. Although there are no problem, mainly that conditions to address any street ringing. You know, sometimes the street ringers, they prefer to drink the strong beers and to prevent, because they will be buying, if they are street ringers, they will be buying the proper can of beer. So to prevent that, you know, we have that conditions. So they can only buy two. And they are quite expensive as well. So that will actually prevent the street ringers. Okay, so this makes me think that there probably is an existing problem of street drinking in the area. Absolutely. It is not. It is not, actually. But it is the concerns. Sometimes, you know, through the conditions, we address the concerns. It is about promoting the licensing objectives of prevention of public nuisance in particular. And it is actually a preventative system than other as opposed to something to address the concerns that already exist. Thank you. I have a couple of questions. So just first one to do with the layout and potential shoplifting of alcohol. So has a due consideration been paid to late at night, you know, people running in to steal quantities of alcohol, steal things? So making sure, has that been considered and how the new fit out of this premises has been designed? Because I know you have to have three people on past 12 o'clock and then obviously there's vulnerability in terms of theft and so forth, but especially in terms of high value items such as alcohol. Yeah, thank you, Chair. I think as you can see from the plan, as you walk into the store, alcohol are behind the till on the right and then also rear of the area. So it is very difficult for people to take and run away, but because the person who is standing at the kill, they will be closely monitoring that. So that is kind of a threat as well. But staff as well, you know, they are well-experienced person who will be operating the premises, so wherever they need it, they will have extra staff. And the other things like CCTV systems and things like that will prevent the CCTV system, event, yeah, in terms of OK, thank you for that. And the other question was, I don't see it listed and maybe I'm having a look at my documents, so excuse me that you see my eyes down, but it's just about where the display of spirits are. Are those behind the till? Are those on the shelf? Behind the till chair, absolutely. It won't be outside, it will be behind the till. OK, thank you. Councillors, are there any other questions for the applicant? Great, thank you. I'll save my spiel because I don't want to get told off by Mr Flowers. Are there any other questions or clarification or anything that has been stated? As a reminder, the representations will have a chance to address the committee and this should only be where you'd like clarification on something stated by the applicant. No? I know that we have Sir Charlene here, he's not a representative as he's under the umbrella of the applicant, I just want to check. Yep, under the umbrella of the applicant, yes. Mr Flowers? I was just going to confirm that he's part of the applicant chair. OK, thank you. So we do not have any further representations this evening in person, but we do have that which was submitted as part of the licensing bundle. I will now invite the applicant to provide any closing remarks which they would like to submit. This should be limited to a maximum of two minutes. I will first, we don't have anybody making representations, so the applicant, please, if you would be so kind as to make your final representations within two minutes. Thank you. Thank you, Chair, and what I wanted to say is we have agreed the conditions with the authorities. There is no other representation outstanding from any other responsible authorities, considering that also the objections are mostly related to a need as opposed to really pinpointing the licensing objectives. So, in any case, we have agreed a number of conditions and we also put part of the application number of conditions to part of the operating schedule to promote the licensing objectives. Concerning all of those, Chair, I think we would like you to invite you to look at this application very positively. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your last representation. So, this concludes the second applications discussion at the public part of the meeting. Now we have considered both applications, we will retire to a separate meeting room to make the decisions where only members of the licensing subcommittee, the Democratic Services Officer and Legal Advisor will be present. The decisions, reasons and any legal guidance given during the subcommittee's discussion that has informed their decision will be confirmed in writing together with information about any rights of appeal within five working days. We thank you for your attendance and we will now proceed to go into the other room.