Transcript

That's it. So good evening everyone and welcome to this meeting of the London Borough of Newham's Health and Adult Social Care Scrutiny. Can everyone present virtually hear me? If you can, please raise your hand. I can see some hands raising. This evening's meeting is being held at Newham Town Hall in East Ham. Members unable to attend in person at this location are able to join remotely, however, they will not be able to vote and their attendance will not be initially recorded. Their virtual attendance will be noted in the minutes. I'd also like to welcome any of the participants who are watching on YouTube. With regards to meeting etiquette, participants in the meeting please can ask that you indicate you wish to speak either by raising your physical hand or by using your hands up symbol dashboard. On this point, may I remind those attending as partners or witnesses to introduce themselves when speaking for the first first time in terms of name, role and organisation and those watching the meeting. This meeting of the London Borough of Newham's Health and Adult Social Care Commission on the 29th of April 2025 is now called to order. So firstly, can I get the committee to introduce themselves and we've got a huge turnout tonight which is fantastic. And at this point, I want to welcome Councillor Shaban. Oh, sorry. Councillor Shaban. Oh, sorry. Councillor from Bolin. Councillor from Bolin. Norbello. Councillor from Liklilford Ward. Moving to the front, Councillor Laguda. Councillor Laguda from Plaston North. Councillor Jane Lofthouse from Plaston South. Councillor Danny Keeling, Stratford Olympic Park. Councillor Pellhikawanya, Canindown South. And at this point, I want to welcome Councillor Shaban. Oh, sorry. Councillor Shaban Hamid, Kaintair North. I was already... Sorry? I already made my presentation. And Councillor Mohamed is joining as an observer in advance of being formally ratified as a member of this commission by the overview and scrutiny at their next meeting. I'd also like to offer a warm welcome to Cabinet portfolio leads, Council officers and partners here this evening who will introduce as the meeting progresses. Item number two is apologies for absence. Have I received any apologies for absence? Okay. No apologies have been received that I'm aware of. So the lack of apologies of absence from members will be noted. Item three, declarations of interest. Now for the leisure item, I feel I should require a mild interest in terms of being a member of the private gym on the Barking Road that's referred to in the papers. Are there any declarations of interest from members of the committee for any items on the interest? No. No. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Just one case of a membership card of whatever that's called. I'm a member of the New Malaysia Centre. Okay, we've recorded that. Anyone else want to record an interest? So declarations of interest will be noted. Item four, minutes. The next items to agree, the minutes meeting held on 28 January 28, 2025. Does anyone have any amendments to these? Okay. In all cases, can I move that the minutes of the health and adult social care scrutiny committee meeting on January 20, 25, be agreed as a correct record? Do I have a seconder? Councillor Keeling. Thank you. It's noted that the minutes are agreed. In terms of the management of the business of the meeting, as chair and with the committee's permission, I'd like to confirm that the agenda items will be taken in the current agenda order. I plan to allot around 30 minutes to our update on emerging matters. It's around 40 minutes apiece to our two substantive items relating to community mental health services through the lens of the Barnsley Street pilot, and the second part of our look at Newham's leisure centres services, although I feel might end up being slightly longer. So we start with item five, which is the update on emerging matters. So the purpose of this item is to offer an open space for members to raise questions around the impact of national developments upon services in our borough, or to receive updates on ongoing and emerging issues and strategies within our Newham health and care system. For this section of the meeting, I'd like to welcome Councillor Neill Wilson, Cabinet Member for Health and Adult Social Care, Councillor Mumtaz Khan, Cabinet Member for Health and Adult Social Care, Jason Strelitz, Corporate Director for Adults and Health. On the Zoom tonight, we have Joe Fraser-Wise, Newham Director of Partnership, Impact and Delivery. And Julie Powell as well as a lead for in terms of the provision of Health Watch Newham. I'm just looking to see whether we've got anyone else for this item. Do we have anyone else present for this section of the meeting? I'm not seeing any hands up, so I'm assuming we don't. When we last met, we had a very good discussion about the borough's preparation for a future CQC inspection and how that linked to an external peer review of specific areas of Newham social care arrangements carried out in June 2024. The big development since January has been the commencement of our first CQC review of adult social care services. We know this is a process that will take a number of months to conclude and the results are unlikely to be released last summer. But I'd like to invite an update from Councillor Wilson as Newham's relevant Cabinet Lead for this area and Jason Strelitz as Director. Thanks very much, Chair. So, yes, I'm Councillor Neil Wilson. I'm the Cabinet Lead for Health and Adult Social Care. And I think we mentioned and members will be aware if they were able to attend the all members briefing that we're on a timescale that's not of our making, obviously. But unlike the Ofsted inspection regime that people are more possibly familiar with, we get a notice. We've submitted a load of documents, basically. I think we talked about those last time, Chair. But we're in the process of waiting and the wait will be presumably and I'm looking towards Jason. We're just this is a guesstimate, but I'm on public record. We're on a public meeting. So we're saying possibly before the summer recess, June, July. But to reassure this committee and obviously the chair will be an interviewee if the and I better put the caveat if you were to be in this position last next municipal year, like if I'm in his position in a municipal year. It's it's custom and practice to interview both the chair of the scrutiny commission, because obviously what is throughout the process is a triangulation. In other words, members who set strategy, that's Mumtaz and I, the mayor and cabinet, are interviewed along with the chief executive as well as Jason as the head of service. But in the context of this committee, scrutiny will be rightly involved through your and the whole point of it is meant to be a triangulation process where our residents, which we do this for anyway, are part and parcel of how this service provision impacts on them. So there's a triangulation process. Just to take one brief example before I turn over to Jason for more sort of an officer viewpoint. I want to reassure this committee that I am keeping, and I hope the chair would agree, as informed as possible. We have had some internal inspections since which Jason will allude to. I sit on a project improvement board with an outside, well respected person who started a professional career in this borough, but is nationally known. So we have an independent chair of a practice improvement board. The things to guard against are to say, what grading? We fought as a local government association cross party against single words, but I'm afraid we've still got words like excellent, good, needs improvement or or coming out of a grading system. So I don't want to be pushed on where we're going to end up. It's a few points difference. I have been, as I said last time to other colleagues and other London boroughs. The situation is variable. It's a new regime. They haven't done it for 10 years. They're learning as they go along. But I hope that gives enough reassurance that you will be kept informed and obviously in a new municipal cycle. Hopefully there'll be another chance to meet the committee. But if not, I think we could arrange some sort of, you know, special meeting, because I think that's exactly what I'm sorry. Jason's corrected me. He's absolutely right. It's a practice improvement board. It's very good to have techniques where we can communicate that. It's not a project improvement board. That's for something else that I've been involved with. Practice and the key word there, Jason's absolutely correct, is on practice. It's frontline practice that they're looking at. They will interview the very people who deal with not just elderly people. There seems to be this stereotypical view that adult social care just looks after a few old people in a few homes. We deal with a whole load of issues. And remember, we take a third of the budget. So it's right that we should be certainly examined. I don't think we're being complacent, but I hope that's enough just now. That's fantastic. Do I have any questions from members of the committee before I move on? Still on the emergency matters. Still on this? CQC. On the CQC. I'm not on CQC. Okay. At the last meeting of the committee, a question was asked about the cessation to older residents. Now, my understanding is that a consultation is being carried out since our meeting. And that the the officers are working with the 38 elderly people affected to find services that they would be happy to sit into. And that seems to be going very well. But would you like to give a few brief comments? Yeah, I think we could send through some slides. I don't know whether they've reached the committee yet, but there is always a danger. And I will say this on public record that if I catch if I sneeze at Forest Gate by the time I've reached Upton Park, I've got a cold. And by the time I'm in my house, I got flu is an exaggeration tendency. And I've known this since I've been in Newham politics. We are not minimising the effect of change. Change is always difficult for people. They used to go into chargeable lane for primarily day opportunities. The group which seems to have been really misunderstood is the elders provision there, which affects 37. And I think I shared this with the chair that at the adults co-production forum recently in Canningtown Library, somebody got the misinterpretation that we were cutting all our services to elderly people. This is about the day opportunities. It's about trying to make people less socially isolated, involved in their communities. And the nearer they are to those communities that they live in, the better, in our opinion. But we have got some issues about the capacity of chargeable lane. We have got some issues about the service delivery. And it's about how we make certain that those 37 people, all of whom I think we're correct in saying, Jason, have been consulted. And it's about tailoring their needs rather than one size fits all just for two hours a week for chargeable lane. I'm stereotyping. I think it's more provision than that. But I think the danger is that when we do change, we did put this in our medium term financial strategy that we were looking at day opportunities. Because it's a bit like if I can take the parallel. When I was deputy chair of education, people thought we were cutting all special needs transport. No, we were trying to make special needs transport for SEND children far more effective. So they weren't spending two and a half hours on a on a bus for a shortened school day. It's a bit similar to that. If we want our communities to thrive, to be independent, to be less socially isolated, it's not always about money. And this is not always about money. This is about actually trying to make certain that if we're genuine about neighborhood delivery, we can use our community spaces like libraries, like community centers, like other available buildings to give day opportunities. And that is in the slide pack, I hope that's been seen. So I want to reassure people. But I think if I'll leave it there, if there's anything else, Jason, I don't know. We can answer any questions. Yeah, I think the only thing I'd say is, you know, it's not so much consult. I mean, it's literally individual conversations, find the right, the right. It's not a kind of broad consultation. It is individual conversations with affected residents so that we can find the right solution to meet for them. But nobody's been left hanging. No one's been left hanging at all. Getting the chance to try out different services. That's it. Something appropriate. Has anyone got any questions? No. Jane? Put the hand. She was tempted. Moving on to items at a system level. Back in March, the government announced an intention to abolish NHS England to return direct control of the NHS to the Department of Health and its Secretary of State. A number of articles in the press have implied that job losses might extend to integrated care systems at a regional level. in that system. Along with, I'll get togeht. I'll get to that now. Absolutely. We're welcome. Jo Fraser-Wise is, Director of Delivery for new and within our wider Northeast London integrated care system. Are there any updates for the committee on any known implications to our integrated care boards? And the wider health and care system, please. Hi, yes. Thank you, Chair. So it is a confirmed announcement. So it was announced that all integrated care boards will need to look at reducing their producing their running costs by 50% by the end of this calendar year. We are still awaiting further guidance around what that needs to look like. They are producing a model by which ICBs will then follow that in terms of their own proposals. That was due in April. And it's obviously not coming in April. So yes, so it is a very difficult position for all of us within the ICB. But there isn't anything else further to say at this point. So just so the committee gets an idea of the impact this is likely to have, when our integrated care system was set up, wasn't it the case that you were asked by the previous government to cut your operating costs by a third? So we have already made, yes, 30% reductions in running costs. So this is an addition to that. So that leaves your resources that, excuse my sort of rather rusty maths, you're now down to about a sixth of your original resource? Well, we don't know as yet because we're still waiting the guidance around exactly what this further reduction needs to look like. OK, so this sounds like something the committee needs to keep tabs on in terms of its impact on the wider system and on our place-based services in Newham as we move forward. So we'll definitely be doing that. But thanks for that update. Sorry, just for information. I'm representing the mayor and myself in my cabinet role at a meeting, including Wes Streaking, not in his local capacity as an MP, but obviously the North East London patch does include Hilford North as well, because it comes under the Redbridge. Well, we are being updated on financial implications. Sadly, I'm afraid that's next week, but it doesn't look good news. And I think it's important to stress that there'll be some implications, not only just for the people affected, because I'm, you know, on the integrated care part trip board. It was, it's the way it's been handled at one level from the initial announcement. And there's still, I hope, Joe, your degree, still got a lot of uncertainty. The only thing is we know that the budgets are tight, but, you know, it's about how does that land or both the place-based, sorry, that's the borough level. I don't know why they have to say place. I would just say borough partnerships, but they call them place because it could be county councils, but the borough provision and also for the supporting services that we've relied on around it. Okay. In that case, I'll be suggesting that we definitely have that in the mix for our future work programme. Councillor Bibuda, do you have a question? Yes, I just wanted to find out what impact it will have on service provision. I don't think we know that yet, because as Joe was just saying, the final decision has not been signed up and we think that's going to trickle down, but that is something that we need to monitor going on. Yeah. Councillor Keeling, you had an item that you wanted to bring up. Yes. The recent terribly ill-informed and well-lobbied court ruling on what a woman is recently. I would like to know what implications this may have to our services. And do we believe that this will have a massive rise in mental health cases in our borough, as we have awards for the highest amount of trans people in the country? Can I take that first? Yes. And then I think there's more implications for the NHS provision in some respects, but I'll hand over to Jason and there's Michael in the room as well from Elle. Yeah. I mean, if we're talking about an integrated system, we predicate our administration, rightly I think, because of the majority group has made a commitment to LGBTQIA in its fullness of definitions. I would argue that our provision and its training, and sometimes we've been very clear that the training has not been suitable or appropriate. But I know that when I was a governor on Elft at the East London Foundation, so I try not to use initials, and I think I segued into a bit last night, and the chair has been a governor there. They've had some really sort of innovative work engaging, not just about the trans community, but about the whole identity issues. There are some really deep seated issues around how the health provision may tackle this. And also, I think, around identification in terms of provision in wards. But I think it's too early to say. I think that doesn't stop us, though, campaigning, as I think the mayor indicated last time, to make certain that that inclusivity that we're rather proud of, not just in an LGBTQA, but education and the whole philosophy, that we actually make certain. I noticed, and I think it's relevant for this committee, that the BMA have criticised it as being ill-informed and not particularly scientifically driven or even medically driven. But it is also, I believe, from this administration, it's about our values driven approach to individuality. We can't say that we're a person centred administration, then ignore a very important part of our community. But I don't know whether Jason has got any more updates, because it was only very recently. I don't think so. I think that the NHS may want to come. We sadly don't have anyone from the hospital tonight. Oh, right. Because it's a hospital. Yes, we will be reaching out to them outside of the meeting. Oh, Michael. Sorry, can I can I come in because I have actually spoken with Simon Ashton as well. So from certainly from a wider NHS point of view, I know that from the ICB point of view, our chief exec Zena Etheridge has made clear that we will continue to treat everyone with kindness and compassion, focused on the needs of the individual. The NHS as a whole is working through the implications of the ruling. And we don't have a timeframe, as you've said, established for that. And when I spoke to Simon, who's the chief executive of NUH, he was also confident that we will, they will continue to manage based on patient need and very much so with that focus on the individual and with respect, kindness and compassion, as I've said. Will that look any different in terms of ward arrangements or is that still? My understanding is from Simon that the majority of wards, all but one ward within NUH are already mixed wards with special provision that allows for same single sex areas and side rooms, etc. But they are all established as mixed wards already. So this sounds like another area that we should be monitoring. Michael, on behalf of East London Foundation Trust, Michael Jones, would you like to come in on this item at all? Is it, as other partners have said, just too early to really understand the impact this is going to have? Yeah, I think there's no immediate change in terms of the impact of trans communities. I don't think we've seen anything yet. Very much. Okay. In terms of members of the commission, are there any other questions for this section of the meeting? So any other issues that you've seen in the press that you'd like to raise with partners in terms of their sort of new impact? Okay, so in that case, I'm going to close this part of the meeting and move on to this evening's first substantive item, which is a look at community mental health services through the Barnsley Street pilot. So at this stage, yes, that's exactly what I was going to say. Can I ask the people involved in this to move forward? Because you're not going to be picked up on the microphone. So if I can just move you down to the front row, that would be fantastic. We definitely want to be able to hear what you're saying. And also, I'm there are another couple of people outside. Aaron, in the side and Marion, I think outside. Outside. What, outside here? Yes. Outside of the chamber, Aaron, not on the Zoom. I think they're just out there. What's the problem? I'm very worried about you, tripping over, racking together. We'll just let people sort of come in and settle for this item. Yeah, I'll tell you. What did you expect? Seriously, help yourself. If I was a poor Aaron running it. I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know what's going to happen. I just try. That's a feeling. Can you walk with your tape to the desk as well? Thank you. I'm okay, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. We're not officially an album. I've had one. Neil, you can get them. I've got grapes. I've got my hand being moved. I've got a little deep fry to start. They might have seed. I can just get members to... I'm really unhealthy food and a health committee. Am I supposed to be sitting down? So, the purpose of this item is to catch up on the development of the Barnsley Street Community Mental Health Service pilot in St. Tower Hamlets, understanding what this will look like, how it's come about, the challenges it's setting out to address, and most importantly, how any learning might inform the improvement of community services in our borough. Peloton was added to the work programme following a presentation from the East London Foundation Trust to the Commission last year. The presentation made reference to a model of mental health developed by the Italian city of Trieste that had seen care provision shift from beds in acute settings to the community and facilities people could access 24-7. This was a change that had saved large amounts of money, but more importantly, it improved satisfaction levels and mental health outcomes amongst service users, as well as reducing stigma. Our Commission were interested to hear whether this success could be replicated in the UK. Inspired by this story, 37 of England's integrated care systems applied to run pilots of similar services. Six have now been signed off, including the one taking place in our own North East London system, covering patients catered to by one primary care network of GP practices in Tower Hamlets. To support today's meeting, our agenda papers include material from the East London Foundation Trust, who deliver mental health services in Tower Hamlets and also Newham. We've been joined by the East London Foundation Trust's Michael Jones, Joint Head of Strategic Planning and Programmes for Mental Health, Learning Disability and Autism. And also by Marian Riley, Deputy Borough Director for Tower Hamlets. To gain a perspective on what day-to-day services look like for users, we'd also like to welcome two of those service users. Jane Fernandez, Cara, I hear you've joined us online. Sort of, yes. Hi Jane. Yes, I'm here. Fantastic. And we also have another service user, Sana Muhammad, I think, or maybe we don't. Was there a second service user who we were? Hello. Oh, sorry. Unfortunately, Sana was due to join us, but she had an emergency. Oh. And at the last minute she was unable to attend and we weren't able to get the message to you. So sorry about that. But we've got Jane here and we've also got George Goward from Look Ahead, who's jointly doing this with us as well. Yes, I was going to say, I also want to give a warm welcome to George and then to Bernadette Keane, CEO of MIND in Tower Hamlets. Taleb Bharti, you're here as Operations Director. And you have Marianne with you? Marianne, yes. Yes, I'm standing in for Bernadette. I'm Head of Service at MIND. Sorry, I wasn't aware of that. Thank you. Are there any other partners still attending who'd like to contribute to this part of the meeting? Okay, so members have read their papers. Michael, would you or Marianne like to kick this item off with some brief opening remarks? Yes. Thanks. And just to give apologies to Bailey Mitchell, who's... Sorry, can you hear me? Sorry. I think the volume... Sit next to him. Yeah, sorry. Thank you, Michael. Move the front bench up a bit. The trouble being at the back is we just don't hear your... Yeah, it doesn't pick it up on... Yeah, the Chamber doesn't echo very much. No. Sorry about that. Hello. Nice to meet you all. So apologies from Bailey Mitchell and Fenno Alton, the Borough Director and Deputy Borough Director at ELF. They both have family emergencies, so they're unable to be here today. So I'll do the best I can to cover off the more operational side of things. So just to say a few words on the report in front of you. So it describes in a kind of high-level way the structure of community mental health teams in Newham, which we've, for the purpose of the report, divided broadly into kind of core teams and more specialist teams. And it touches on the relationship between our community mental health teams and wider strategic objectives, including neighborhood team development with the ICB and our enhanced collaboration with LBN social care teams. The paper highlights some of the challenges facing CMHTs or community mental health teams in Newham, including population increases and expected increases in demand, especially for the over 65s, and some approaches being taken to improve access, experience, and outcomes for all residents, with a focus in particularly on ethnicity and faith. The paper introduces, as the chair has already mentioned, a new and exciting collaboration between ELF and Trieste, which is a model of community mental health care, which is regarded by the WHO as a site of best practice. And that's followed a few visits between ELF in East London and the Trieste team to kind of share learning. And you've already heard about in parallel NHS England bid for seven models of community mental health care, which was successful in and was kind of heavily inspired by the collaboration between ELF and Trieste. And the paper touches on Newham's own kind of journey towards more integrated Trieste-inspired community mental health services, which will start with some of the co-location of some of our teams in the south of the river. But the future kind of pace and scale of that change will depend on a lot of enabling forces outside of our controls, such as states and funding. But we hope to learn from our time that's colleagues on their journey. Marion, would you like to add anything to that? I mean, I can give you a bit of an oversight of the pilot if you'd like to hear that. I mean, I know you've read the paper, but I suppose just to give you some more context of that, it's based around a PCM number one, which serves a population of about 30 to 50,000 people. So just to be clear, just for anyone sort of watching online, we're talking about primary care networks, so that is a cluster of GP practices and the patients who are catered to by those GP practices. Sorry, Marion. No, thank you. I appreciate you stepping in there. And what we want to be able to do is offer a single service of the mental health centre for that for everyone living in that area. And we'll be opening from 8am to 8pm. And it's for booked appointments, unplanned walk ins, one to one chat, therapy groups, activities. It's going to have a really strong community connection there. And it's not just an NHS centre. I think that's the most important thing. Although ELF are providing, Eastland and Foundation Trust are providing the mental health clinical services, we're working in collaboration with the third sector organisations and the service users and residents that live there. So, for example, the site is based at Look Ahead and George is here, who could probably give you a bit more information on that shortly. So they have a lot of experience already in supportive living and support for people's mental health and complex needs. And the idea is that it isn't just an NHS facility. It's open, it's accessible. The people that live there can go when they need to. And I think we've got a really strong continuity of care for people. So rather than having to go off to a hospital for emergency care, what we're offering is crisis interventions, as well as people who might just need support with employment or something. We have we'll have a range of hospitality beds so people can stay overnight. And we're calling them hospitality beds because I think we want to get the ethos right for people, that it's welcoming, that we're there to hear, that we're there to work with people. And I think one of the really important things is that it's co-produced. And I think Jane, who's with us today, will probably talk to that with you to talk to that today, because, you know, right from the very start, it's important that people have been involved in designing those services. And, you know, we've heard of some of the inconsistencies of care that people have experienced in the past and where they feel that there are gaps and things. So I think by bringing people into doubt, they're hoping to address those issues. And I think the other thing is we've always focused heavily on risk, risk avoidance, risk management. And I think that's what comes across a lot, both in the media and, you know, from feedback from patients. And we actually want to move away from risk management and actually put the patient at the heart of actually what makes you feel safe and change that dynamic and work with them and what works for them. And I think that's quite a cultural shift, really, for the mental health services. And I'm sure I'm sure my colleagues can probably speak to that as well while we're here. And we've also got colleagues from the third sector here today as well. And that they're a really strong component of this offer, because I think we want to really create an equal. An equal platform for people to engage with with, you know, knowledge of the area, knowledge of different groups that might live in the area or access the area. Because I think with the NHS, we we have certain areas of specialty, but I think it's what the community in the third sector of the population can bring to that space into those into those treatment areas that we can really work more closely with people. And I'm sure some of my colleagues here will talk to that as well. And we have a range of therapeutic services and offer employment support as well community connectors. And like I said, we'll be working very closely with the GPs as well, because they're all based in that area too. And so we're all really excited about it because it's an opportunity to really do something different, test it and make it right. And I think I think I'll probably pause there if one of any of my comments. That's absolutely fantastic. I mean, we tend to be quite succinct, but I'd really like to draw on a lot of the points that you've made. And if I can turn to Jane Fernandez, I'm really interested in knowing at what points somebody would be reaching out to a service like this. What challenges would they have experienced before this pilot came along? And how far were you involved in terms of shaping it? Yeah, we, in terms of shaping it, we were, me, myself and three other service user carers were involved right from the start. So when the actual expression of interest was being looked at, we were involved from that stage. Once we knew we were going to get the pilot, we were involved in all the work streams around that. So we had, I think, four work streams, workforce, digital, communication and governance. So I was involved in three of those work streams, the workforce, communication and governance. How did you shape it? It's kind of understanding what have you managed to bring to it? Well, for example, in terms of workforce, we were clear as service users and carers that we felt it was important to have peer support workers as part of the workforce. And that wasn't initially in the proposal that was put forward by ELF staff. But as a result of what we had to say, I believe now there's going to be two peer support workers from ELF and there will be peer support workers from some of the other organisations that will be involved. We also said that we felt what was most important was being treated with respect, compassion and understanding, because currently that is very lacking in a lot of services. So that was taken on board in terms of some of the training that will happen and also the job descriptions and the interview questions. We were involved in the interview panels and could ask candidates questions around that. So there was a lot of involvement in that. The other thing that came up also was co-produced notes because a lot of service users felt that currently notes are made about them that are inaccurate and sometimes the language is quite disrespectful. So I think with this pilot we're hoping that any notes that are made about service users will be co-produced so they'll be done together with a member of staff so we know exactly what's going on the record. Yeah, I would say that for me having experienced services, I've been on a ward on two occasions and it wasn't a pleasant experience. I mean staff, I mean staff don't really engage with you. There's very little conversation. It just seems to be you're on the ward and the staff are there to sort of monitor you, make sure you're behaving, make sure you're compliant with medication and there's no real interaction or care for you as a person. And I think that had I had a service like this pilot, then I probably wouldn't have gone into the hospital the second time. I think this pilot is different in that it is seven days a week, you know, people can walk in from eight o'clock in the morning to 8pm in the evening, seven days a week. And that's a massive difference to what's on offer at the moment. I think it will have a slightly more homely feel than a sort of hospital feel that makes people feel comfortable. You know, they'll have all the professionals around them that they need and that staff will actually engage more in this pilot than they do on the ward. So it will be a more sort of intimate kind of connection between staff and service users. So I'm very, very glad to have been involved in this pilot and help shape some of it. And I do feel that as service users and carers, we have been listened to and our views have been taken on board. Thanks, Jane. That's really, really helpful for the Commission to hear. Can I turn to Mind and also to George? I think one of the things that would be helpful to the Commission is just to understand what your respective involvement is. And when people come in off the street, what is this going to look like as a kind of space? So I don't know whether, George, as you are providing the infrastructure, do you want to start with some brief comments on that and then move on to Mind? Yeah, yeah. I'll give an overview of what we're up to. So it's our building. It's a good place to start. So it's, which I think automatically puts it in a slightly different space to a normal NHS service. It's a part of a residential block that we own and so lots of people live there. It's very residential feel to it as opposed to a kind of clinical hospital feel. So immediately when people walk in, they're hopefully not going to feel like they're walking into a hospital. They're going to feel like they're walking into something that feels maybe more akin to a community centre or something like that. In terms of our role specifically, there's lots around the bricks and mortar, but then there's also a role that we play, which is a role that we play in other settings too, which is supporting people with varying ranges of mental health needs. So we employ a lot of support workers and we're very, very used to working very closely with East London Foundation Trust, in Newham as well as Tower Hamlets should be said. And then so we will be providing some of the daytime support around benefit access, around friending, around sometimes supervising medication administration, like real range of different activity that we run. And then probably most relevantly, because I'm sure colleagues from mine will touch on the broader points, we will also be the principal kind of management of the overnight guest beds. So we've got six guest beds, we'll have six guest beds in the block. So again, it's part of the same block, it's not, you know, you're not having to go off into a different building to access them. It's all part of the same site, but we will have staff on site 24-7 overnight, what we call waking nights. And just to be clear, George, when you're talking about these overnight beds, are they in individual rooms or is it going to be a ward type? No, no, no. So, so much more akin to, to what you might have at a hotel. So a kind of a simple, not a plush hotel, but a simple suite. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, so they should feel much more homely, much more like you're staying overnight in a, in a Premier Inn or something like that, without the purple bits. So it's, yeah, not, not, it shouldn't feel clinical. That's one of the big, big aims of the world. And Tala and Marian, how are minds involved? What will your role be? So we're delighted to be one of the Alliance members and the partners on this project. And actually, George, that's really helpful what you've said, but actually I think it goes beyond the infrastructure. Jane, what you just shared about feeling that this service was something that really helped. I'm pretty sure that was around you feeling safe to enter and to remain. And I think for me to enter and remain means that you've seen people around you who resemble you, who speak your language. And I don't particularly mean in dialect, but they get you. And that's the difference between a clinical setting and a community setting. And I think for me, a community setting is diverse season. It's about being able to see people who can hold you. And then we talked about how people then come through again. And that's what we call the ripple effect of the experience you have would enable you to successfully engage fully in that support. We're going to bring the co-production in season. We're going to lead on co-production within this hub space within the Alliance. And we've successfully going through the recruitment at the moment that Marianne's leading on. And Jane, you'll be delighted. We are bringing a peer worker in everyone. A peer worker is someone who has lived experience. And I'm pretty sure everyone in this room has some element of lived experience, meaning that we go through life and you encounter and experience different things. And how you navigate that equips you to then support other people. Yeah, Marianne, did you want to come in? Yeah. So in terms of the co-production role that we lead in is to carry on the work that has already been started, which is consulting with people who are using the servers and people who may use the servers should they need to, to get that, like, and it's not just at the planning stage, but to have it embedded so that the community can see themselves in it and have a voice in it. If we are, you know, getting it wrong, then they can say to us, no, actually, this is not how it is. And they can have that strong voice. We have, we don't just have peer workers. We have, so there are six peer workers in total, two from ELF and four from the Alliance. And there are, there is a particular role for peer workers that is specific to supporting men who are of colour. So, like, focusing on mainly Somali and Bangladeshi men, because they are the ones who aren't accessing services in Tower Hamlets now, despite, you know, the census saying, you know, they are here. So there is that particular role that is specifically for that person, for that group. And also there are, there is an employment service. There is a carers coordinator. There is a employment advice, women's worker. There is, you know, ELOC, which is the local organisation who support people from the LGBTQI community. So it is, it's a project that is looking into who is missing, who is not accessing services at the moment, and actively reaching out, actively engaging, actively saying, what are we not doing? And how can we help? And how can we open the doors? And like, I am, it is a new way of working. And we had our away day last week, and it was just amazing to see clinicians and nurses and, you know, support staff from Look Ahead and, you know, the Alliance coming together and actually saying, how can we start supporting people in the community, have a community feel, have autonomy to their care. So someone can come in and use the hospitality beds. And then if they say over a night and say, no, it's not for me, they can go. They are not sectioned, you know. And there is freedom in that, isn't there? And I think just going back to what Marian said about the Bangladeshi and the Somalian men, and within basically, I would say Abrahamic Facebook, especially within the South Asian community, there's a reason that mental health is not spoken about. There's a reason they don't ask for help. One, it's taboo. It can be seen as an affliction. But actually, I'm using the word contagious and we keep it quiet. So what we're skilled at, I think, and I pride myself in the team that we have, is that we understand the faith element behind it. We can challenge that, which perhaps would be harder for people who are outside of the faith to do. But by having that awareness and that knowledge, you can sit with uncomfortability and you touch one person and they're likely in the PC one area, you know, to go and speak to four others. And so, therefore, we were talking on the way here that within many communities, people are caring without being recognized as carers. Exactly. And so, George, you know, we've got the carers network very much as part of the alliance and part of the offering that we have, because that's fantastic. Because once you have we have people who are suffering with OCD and they never knew that what this stands for. And we've told them it's obsessive compulsive disorder. And suddenly they get a diagnosis and they seek help and they feel validated on what they're going through. So there's something about having that acknowledged and held. So I think you think you've summed up what the offer is absolutely brilliantly. So I'd really like to thank you for that. I'm very aware that I haven't brought the commission in. Jane, you had a question about publicising the pilot and also facetate. Yes. And it does relate quite a lot to what you've just said. So partly it's how will you publicise it when you said you speak to people who will speak to people and so on. So that's one aspect of it. Another aspect is when it's open to everybody, will you be able to cope with the capacity? And the other side of it then is how do you reach out to those with the taboo? How will they know about it and how will you publicise it for want of a better word? I think to answer those questions first, you need to ask one question, which is where are people already gathering? Where do they go first when they need when they need support? And they may go to a faith centre. They may go to a very small community centre that may not have the training to look after them. So it's actually going to those places and saying we are here and staying there and offering, giving the offer there first. And then when you build that trust, then you can only then you can say come with me, we have a bigger service over here. And also just being able to be open to hearing people because when they hear it, when you hear their voice and you listen and you do something about it, then a service becomes not your service. It becomes the community service and the community will protect it and will send their most vulnerable to you. I've got a question about risk because I know when we discussed Trieste Pilot, one of the worries is that initially they've got a completely different approach to risk. But my understanding is if someone were to go into mental health crisis in a centre and maybe throw a kettle of boiling water, that would be seen as being totally their responsibility. Whereas obviously in England, the duty lies with the service to keep staff and the service users safe. And, you know, whenever there's a big story like recently, the Baldo Calipane case that had a lot of publicity, the first question always seems to be where were the services? So I'm just wondering how that gets balanced in what sounds like a beautifully open and homely facility. So I don't know whether, Michael, that's one for you or Marion or? I think Marion's got her hand up. Hi, I'll start if anyone else wants to chip in. I think that's a really valid point. But I think what we realised, Trieste has been up and running for about 30 years. So they've taken a long time to get to where they are. I think from our perspective, we know that we still have people who are unwell and need a hospital admission. You know, and I think we've got very skilled clinicians who can also do those assessments with people. So, you know, this isn't instead of hospital, we have people who who who who you may need a hospital admission and go on to one on to one of the psychiatric wards. And this is, you know, a pilot scheme with a smaller group, a smaller population where we, you know, we can use the time to assess and decide, yes, you're you can come. You know, this let's let's give it a go. Let's work with you. And I think the crux of it as well is about the relationship building and we're early days with the relationship building. You know, it is getting to know each other, the patients to know that or the residents actually, you know, getting to know the staff and is working in a very different relational way. So I think I think we're not replacing the existing services. We're working alongside them and seeing how we can do something differently for that group and recognize when there's when there's a need for for an admission as well. If you know, in that in that context. Are there any other questions from the committee at this stage? Councillor Keeling, I just want to commend the service. It sounds really great for you together here and really accessible. You're you're you're hitting the rock. You're actively reaching out to the people that need the service and have that stigma around it. And we were speaking about this in full council last night. And I just think it's great that it's well integrated with the needs of. the users as well with the therapies, the clubs, the employment support, the benefit support, all of it in one. And and in a safe, open environment that people feel comfortable in. Thank you. Councillor Laguta. Yes, is Jane still there? Okay, hold on, I'll just scroll along. Is it me? Yes. Jane, yes. Very passionate. Very passionate. Thank you very much. Very passionate about it. And you've given us an insight of what, you know, what to expect. But I just wanted to find out how you'd be reaching out to the community for support. Under what circumstances would you reach out to the community for support? Yes. Do you mean under what conditions would you want to use a service like this in your capacity or that? You know, you've got this new fire. But how would you reach out to the community to support you to make it more effective? I'm, well, I'm, I won't be one of the service users that will be using this service. Because I think it's PCN1. But I feel that I'm not sure I quite understand the question. But I think that if I knew that this service was somewhere that I could go, then I would most definitely use it. promote it as some space that they should go and get the help and support that they need. And just, just to stress, this is not a service that's launched yet, has it? I mean, my understanding is you're launching on 6th of May. Am I right? As far as I know, now it's the 20th, the 12th of May. Okay. And how long is the pilot intended to run for? 14 months. And if it's a success, is the money there to keep it running? Right. I don't know if you know the answer to that. I don't know if we've heard anything further from NHS England in terms of the money. Yeah, no, we haven't heard anything as yet. And obviously, we're keen to keep it going as long as possible and thinking about how we can do that. So, yeah. I guess from a look-ahead point of view on that, there's a lot of work gone into the space, the physical space. So we'd be really keen to continue it as well. And a lot of time and money's already been spent. So there is, which wouldn't have to be spent again. And I guess the other million-dollar question is from our point of view of UNS recently. How will the learning from this pilot be cascaded down into UNS to improve our own services throughout people? I mean, I can take that very briefly from a look-ahead point of view. We have sites. We own quite a lot of stock in UNS. We work really closely with Michael and Bailey and colleagues from across the Trust and hopefully with colleagues from Mind as well. And so we would be really up for thinking about it in terms of the sort of bricks and mortar and the development work that would need to happen. And there is loads of learning about how we would do that if we had another chance to do it. And Michael, I think Michael wants to come. Sorry, Michael. So just to add in terms of the learning, so the spaces which the Trust takes for different people from across ELF to kind of learn how town looks are going. So we meet on a regular basis to kind of hear about all the challenges that they're facing and how they're overcoming them. And that's helping to inform how we change our services in Newham in the future, which is inspired by what they're doing. And Trieste thoroughly trying to lift and shift it because obviously we don't have the same injection of cash. We don't have the same building, but what can we do within our existing resources to try and implement some of the principles and ways of working which they are testing out. And as Jos says, we have existing partnerships. We'd look ahead where they have buildings where we're working in a similar way. So what can we build upon really? And I think because we're so lucky to have the town that's pilot happening within our trust and in our patch when further waves of funding come out, which we're hopeful that they will. We feel like we'll be in a much stronger position to be successful in the future. And so thank you for the overview and it's been really helpful interventions by people and good to hear about the strategic, you know, more qualitative objectives. I was wondering whether it's been decided yet what metrics will be used to lead success. Is it more outcomes or is it more trying to replicate some of the savings Trieste have been able to make? And is it both? And there are a few references on, on page 38 to some metrics, but it's not explicit whether that's just an indication or whether these is what you can understand what those metrics are. And if there's an assessment of how applicable, they might be pulling them over to new. And so I'll try and answer that and Marian might want to chip in, but I think one of the benefits of this. And where I can really thank NHS England for their approach is that they've been quite light touch in terms of how they want to evaluate it. And I think they've left it quite up to us as to how we want to determine what good looks like. Because often when performance indicators and metrics are applied, that informs the practice rather than the service user in front of you. And what I do know is I think the trust will be using Dialog Plus, which is a patient report outcome measure, which is validated and evidence based, which goes through kind of ten domains of someone's life. And they self report their satisfaction on that. So I think that will be a key part of it. But ultimately, from my perspective, success will be judged on things like, are we seeing lower hospital admissions or uses of the Mental Health Act or people going to A&E or being sectioned by the police? Because it's all these restrictive measures that are very present in our system, which they just don't have to the same value because they're meeting people's needs much earlier. So I think from a system perspective, it's those it's those kind of measures that I would look to kind of see, is this working? But Marianne, did you want to? Yeah, no, I think I think that's it. I think it's ultimately what what the service user, the patients and the residents determine is successful because, you know, they're the ones that are using the service. Not it's not, you know, it's not me as as a director saying how it should be. So it is like dialogue. It is that real live feedback from from patients and service users and make them feel safe. Councillor Keeling. My question is for our incumbent members. Would it a model like this? Would you believe that it would work well in Newham? Do you think this would be something in the future that we might look into doing? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, you know, I'm the mental health champion for the borough have been, you know, for a while now. And it's important, I think, not just because I think it's already been referenced. I mean, there's been situations in my family that we replicated across people in this room who are both on the cabinet as well as people in frontline counsellors. People come to our ward surgeries on a regular basis with all the signs of mental health issues compounded by cost of living crisis, compounded by whatever. We're working very closely with Look Ahead and Health already in terms of our supported accommodation. We have quite a lot of buildings. We need to actually make certain we're moving away from our one size fits all hostel model, whether that's in supported accommodation. The more tailored we become along the lines of Neil Gordon House, not too far away from here, working with housing associations or Look Ahead have got a really good track record on this. And it is important that this model, as Michael has said, is away from the rather not just counting the stereotypes and stigmatisation around mental health issues with a lot of our diverse communities, but it is seen as our community responsibility. The more we can engage at the preventative level, it certainly fits our 50 steps agenda. And I think, Jason, we'd welcome some some learning across this. But to bear in mind that this needs some change of practice, both from the council in terms of, you know, I think we're already working very closely. Michael may disagree, but I hope we've reached a really good understanding of health in terms of health and care space. Newham a unique way of not circumventing, but not relying on NHS estates, the buildings farm. So there's this potential learning here. But I think it's important that we don't lose sight of the fact that this is not an either or. This is together with and designed from the start, because I think otherwise it's again replicating the clinical model on to rather than with. And I think one just needs to just come in a bit. I can just very briefly add that if there is a need for Bangladeshi and Somalian young men who are not particularly accessing this type of service. Of course, I mean, you know, we have a large Bangladeshi community in the borough and, you know, a service of that kind will benefit that community. But again, I'm just worried that we don't tend to duplicate things if there are already services that we can tap into. You know, we need to be doing that. Sure. Thank you. I'd really like to bring this item to a close. I'm aware that we've overrun and that's not surprising because it's been a very, very rich item. And we've had some very rich contributions from a wide range of stakeholders. I'd particularly like to thank our carer stakeholder for attending and sort of talking about her own experiences and being involved in the co-production and mind as well. Thank you. That was very, very helpful. So. The pilot launches on the 12th. It would be great if members of the committee could actually visit. I'm saying one's running. So again, we'll try and keep this in our work programme. So I'd really like to thank all of you who gave up your time to attend this item. Although you're welcome to stay, you're now free to leave the meeting. And I'd like to move us on to our final suspense item tonight's meeting. So I'll just allow a couple of minutes for people to shift round. Lovely seat. Thank you. Is everyone happy for us to move on? So the committee, we now move on to item seven, leisure services. So this is the second part of our evaluation of leisure services and physical activity in Newham. Members will record in our first session back in July, which focused on the available data and strategic context for leisure and physical activity in our borough. In the meeting, the committee received evidence on current data trends around inactivity in Newham, qualities and strategies the council was pursuing to address them. We learned that only 58% of adults and 33% of children were recorded as doing the correct amount of daily activity. Some of the lowest levels both in London and England. We also learned that levels of activity had fallen since the pandemic. It's kind of seen in poor and poor country. And that levels were particularly poor. Levels of activity were particularly poor amongst women and girls, the disabled, and also fell as people aged. Although inequalities round deafness ethnicity was said to reflect the national picture, with people from global majority communities being markedly less active. No evidence was provided to this in or outside of the meeting. However, a revised presentation was received by the commission that revealed a very different picture and far more refined data picture. Although the lateness of the submission is slightly in breach of scrutiny protocol, and I hate presentations as people know within the meeting. I do think it's really important that the commission have a chance to properly absorb this information. So that our health and adults team are able to talk the commission through slides two to five of the revised presentation. So I'd like to welcome again to this item, councillor or this part of the meeting, councillor Neil Wilson, Jason Strelitz, Mumtaz Khan, Simon Reid, our head of commissioning, and also councillor Charlie Clark, who's joining us online. So we have the slides to hand. Who would like to lead off? Can I just give a very brief introduction? Cabinet colleagues elsewhere, and I'm liaising with them as regards a different process or CQC, are rather jealous in some cases because leisure is not always sitting with them. It comes under community engagement. But we are one council. There is no leisure strategy as such, and I keep emphasising that. We believe it is an integral part of our 50 step strategy, which is owned by the Health and Wellbeing Board, because that is where we have a statutory responsibility with our partners. We have moved a long way from a rather, I'm using my words carefully because I'm on public record, a rather strange arrangement with something called Active Newham, which was the previous leisure provider. We did have Greenwich Leisure in its former incarnation providing leisure services. And under the GLL banner, and now nationally known, still social enterprise in accordance with the majority groups, and now corporate plans sort of leading model of investment. It is not a privatised, it is a social enterprise reinvesting in its community. I'm rather pleased that we're dealing now with a national player. And I was at the Leisure Centre, which is also part of redevelopment and repurpose. It happens to be in my ward, it's called Newham Leisure Centre. It was first opened, it was one of kind in London, and people said it was an expensive facility. Private gyms do not provide the services that we have on our leisure facilities. And I just want to finish by saying, sorry, about how this meeting's being run. The idea was that in this section of the meeting, we would talk about the new data. Yes, and I'm just moving on to that. Yes, okay. Talk about better, and I'm very grateful for the people who've attended tonight to talk to better. But this is, I literally want to just talk about, finish off what we were looking at in data in the first meeting, to talk about the increase in activity levels of adults, young people, and the ethnicity data. Whilst coming to that, I just need to set that context, because this is public record, and there's been a lot of misunderstandings. We are now having a leisure contract with a leisure provider called GLL. The data has been an issue, and we are at an improved sense of data. One of my key performance indicators currently for the mayor is number of people going through leisure centres. We have got far more refined data, and we will be looking at that. My last point is, we're in a contractual relationship with better. They are delivering, and I'm really pleased about the community engagement aspect, because you can only improve data if you have a community engagement arm, and that's where I'll finish. Sorry about the long introduction, but there's been a lot of misunderstanding about where we're sitting with it. That's fine. Who will actually talk to the slides that presents these? I'm going to start, yeah. Yeah, Jason, and then... Can you just go back to the first slide before? Because I think the important thing is, when we're going to look at data about people being physically active, the leisure contract is one part of that, but I think we all know, and 50 Steps is really clear, that creating and supporting a borough to be active is about much more than a small number of leisure centres. They play a really critical role, but it's about creating an environment that is good for walking and cycling. It's about our partnerships with voluntary community sector. It's about what goes on in our community centre libraries. There's a whole wide range of things that go towards creating an active borough. So, and that's what the Priority Setout and 50 Steps are really trying to push the whole, that holistic view of what creates and supports physical activity. So, next slide. This gives a picture of what's been happening over the last five years since we launched the first 50 Steps strategy to physical activity. So this is from a national survey called the Active Lives Survey. It's how every local authority in the country gets data on physical activity. They actually do a boosted sample for a small number of boroughs and Newham is one of them. So there's more robustness to the data than for some other local authorities. This stuff can fluctuate, but that's, you know, we, we, we, that's, you know, clearly a really positive picture where we can see, you know, a consistent rise over this period. And a substantial rise 10% in adults doing the recommended amount of physical activity. And what we've seen is a real narrowing between when you're massively climbing up the national rankings on this scale. And it's equivalent to 35,000 adults extra in the borough meeting physical activity guidelines. Next slide. And there you can see that it's not just adults, it's substantial change for children and young people as well, really going from a huge gap at the beginning of that period compared to, to London and England. So almost closing that gap over that period. It's a really, really positive story. And like I say, this isn't just about our leisure contract. It's about the work that, you know, a lot of work that goes on with schools, for example, both around the environment, encouraging walking and cycling to school, but that schools are doing themselves to promote and encourage this activity. So it's a whole borough approach. Next slide. What that shows is the extent of the challenge still. So, you know, we've made really good progress, but still a lot of people in the borough who are inactive, and that's going to be a really big focus for us going forward. When we turn to the leisure contract and we talk about key performance indicators and where we're trying to really push that, one of the big focuses for the leisure provider is to reach people who are inactive. Next slide. And what this just shows is that there are different patterns amongst different parts of our population, and we could look at different, we could look at things in different ways. We can look at it as we do here with ethnicity, we could look by age, we could look by gender, there's a whole, you know, physical activity does play out in different ways for different parts of population. And again, that needs to be a focus. And again, when we turn to the leisure contracts, again, it's part of really built into the work we do with the leisure provider going forward, that we have collect data in a really rigorous and comprehensive way. So we understand these different patterns, and we've incentivized through the contract, really, the, the, the provider get better really reaching out to the groups. And we know it's not just about, you know, the incentives, they are absolutely passionate about reaching all of those least active parts of our population as well. Excellent. So, because this was data, and it went back to the first meeting, I wanted to invite the committee to ask some questions at this stage, and then we'll get into delivery and we'll talk about better. and we'll talk about the other schemes and good practice that we've seen. So, Councillor Luguda, you had a question. How do you know this is about residents increasing the activity, and not just data collection? I mean, you know, there's... Because what I want to find out is... Do you see... I mean, how are you comparing your data? Are you... This isn't... This is not our survey, Councillor Luguda. This is a national survey, national survey, the same survey with the methodology carried out all over the country. So, you know, surveys always have issues, but I think what you... When you see a consistent rise year on year, that's an indicator that something probably good is happening. You know, if it were... If the data went up and down and all over the place, then you'd worry about the methodology. But if... If what you're seeing is a consistent rise, you know, no... Numbers don't represent facts. They are... You know, surveys give you an indicator of how you're doing. And I think it's that consistent rise that gives me confidence that something real is going on. Does this mean that we've actually improved our ratings within London and England? Because one of the reasons we wanted to add this for the work programme was that we were faring so badly. No, absolutely. So you saw the data there for children and young people, massive closing of that gap. And the rankings, where we rank in London and nationally on the adults, we've climbed way up the table. We were... On the measure that we showed there, we were really right at the bottom. Now, I don't want to sound complacent at all, because I think we've still got a lot of work to do on the inactive part of the population. And what we need to... What we need to start now seeing, because it's at that most inactive where there's the most significant impacts on people's health. So what we now really need to see is some more shift from the inactive into the moderately active. You know, we don't expect people to go from doing no exercise at all to suddenly, you know, you know, reaching, you know, necessarily 150 plus minutes a week. But we want to really work with the most inactive parts of our community to get them to start being more active. Can I just put you up on the fairly inactive band? Yeah. Erin, I don't know whether you can go back to... It wasn't the last slide, I think it was the one before that. Just really quickly. It seems really unfair that we're lumping together in the same category. People who've done 149 minutes, so are pretty much there in a week. And people who are doing 31 minutes are being judged to be faring better than people who are doing 30 minutes. Do we need to maybe look at the measures? Well, the one thing I would say, Councilmasters, we don't judge anyone and it's not about... Sorry, that's not bad. Yeah. No, but I think it's important. This is about giving us indicators of how we're doing at a population level. And yeah, any measure cut-offs are a bit clumsy and it probably would be helpful if the national data was cut to separate out that middle category. I don't disagree on that. But that's what we get from the national data. And I still think, you know, on the one hand, you're right, it kind of downplays anyone in that who's close to it. But also it means, you know, the other way of looking at it is if you're doing 29 minutes a week, all you need to do is two more minutes a week and you'd be on the other side. So I think it's an indicator of progress. And I think the thing that we, the two things we can read from this are really good progress on people meeting the guidelines, but a lot more work to do on people who aren't active at all or sufficiently active. Councillor Lofthouse, you had a question about inactivity. Yes, yes. And I'm almost anticipating your answer. But it's really, how do you measure the inactivity? So this is based on self-report. Self-report. Yeah, so this is a survey based on self-report. So again, you know, there are, you know, self-report is not always considered the most reliable measure, but it is what we've got. And it's, and again, it's the trends. It's the trends which gives us confidence. It's not, we don't interpret these as precise, you know, precise measures of fact. But over time, a survey that's done year on year and showing a consistent picture gives us an indicator that things are moving in the right direction. Okay, Councillor Bourne, you had a question about young people and activity. Yeah, given school children are too young to use gym, how do we know their activity levels have increased? So again, it's, it's not, this isn't, this isn't performance data. This isn't, this isn't data that's come from the provider. We're not counting visits. This is based on a survey. So it's, it's again, it's, as I said to Councillor Lofthouse, it's based on self-report. Have obesity levels also improved? So obesity levels, I can't quite remember exactly the latest data, but obesity levels will, are caused by a lot more factors than just physical activity. So, um, we know the pandemic was really bad for obesity. People were stuck at home, um, uh, and, and had a really negative impact on obesity. Um, I can't remember the figures off hand. Okay. Uh, Councillor Cronin and then Councillor Gray. Could I just return quickly to the really significant sick inactivity? Cause that's obviously amazing deserves to be commended. Do you have, uh, any evidence anecdotal otherwise, or the best guess as to, is that down to one thing we've done? Is it a data issue? Is it, you know, about the people moving in and masking it? Is it something else or is it, you know, interventions we've done around Greenspace? What, what are we doing? So we haven't, um, we haven't got granular data, which tells us kind of, and I would very much doubt that it's one thing. Um, I would imagine it's several things. I would also imagine I, I've, I've had this conversation over many years with Councillor Masters around these broad public health measures that the population change does affect it. So you, you know, for good and for bad, when these population level measures go up, go in different directions, they can also be influenced by population change. So we know we've got a lot more young adults in the borough. It's a particularly active part of the population. That will be one of the drivers of this. The thing that gave, gives me really confident, good confidence that something good's going on now as well is the data around children, young people. Because it's not part of the population that's, um, let's say gentrified quite in the same way as our young adult population. And I think the scale of the change there really does suggest that something positive is happening. But I don't think, I think it would be very unlikely to be one or two things. I think there's a lot of different things going on and, you know, across the borough, you know, where all kinds of things are happening to try and support activity. Councillor Gray. Thank you, Chair. I mean, it's something I have brought up beforehand is, um, this is a great document. So obviously, everybody knew him and the partners are doing a lot of good and there has been intake, whatever is the reason that should be celebrated. But I've mentioned, especially the people who aren't attracted to, um, more vigorous activities like that. And I've talked about, I happen to be a very clean walker. Yep. In Newham there's three long distance footpaths originate or pass through. Um, you know, there's a short hop away from some of the most fantastic countryside ever. And you could wander around there and not see another soul sometimes. Um, so, you know, again, while some of these activities are related, I know there's been various initiatives over the years, but it doesn't seem to be a, um, a, a joined up sort of, um, extensive program on trying to encourage people to walk. Um, because it's, it's the cheapest. Exactly. Of exercise going. It's here attractive to people who may have less mobile for, uh, disabilities or age or whatever, and there are proven health benefits. It's almost as if I primed you to say that since I've been on this council, I've advocated that walking is one of the cheapest activities. And NHS colleagues along with us agree. It's, uh, encouraging less social isolation. Councillor Rush and Councillor Fadu has run a regular walking club outside from Plasto Library. It's badly advertised. I have asked the health and wellbeing board that we do more on this because it's not intensive in terms of resources, but as such a beneficial effect. Those suffering from cardiovascular disease are particularly encouraged to walk almost straight after an MI. So the more we can get people physically walking, I totally agree, John. And I think we need a one council approach. We've got a community engagement strategy that doesn't seem to mention this. And I have been banging on about this for years. I personally think, and it fits in with the facilities of toilets, about community toilet provision. We need to do a whole council holistic approach because it's things like that that could be so useful for social prescribing. I don't know whether you want to back on because I'm getting on one of my rants. No, no, no, no. Agree, agree. Yeah. Fantastic. Before we leave this item, and I know all the points that are made. One of the really concerning details that you've been bringing new data is the significantly lower levels of activities within Asian communities. And it seems to have been something that has developed and worsened in the last few years, whereas they seem to be pretty much improving at the levels of other sections of the community. Are we at a stage where we can see whether there are any intersectional trends in this? Is it largely women? Is it largely the Pakistani community or Bangladeshi community? Is it largely people from different levels of sort of wealth within the community? Do we know any more than just the fact that we're seeing the experience, the levels of activity in our Asian communities actually drop? I don't think we've got yet a detailed picture on that across the population. Like I said, all of the national evidence would suggest that those intersectional issues play out. So I think we would expect to see them play out in our data, but I don't think we've got the granularity here to be able to talk to that. But given, I mean, one of the brilliant things about the 50 steps program is it has been very community focused and it has reached out and it has gone out to centres used by different specific communities. How are you planning to address this? Why isn't that strategy? Or is it just that, again, it's bringing improved data? So I think the kind of thing is when we get on to working, talking to the leisure provider, we're going to have a much more detailed our own. This is remember, this is national data, we will have much more granular data and working with the provider, for example, to be able to target those parts of the community who are at least active. So I think that's very much part of the strategy. Fantastic. Are there any other questions purely on data before we move on to the next part of the meeting? OK, so thanks everyone for your contributions in terms of the data updates. This second session's focus was going to be far more focused on service delivery. And tonight this will include the impact of changes made to council run leisure centres under the management of the new provider Better, formerly known as Greenwich Leisure Limited, who took over their running in April of last year. But also, given the current financial pressures experienced by the council, we were keen to look at the wider range of health and physical opportunities available and the focusing of resources there. Specifically for this item, we'd like to welcome Head of Service for London from Better, Paul Lister. And also your colleague, Tony Brown, who is a community development manager. Is that specifically for Newham or is that...? Yeah, so the role, my role is area community sports manager, specifically day to day in Newham, but do oversee the community managers in different boroughs. I also had hoped to have Jack Edge here as head of primary care. Joe, I see you're still on the call. Are you covering for Jack for this section? I am, but Jack is also here. Oh, fantastic. Sorry, Jack. I can't see you on screen. You're not on screen. I'm sliding. Oh, fantastic. OK. So we have Jack Edge as head of primary care. We're also keen to learn from best practice elsewhere in terms of tackling inactivity and leisure inequalities. So we'd like to welcome representatives from the Local Government Association and also Sport England and the M2 programme. So we have Samantha Romano with us, advisor for culture, tourism and sports, shared material in advance, providing a national update on sector challenges in the strategic case for integrating leisure into health and wellbeing activity. We have Paul McLean. I don't think we have Daniel Leggett tonight. Am I right? Oh, you're Daniel. I'm sorry. I didn't recognize you from the Zoom. Hi, Daniel. No problem. Hi. And also we have your book at McLean. I can see online in terms of Sport England. But Daniel, you're here from Sport London, aren't you? Yes. Sorry. It's myself and my colleague, but from London Sport. That's right. Oh, fantastic. OK, sorry about that. And we also have Colleen Crenza, who leads on marketing and communications for the American M2 Club programme, which is now appearing in a school in Newham. Yep. And it's it's very much a British programme. Don't mind the accent. We'll talk about that sort of later on. So we'll hear your insights in terms of your movement and mindfulness programme aimed at sort of increasing participation and confidence amongst primary school aged girls. Outside of the meeting, we're also hoping to develop some recommendations based on tonight's discussions for inclusion, include inclusion in a scrutiny review report on Newham's leisure inequalities in the borough's work to address them. So are there any other partners still attending who'd like to contribute to this part of the meeting? Can't see anyone else online. So I'd like to ask Councillor Neil Wilson, just lead off with a few comments. I'm really grateful that we've got a wide range of participants here because it is, as Jason has highlighted, it's so difficult to prove a causal link between provision of leisure facilities and fitness or physical activity levels even. But what is important is that we've moved a long way, in my opinion, from having a sort of deficit model, how unhealthy we are, which is our inequalities data. As Jason has said in a moment, as I said, we are not complacent. We are aware about type two diabetes or cardiovascular figures or about obesity and weight management issues. But what is important is in this context where we are reaching those communities who are not hard to reach, but we just haven't ever talked to them enough about leisure facilities or the importance of it. And I think it's in that spirit that we need to see this particular contract. And I'm sure representatives from the organisation better will agree with me that we've moved a long way, even in a short time. It's not about complacency. It is about a rounded offer. Where else would you get, for instance, the Atherton Leisure Centre, using its soft play area to look after some of our most vulnerable, in other words, the asylum seeking refugees? That is something that a commercial operator would not even consider. Where else would you go not too far away from where we're sitting to a nutrition cafe to get a decent provision of healthy diet advice when you're coming to the swimming class? Where else would you have a contract that is developed with the consistency of a quality indicator that we've now put in our equality indicator for looked after children? We are very keen to include the data, but to include an inclusive approach. And as Jason said, non-judgmental, but at least accessible, non-specific in service of you have to do this, but with a great range of support around people's individual leisure. And I think an area to continue to push us from the from the Council, because we've got the overall wellbeing power is to make certain our health partners are doing an equal referral into the programme, whether it's from primary care or from the hospital, for instance, for cardiac rehab. I'll stop there. I think given that we've had this sort of huge shift in leisure provision, it would be good to bring in better. And rather than going straight to questions, if you'd like to share some of the things around possibly the way you've changed the offer coming out of our leisure centres and the way you operate. But also along similar lines, how the pricing model might have changed. Yeah, I'm happy to I'm happy to give an overview, Chair. So I'm Paul Lister, I'm Head of Service for GLL. So I sit across five other or five local authority partners. So I've got experience of really 10 years, 11 years in this in this role of seeing different contracts from start to finish in some instances. And we're really pleased and proud to be back in Newham as Councillor Wilson said. I'm glad you said some of those remarks rather than making it awkward for me to maybe touch on them. But we are a social enterprise. We are invested in the communities heavily. And I think one of the things that you'll note from the current contract or partnership, as we'd like to call it, is the fact that it's very, very heavily community driven. Tony's here representing the community team, you know, we're only a year in might feel like a long, long time or maybe it's gone quick. But, you know, there's a lot of work to do, but there's a lot of work that's been done. I think within the presentation you can see some of the and Councillor Wilson has kindly referenced some of the sort of highlights or good examples where, you know, there's a difference between us and a and a private operator. So apologies for sort of labour in that point. But, you know, when we're not for profit and we're and we're here for the community and I hope and I hope that resonates with people. Obviously, one of our focuses is to get this service back on its feet, really, in a way, without being too harsh on previous operators. I think, obviously, with an individual trust after Covid, it's very difficult for them to get mobilised, get going. And GLL was a national organisation, as you say. And so, you know, we've got the probably the expertise and the sort of might in a way to sort of get back on our feet quicker. And we did that generally. And obviously, within the first year in Newham, we've probably seen inroads commercially, I suppose, or just getting more people using the facility, growing up sort of core products around memberships and swimming lessons and group exercise programmes, as we were sort of talking before the meeting with Jason. You know, we've sort of had to get the basics right. And alongside that, we've sort of started almost from scratch, really, with the community arm of what we're doing. And Tony just flashed up a sort of a good example of all the different programmes that we've put in place since we've since we've been in situ, if you like, with free sessions targeting, you know, hard to reach groups, inactive groups that you've sort of referenced and mentioned. And, you know, we realise and we appreciate from our work elsewhere, and knowing, you know, some of the comments, you know, really listening intently to some of our colleagues that have been here tonight and some of the challenges, you know, one of our sort of mantras or our main mantras around improving the physical, mental and social wellbeing of our community. And, you know, and I think sometimes the mental element is and be overlooked. One thing I want to say before I forget is that we're commencing a health, I want to say health wise, but I won't mean anything to this group. But a new health partnership really taken over from I think Xyla was the previous operator in terms of delivering health outcomes in a number of areas around a GP referral scheme. And just from my point of view, seeing this in evidence in other partnerships that can be an excellent driver of getting people that are inactive get referred by their GPs back into the back into leisure centres. And one thing I wanted to comment on, but I knew we would have our turn is just when you talk about things like walking and maybe non traditional or less vigorous exercises that people can do. We totally support that and that's that's when Tony flashed up that slide of the stuff that sort of maybe falls into that category, maybe not as daunting as going to the gym or going to a yoga class or going in the swimming pool. You know, that can be a bit off putting for some. So we do appreciate that we need to provide a real wide range of the services and activities for our for our community here in Newham. So we are very conscious of that. But, you know, there's talked about childhood abuse. That's that forms part of that same program falls present prevention, which I know is close to Jason's heart. And yeah, they're really, really pleased to start that with just finishing the sort of Tupi process with the current staff, and that should start in earnest on on the first really we really want to get the ground running. I mean, there's some basics that I just want to get across in terms of running the service. I've mentioned some numbers in terms of just getting people through the door, but just having decorating, decorating the sensors, just making them more pleasing on the eye, having good. You know, people, a lot of people might not like marketing and social media and stuff like that, but actually having a strong platform, a sort of very usable website and app makes things easier for people to come into our facilities to book onto services and to come in. And we really think that's made a real difference in terms of getting people through the door. Obviously, we need to invest in projects and improve facilities. I was at Newham earlier, which is our first project. It's sort of taken a year to sort of get get the sort of diggers on the ground sort of thing, but we're going to redo the gym there. We're going to introduce a soft play, which is which is not in place there at the minute. It's a small soft play as Councillor Wilson referenced at East Ham, but that will drive in new people and we know about improving the usage for young people. And that is that is a great thing to do. That is a booming sort of can't fail product across that we're seeing in our services. So GLL has actually ended up being the larger large provider of soft play in the UK. Believe it or not, an interesting stat maybe to some. So yeah, I mean, conscious of time, but that's that's probably an overview from me. I mean, there might be lots of questions on different areas, but hopefully that's a great start. And I'm very conscious that we've got the NHS still on the call. I'm very interested. Obviously, we have a lot of we have a very rich community activity offer a lot of activities going on in libraries just talked about the work that they're doing. So I'm just wondering, Jack, from a primary care point of view, how aware are you of the the full activity offer in Newham? How aware are your your social prescribers in terms of referring people into activity? Well, I think that's a much sort of wider question for the ICB. So we have a number of teams working around long term conditions, weight management pathways. You know, all of these sort of teams that social prescribing links in with a lot of our sort of community and engagement teams as well. So I think it's something that I'd have to take back and and find out. But it's always useful to receive this information so I can share it out to general practice where possible and just ensure that that information is there and readily available. I think a lot of the time what we look for is specific programs that would fit with weight management and a sort of a course that would support a patient that they could be involved with rather than necessarily just signposting to individual classes. But it's always good to know. And if we've got materials that we can share, practices can also share, you know, advertise those within their practice, have them electronically and share that information with patients. I was just thinking just in terms of my own personal experience, when I have conversations with my GP practice when I'm at a patient participation group meeting, they don't seem as aware of what is going on at the library as they might do. Jason, did you? I just wanted to make the point that we've got really good data on use of the Joy platform from primary care. And what we see is some practices who use it extensively and others who don't use it at all. And I'm really keen that we work over the next year, we work to try and level that up. That's, you know, it shows that it works. Yeah. You know, it shows it's totally usable. And we just need and it's not just I don't mean to to to think it's only because you asked about GPs. We see the same, for example, with social workers. There are differential patterns of use of these social prescribing referral schemes. So what we need to do is we need to take those who are doing it really well and use them as the exemplars of what's possible, because actually we've got really good systems now to enable this kind of this kind of social prescribing. So we should be seeing some levelling up. And are all the opportunities in the kind of fitness and activity level that we offer the council available through the Joy app? And more. There should be. Yeah. And, you know, a lot that are provided by the community that aren't commissioned necessarily. The point of Joy is to try and be as comprehensive as possible. Yeah. Fantastic. Just just in terms of the NHS, thank you very much for attending this bit of the meeting. You're very welcome to stay if you want to stay. But generally, unless it was a specific item, we wouldn't be keeping you this this late. So if you do need to go off, then I understand. And that was the one question I wanted to put at you unless any anyone else from the committee got a question for the NHS. Okay, you're free to go, but you're welcome to stay. Thank you. Thank you. So moving on in terms of. The death data. The health system set, you know,ний needs to get provided by сотруд, but better carried out. There's a phrase that a lot of our commission's picked up that confused is slightly in the paper's rounds a potential exploitation. usage and data and i'm just wondering whether even if you could sort of explain what this term means or whether someone from the lbn uh term can without obviously simply poking any kind of sort of legal actions slightly confused terminology i mean um i don't know i i mean carly's on the call i don't know whether i want to say what i think it is but but carly might not think carly might know better exactly exactly what it is because she's she's built the presentation with one of my colleagues say again it's what you think it is in terms of rackets and numbers of memberships etc yeah okay so i mean i guess to um i've put it reasonably politely i suppose i mean we've inherited um a bit of a mess of and a mishmash of um both data and membership architecture which is a complicated way of saying someone's membership type and what they pay essentially and it's taken a good year probably to understand um the price that people are paying and some people are paying completely the wrong price people are getting access to all sorts of services that they shouldn't for that price and so we're unpicking all that and then obviously having to make you know decisions i suppose on how we approach those customers deal with those customers and just manage that manage that data manage those manage the system i suppose so that's been worked through but that i think that am i right is that right in what i'm saying carly yeah that's my understanding of it um the other issue is simon's got his hand up on on online which which one of you would rather take this i was just going to say like and it's in the slide deck before cabinet made the decision to procure the uh services and uh look for a a partner to drive the the leisure offer forward we were aware that the data wasn't as comprehensive as we would have liked it to be and it wasn't giving us the intelligence or the insight we felt we needed so it was a known issue which is why year one of the new contract looks to set a number of new baselines and then subsequent year builds outcomes and kpis on the back of that baseline so this is a known issue it wasn't a surprise uh when better took it on um although kind of as you start to unpick these things you you you get a bit more nuance and understanding exactly what was going wrong so in terms of the packages i mean this is something i've always found very complicated when i've looked at yeah yeah yeah measure center membership and i have to say this was pretty much more before better so i'm not having a go at any anybody yeah in this and and i did kind of ask this question before but in terms of discounts and and packages what what kind of how do you change the package arrangements and how do you change that those of our residents who are getting discounts yeah i mean good question i mean essentially i suppose we have a suite of traditional um memberships that we have and if you go onto our website for any borough probably you would you think what you're saying there's a lot of them but there's a lot of them because we're trying to make sure that we appeal to everyone and we have different price points and different packages to suit different parts of the community so one thing we've introduced is a is a free resident card which automatically gives people a 10 discount which is there's only a few boroughs in that we operate that that and we want to we want to do it in more it's not not always possible for different reasons with different partners but we're quite pleased at putting that in place and when you look at the data around memberships we've got you know 9 000 more members overall and some of those are those and yeah they are pay and play members but um and then you have the concession cards um holders which you would expect so people with different um needs and challenges we have a student card we have you know a sort of peak time package where you can use anywhere across the partnership you have uk packages you have memberships you have discounted memberships for say nhs workers um and so on so that so in terms of when you go to that page and you see and you'll see that monthly and annually it can be a bit challenging but obviously we do a lot of work in trying to make it as simple as possible in terms of what people end up wanting to choose councillor grey well no no it was uh daniel's yeah it's like daniel's but oh sorry that's the keeling firstly i really want to thank that because like all the time when east london energies water water boilers went down and they go down all the time like none of my residents have hot water for days and when you were running the aquatic center you were just letting them go and take a shower and i think that's really good community engagement in itself um going on on this uh on what discounts are being offered and i believe the previous people who were running efforton or were giving there's a service called cgl noon rise which is for people uh who are recovering from drug use or so substance abuse or alcohol and they used to offer them a free membership for their service users i'm wondering if that's something that would be considered again um i think there's always scope to have that conversation um before i joined the new and contract uh last august um i was working in greenwich and we worked with via who do similar work drug and alcohol rehab and we we came we put them onto a scheme uh we give it a go scheme where we got the got some funding from the local authority we purchased them a number of free memberships for them so in short yes that's something we can always do we're always trying to work with various user groups in order to you know increase participation improve health i think it's worth saying that this is a partnership so so something like that which um the gll better team wouldn't kind of unilaterally consider we'd work through it in our conversations about and we're always trying to find the whole point the whole thing with the leisure contract is trying to find that right balance between um how you you support people you want to be using it on making sure enough money is coming in to support the contract to to to deliver the leisure centers but we're always often having these conversations about parts of the population that we want to particularly reach how we might um and where in in your point which is a really good one where kind of free access to leisure may support a wider outcome which is someone's recovery from substance misuse so yeah those are the kind of causation of health aspect of it yeah exactly and those so those are the conversation list that we have collectively and try and try and find that right balance yeah that's just i mean i'm still trying to get a handle on the pricing uh which groups at the moment are getting discounts and are there any instances in which that has changed since that it took over um i know we used to i mean yeah i mean so free free swimming carries on the resident card is free and we've introduced that and that that's that's a new scheme i mean um looked after children's scheme uh is carried on the the carer's card is something we do anyway and that's something that we continued and is part of our um suite of architecture anyway we do a refugee um membership in every borough um and and where um appropriate or maybe there's a demand we also do um memberships for asylum seekers and you could you know you could argue that's actually a greater need for that um maybe that would help that that part of the community um even more so and that's been something that's and i think there's i don't know how many there is yeah over 100 asylum memberships you know in in neighboring boroughs in east london there might be zero so um yeah i mean we've widened we've widened what we we offer essentially i think there was quite a um i don't know that's one of a better expression in terms of the the suite of architecture that was in place you know and there was um you know very little in the way of price movement probably because the service provision was a not of the quality that it felt it appropriate it's you know you did have concession elements but we've introduced that and more i would say and and what do you offer for lower income residents i suppose that's the that's the concession membership which you know is i think around mid-20s per month if you wanted to play like that we've all uh pay like that we've also introduced something called a flex membership for those that might use it a few times in a month and then not really use it for a month and that's a as a monthly direct debit of five pound but it allows the person the customer to sort of and the resident to pay a lower amount of visit some people prefer and maybe suits their needs so there is you know we said we sort of not joke or we sort of think we've got we too wide an offer but we it's hard to take these things away for the reasons that you're alluding to is that we want to be there for everyone you know and when i talked about the service that we're um commissioning from the first of may is that thursday um you know there will be membership options linked to that that will be discounted against the concession membership so you will exit a 12-week weight management referral scheme and you'll go on to a membership that can't think what it is now i think it's 18 pounds a month if you wanted to pay monthly and that eventually moves up over three years to you know a concession value membership price but that's probably a good a good sort of uh summary i guess of all the different things that we do i think it's pretty comprehensive okay uh councillor gray yeah well i mean i've declared beginners meeting that i've got a swimming membership uh especially card despite my youthful looks almost yeah that's um i think understandable uh yeah i mean the class center i did a triathlon there a few years ago so again very positive experience but i i do in the back of my mind you remember i've been trying to google it i can't find it it's being concerned expressed uh with granny's ledger about industrial relations and certainly recognize recognition of trade unions do you do you recognize a trade union yeah i mean i was on a briefing monday um where i think they because we're uk wide i suppose you know where there's stronger union representation i think belfast is an obvious one um where i think a deal fell through at the last minute in terms of recognizing our sort of i don't know whether it's the the real living wage um offer or whatever but there's i don't know what the disagreements are but there is some there is some um disagreement that's stopping the unions ratifying that our most recent pay award i mean in terms of london there's very little or none of that um noise it's more it's more like to be in our library service for instance um historically that we've had that um you know and we i think we run four or five library services so you you're more likely to get it in those instances than you are in the leisure provisional service yeah well listen yeah let's get this is positive it's early days but we're not going to have a partnership in newland with any council organization contractor provider yeah i'm looking for a sort of a social organization as well but we're not going to have a partnership with the organization i couldn't recognize state unions but i do hope you take this back to your board um i mean i listen we we might we might do and i don't have the knowledge to answer the question so we can come back if you put that in the minutes we can come back and answer that and give you give you a statement there's going to be there's no few problems because uh recognizing uh your workforce for collective bargaining it's an international labor organizations it's a human rights issue and we cannot be working with organizations with respect to the rights of their workforce i mean yeah as a social enterprise we're likely to be in in that school of thinking aren't we i mean the only the example i can give you in newham um is the fact that when we um were working with colleagues and the council and you know um people that were going to work for us there was union representation for them we work with those um people and yeah there were some challenges in different instances of the different instructors and so on it's um something that we did and we i think we've ended up but yeah trading recognition is different than you know accepting when you have to by law through cheaper infrastructure i look you know the employment rights bill around the corner which is going to dramatically change uh relationship between all employers and workforce and trade unions and i'm sure there may well be problems but i would hope and expect that uh uh when we get this feedback uh we can have conversation so i've had similar conversations with other organizations in the past and they've been able to resolve the problems and recognize very clearly okay so do you uh document that as an action for the committee to follow up on that that would be great um one of the things i noted is you talked about the impact of uh the private gym opening but i'm just wondering in terms of the private gym offer given that these private gyms are opening in buildings developed by a an arm's length i'll take this one uh i'm i'm just wondering whether there's equally scope to get refined data via that relationship obviously it would have to be anonymized but sort of just to get a clearer idea of what that picture is because at the moment what we seem to have i'm guessing is a kind of dip in membership after that gym opened without sort of fully understanding where i mean um listen it's not it's not new for us to have a new shiny low-cost gym open those that use gyms or know about the industry but that's not that's not new and it is always a challenge but in terms of us getting the data as a council to understand who you're not going to get that you're not going to get that data it's a product it's a private company's uh yeah but given the facts that um i'm guessing that that organization are working with our arms length they're just tenants they're not it's commercial tenants it's not a it's our partnership in any sense they're literally just commercial tenants sorry i thought you were moving on to the policy angle because at both cabinet level and in a wider discussion we have raised and jason is absolutely clear on this and we were a cabinet meeting that was yet not minuted it's an informal discussion stage but amazing the possibility that if there were to be future gym spaces and with that opera with that other local authority trading company that we should have initial discussion so we don't have this rather cheek by jowl development where you've got one gym right next to another without us having an interest and i think that's where i should leave it because it's all a bit speculative but to assure you susan that from the point of view of a one council approach it seemed rather bizarre that we don't have more say at an early stage on where such developments i understand the fact that from a commercial point of view how far we can take this conversation in a public space i wanted to come back to our more general community offer though yeah given the council's financial challenges i'm guessing you happen to make some very hard decisions about some services that are going to be cut and some services that you might want to kind of expand because they're better than and i'm just wondering how those kind of conversations are going um where your focus is likely to be moving forward what kinds of activities you feel yield best value in terms of our community offer three three quick points carly and i were at a meeting with um you know a uh school that is adjacent to the current site of um the newham measure center last night we passed the the stage of our submission upon the local plan it happens to be in jane and i as our ward um it's the newham hospital site and i've already mentioned newham estates this is a long way of saying by the way that we need because the resources of the nhs or the resources of the council that we do need to carry on having a optimal view of what we're doing over a long term solution to the leisure centers which are you know end of life and really having a far more dynamic view of our capital program we've already invested and it was raised by people from the school in our ward as adjacent to about more what's happening to balaam street well that's quite clearly mothballed and it has you know implications on our on our users in both plaster but elsewhere across the borough it is important that we don't see like libraries i think town halls is a slightly different area but we've got buildings that we might actually come to primary care networks for instance talk about co-location services we've talked already in this meeting about chargeable lane or other buildings that we use the same is true of our leisure offer here we have a capital program in phase two i think i'm correct in saying uh jason or carly or simon in the capital program about the the uh replacement of balaam street and i think it's very important this council is committed at the moment not to shut libraries and and leisure centers but obviously we are in acute financial issues if we are serious about baseline modeling as a cabinet level and in elsewhere continuing the budget cycle straight after whatever happens in may it is this that is very important that we still deliver for our residents it's an easy cut in some other councils and it hasn't delivered it's just noting the time sorry if i wasn't wrong no that that's that's fine um i i just i'm just noting the the time so under part 4.1 of the council proceedings relations probationary meetings under article 29.1 um i'd like to move to extend the duration of the meeting beyond 9 30 because i do think we're going to overrun i don't want to overrun massively but i think this is an important topic of conversation and i think because we had that extra data to discuss i think that was a very important discussion um i would like to sort of extend our meeting from slightly uh and it won't be extended by more than 30 minutes uh can i have a second during this uh council keeling i think you you just hit council fantastic thank you ever so much um you were talking more about capital infrastructure in that conversation i'm talking about the kind of activities we have in our offer and and you know what do we feel of this most bang for our buck is it yoga is it zumba oh i couldn't possibly answer that but i need to go to an officer for that one i think there's a general point and a specific point the general point uh or a couple is is firstly in the last couple of years of the active union contract we had to put a lot of money into that contract into to subsidize it because we were not getting people through the door what's happened in the first year of this contract is is we're working entirely on um in line with um the commissioning that we set out um enough people coming through the doors to to ensure that the contract is financially viable um and and and over time what happens is actually we reduce and reduce and reduce the management fee that goes into it um and and the contract becomes actually much more cost effective for the council now the major driver of that over time will be by bringing more and more people into the centers um and there and therefore what we do is this there's a couple of things the community offer reaches new people and some of those people and that's really important thing to do for all kinds of reasons you know if we get if we get older people active that's going to save money out of social care but directly within the scope of the contract that will bring more people into the centers and pay for itself over time now what the team will do and they can speak to is part of their job as the experts is to really pour over the data around swimming and yoga and cycling and and see what's working for our community and what's not working and what do they need to do to adapt and shift the model to try and make sure that all of the things that we're putting on are being taken up by the community and that may be about the activity maybe about the time it may be about the coach it could be about all different things and that's where we leave it to the experts with really good data to try and adapt and evolve the model over time so that we get the most take up of the offer because ultimately both the council and the provider are really strongly incentivized in all kinds of ways to get as many people and particularly from our target groups coming through the centers but that's the centers i'm talking about community that's why i said that that so the community activity will ultimately bring people in because it helps to reach new people who are are least active and they will you know again they will do the same work tony look should speak to it because he's the expert yes if i jump in there so i think it's what we got is a distinction between what you got like kind of the regular leisure center offer the service delivery and then what i'm responsible for is which is the community active communities program that's what's quite unique about so is that like the pilates that we've got in our libraries yeah exactly exactly right so you see i i had no idea that was being provided by the leisure that's not us sorry sorry just to be clear we're we're not currently delivering in libraries so the the council correct me if i'm wrong here um have their own get get set get actually get active get active reality where stuff is happening in libraries and we have engaged with them because what what was about to say is that with my team our job is to be a bridge between community and the leisure center that's our number one goal and in doing that we need to deliver physical activity sessions in community spaces these could be libraries but like i said that sort of stuff's going on but these could be children's centers religious venues care homes this is the sort of stuff that i was doing previously in greenwich and this is how one we tackle inactivity for health etc but also then drive participation in the leisure centers because in my experience there's obviously there are lots of different barriers to people getting active and half but what i find is a lot it's about awareness a lot of people just not about aware of programs and the activities that are on offer and then just to go back to what we talked about in terms of price in terms of the memberships a number of times i've been in sort of the borough getting to know because i'm from south of the river um people just don't know that we've got different types of offers so that the resonance card because you know we've got to be empathetic and say that some people just cannot afford 20 30 40 50 pounds a month coming out of their bank accounts but what they don't know is that they can get a residence card get 10 off their their any kind of headline price and they can just come in and pay when they can so it's making people aware locally that these sorts of offers are actually available and then on the other side of it our community delivery where we're offering low-cost programs for either three or two and three pounds where there's no obligation there's no contract so i think that's where we're we're working is to for me to lead in terms of bridging the gap and then paul and the rest of the the leisure team really improving the service and then making those shifts and adjustments you know to class timetables to staff etc hopefully that answers your question but happy to i think i'm still slightly confused in that you know i've i've experienced classes in the leisure centre but i've also experienced classes and in the library so i'm just trying to understand what the future of the library classes are if they're a separate program is the idea that better they're going to sort of take those on or no do we oh carly's got a hand up yeah carly hiya um yeah sorry i think what you're alluding to um councillor masters is the additionality of the community offer outside of the leisure contract itself so one of the things that we're doing and working with gll on and a number of other partners is obviously revisiting what the offer is because what we don't want to do um under the kind of financial constraints that we're under at the moment is duplicate an offer so making sure you know your point around some of the stuff that's going on in the library making sure that if there is stuff happening in the library we wouldn't provide that within the leisure centre or as part of the community offer that tony's talking about we'd look at where some of those gaps are so that again is something that we're working with um with gll on is looking at that kind of overall view um of what the offer is for the for the borough thank you i'm really aware that we've got other people who haven't seen this meeting yet and and we absolutely have to get those people in um so i want to move on to samantha from the local government association um you have a great statistic in the supplementary uh ice package that you shared with us about for every uh one pound investment in leisure it generates 58 pounds 71 in terms of uh savings in terms of people sort of long-term help um but we're sure there are some boroughs who are spending those pounds more effectively and in particular you were talking about uh some of the work going on in redbridge did you want to say a little bit about that yes no thank you chair um so yeah so uh redbridge um one of your neighboring sort of authorities um locally has been um running a kind of uh kind of uh exercise on referral screens scheme now since 2008 it started off in um one leisure center and is kind of expanded to borough wide um and it's a really good example of um the uh leisure centers working with the local hospitals and gps to refer patients in um particularly they're focusing on around rehabilitation services so things like cardiac um you know also diabetes prevention um and they've got quite a sort of wide range they offer a kind of 12-week program um and alongside this also offer a kind of discounted rate as well so that um on top of that kind of uh weekly or kind of uh bi-weekly um kind of free uh gym session which has um a kind of a personalized program for individuals and a lot of kind of support from leisure um center staff and they also are able to access a gym at discounted rate rate outside of that program as well and it's really helping to kind of help change um behaviors and to kind of drive down some of those service costs on um some of the kind of nhs services as well as um kind of improving the kind of uptake in um physical activity in in that borough there um so neil and and jason from what you've described it sounds like you might already see a lot of this stuff and also in in the papers i know there was some brilliant material about a possible future gym for older people and uh better we're talking about taking leisure into care homes do we need to blow our own trumpet loudly um and make sure that the next time the lga does a publication that some of the things we're we're up to yeah i think that's a political thing i would say and you know carly has been under pressure from me and the mayor and i would say publicly that i tweet a lot from better but i would have the same discussion with our communications team tweet tweeting is just one thing and i think we do need to do more of that in different different platforms we've already mentioned the joy platform which has had a lot of hits and about getting the message across it there's a real communication issue for us in the council i think and it is important that the 12-week programs for instance about cardiac rehab or about free swim classes there was a lot of misinformation that we were shutting things down we've actually increased provision and i think it is the holding on frontline counsellors as well but also the role of your report will be helpful in this to sort of make certain that the messages get across i think jane was talking earlier on about how do we communicate things in the health statement it is a difficult landscape to navigate but it doesn't stop us saying this is the offer and this is you know because otherwise it can be if you're not careful chair sort of patronizing you know you you need to do more with your exercise and it's about what is available but what is also accessible just going back to the walking program or you know it doesn't have to just be gym fitness on that very level i know when we met before you were talking about this fabulous borough-wide resource map yeah i mean say for example you know which parks have got uh a swing box of dumbbells yeah i would imagine which ones have i mean like one of my local parks qr codes access to footballs and table tennis that's in all of our parks which i found fantastically exciting and just stumbled upon there's it carly with nicole and yourself we have got the maps in libraries now haven't we just do come and just bring carly in yes absolutely yes so these are now available yeah so the maps were put in all of the libraries there's an online version of the map itself and it's also been put online through the joy um platform as well um nicole is in the process of updating because as you can appreciate anything that's printed is potentially out of date not too long afterwards and all of the work that she's been doing um working with the parks team we've got an increased offer around some of those equipment boxes and various other things that we've updated with the parks team as part of an offer for leisure and activity so that's being updated at the moment what i can do and apologies erin i don't think i did this i will send you the online link um for the map that's currently available but it's being updated at the moment okay in in terms of other guests we've got in the room daniel you're here from sport london and uh councillor keegan wants to sort of talk to you about the um for england 190 million pounds place expansion program which newham has just started on and i understand this is a three-year journey so we're not going to see the results quickly uh but councillor keegan you had a question yeah we know the first 12 to 18 months would be about looking at current offer and assessing the gaps inequalities before applying for the funding to address some of these what will this deliver for now um in terms of specific outputs i suppose the initial stage which we've kind of termed as a pre-development award phase will focus on developing an initial pocket thinking about servicing what the key priorities are overarching goal and aim of the the program is to tackle inequalities so focusing on the inactive part of the the graphs and charts that we've um highlighted today um and so recognizing like some of the other points that people have raised in the session today is that lots of the challenges and the inequalities that that people face in being physically active are intersectional they're complex yeah and i suppose this program seeks to um support the adoption of a place based on the whole system approach across a collection of local partners that know the place best and so with that in mind the initial pre-development award phase would sleep by to bring those partners together and find out from a local perspective what some of the key inequalities are and recognizing that there could be a an approach across partnerships and and um existing services for example um that may uh already address some of those inequalities and i suppose mapping out as you say during the initial development award phase the barriers and the challenges that local people face to being physically active but also recognizing some of the strengths and the assets of uh the areas and that that's quite rightly been raised where people are being really physically active or perhaps recognizing that even um amongst communities that are um still uh physically active uh inactive i should say uh there could still be other strengths and assets that could support with uh a long-term shift in um becoming more physically active that initial phase would seek to kind of put all of those puzzle pieces on the table so that we can have a shared understanding of what those inequalities are and consider some initial ways of working to address some of those using some of those local assets and strengths and recognizing some of the risks and challenges and um inequalities that are there so in terms of specifically what they will aim to do it's probably too early to tell and that's what the first parts uh look to um service and i'm sure i speak on behalf of all councillors and the cabinet members that um we'd all be very excited to know is it going to be in specific areas which one of us will be the lucky one uh residents will benefit it's going to be a borough-wide um approach with multiple partners sure so it's a borough-wide approach um but i suppose uh where the approach is trying to move away from the idea of uh a national organization like sport england or even a regional one like london sport suggesting where needs to to see change or or where things need to be addressed i suppose uh combining a number of different data sets whether that be quantitative data through our own active live surveys or other data and insight as well as local intelligence and local knowledge as well um overlaying those things really to um identify if there happen to be any areas or particular parts of the borough that could benefit from particular targeting and in particular ways um i couldn't tell you today exactly what those particular types or or approaches might be but i suppose the the program has two distinct parts the development award phase which is that initial one that you referenced um and i suppose if uh across the partnership it was recognized that there were certain areas within the partnership that could benefit from a particular type of approach then we could explore ways in which to do that but overall in terms of the long term and the the full award phase the second part of this uh investment um we would look to kind of expand and scale some of that across the entire but so that's not to say that a full borough approach means it has to be full borough right from the start if we recognize that there are particular ways in which we can address particular inequalities with particular communities and they happen to be in particular areas then that's something that needs to be recognized and we need to explore just just to give us an example are there any other parts of england where this has come to fruition and you can talk about some really good practice that has been carried out or they're all beginning this early stage at the moment um it's uh a mixture of stages so this whole um place partnership development journey has started as early as maybe let's say 2008. in terms of actual results i'm just i really want to move on to colleen and give her a good amount of time on her project as well but can you give us examples of practical things that have been brought forward through uh yeah i suppose um there were a number of uh local delivery pilots as they were termed in this initial phase of developing this work uh two in london one which um was in uh earling south hall it's right it's like subtle uh which is a a active travel and focused um cycle scheme that works in a lot of different ways that seek to set up a bit of a um active travel infrastructure around um getting people active through cycling in particular around the borough and doing that in a safe way so that was not just around um putting bikes in the hands of people that that didn't necessarily have access to them that was one component but also around having wraparound support so having things like um cycle ability courses um road safety awareness as well as um having kind of bike maintenance schemes that kind of thing and that involved engaging partners across different uh spaces and um venues across the borough um as well as being able to work with local voluntary organizations to support with posting some uh doctor bike clinics for example um as well as working with um public health colleagues to help with referrals into those schemes um and so i suppose uh i probably couldn't tell you in i think that's fantastic i mean it just just to save you some time we're already doing all of that in in newham i think so um it that that will save you some time for your scheme i really mean i i think that's very exciting and and going forward hopefully it will bring some more money into the system to gain help improve our data um helene hi very patient do you just want to give us i mean i know a lot of papers were shared with the committee about what what your scheme does but can you tell us about the involvement in in newham and then i think chancellor gwana had a question really quick overview that the goal of our program is working with primary people is recognizing that their confidence is dropping at younger ages and um in greater rates than boys they're dropping out of physical activity and i do want to differentiate between sport physical activity movement because they do mean three different things depending on the person and they're all wonderful things and i've been to participate in all those things throughout my life um but when girls are dropping out of these things you're seeing their confidence drop you're seeing their interest in physical activity and movement drop but knowing there's so many benefits long term not necessarily about being an athlete but my confident raising my hand in class do i take up space do i make myself hurt do i take challenges do i do i take a risk even though i don't know whether or not i'm going to fail and if we can give these girls this foundation to start building that so rather than when they become teens and all that it's ended and we're trying to rebuild it can we start with them and just make a strong foundation so the program did start in the us i was not with that i found it here started in leeds and um we've been involved in london mostly in hackney um newham in newham we are partnering with sophie downer at the central park cafe sorry sorry in newham you're partnering so getting here i can't hear very well we've done programs in newham through a grant from sport england and from london sport the sport england one was uh majority schools we're doing a program now with sophie downer who is at the central park cafe in the right i thought yes that's what you said yeah and i thought that's my just checking that i heard you correctly i thought she is using the space knowing that there are people in the park anyway can she take a location based approach of there are people here rather than trying to force people to go somewhere where maybe they're not comfortable here's a place that they know they have access to the park the girls go through an eight session program with a 5k challenge at the end but throughout we're talking to them about what are things that make you nervous what are the things that make you feel strong what are your two voices saying in your head your critic your cheerleader saying how do we recognize that we all have those but then develop the tools to decide which one we want to listen to and how do we use those voices to move us forward how might they hold us back and in doing the 5k challenge it's the girls are in charge of how they get around it's not necessarily it's not running it's walking it's jogging whatever pace they're comfortable with but showing them you can do tough things and this it's not going to be easy when they do this it's meant to be a little bit hard but to show them that i tried it maybe it didn't go really well the first time i did a maybe a structured workout that we had or a certain game but i'm in the safe space it's not judgmental we can talk about what worked what might be better next time and then okay maybe you take a step sideways but now you're going to go this way that it's not linear and if we put them in a safe place where they're taking on challenges and it doesn't go exactly as they expected they're not going to crumble and think i speak at doing that or i'm not an insert i'm not a physical activity person i'm not a person who enjoys movement it's just you're a person who tried something new and let's see what happens tomorrow i just wanted to put a question to the lbn team about this sorry jason's had to leave and we are well i think being hassled a bit about the town hall location that's fine but we are allowed to extend standing order oh yeah exactly i'm with you chair i mean it's a council building so we can have council meetings this is his question and then slowly sort of bring us to um i'm just interested because one thing we didn't really see in the new data was uh an idea of gender because when we had the first meeting on data you were talking about um women and girls tending to score lower in terms of activity in the borough um and that the picture tended to worsen uh as uh women age and i'm just wondering because i didn't see that in the data any indication of where we're going on gender exactly wondering whether that was exactly montez and i had uh you know a discussion just on notes in front of us here you know we we were in one-to-ones with the mayor and we we get regularly asked about you know the leisure we have the contracts going you know what about this because people have case work and you know there was all these rumors about the um single gender gym facility we're actually i hope i'm on record correctly saying that the the one this very one is being re-investigated in terms of its space at the single gender gym here and we've already highlighted within the report that that is part of the contractual um thing we will be monitoring we are monitoring in gender terms because i mean as montez said i think sorry can i just hand over to montez on that one you raised it yeah yeah i mean you know something that i'm particularly interested in you know again you know bangladeshian women who are particularly concerned about going to a gym where the space isn't safe enough or or they don't feel safe enough and generally for women it's it is a concern where they want to be able to go to use a resource that is um at least some sessions are women only and that you know um carly can also add to this that there are some abilities that are only for women yes i know we've got a women's gym east ham i know we have women only uh pilates sessions in uh certainly in east ham library simon did and i mean i can see so you've both got yeah yeah i think two elements just to pick on firstly like i started with like we needed a good year's worth of data to be able to understand where our focus points are as part of the contract there's an incentives offer and um we we now have the data to be able to work in partnership with gll to set that for year two the second point and i guess this is i don't know whether this is the best term to use but i'm passionately agnostic about how people get their activity like some people go to tea dancers some people go for walks some people go to community centers some people go to leisure centers like what we want to develop is a very well-rounded uh approach where we may have gll doing some of that activity we equally may have an independent contractor working from one of our community sites or a community organization that steps into a various space what we want is the data to be able to see where there are gaps and in equity within that gaps and then try and fill that in some kind of shape or form so we will get ever more sophisticated with how we develop our plan because the data and co-production will be the kind of foundation of that that kind of process and you know like the proofs in the pudding i think what you've seen to date through our 50 step strategy is an increase in activity we now need to get more specific about the areas that haven't increased uh in the same kind of trajectory yeah okay counselor guana did you want to ask the questions i know you're really concerned about yeah yeah um as we know girls are less likely to be active what needs to change that's a really good question and i would try my best to answer it we need to create opportunities for girls to discover those things that they enjoy versus trying to force them into the structures that currently exist and i'm signing to your point about saying that you're agnostic about movement if you're moving your heart rate's going up yeah that's a great thing exactly if you're taught that i'm not good at netball so i'm not good at netball so one of our activities is going to be climbing out the windows and getting down on the ground it will stay sorry about that we are allowed to it extends uh to 10. um i don't know why this is proving to be an issue tonight obviously we we don't intend to but i think tonight because we we had a lot to get in it's clear we're going to have to close the meeting uh now so i'm very happy to sort of take extra points sort of outside of the meeting and i'm sure we'll be following up with all of you going forward can i as a cabinet member take this up further we have something called facilities management and facilities management facilitates the management of the council's processes so chair i think it should be holding on me to investigate this as well as you thank you because i think it's both uh not particularly respectful to visitors who have taken their time out we are here as the elected people to run the council so we were taken up but on behalf of the cabinet and the executive i do apologize sorry i think i need it easy i think i needed to say that no thank you um there are only two other items firstly i'd like to say a huge thank you to all the many people who've attended tonight either online or in in the chamber and it's been lovely having so many people in the chamber in terms of the next item our work plan we're at the end of it this is the last meeting of the scrutiny year uh we will have a new process over the summer when we will be consulting with stakeholders possibly with myself possibly another chair who knows and the date of the next meeting at the moment scrutiny dates from new year but i'm sure that uh the powers that be will be in touch so i'd just like to thank everybody uh aaron sangian is my office um and everybody who's attended uh tonight and throughout the year and to the members of my commission i'm also sort of attended and put in the work sort of reading the papers and uh council appealing uh with the scrutiny system aaron basically could you put in the notes a commendation of for our chair for this municipal year and the hard work that she has been for the community today yeah thank you very much thank you and on behalf of the on behalf of the cabinet and that includes montez we do have this discussion thank you for sorry i'm still talking can i um on record also say thank you very much sometimes you know scrutiny is not an easy process but it shouldn't be we are summoned here like we're summoned to full council and you know it's a strategy committee and well done chair but also to all members of committee giving us the right level of a challenge and i i think in the most respectful way sorry about that sort of stuff but we'll deal with that outside about the timing but i wanted to put that on record that this is an important meeting because it's about our residents and their health care system thank you very much everybody and now i'll continue to meeting at 9 50 so 10 minutes before we have all of this thank you thank you and thank you everybody thank you