Transcript

the team notes the minutes from the meeting. Fantastic. Awesome. In that case, I will go ahead and sign those officially, and then we can continue. So the subcommittee is going to consider a review of the license held by Arnott Close, Post Office 6 Arnott Close, London SE 28 8BG. I know I've asked if anyone's here. Can I now quickly check who we have from the applicant's sides? Can I check Jatandra Patel? Cool. Thank you. Hitesh Kumar Patel, EPS Officer. Good. I can see his name there. Hopefully he's there. Jacqueline Nanteza. Hello, Chair. It's John McGurr here, Public Health. Jacqueline is trying to join the meeting and is having IT issues, but she hopefully will be with us shortly. Thanks, John. Can I confirm that you might take her place in case she's not able to? My colleague Ishwak is also here, but I am here as well. So if needed, I can speak for Public Health. Thank you, John. Ishwak Ahmed. I'm here. Thank you. Thank you. And Sam Bob, Officer Sam Bob, Police. Thank you. Good evening, Sam. Thank you for joining us. And thank you everyone for joining. So I can confirm that everyone is here apart from Jacqueline Nanteza, and hopefully she will be able to join shortly and has the details to do so. In that case, I will now hand over to the licensing officers, like Steve, to provide a brief summary of the report and give her just an overlay of the situation I had. Over to you, Steve. Thank you, Chair. And as you've already said, we're here for a review hearing for the Honour Closed Post Office in Thamesmead. The Chair and the Committee are quite well aware of the powers and what they can do in this matter about resolving the issue. And the grounds of the application. The review seeks the revocation of the premises licence or, failing that, would like to see the designated premises supervisor replaced. The hours authorised for the sale of alcohol for consumption off the premises amended to Monday to Sunday between 1,200 hours and 2,100 hours each day. And the temporary suspension of the premises licence to facilitate proper staff training on the necessary control measures on the sale of age-restricted products. That's not just alcohol. And as per the details contained within Appendix A of the agenda bundle, but training standards are aware that other options are open to the committee. The grounds for the review were more fully described within that review application, but are driven by an incident on the 20th of August last year, when a nicotine-based age-restricted vape product was sold to a person under the age of 18. Following that sale, the electronic point of sale of the EPOS records for the premises were examined, which appeared to show that more than 380 sales of alcohol had taken place outside the hours authorised by the current premises licence between 6 June last year and 21 August last year. And a copy of those records is exhibited in Appendix B by the training standards team. We, as the licensing team, received the application on the 29th of November, and the last takes for representations was the 26th of December. The application has been correctly advertised, displayed notices outside the premises. There's a notice in the Town Hall Notice Board, and it's been advertised on the Council's website. The current licence was granted by a licensing subcommittee in December 2016, and authorises the sale of supplied alcohol for consumption off the premises, Monday to Sunday, currently from 0900 hours until 2100 hours each day, and a copy of that licence is attached in Appendix C of your agenda bundle. The premises has historically operated as a post office, off-licence and grocery shop, and selling a variety of household goods and a post office, and it's situated in a parade of shops in between two other off-licence premises within a small square at Arnord Close in Thameslead North. Although the premises is within a small close containing several other shops, properties surrounding it in the wider area are mainly residential, and there are youth facilities and churches located to the rear of the premises, and in Arnord Close itself. There are also a number of schools, both primary and secondary, within a relatively short distance, Windrush Primary School being the closest, about 50 metres away. Although there are those three off-licences in that small area, it's not part of a cumulative impact zone, and maps of the area you'll see in Appendix D to your bundle. We did get two representations supporting the application, one from Public Health and one from the Police Licensing Team, and they are in Appendix E and Appendix F, respectively, of the application. That's about to sum it up. I do have a short PowerPoint, unless there are any questions from anybody on the committee that need answering. Thank you, Steve. I'm very grateful for that summary. Members, can I firstly refer to you? Is there any questions from that summary that you'd like to ask to Steve? None from me. Council of Byrd, I presume that's also the case for you. No worries. All right, thank you for that, Steve. A very helpful summary. In that case, I will now give the applicant an opportunity. Sorry, Chair, would the licensing officer like to share his presentation? Only if I can manage to share my screen, Daniel. I'll give you that. I think everybody can see that. It's viewable, yes. Excellent. I've scrolled a few bits. That's just a flat map showing you where the premises are. And that'll be an aerial map showing you where the premises are. It doesn't really put into too much perspective for you if you don't know the area. But essentially, if you carry on down Bentham Road, you'll end up in Morrison's. And the shop's found that way. And if you go back down Carlisle Road, which is this road here, you'll end up in Abbeywood. That's a view from Bentham Road, which is the one that ran across the top or the bottom of the previous one. The post office obviously is in the middle. The shops either side are both off-licenses, and that's a Chinese takeaway. And then you're looking at that from, obviously that's the parade of shops. We're just looking from Tickness Avenue, and the underpass leads you eventually to Windrush Primary School. And you'll see some of the residential premises further across. The side view of the post office, just there, is the notice displayed advertising the review. You'll see it in closer detail there, and that's the post office in front of you. You stand outside and look west towards Tickness Avenue. Again, there's more residential premises, as there are going east towards Carlisle Road. And as there are directly opposite, I think it's Byron Close that becomes part of the other side of Bentham Road. As you walk in the door, you'll see this gent is behind the counter to serve on all the stuff that's here. That's the post office counter just at the top. And if we come back from the post office counter, this is all alongside the serving counter. And that's what it would look like towards the front door. And you'll see that the alcohol is stored here, which is kind of not in the vision of whoever's behind the counter, stuff on the bottom. As you'll see from there, the alcohol display goes across. Blue Notice advertising the review posted outside, which you'll see again from there. And one on the town hall. There's one on the website as well, but I haven't got a picture of that. And I think, yeah, that was the end of that. I hope that was helpful. If anybody again has got any questions, please fire away. Thank you, Steve. One, perhaps one point and question from me relates to one of the pictures inside the post office. And can I confirm because there was an inspection carried out and it found that there was no opaque covering of the display chiller containing bottles of beer from what I read as well. Let me go back a few. I've got to go back quite a few minutes. Oh, no. This would be where the curtain would come down. Obviously, this is done during opening hours. So there's nothing there at the time. I couldn't tell you when trading standards went, it was obviously opening hours as well. So I can't tell you that there wasn't a screen in the way. Yeah. Okay. That was pretty much just okay. Very good. Thank you, Steve. I think we can move on. At this junction, I'm going to invite public health who are the applicants to present their application and submission. So I'll pass over to them. Thank you, Chair. I will ask Jacqueline just to read to the report that we submitted, the representation. So I'll pass over to Jacqueline Nanteza. Thank you, John. Hello. I'm Jacqueline Nanteza, the public health representative. And in the first case, we agree with trading standards in the proposed condition regarding the revocation of the licence at Arnott closed post office due to the sustained levels of breaches and failings. However, should the subcommittee be minded to accept the retention of the current licence, public health concur with trading standards that the following conditions be applied. I believe these were read out earlier, but these include the removal of the current DPS from the licence, change of hours for the licence from 9am to 9pm to the new hours of 12pm to 9pm, and the temporary suspension of the current licence in order to facilitate staff training on necessary control measures alongside implementation of any other conditions or restrictions which the committee might wish to apply. Thank you very much, Jacqueline. Members, do we have any questions regarding that? Very good. Thank you, Roger. No questions from me, always very clear. And thank you for the information you provided in advance to review. I will now turn to the other persons who have made a representation. I have Jitandra Patel and Hitash Kumar Patel, the licence holder and DPS. Just before I invite you to speak, I should flag that you have 10 minutes to provide your submission. Sorry, Chair. We also have PC Sam Bob here. I believe he was speaking in support of the review. Oh, very good. Okay, Sam, over to you. Sorry. Okay, thank you. Good evening, everyone. Good evening, Chair. It's just to support the training standards application that they've brought the review to them to be heard. Just from the policing side of matters, there's been a few incidents over many years of antisocial behaviour in the area, which they haven't said it was down specifically to the post office, but there's been an issue in the area, stating that there have been local drug dealers around intimidating, some staff hanging around during the winter, and potentially some dealing with inside of the shops, one of those including the post office. And just to add to that, more recent communication with the Safe Neighbourhood teams is showing that there's been like still a hub for street drinkers, local gangs to loiter, committing any social behaviour, drug dealing, and you even use occasional robbery. So as I said, it can't be necessarily attributed just to the post office, but that area generally. And so I wish to add that on to my representations letter that I hope hopefully it's been read from the appendix. Thank you, Sam. It has been read and noted appendix E and F, I beg your pardon. So thank you for that. Is there any question from the members regarding the police's report? Thank you, Sam. Just briefly. Thank you, Sam. Thank you, everybody for the presentations. Was I hearing correctly, Sam, that the gangs and dealing is exacerbated in that area? I mean, I'm speaking as someone who is a head teacher just down the road from where we're looking at Linton Mead, which is around Morrison's. So, I mean, I'm very conscious of the stress and the strains of the community around that area to do with gangs. And so are we saying, is there an inference that that it's exacerbated by by the shops or the exacerbated in that area? Is that what you're saying? And yes, you know, necessarily that particular shop. But the people that are doing these activities, anti-judge behaviour, they may be praying or intimidating staff to maybe allow some activity to be conducted inside of them, including the post office, and then carry on with their activities outside, such as street drinking and dealing. So, yeah, maybe the communication, the concentration of those premises in the area has led to those activities happening, which is not very good for the community and those working in the premises. Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you, Sam. Thanks, Sam. I guess perhaps one other point or question is related, I mean, the key concern we have is around protection of children from harm in that area. And from what was, from reading in the report, along with what you've just highlighted today, you know, that's definitely not being helped, perhaps, by the current licence holder. Yeah, and then, you know, that may lead on to, obviously, you know, restrictions or tightening of things or things having to change. So that those that want to carry out those sorts of activities are deterred from carrying them on. Understood. Awesome. I think I will move on. But thank you very much, Sam, for that helpful submission summary. Grateful again for the letter as well. I will now turn to the persons who are on the representation, Yatandra Patel and Hitesh Patel, just to give you a heads up that you have 15 minutes. There's a time limit to lay out, you know, whatever points you want to make. But if you don't feel like you need to go beyond 15 minutes, there is no pressure to do so. So the floor is now yours. I think you're on mute, Yatandra. Now, can you hear me? We can hear you. Yeah, hi. I'm Yatandra Patel, licence holder of number six, honor closed post office. Yes, there is a mistake of our staff, they sold the vape to the underage children. But it was a, like, mistake. It happened. But we are very careful to run the business in honor closed post office. This was happened last. We have been passed through the lottery terminal as well. We have a certificate. We don't sell lottery even underage children. But that is occasionally, I don't know why this has happened. It was a summery day and one of the staff and it was busy time. That's how we make a mistake. So that was, we are apologised. We are not making any mistake again into the premises. So this is humble request. If you cannot cut our hours from 9 to 12, if you can cut one hours to 10 to 9, it will help us to run the business there and survive. Otherwise, it's very difficult to run the business and competition with the two on the next door and two shops nearby. So that is only one request we are making. Don't cut our hours like 12 to 9. If we can cut one hours, give us a, that's fine. But we request to give us a 10 to 9 as an offline server. And next time we have to be very careful because after that we train all our staff and took the personal licences who is working there. Thank you. Mr. Hitesh Patel, did you want to add anything to what's already been said? Yes, as Mr. Patel, thank you for giving me a chance on this. Can you hear me? As Mr. Patel said that one of these has been happened not to release the hours and that's fine. And going for onwards, all the staff have been given full training again. And we have tried to get personal licence for everybody from now on. And most of the guys have got the personal licence now. So they are aware of the activities, what to do, how to prevent of this damage to the community and the business too. And we'll try our best not to happen this again in the future. All right. Thank you, Mr. Hitesh Patel. Can I, so I think Jitendra, you've, you've spoken and Mr. Hitesh Patel, you've spoken as well. I will now ask if any of the members have questions on that. Okay, I'll start with the councillor Roger Tester and then councillor Linda Burd can come in. Thank you, Chair. Yeah. Mr. Patel, Jitendra, what you've described as basically an accident. There was an underage sale made of a vape on one occasion, which was, you know, an accidental mistake. But obviously that has uncovered 390 cells of alcohol outside of ours. Are they also one off accidental mistakes? Because it seemed, it looks like there were sort of five of those a day during that period. So, you know, I imagine what just one vape sale could be, could have been an accidental mistake, but I don't see all the others could have been. Could you, do you have anything to say on that, please? No, that is absolutely right. But before I thought the, the staff is not trained during the, like, you know, when they open the shop, they say our license is start. And that's how we already inform them, our license start nine o'clock. But once they open the shop, they say, okay, we allow to sell the alcohol, even though we can cover the the beer fridge, because we have a blind to cover the beer fridge. But that's how they make a mistake. And after that, we find out, why don't, why are you doing it? But after that, I just take that off license away from the premises straight away. So that is, yes, I can consider that, okay. But now and now, from now on, we won't allow any staff to do the sales before our licensing hours. And you do understand that it was your responsibility to have done that before things happened? After that, yes, I do, because I didn't inform them that our licenses start from nine o'clock, instead of when they open the shops. Okay, thank you. Thank you very much, Chair. And thank you, Jitendra and Hitesh for your presentation. Part of my question was the same as Councillor Testers. But I wanted to ask, Jitendra, have you heard of Challenge 25? And what's your understanding on this? Yes, I do heard Challenge 25. And we had a little course for Challenge 25, and a little bit of other changes into the council. And I already informed all my staff that Challenge 25, make sure the person who is appearing under 25, you have to ask the ID. It doesn't matter whether they got a beard or anything, but if it looks like under 25, don't judge under 18, you have to judge under 25. So, Mr Patel, you're saying if it looks as though someone is under 25? You have to ask the ID. I know the idea. The actual policy strategy is to actually ask for identification from people. And as far as I understand it, that was never asked for. They do ask for Challenge, but what happened now? As far as the police officer said, there is a lot of kids hanging around outside the shops. Once we said, we don't want to give you that one, then what they do, they take the bottle from the fridge and throw it on the staff. And that has happened a couple of times, but we still banned them. They don't come in, but they send someone else. And there is a gang coming down there. So, we always ask or challenge 25 whenever they look like under 25. Yes, thank you. And I understand. I do understand the difficulties and the stresses. But nonetheless, that is the law. We are following that, ma'am. We always follow that. Until now, we never do this, but this has happened only once. Otherwise, we are always careful to compliance under the law and run the business. Because this is our bread and butter. If we don't run the business, we are like how we can eat. Thank you very much. Thank you. Okay. I have a few questions on my end as well for you, Jitendra and Hitesh. Yeah. And perhaps I'll just highlight that, you know, you have a duty to maintain the law as well as run a business. The first question relates to Hitesh. You made the point that your staff have now received training. What is the mode of that training? And just give me a little bit of understanding of what that entails. The mode was that since we had this inspection before, even in the last inspection before a few months back, or maybe a few, less than a year, we had a couple of inspections and we have been succeeding those inspections for the underage sales, even no matter, it was 7.30, it was all success. It's not that all the time we have passed, but as this has happened and when we see all this, I don't know how the, maybe one of the staff would have done that. We don't know. But since we see that all these records, what was produced, what we decided to bring more strong, robust measures within the premises, we decided better they go on a proper professional training so that they are more well trained on all the topics, underage, like Challenge 25, as the Mrs. Linda Budd said that what is Challenge 25, plus all other like anti-social behavior, what are the precautions, everything. So instead of teaching individually, we decided to get them everything, bring on the training and go on a professional training so that once they know what are the consequences of selling the underage products to the underage people and make them more awareness, bring them more awareness within themselves and not to bring damage to the business response and the community as well. Okay. And how much staff do you have, just out of curiosity? Three. Three. Three. Okay. Yeah. All right. The second question I have is regarding, yeah, specifically on the refusal log. It doesn't look like you've been updating that and there's quite a significant amount of times it's not been updated. Why? Because I couldn't find a refusal book after once it's packed up. So on that one, I thought the refugee is already logging into the my system. So that's why I didn't order another one afterwards. Okay. So you, you lost it and you couldn't find it. And once it's, it's already the fuller, then after next one, I supposed to order it. But after that, I find out that electronically already refuses inside my system. So I said, let it be right now. Okay. All right. And do you both go to the sites? Or how often do you spend? Once a week, once a week or twice a week I go. Nitesh, what about you? Me too. Twice, like sometimes once a week or sometimes twice a week. Okay. Right, cool. Okay. Members, do you have any other questions? Good. Well, thank you both to Jitendra and Hitesh for your submissions. We're grateful. And obviously, we feel we've heard from all the parties adequately. Um, so if anyone else wants to add any comments, this is a good opportunity to do so. Steve, Sam, do you think you would like to say this one? Public health. Go ahead, John. Hello. Thank you, Chair. I think it's just worth noting the harms impacts for this particular area in relation to any consideration for what should happen. And when we look at the relevant scores which are shown in the evidence bundle in the harms dashboard, we can see a number of factors that stand out. Alcohol-specific mortality rates for this LSOA area, this postcode area, is 20% higher than the borough average. And anti-social behaviour rates for the same area are six times higher than the borough average. So I think any consideration about what can happen to mitigate that is is very important, has a lot of weight attached to it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, John. Yes, I did see that in Appendix E, page 80 for members to note. My view on that would be that the Jatandra and Hitesh would have some inclination of the recent issues in the area and should have taken a greater care on that. And that doesn't look like it's happened. So thank you for flagging that, John. Is anybody else keen to add anything? Yes. Not yet. In that case, I just flagged this constituency hearing. After the meeting, the sub-community myself, Councillor Byrd and Councillor Rochester will have a discussion with the legal advisor and the committee clerk. And the decision notice will be sent out within five working days. There is an opportunity to appeal if the decision is one you wish to appeal. So if you wish to do so, that can be done within 21 days of being notified. I can see your hand is rated, Mr. Patel, Hitesh Patel. Go ahead. Mr. Joshua, regardless about this cell, I would like to make a point on the thing that since we are having this business from 2007 in Thamesmaid and having this opportunity to serve the local community from the post office initially, I still remember the days, I'm just coming to the point of the anti-social behavior and the things in the area. The point I would like to make out is that being a part of the community in 2007 to 2012, I myself personally and Mr. Jitanga as well, we have worked so hard with local police and we have been to many courts even in the past to remove this disturbance from the area. We have supported a lot even to the council. Even Mr. Steve knows about this, that how much we have been helpful to the like whosoever comes for the seek the help, even police or councillors or the council people. We have tried our best to give to the community. That's what I would like to put some input from our end. That's noted, Mr. Patel. Thank you for that. I also am aware that Jitanga is a licensee holder for Londis. So we're not unaware of his active contribution in the community. But it also is a word of warning to Mr. Patel to ensure that he operates his businesses within the borough with the utmost degree of integrity and security and safety for the good of the communities. If that is all, I will consider this session closed, this hearing closed and I want to thank everyone for joining today. I'm very grateful to Sam Bob from the Greenwich Police and Steve McNally from the licensing team and as well as the public health officers. Thank you all and have a very good evening. Thank you very much.