Transcript
Thank you, Chair. The meeting is now live.
Thank you. Good evening, everybody. Welcome to the meeting of the Licensing Subcommittee, which is being held as a remote meeting. This meeting is being webcast, and please bear with us if there are any technical issues. My name is Councillor French, and I am chairing this meeting. I will now invite the other attendees to introduce themselves in the following order.
Councillor, Councillors, Officers, Applicants, Representations.
Apologies, Chair, one procedural matter which I omitted by accident, but just to confirm that Councillor French had nominated for the chair, can I just confirm for the record, Councillor Birchall and Davies, you're happy with that?
Yes.
Thank you. I'll pass back to you, Councillor French. Sorry for that.
Thank you, Councillor Davies.
Yes. Yes. Good evening, everybody.
Councillor Birchall.
Yeah. Good evening. I'm Councillor Birchall.
Thank you. Over to you, officers.
Guy Bishop, Legal Advisor to the Subcommittee.
It's Caroline Sharkey, Chair. I'll be presenting the report to you.
Thank you.
And Michael Flowers, Democratic Services, and the clerk for the meeting.
Thank you. Applicants?
That's it.
Good evening. My name is Leo Charolambides.
I'm the barrister representing Shell, and I have with me today Donna Lockett, who is the licensing agent. Thank you.
Thank you. And representations?
Good evening. I'm Councillor Matthew Tiller, Councillor for Rayhampton, and I'm here to speak about the Shell application.
Thank you, everybody. So, going on to our agenda, are there any apologies for absence or declarations of interest for any items on the agenda?
If yes, please could you confirm the apology for absence slash declaration of interest?
I will just confirm for the applicants and the representation that whilst councillors Davies and Birchall weren't listed as the expected attendees for the meeting,
their attendance is allowed as members of the licensing committee, and they have both been able to read the papers in full prior to the meeting.
Thank you for that clarification, Mr Flowers.
Mr Chalambides, excuse my pronunciation.
Not at all. Thank you. I'm sorry. There's probably a simple answer to this, but I'm not sure who or what role Councillor Tiller plays in this hearing,
because I don't have a representation from him.
Councillor, Mr Flowers, would you like to clarify the question?
Yes. Yes, and I'll invite Councillor Tiller to correct me if I say anything incorrect,
but Councillor Henderson had submitted the representation on behalf of the ward councillors.
Councillor Tiller is attending tonight instead of Councillor Henderson as a representative of his representation,
but he would be one of the three ward councillors who, the single representation was written,
but he's attending on behalf of Councillor Henderson.
But Councillor Tiller may want to confirm anything.
Thank you, Mr Flowers, that's correct.
Sir, would you like to have any further question there?
Sorry, yes. Page 28 of the agenda, it is addressed to, it's signed by Councillor Graham Henderson.
It's signed as Labour councillor in the singular for Roe Hampton,
and it's signed Cabinet Member for Adult Care and Health and Community Safety.
That's page 28, so it's in the singular.
And on page 26, he opens with, I am the Cabinet Member.
And then he continues with, all three Roe Hampton councillors are strongly opposed,
as well as references to the Labour MP.
But as far as we're aware, it's just the single councillor that's made representations.
So if your legal advisor perhaps could confirm whether or not you've received notification
in accordance with the hearing procedures that Councillor Tiller will be speaking
as a representative, not as a local councillor, that will be helpful.
In the meantime, ma'am, given that my instructing agent is listening to this,
perhaps if she could message me on WhatsApp to let me know if she's been informed by the council
that there is a representative, that would be very helpful. Thank you.
Thank you for that question, Mr Bishop.
You're muted, sir.
School boy error, thank you.
My understanding is Councillor Tiller is speaking to the representation
at the instruction of the councillor.
That is it.
Thank you, Mr Bishop.
I just want to ask, Mr, can you repeat your name?
Because I don't want to keep saying it wrong.
So I'm going to ask you just to repeat it.
And I have a disability, so I usually have to see things phonetically,
but I'd like to be able to get it correct.
So, sir, please repeat for me.
Thank you very much.
I can type it phonetically, and I've had every version,
so you're never going to get it wrong.
But it's charalambides.
Charalambides, okay.
Yeah, it was written phonetically in the hospital.
Whereas if you were Greek, it would be charalambides,
which is completely different.
So charalambides is fine.
Charalambides.
Thank you, sir.
Thank you for your grace with that.
Have you received any notification on WhatsApp from your colleague?
No, we've not been informed.
She's confirmed that.
Yeah, I don't think we're going to take an objection,
but I'm grateful for the clarity that Councillor Tiller is here
speaking to his colleague's representation
and not speaking on his own behalf.
That's very helpful.
Thank you very much.
Thank you for...
I don't think he could.
Thank you.
Mr Bishop?
I was just saying he couldn't, because he hasn't got a rep.
Okay.
Well, there we are.
So if we can proceed with matters.
Yeah?
Okay.
So we have had apologies.
We had an update on who was meant to attend.
There are no declarations of interest to be recorded.
No?
Okay.
Agenda item four.
We will now consider the first application on the agenda,
which is for a variation of a premises license in respect of the premises
known as Shell Little Waitrose Rowhampton, 237 to 239 Rowhampton Lane.
That's CRO Whiskey 154 Lima, Bravo.
And I now invite the licensing manager, Ms Sharkey, to introduce the application.
Thank you, Chair.
I'm mindful that you've, the members and you, Chair, you've read the report.
So I'll just give you a summary of the paper before you.
As you've said, Chair, this is an application that's been submitted by Share All Products
Limited.
This is an application to vary its existing premises license.
The applicant is seeking to update the internal layout of the premises as shown on the plan
and also extend the hours for the sale of alcohol for consumption of the premises, 24 hours a day,
Monday to Sunday, seven days a week.
The applicant is also requesting to remove all the conditions under Annex 2 of the license
and to replace them with more up-to-date conditions consistent with the operating schedule.
This application was advertised as required by law.
This resulted in the applicant agreeing additional conditions with the Met Police.
And this was in relation to having two members of staff on duty between 11 p.m. and 5 a.m. each day
and that all services will take place through the night hatch between 11 p.m. and 5 a.m. daily.
The premises license order also agreed to require any third-party delivery partner delivering
on behalf of the premises license order to ensure that they have all the checks in place
in terms of if they're selling alcohol to use the Challenge 25 age verification.
We also received five representations, chair and from councillors and an MP
who have made a joint representation as discussed earlier.
They've all raised concerns in relation to public nuisance and incidents of crime and disorder
and increase in street drinking.
No other representations were received from other responsible authorities.
A copy of all the representations received have been forwarded to the applicant
and are available to the subcommittee tonight.
The applicant has also proposed measures to promote the licensing objectives as conditions
if the licensing subcommittee were minded to grant the license.
These are produced in appendix A of the report chair, which is on pages 8 to 9 of the agenda.
The subcommittee may modify these proposed conditions if they consider such steps appropriate
after hearing all the evidence tonight for promoting the licensing objectives.
So the options available to the subcommittee tonight is either to grant the application as requested,
modify some of the conditions or to reject the all part of the application.
That is the application as I understand it, chair.
I'm happy to answer any questions or any follow-up points of clarification with the application.
Thank you.
Thank you, Ms Sharkey.
Does the subcommittee have any questions for the licensing manager?
No, thank you.
Thank you.
Okay, moving on.
Are there any other questions of clarification on anything that has been stated?
As a reminder, both the applicant and representations will have a chance to address the subcommittee,
and this should only be where you would like clarification on something that has been said by the licensing manager.
Ma'am, there are two conditions that were agreed with the police that are missing from Schedule A and one condition that needs amendment.
I don't know if you would like me to clarify that now or as part of my submission, whatever is easier for you and your colleagues.
I feel now would be a good point, just so that it's spoken.
It doesn't eat into your time, because if it was something that should have been included and is not,
then I think it would be fair that you speak about it now as opposed to later.
Thank you.
So I've double-checked the correspondence between Donna Lockett and Emiko Simpson,
and conditions 15 and 16 are missing.
So condition 15 says all staff that undertake the sale or supply of alcohol, open brackets,
and any other age-restricted product, close brackets, shall receive appropriate initial training,
followed by refresher training in relation to undertaking appropriate age checks on such,
at least every six months, full stop.
So I don't think the training condition deals with that introductory training.
And then condition 16 says records of all staff training relating to the sale or supply of alcohol,
open brackets, and any other age-restricted product, close brackets, comma,
along with any training material used, comma,
will be kept and maintained by the designated premises supervisor or the premises license holder.
So that's about the training material.
I don't think those two are controversial and they're there.
And then condition 9, firstly, as drafted in your agenda, a word is missing,
but in fact the police wanted something more restrictive for that.
So in the first part, your current condition says there will be two members of staff on duty
between the hours of 2,300 hours and 500 hours each day.
Then it would be comma, otherwise all services will take place through the night hatch.
So the word otherwise is missing.
However, the police came back to us and said we don't want the premises operating for access
between 11 and 5, whether you have one member of staff or two, three, four or five.
So that condition should actually read and has been agreed.
All services will take place through the night hatch between 2,300 hours and 0,500 hours daily.
So it's much more restrictive and we've agreed that.
So if you're minded to grant the license and accept these conditions,
everything from the word there today, comma, is struck out and all has a capital A
and that has the effect of agreeing to the police restriction, which we've agreed to,
which is that they don't want direct access by the public to the premises.
Thank you for that additional information.
Mr. Bishop, is anything to be stated at this point?
I see you as making code.
No, in deliberations.
OK, thank you.
OK, any other questions or points of clarification for Ms. Sharkey?
No?
OK, I will now invite the applicant to address the supplement committee
and you'll have five minutes to speak, after which questions may be asked of you.
Well, thank you very much.
This is a variation application for an existing premises that's been operating in this area
for 24-7 since 2011.
There is no planning restriction on its hours of operation.
And so in terms of amenity, which is far wider than the licensing objectives,
your local authority is deemed as appropriate to be operating in that way.
It's operated 24-7 much since that time, whether it's been Shell or Waitrose or now Shell again.
Late night refreshment has been granted for this premises throughout the night
and there is alcohol sales till midnight Sunday to Thursday and then until 2 a.m. on Friday and Saturday.
As you can see, what we've done is provided you with an updated layout.
We've sought to extend the alcohol sales and replace the Annex 2 conditions,
which is to effectively modernise them and bring together a very robust set of conditions.
In terms of the representations we've received,
we're grateful for the cooperation we've had from the responsible authorities,
particularly your police licensing officer, who's gone through the application with us.
There's been extensive discussion and has requested various conditions,
particularly around CCTV deliveries, staffing levels and so on,
all of which we're happy to agree and reflect the ethos of Shell.
In terms of the representations by civil society and your colleague in the local ward,
you'll no doubt have noticed as licensing members
that he refers to public safety and so on.
As you and your colleagues know, public safety doesn't mean the safety of people in the surrounding area.
It's about the safety of persons using premises.
So that means the safety when they come on site.
You can't get safer than a petrol station of this site.
It's brightly lit.
It's covered by CCTV, internal, external, and has very sophisticated systems in place.
It's a premises at which age-restricted products, dangerous age-restricted products,
are available to the public, fuel, cigarettes, solvents and so on,
and it operates under a multitude of licences in order to achieve that.
It seems odd, then, that there are representations that say,
what about the security?
What about, you know, antisocial behaviour after hours at this venue?
Well, it can't just happen.
If you're planning on engaging in antisocial behaviour,
you're not going to come to a well-lit area which is covered by CCTV.
As you and your legal advisor and licensing officer will confirm,
a licensed premises can only really be held responsible for matters on its own premises.
Beyond that, the Section 182 guidance tells us it's a matter of personal responsibility.
The Section 182 guidance also tells us that licensing regime is not the answer to everything.
It's just part of a holistic solution.
So the question is, is this premises doing all it can to promote the licensing objectives?
According to your police, the answer is yes.
There's no other responsible authorities engaged.
It seems odd that your colleagues are saying there are numerous complaints,
that one resident has regularly reported fights.
There have been no such concerns raised by the police.
There's been no such concerns raised by environmental health.
And I'm, in order to answer that, I'm reminded of the case of Thwaites,
which tells us that, you know, civil society might,
as a result of feeling overwhelmed by these applications,
be affected by fears and so on,
which might just be amplified,
given their uncertainty in the regime.
But, Ma'am, Lockett & Co have been operating as licensing agents for Shell for many years,
and I've been acting for Shell for more years than I care to remember.
And I know for a fact that we don't have any reviews.
What tends to happen is, if there are any concerns,
they directly contact the licensing consultants,
they immediately engage,
they seek to improve conditions,
and they're very collaborative in their response.
There is no record of any complaints on this site,
either through Waitrose or Shell.
So, I do commend this application to you and your colleague, Ma'am.
And the conditions will address any and all of the concerns raised,
as will our cooperation.
Time out.
Thank you very much.
Oh, you're professional at this there.
Thank you.
I might have done it before.
I think so.
Do we have any questions now from the licensing committee?
I invite you.
Any questions from the councillors on the subcommittee?
Councillor Birchall, thank you.
Sorry, I was trying to get to my cursor up to my hand.
Yes, I was just wondering,
thank you for a very good presentation.
I was just wondering,
who do you expect to be buying alcohol
between two and six in the morning?
And how many sales do you expect?
And what's the evidence that this extended hours is needed?
Well, Ma'am, as you're aware,
need and commercial considerations are not relevant.
So I don't have those answers.
And respectfully, even if I did,
I wouldn't share them because they wouldn't be relevant to this hearing.
I'm sure your legal advisor can take you to the relevant paragraph
in the section 182 guidance.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Any other questions?
Sorry, just a minute.
Mr. Bishop.
Yeah, I mean, it doesn't mean you can't answer the question
about who would be buying between two and six in the morning.
Legitimate people about their business
who want to get coming home from work,
going out, having home deliveries.
We don't profile our customers.
It's a 24-hour convenience
in much the same way that you can fill up your car
any time throughout the night.
Stop for a coffee.
Stop for convenience.
Alcohol is no more than such a convenience choice.
Thank you for the response.
Councillors, Councillor Davies.
Yes, thank you.
I mean, I had a similar question, actually.
I've got two, if I may.
One is, do you have any analysis
about whether these are people, you know,
commuting across London or their local customers?
Just to give me an understanding of, you know,
the nature of the business.
And I suppose in relation to the Roehampton Council submission.
But secondly, I just wondered what the reasons are for the layout,
whether that's just to do with the latest best practice on marketing
and, you know, maybe sort of thinking about the consumer,
if that's related in some way to this application.
Thank you.
So, Mum, the layout changes, firstly, as a result of COVID,
one of the ways in which these convenience stores were developed,
they were found to be a very convenient source,
particularly for third-party delivery services.
So you're at home at 2, 3 in the morning
and you've forgotten eggs, flour, milk, cigarettes, or indeed alcohol,
then you're able to call in.
And so somewhere like Little Waitrose or Tesco's Express
or any local convenience store can provide that.
So from the point of view of local authority and the police,
these are quite attractive because, as I said,
they're under lights, they're under CCTV,
the sort of bikes aren't revving outside local community areas.
So they're real hubs that we've found local authorities prefer.
So because of that, the catchment for these types of sales
tends to be fairly local, including walk-ups.
Ever since COVID, as people have gotten lazier
because you can now pay for your deliveries at home,
there's less and less walk-ups at the night hatch
and more and more delivery drivers.
And similarly for local sales, I think it is a good question.
What I do have to say is that if you come to a Shell convenience
or a Shell Waitrose convenience,
and I'm not sure I should be,
well, I've said this many times in a public forum,
the markup is really quite off-putting.
So if you are one of these types that the councillors imagine
and fear that you're going to be out on a night out,
you've been on the lash, you want to continue,
you're going to get cheap booze somewhere
and then continue with antisocial behaviour in the local park,
this type of store is really not the place for you.
Because if you're drunk and you turn up at our counter,
we will get a really clear image of you.
We will recognise that.
We will refuse your sales.
And it's really expensive, given the markup.
So that gives you an idea of the kind of customers
and the demographics we have.
It does vary from area to area, however.
Thank you.
I have just one question.
It's more of a clarification, actually,
because you had input the information with Ms Sharkey.
So as of 11 o'clock at night,
the doors are closed for the business
and everything goes through the hatch.
It doesn't matter if I'm buying bread, milk and cheese.
You know, I've got a bit of a personal shopper
between 11 p.m. and 5 a.m. in the morning,
regardless of whether alcohol is.
OK, I just wanted clarification on.
And in fact, at this store,
the operator has tended to operate his closed door policy
from 10 until 6.
So 10 p.m. until 6 a.m.
So he doesn't open his door until newspapers and milk
in the morning, effectively.
And one final way, just kind of observations last question
is about where this is located,
because it's not far from an A road, isn't it,
in terms of locality.
So it's off the dual carriageway.
Yeah, the dual carriageway,
and then going up, like, onto quite a major...
A3.
A3.
So just in terms of locality,
I suppose there are local people that live there,
but equally it is on a kind of prominent location
in terms of people visiting that are not
from the Roehampton slash Putney Wandsworth area.
Yes, you'll either get local people on foot,
delivery services,
which are scattered around the locality anyway,
whether they're dealing with late-night refreshments
or convenience stores,
or people driving and collecting their fuel
and therefore also stocking up.
It's not our experience
that people travel from far and wide
to come to a small convenience store in this way.
It's not a destination venue in that way.
It tends to have a relatively local catchment area.
Thank you for that.
Any other questions from the councillors for the applicant?
Thank you.
I'll just repeat my script
because I didn't ask it in the correct way
and I don't want to get told by Mr Flowers.
Are there any other questions or clarification
on anything that has been stated?
As a reminder,
the representations will have a chance
to address the committee
and this should be only where you'd like
clarification on something stated by the speaker
in this instance, the applicant.
Okay, that seems like a resounding no.
I cannot see any requests for questions
or clarifications,
so I will now invite those making representations
to address the subcommittee
and you will have five minutes to speak
after which questions may be asked of you
and I believe that this evening
that's Councillor Tiller.
Thank you, Chair.
So, to forestall any further objections
about you hearing from me
rather than Councillor Henderson,
I should say that, firstly,
Councillor Henderson is out of the country
unavoidably,
so that's why I'm stepping in
and, secondly,
that Councillor Henderson,
my colleague Councillor Yates
and I have discussed this very thoroughly
between ourselves
and we are sitting in from the same hymn sheet,
so what I'm saying here
is of a piece with representation
made by Councillor Henderson.
So, what I'd like to say
is that extending alcohol sales to 24 hours
will likely increase late-night disturbances
and criminal behaviour
in an area that's already struggling
with antisocial activity
and street drinking.
I speak from personal experience
as well as being a Councillor
since I'm a resident
and I've actually brought past
some antisocial behaviour
on my way home here.
I know we have a fair share
of antisocial behaviour
already connected to drug-taking
and also to street drinking
and it really doesn't need to be exacerbated
by making alcohol any easier to obtain
and, as we've already discussed,
residents already report fights
and criminal damage
in nearby Wilhampton High Street
and Midfield Street
and on the point of doubt
being thrown on the account
of the resident
who reported fights
within the premises
and I have to say
that the argument
that, you know,
surely the police would know about it,
well, no,
the police don't know
about every fight that happens
and it's very disingenuous
to imply that
residents are either hallucinating
or being dishonest
when they report such fights
and so I hope that
that will be taken into account.
So, selling alcohol around the clock
at a petrol station
undermines public safety
and increases the risk
of drunk driving
and violent incidents.
The proposed hours
will lead to more street drinking,
noise, litter
and disturbing residents
and degrading the local environment
and what I don't believe
has been mentioned so far
is that
it's very close to a school
and also to a church,
to a primary school, in fact.
And so,
allowing 24-hour alcohol sales
near a school
risks normalising
irresponsible drinking
and increases
the chance
of having underage
access to alcohol
and that's the end
of my presentation.
I'm willing to take questions.
Thank you, Councillor Tiller.
Does the subcommittee
have any questions
for those making representations
this evening?
No.
Councillor Davies?
No?
Yes,
Councillor Tiller,
do you
have a sort of view
on the primary school
and the people
that go to the church
in the primary school?
It's like how,
apart from walking
by the premises,
can you explain to me
why they might be affected?
Well,
I mean,
the primary school
is nearby people,
near to people
who have visited
these premises
and purchased alcohol
there.
So,
that has to be
taken into account.
Was there something
about littering?
I think in the...
Littering is also
a problem
in the local area.
Yes,
and sadly,
the primary school
and church grounds
aren't that well secured.
We've got
low walls.
So,
that is
something to bear in mind.
If people
are
obtaining alcohol
late at night
and want something
to drink it,
that's where they may go.
Thank you.
Any further questions
from the subcommittee?
Okay,
thank you,
Councillor Davies.
Are there any other
questions or
clarification
on anything
that has been
stated?
Thank you.
I can see
no requests
for questions
of clarification.
I will now
invite each party
to provide
any closing remarks
they would like
to submit.
This should be
limited to a maximum
of two minutes.
I will first
invite those
making representations
followed by the applicant
to address
the licensing committee.
So,
Councillor Tiller,
would you have
two minutes
to say anything
further?
Thank you.
Ah,
right.
Yes,
I don't have a great deal
to add to what
I've just said.
Except that
to ask
the committee
to not approve
this application.
I mean,
I can say
in mitigation
that I've been
a customer
of little
waitrose myself
I've got
nothing against
the establishment
but
I, for one,
might well have
if this goes ahead
and so many
other residents.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for that.
And now
I'm going to
just reset my timer.
over to you,
applicant.
Ma'am,
thank you very much.
Firstly,
much has been said
about age
restricted,
the impact
on primary school
children
shall have
an impeccable
record in terms
of age
restricted
and dealing
with dangerous
goods,
fuel,
solvents,
cigarettes
and alcohol
with no
issues.
With respect
to the local
residents
and Councillor
Latilla,
no responsible
authorities have
applied their
expert mind
to this and
come up with
any concerns.
If they had
the idea that
people purchasing
alcohol because
they're near
schools would
have been seen
for what it is,
which is unhelpful
because you would
then go around
closing down your
supermarkets,
your convenience
stores and
everything else
that's cheek
by jowl.
the simple
point is
that there's
an operating
schedule here
that hasn't
been criticised,
that has in
fact been
endorsed by
the police,
that's been
improved with
the police
help,
given that
there are
no criticisms
of that
operating
schedule,
there's no
reason why
this premises
cannot operate
in a way
to support
the licensing
objectives,
be an asset
in the local
area,
and if in
the unlikely
event that
that fails,
it can be
reviewed by
your police
and your
responsible
authorities.
So given
there's been
no criticism
of our
operating schedule,
I can do
nothing but
commend the
application to
you.
Thank you
very much.
Thank you.
This now
concludes the
first applications
discussion at
the public
part of the
meeting.
After we've
considered the
second application,
we will retire
to a separate
confidential meeting
room to make
the decision
where only
members of
the licensing
subcommittee,
the democratic
services officer
and legal
advisor will be
present.
The decisions,
reasons and
any legal
guidance given
during the
subcommittee's
discussion that
has informed
their decision
will be
confirmed in
writing together
with information
about any
rights of
appeal within
five working
days.
We thank you
for your
attendance and
we will now
proceed to the
second application
on the agenda
tonight.
Thank you,
Mr.
Shahalam Des.
Thank you very
much and have a
good evening to
you all.
Thank you.
Bye-bye.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Good evening.
To your
colleagues as
well.
Thank you,
Councillor
Tiller.
Thank you
very much.
And Donna
Lockett.
Thank you.
Okay.
I think we're
just waiting.
Sad
Cheyenne, can
you just say
your name for
me so I can
pronounce it?
It would be
good for me
to be able.
That's the
end, yeah.
Oh, that's
perfect.
Oh, hello.
Good evening.
I can hear you.
We can hear you.
We can hear you.
Thank you.
Okay, thank you.
Hold on one
second, please.
Okay.
So I'll
Oh, excuse me.
All right.
Great.
Is it my time
to
represent
the case?
No, no, not
your turn yet.
Okay.
Not your turn yet.
One second.
Not yet.
Okay, great.
Thanks.
I just
been out for a
while.
Thank you,
too.
One second.
I'm just
going to get
my notes.
Okay.
Okay, so
we've had the
formal introductions
of everybody
here, but just
for the record,
in case you
weren't here,
we have
Councillor
Birchall,
Councillor
Davis and
myself as
part of the
subcommittee and
we're being
guided this
evening by
Mr.
Bishop, our
legal advisor.
We have
Mr.
Flowers, who's
the Democratic
Services Officer
and Miss
Sharkey, who is
the licensing
manager, just
in case you
weren't available.
Mr.
Flowers, is there
anything that you
need to say at
this point?
No, Chair, thank
you very much.
Okay, fabulous.
Okay, we're going
to proceed.
We're now
considered the
second application
on the
agenda, which
is for a
new
premises
license for
the Londys
on 59
Battersea
Bridge Road,
London, and
that's Sierra
Whiskey 11,
3, Alpha
Uniform.
And I now
invite the
licensing
manager to
introduce the
application.
Thank you,
Chair.
Again, I'll
just give you
the brief
outline of
the application
that you have
before you.
So, this
is an
application
that's been
submitted by
Thad Cheyenne
and it's
for Londys
on 59
Battersea
Bridge.
These
premises are
located in
Battersea
Park Road.
This is a
new business
venture chair.
However, the
premises has
previously held
a premises
license as a
restaurant in
2017 and
more recently
has been
trading as
an estate
agent.
The
applicant has
applied for
the sale of
alcohol for
consumption of
the premises
between 6
a.m.
and 0
2 a.m.
the following
day, Sunday
through to
Saturday, and
also for late
night refreshments
between 11
p.m. and 2
a.m.
Sunday through
to Saturday.
The application
was advertised
as required and
this resulted in
the applicant
agreeing several
conditions with
the Metropolitan
Police.
These are listed
on page 40
of the agenda.
The applicant
also agreed some
additional conditions
with trading
standards in
relation to
staff training
and offering
refresher training
to all staff
that are
undertaking
duties in
selling alcohol
and other
age-restricted
products.
During the
consultation period,
Chair, we also
received six
representations
from other
persons who
raised concerns
regarding public
nuisance, crime
and disorder
issues, and
these are
summarised on
page 41
of the
agenda.
No other
representations
were received
from other
responsible
authority in
respect of
this application.
All the
copies of the
representations
received have
been forwarded
to the
applicant and
have been
made available
to the
subcommittee.
The applicant
has proposed
measures to
promote the
licensing
objectives and
these are
produced in
Appendix A of
the Report
Chair, which
is on pages
44 to 46
of the
agenda.
The subcommittee
may modify
these conditions
if they consider
such steps
appropriate after
hearing all the
evidence tonight.
So the options
available to the
committee are
either to
grant the
application as
requested,
modify
conditions of
the licence
if they are
minded to
grant it,
or to
reject the
all part of
the applications
with a view
to promoting
the licensing
objectives.
This is the
application as I
understand it,
Chair, but I'm
happy to answer
any queries or
further points of
clarification.
Thank you.
Thank you,
Ms Sharkey.
Does the
subcommittee have
any questions for
the licensing
manager, Councillor
Virtual, Councillor
Davies?
Can I just have a
quick one, please,
Chair?
Yes, so this is
a completely new
Launders has not
opened yet, is
that correct?
The applicant
may be able to
confirm that, but
in relation to
carrying out the
licensable
activities for the
sale of alcohol
and late night
refreshments,
obviously that's
the part that
they are seeking
for a licence.
It may be that
they're probably
operating for other
grocery activities,
but the applicant
might be able to
confirm that,
Councillor.
Thank you.
Mr Bishop, is it
appropriate that we
get that clarified
now?
Siris, do you
want to explain
that?
Yes, Chair.
So I can confirm
the store
has been
hasn't been
open yet
in the
process of
newly
at the moment.
Sorry, I could
hear it was not
open yet, but I
didn't hear the
last bit.
You kind of, the
reception was
quite bad.
Could you just
repeat the last?
The last part
is the store
being prepared
at the moment.
You know, it's
been fitted.
OK, it's
being fitted.
By the
London.
Yeah.
OK, thank you
for the
clarification there.
Councillor Davies,
anything for
Ms Sharkey at
this point?
No, I'm quite
clear on the
application.
Thank you
very much.
Thank you.
Are there any
other questions
of clarification
on anything
that has been
stated?
As a reminder,
both the
applicant and
representations,
which I believe
there are none
present this
evening, will
have a chance
to address
the subcommittee.
This should
only be where
you would
like clarification
on something
stated by
Ms Sharkey.
No?
No, thank
you, Chair.
Thank you.
I will now
invite the
applicant to
address the
subcommittee,
and you will
have five
minutes to
speak, after
which, yeah,
after which
questions may
be asked of
you.
Thank you.
All right.
Thank you,
Chair, and
I will, so
we heard
about the
application,
so I will
go straight
into giving
a brief
details about
this application,
Chair.
Let me tell
you about
this applicant.
The applicant
himself, Chair,
has been
working and
operating premises
in the city
under Westminster
Council for
more than 10
years now, and
this particular
premises he
has taken over
to open a
laundry stool,
and it is
joining the
reputable
retail chain
store, Chair,
and now this
particular
premise has
become empty
and it's
been vacant.
I think it
is, you heard
about the
history of the
premises, it's
used as a
restaurant, then
recently as an
estate agent,
now it's going
to be a
local convenience
store, and
Chair, I
think we are
here to
looking at
promoting the
licensing
objectives, and
on the
appendix
number 44-45,
Chair, we
had a lot of
discussion with
the police to
agree some of
the extra
conditions to
promote the
licensing
objectives, so
since we have
agreed to the
conditions by the
trading standard
and the
police, the
conditions are
robust, and
it's time that
we applied, Chair,
I think, until
2 a.m. in the
morning, now you
know that we
have amended the
applications, agreed
with the licensing
hours, so at the
moment the hours
are midnight and
2 o'clock in the
morning and Friday
and Saturday in
line with the
licensing policy
hours.
and then
I wanted to
go right into
Chair addressing
the objections
raised by the
residents, and
by looking at
the objection,
Chair, there
are no specific
concerns raised
by the
objectors, and
looking at
the page
number 71,
Chair, one of
the objections,
one of six
objections, and
Chair, you can
read, and you
can see from the
objections, it's
all about the
need, I mean,
their concerns
about whether
there is a need
for an other
convenience store,
since there are so
many other
stores around
there.
What I can say
for that, Chair,
you know, it is
about giving a
choice of product
for the
residents, and
though there are
other
convenience stores
around the
area, this
business is
about giving a
choice for
local residents,
and they have
different set of
products, different
set of
services.
And going
further, Chair, I
think, looking at
all the
objections, you
know, what I
can say, they
were talking
about that
need, so a
lot of
objections about
the need, and
about the
parking also, and
they were talking
about deliveries,
so, the
section on
74, particularly
talking about
whether there is
violence will be
posed by
deliveries.
Chair, I
think the
road here,
called Park
Gate, there
are plenty of
space to
park behind on
that road for
deliveries, and
the vans will
be coming over
there, and
bring the
delivery, the
doorways, there
are access by
the road, the
side road, Park
Gate Road, where
the delivery is
coming through
a lobby, and
we don't think
that it's going
to cause any
news, really.
I think, in
terms of the
deliveries, I
think this
particular store
has a plenty
of options, I
mean, in order
for the
deliveries, Chair,
and the
other thing
that they
were talking
about, literature,
I mean, there
are no evidence
provided here,
there is always
already a
problem with
the litter, but
in any case,
whether this
particular premises
would contribute,
there's no
evidence to say
that, but in
any case, Chair,
the applicant
will be managing
the litter
around the
store, they
will be
cleaning and
keeping the
area tidy at
all times, but
if not, Chair,
there will
definitely be
a complaint
will come,
because it's
a very public
place, that
area is, and
not only from
the residents, I
think the litter
wouldn't be
welcomed by any
of the neighbours,
although there
is a coffee
shop next to
and some
rooms are there
as well, Chair.
Thank you, sir,
I'm going to
stop you there
because your
five minutes
have come to
an end.
Thank you for
your representation,
sir.
Does the
subcommittee have
any questions for
that applicant,
Councillor
Birchall?
Thank you,
Chair.
Yes,
deliveries and
taking away of
rubbish and
things like that,
because you're a
corner site,
and I presume
Battersea Bridge
Road is a red
route, so
you'll be having
deliveries on,
is it Parkgate
Road?
Yeah.
Park Road?
Have we got any
restriction of
time for having
deliveries so that
it's not the
middle of the
night?
No, absolutely
not.
The deliveries
happen between
8am, between
6pm during that
period, and
also on that
road, you
heard that there
are so many
other stores and
store market and
all have
deliveries, and
similar to that,
these premises
also will have
deliveries, but
it will not be
going to
6pm.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I just wanted
to just raise
something, Mr.
Bishop, just in
terms of
neutrality.
Thank you,
Councillor
Birchall, for
that question.
Are those
questions something
that is also more
for the planning
committee when this
was granted as a
change of use or
something, or is
that also within the
wide arena of the
licensing committee?
No, so planning is
planning, all those
sort of things are
outside this
application, and the
determination you've
got to make.
You're concentrating on
crime and disorder,
public nuisance,
public safety, and
protecting children
from harm.
Those are the only
things you can
consider.
Okay, I just
thank you for the
clarification there.
Councillor Davies?
Yes, I've got two
questions.
The first is just
the training was
mentioned in one of
the conditions.
What does that
training look like?
Is it sort of, is
it online, is it in
person?
Thank you for that.
There is a training
package they have.
I mean, we actually
provide that as well.
On a regular basis, the
staff will be going
through that training
program and they will
sign all the documents
they have understood
and they have taken
the training, and there
will be a little test as
well.
So they will be taking
the test every six
months.
We will be giving the
training.
The applicant has been
very well experienced
on that in terms of
giving training to
staff since he's been
managing other
premises in the city
before.
So the conditions are
well strong enough in
terms of the
condition, Chair.
I think the, yeah,
the authorities will be
checking that, you know,
on a regular basis as
well.
Those are part of the
conditions of the
license.
Chair, may I go ahead
with my second?
Yes, please go ahead,
Councillor Davies.
So I think I might
sort of the condition
about the strength of
alcohol.
Why do you think that
condition is being
introduced?
Thank you for asking
that question and
it's something that
we've been discussing
in details with the
police.
Although there are no
problem, mainly that
conditions to address
any street ringing.
You know, sometimes
the street ringers,
they prefer to drink
the strong beers and
to prevent, because
they will be buying,
if they are street
ringers, they will be
buying the proper
can of beer.
So to prevent that,
you know, we have
that conditions.
So they can only buy
two.
And they are quite
expensive as well.
So that will actually
prevent the street
ringers.
Okay, so this makes
me think that there
probably is an existing
problem of street
drinking in the
area.
Absolutely.
It is not.
It is not, actually.
But it is the
concerns.
Sometimes, you know,
through the conditions,
we address the
concerns.
It is about promoting
the licensing objectives
of prevention of
public nuisance in
particular.
And it is actually a
preventative
system than other
as opposed to
something to address
the concerns that
already exist.
Thank you.
I have a couple of
questions.
So just first one
to do with the
layout and potential
shoplifting of
alcohol.
So has a due
consideration been
paid to late at
night, you know,
people running in to
steal quantities of
alcohol, steal
things?
So making sure,
has that been
considered and how the
new fit out of this
premises has been
designed?
Because I know you
have to have three
people on past 12
o'clock and then
obviously there's
vulnerability in
terms of theft and
so forth, but
especially in terms
of high value items
such as alcohol.
Yeah, thank you,
Chair.
I think as you can
see from the plan,
as you walk into
the store,
alcohol are behind
the till on the
right and then
also rear of the
area.
So it is very
difficult for people
to take and run
away, but because
the person who is
standing at the
kill, they will be
closely monitoring
that.
So that is kind
of a threat as well.
But staff as well,
you know, they are
well-experienced
person who will be
operating the
premises, so
wherever they need
it, they will have
extra staff.
And the other
things like CCTV
systems and things
like that will
prevent the
CCTV system,
event, yeah, in
terms of
OK, thank you for
that.
And the other
question was, I
don't see it listed
and maybe I'm having
a look at my
documents, so excuse
me that you see my
eyes down, but it's
just about where the
display of spirits
are.
Are those behind the
till?
Are those on the
shelf?
Behind the till
chair, absolutely.
It won't be outside,
it will be behind
the till.
OK, thank you.
Councillors, are
there any other
questions for the
applicant?
Great, thank you.
I'll save my
spiel because I don't
want to get told off
by Mr Flowers.
Are there any other
questions or
clarification or
anything that has
been stated?
As a reminder, the
representations will
have a chance to
address the committee
and this should only
be where you'd like
clarification on
something stated by
the applicant.
No?
I know that we
have Sir
Charlene here, he's
not a representative
as he's under the
umbrella of the
applicant, I just
want to check.
Yep, under the
umbrella of the
applicant, yes.
Mr Flowers?
I was just going to
confirm that he's
part of the
applicant chair.
OK, thank you.
So we do not have
any further
representations this
evening in person,
but we do have
that which was
submitted as part
of the licensing
bundle.
I will now invite
the applicant to
provide any
closing remarks
which they would
like to submit.
This should be
limited to a
maximum of two
minutes.
I will first,
we don't have
anybody making
representations, so
the applicant,
please, if you
would be so kind
as to make your
final representations
within two minutes.
Thank you.
Thank you, Chair, and
what I wanted to
say is we have
agreed the
conditions with
the authorities.
There is no
other representation
outstanding from any
other responsible
authorities,
considering that
also the
objections are
mostly related to
a need as
opposed to
really pinpointing
the licensing
objectives.
So, in any
case, we have
agreed a number
of conditions
and we also
put part of the
application number
of conditions
to part of the
operating schedule
to promote the
licensing objectives.
Concerning all of
those, Chair, I
think we would
like you to
invite you to
look at this
application very
positively.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for
your last
representation.
So, this
concludes the
second
applications
discussion at
the public
part of the
meeting.
Now we have
considered both
applications, we
will retire to a
separate meeting
room to make the
decisions where
only members of
the licensing
subcommittee, the
Democratic Services
Officer and Legal
Advisor will be
present.
The decisions,
reasons and any
legal guidance given
during the
subcommittee's
discussion that
has informed their
decision will be
confirmed in writing
together with
information about
any rights of
appeal within five
working days.
We thank you for
your attendance and
we will now proceed
to go into the
other room.