Transcript

Good evening, I'm Councillor Wayne, I'm chairing tonight's meeting. We're not expecting a fire alarm test this evening, so if the alarm is sounded, please evacuate the building. I'm not going to go around and get everybody introducing themselves, but if when you first contribute to the meeting you can introduce yourself, that will help those following on. online. Apologies for absence. We've had apologies for absence from Councillors Hyde, Jackson, Clark, Staff and Kondoka, and apologies for lateness for Councillor Ozdemir. declaration of substitute members. Delighted that Councillor Hayes is here. No, we'll continue on. Councillor Hayes substituting for Councillor Kondoka. Any declarations of interest? No declarations of interest. Turning to the minutes of the previous meetings, we have the minutes from the Thames, Walter, scrutiny, and I'd like to propose an amendment to those minutes, simply to reflect the fact that Councillor Hayes was present at that meeting. Um, with that amendment can that be agreed? Um, then, um, if we can agree the minutes of the previous meeting? Agreed. Um, chairs report. Um, for once I don't think that I have, um, anything, um, to, um, report. Um, save to say thank you to all members who attended the, um, informal, um, session party, um, uh, to, um,udent. Um, and to . to, um, and to, um, uh, troudos, um, the, um, um, workers, um, at the their contributions that really have shaped the recommendations that we will be discussing tonight and also that we had a very interesting session with representatives from our trade unions and they have very much fed into the recommendations that we will be discussing later on tonight. I think the only other thing that I ought to note is that this is the last meeting of the municipal year and that means that there will be a change of personnel on this committee at our next meeting and I'd like to place on record my thanks for Councillor Clarke, Councillor Kondoka, Councillor Jackson, Councillor Nanda and Councillor Hyde's work this year and for some of those, I think in particular Councillor Clarke, many years of service on this committee. They will be much missed but it also means that there will be fresh faces coming to the committee next time that we meet and it's always good to have a turnaround of people on the committee bringing different perspectives to the work of the committee. Public questions, I don't see any members of the public but I do see Councillor Chowdhury. Yes, regarding the Councillor Clarke, you appreciate him. I would not appreciate him because she used to sit with me just, yeah, and she was really good to, regarding the maternity ward, yeah, which is, we kept in Islington, it was, came from Jaws and it's the first one we heard that every time she made a question, she always speak on behalf of Islington, all the time and she was, I think, really well missing her. And her input is really good. Also, I live in Harward, she's my counsellor and she's very good and people like shelter accommodation and other accommodation people like her very much and I think we're going to miss her. We need comrades like her to be here. Thank you, Chika mentioned for her and I thought I should put her on the record that her, all the activities she did for the maternity unit. Thank you. I'm extremely grateful for those observations and Councillor Clarke has been a passionate voice championing environmental issues within the Council and she has been an outstanding chair of the Environment Climate Change Committee and has made a huge contribution to the work of the Council and will continue to do so, I'm sure, while she remains a member of the Council, she ain't gone yet. There are no items by way of calling for this committee to consider and therefore we can move on to the annual review. In fact, it's the first annual review of the five missions and presenting for us tonight and answering questions for us tonight. We have Councillor Theodore O'Harran, the Leaver of the Council, Stephen Biggs, the Corporate Director of Community Wealth Building and John Abbey, Corporate Director of Children's Services, who's very much here to answer any questions that the committee might have specifically around the mission that directly relates to children's services. So, I think, Lida, you want to say a few words by way of introduction. Thank you. It's a real pleasure to be here. So, we took it in April 20th, 24. We were asked back to review how the five missions are going. So, that is a child-friendly, community wealth building, empowering people, a safe place to call home and greener and healthier. So, between the three of us, if you've read the report, we're happy to answer questions. So, we will start off with child-friendly. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Leader. So, John Abbey, Director of Children's Services. With child-friendly and that mission all-encompassing, really, and ultimately, I suppose, what we're trying to make is that child-friendly for communities, that young people thrive, that families grow, that they settle, and we want it to be a place where people do settle and stay. With child-friendly, a number of ambitions in there around seeing this offers. We are thinking family and that continuum of family, when you look at those first three and under the umbrella of child-friendly, with the family hubs and the family supporting families, innovation from the government. We're slightly ahead of that, the ambitions about Best Buy and Love, particularly that 0-2. We have some challenges in there, and one around school attendance. That's been themed for children's scrutiny this year, quite rightly so. We're focused on secondary. It's just as challenging in the primary phase as well, but we have some of those building blocks in place to, we hope, actually make traction on some of those quite poor metrics. And, I'd just say, with a lifelong corporate parenting, really looking at those young people in education, employment, and training. And our ambition is to be in that top quartile nationally. But how could you take any questions, Chair? Really taking a steer from the committee as to whether we want to take it effectively, mission by mission, or whether, looking particularly at Councillor Halloran and Stephen Bix, whether you want to say a few words by introduction, and then we'll take questioning around. My instinct is probably what everybody was expecting was a few words by way of introduction from the panel, and then questions around the table. Is that... Yep, let's go with that. If you want to do community wealth building, then I'll do it in power of people, we'll... Yeah, and then we'll take questions from the committee on any topic. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, committee. So, let me talk a bit about community wealth building. So, community wealth building fundamentally is a people-centered approach to economic development, and in plain English, that means building an economy that works for everybody. We've got a great economy, a thriving place, but in many respects, it doesn't work for all of our residents and all of our businesses, and that is our job, which is long-term. I think we've made good progress in that year. Everything is green, but there is still a lot to do. And in terms of progress, I think two things we've done already. One is, you know, focus on some of our key deliverables. So, you know, I think we've had great success, for example, with our IMAX service, putting, you know, a substantial amount of money back in people's pockets, but we've still got more to do. There's still about £150 million of unclaimed benefits across the borough, so there's a lot more to do. We've had, I think, good success in putting people into good work as well, but there's more to do. But at the same time, we've wanted to put in place some of the more sort of longer-term strategic frameworks. We've done work during the year around building all our work around cost of living, and moving to what we are ambitiously and deliberately ambitiously calling an ending poverty strategy. We've done work to produce the Council's first strategic asset management plan, a range of work around the local plan, and some work also to, which is really so basically home, but to put in place a delivery model around our affordable homes work as well. So a mixture of direct deliverables and putting some strategies in place, and I guess looking forward, the focus is to carry on driving each of those forward and also embracing particularly things like what's called Connect to Work, which is a new employment scheme, which has effectively got a devolved basis from the DWP. So carrying on with an extra of that sort of direct delivery stuff and continuing to build the wider strategic framework. So I'll carry on with the empowering people, which is the thing that I'm probably really interested in, because if anyone knows me, I keep saying we have to involve our people, our residents. Residents' voice is important. So I'm just going to say some of the successes and some of the challenges and things we're working on. So the strategy and engagement team continues to fill up and implement projects. So in the last, we've recruited 18 residents to a panel to welcome small grants, participates with grant making. I was at the other night at the climate panel, and it was just really amazing to see how that was done, the diversity, to see the work that the residents are coming up with, you know, with officers, with everyone. It's just the, it is the way. We need to be out there, we need to be listening, we need to be working alongside our residents. We've also developed a consultation process to provide corporate grip on consultations run right across the council. So each directorate, myself and Victoria, are saying, what are you doing to engage the residents? So we're really keeping a close eye and grip on that. The residents using the Biolive Service continue to experience extremely positive outcomes. 98% of all users maintain outside statutory service for a year. We're really targeting support. So there's some real positive things. In quarter three, the percentage of calls answered improved at the highest rate, just, you know, in a long time. So that is good. But we're not there yet. Things that we need to focus on is the residents' satisfaction at first point of contact. It remains below target. It isn't good enough, but with this committee and plenty of scrutiny, I'm sure we're going to get there. And as you all know, we're looking at the delivery plan regarding the community centres and spaces. And this is going to take a while. And I do not want to rush it because there's lots of... It's really right. We look at all the assets because we've got such a different mix of models and we want to work alongside each and every group that uses it. We know and really get the best value out of our assets in the future. You know, and it might be sharing spaces, it might be moving people, but we want to work with people, so that's what I want to reassure you. I'm not going to say much more about that. I could actually do the homes because, as you know, I had the housing. I want to show some of its successes. So we've had, in Quartersbury, the council completed a further 41 new social homes rented at Dixon Clark Hall. And just, they're absolutely amazing. Parkview Estate, four homes, and over 10 homes. Added to the six new homes in quarter two at Corker Walk on the Andover. This brings a total of number of homes completed this year to 47. And I am proud if we've got five homes, 10 homes. So many councils stop building and we keep going and going. Making the best use of our homes, 69 council tenants assisted to move to smaller homes. And 53 properties were reallocated to overcrowd and household. And there's big plans. John and the housing scrutiny give lots of recommendations how we could even, you know, target to sort of really do the home swap. So there's lots of things. So I think, watch that space and I'm sure that the scrutinies and everyone like yourselves will be asking more questions on that. 307 out of our 400, yeah, 370 out of 400 funding, X right to buy properties. We're buying every single week and it's so amazing. We've got the biggest right to buy. Imagine getting all those homes back into council stock to TA. Like it's just phenomenal. We've been really lucky working the Mayor of London, the government, just to get the grants. So when one of them councils, when we get it, we use it. So that is really, you know, good news. But there is still a big increase in TA and temporary accommodation. You know, but I do believe that with the team we've got, they really do look out and we do our best for everyone that's in TA. You know, that is going to be a problem. That's throughout London. But on the average, we do not want people in bed and breakfast. And we, you know, the more we buy back, we can keep them, those families. It's good to have TA in our own borough. So that's our, you know, it's our mission to, you know, court free. I think I've just got to stop there on that and wait until you ask questions because I'm sure you've read it and there's some, you know, some really good stats in here and some good information. Does anyone want to take the green as else here? Okay. You want to take it? Me again. So, you know, two missions in their own right, I think, in the foundation around supporting our residents to live independent lives and creating a healthy borough. And again, I think the same message, some progress, but a lot more to do. I think it's important to work around carrying on greening the borough. We have, as we know, far too, yeah, little green space in our borough. So everything we do to expand that is vitally important. We've launched our first two liveable neighbourhoods this year and more to come. And as folks will be aware, that's sort of culmination of bringing together a range of strands but ultimately to create, as the side of it says, liveable neighbourhoods that benefit all of our residents. And, yeah, a range of work with our health partners. Clearly, the health system is going through very significant change and really important that we carry on engaging with the ICP and voluntary sector providers in that space as well. But a lot, as the paper says, a lot more to do in terms of rolling out liveable neighbourhoods. we certainly need to do more thinking around delivering more green space and there's work around things like public parks, the thriving neighbourhoods programme I think has made a real difference and also I think a great example of a very sort of grassroots-led programme that's very much driven by and for our local communities. Some more work to do on recycling, you know, very difficult in urban areas. Again, making investment in things like estate-based recycling, recycling for flats above shops but that is tough and difficult and similarly to the rest of in London are recycling rates aren't where they need to be but as you'll see in the paper significant work to try and improve those over time and then as I said on the healthy side you know, range of ongoing work both directly through our groundwork with voluntary sector and our statutory partners and some important work in here particularly around drug and alcohol services and improving our mental health pathways as well. So again, I'll stop there but I'm very happy to pick up. Let's do this. Thank you. I'll mention one thing on the homes. We also took 75 properties that were covered through tenancy fraud and this is a big push for us going forward. We're going to do a lot more work because those homes then go to families that need it and we make no apologies when we get homes back and also the 300k went for the unlawful profits and we claim that back as well so that is that is a really good news story. Thank you for that. Let's take questions. What I've indicated to some members is this because we are fewer in number than we sometimes are that provides an opportunity for members to have a deeper dive into topics but if we can perhaps focus in each member on one topic area that will I think help with the questioning. So who wants to go first? Councillor Chowdhury then Councillor General is on. Thank you. Thank you. I know we're doing fantastic job and everything because of the funding card and everything but one thing I'd like to raise about you last year our scrutiny committee we look at access to the GP service and access to the social care and we recommended just one issue just I'll say one way because you know Ellington is one of the council always take lead like a 20 mile speed and other borough follow and one of the recommendations was that GP federation should work with GP surgeries to establish a borough-wide charter to access primary care service setting our best practice in terms of access and ensuring that practice have choose over whether to access services online in person or over the phone depending on their preference this should also consider relevant quality implement ensure residents with disability have equal access to the service it was raised that people finding very difficult to access that because the maximum GP service started online and people don't take anything over the phone that's why just want to know where we are about this one about making Ellington charter for duty for information can that's the challenge was this recommendations from health care scrutiny yes I'm not sure if I can answer that but I was going to say I will get you that information back to the committee I don't want to give you wrong information I do remember something reading it but I will get back on this I don't want to put both of you on the spot if it's not your portfolio No, I think better to come back and we could say some general sort of things but I think better to give you a firm fact-based response But it is right, everybody there's not everybody is digital and online so we must make sure that our residents have access to phones and things Mr Chair and Councillor Chair if I can, I think one of the things that is an opportunity but we absolutely need to work with health partners is that you'll be aware and of course you'll be aware of the concept of neighbourhood hubs which is frankly not something that's new but something certainly nationally that has been talked about as a key priority and I would expect much like we think about in terms of our own front-facing services that those hubs are as accessible as possible in simple terms as you said work in a way that works in a way that's convenient to our residents so I guess this is an observation and I'm sure John may not come in but we would want to make sure from our perspective that that work around neighbourhood hubs working for example with the GP Federation with the locality networks all that stuff tries to give you one response but I suggest we come back with a full one and just on that if we look at the empowering people mission the statement is very clear everyone in Islington who needs extra help can access the right support for them at the right time and the right place so that absolutely is at the core of our mission and certainly for my part I would expect that to be a real focus going forward are residents in Islington able to access their services bearing in mind there are different levels of ability to access digitally services there are sometimes language barriers there are sometimes mobility barriers and it's so important that we as a council make it as easy as possible for our residents to access services particularly because it's very often those residents who have disadvantages that need our services the most and I don't know Councillor Chaudry if you want to come back on anything that you've heard thank you for this one also we made a recommendation for the adult social care answering phone and not answer swiftly and we recommended on that also that twice adult social care should give us a KPI for people just I read the recommendation what did the adult social care just a second the committee heard that residents are finding difficult to access to support needed and answer call email also found difficult to know what options were available for them regarding our adult social care the recommendation was that ASC adult social care allow access by phone in person and online and monitor the outcome of each contact made to the adult social care teams and that keep performance indicator relating to those outcomes to be reported to the committee twice a year we recommended any call anything should be recorded and what is the outcome written and every twice a year should be given to the adult social care our screening committee but it hasn't started yet I hope it's going to start very soon that means we can monitor if any complaint any missing anything that way I can see John wants to come in yeah thank you I think it's such a good question because as Stephen alluded to that whole neighbourhoods approach is a population health approach via the integrated care board we know the challenges they've been reported around that 50% reduction and what will now be coming and it's not new the neighbourhoods approach I think what we do and did see in that quarter three was the integrated health and care front door first of its kind in north central London and again it is about how we most certainly enhance that quality and that experience the family hubs where we have three in the north and middle and south central again I think they are well used but how better can they be accessed and I think that goes back to your digital point met with parent champions yesterday who said exactly that how do you get the offer out there and understand the offer because that again is not just for young people that is for families including adults to access and to reach the metrics I think which we have a lot around 0-2 we probably need to make sure they're more mature because we want to see some of the impact but we have the resource we've now got to make sure that mechanism is being used appropriately and fully just like I want to give a picture of what's happening now when you raise anything to adult social care now people don't get answer yeah when you put in that even safeguarding concern I raised to my committee last time yeah even I did talk to John also when you did the concern input you're supposed to get some feedback or something answer from the adult social care we receive your complaint or receive something we'll come back within two weeks or something nothing was happening this is this needs to be looked against our decision system and people from third party organizations whoever made all public or anything they should entitled to get the feedback or answer from the officers this is what we're looking for can I just make sure I will bring this back to John Everson about adult social care and the fever I believe you've asked for this am I right to go to the health care scrutiny and you haven't had this report yet so was it the recommendations and you want you know twice a year I'll make sure that comes back thank you yes councillor you've got soundstrong and I think you'll not be surprised that my question is going to be on child-friendly Islington a third or 33% of the actions do mentioned SEND so again working with families about making sure that SEND is definitely considered and included and if we look at that SEND strategy one of the high priority areas suggest that as working with families and schools what they would like to see is additional resource provisions on site one of our targets from SEND strategy says that we should have nine by the start of September 2025 it would be good to know where we are with additional resource provision thank you thank you so the additionally resource to our provision we do have three of those again north central and south they were a pilot and they aren't necessarily in each and every area there is the ambition so I would say that SEND strategy is most certainly an ambition what you do know from children's scrutiny is that exponential growth in demand around SEND which is most certainly outstripped the high needs block therefore the spend which primarily goes on special schools those in-house but also those young people who go out of borough so the high needs block primarily is spent on that what we did get was that capital investment where over two thirds of the schools made those bids for a significant amount of money that was for schools to use we couldn't therefore use that directly for ARPs I think the learning from ARPs is strong however it's not necessarily a default position to say that each and every one the learning from the pilot will suggest that it's not always the best practice to use an ARP if we've looked at what goes on at Duncan and other parts it really is quite specialists the need needs to be them we're holding a lot of those young people so they don't then go into specialists what we now need to broker and you'll again have seen is that inclusive nature where the wellbeing bill is talking about inclusion inclusive practice so we've most certainly looked at the money that we have had not necessarily going into ARPs but we have used it for capital investment across our schools schools have made that bid so that it can be directed and targeted so just to follow up I think it's really important and I think that is something that we do have in Essenton which is an approach of co-production and obviously listening to residents so it'd be really good to get any feedback from you in terms of what is some champions the some forums view on RAPs and would be like to see more of those because again like I said the target for September from that really ambitious strategy was to have nine this year but it was also to have between I think three and five for this year as well just repeat that last bit I think one of you I'm saying how we worked with the community in Essenton to get their understanding and perspective how ARPs are working or have we kind of been led through the finance side thank you I mean I'm you know the voice of the parent the carer is a strong one in Essenton I mean I think you have to look at the most recent CQC report and some of the general practice that goes on I would say with the parent forum if I put aside some of the sort of recent practice what I would say is it's been a strong forum it doesn't just come through from parent care reform it's come through from the parent carer group who I met yesterday but also those parent champions that procreation work that we do is something that we value and we have what I would say is that ARPs aren't a universal offer our schools are the universal offer so therefore ARPs are not the panacea of solving a SEND crisis what is need and where we have to listen to our schools primarily is that notional first £6,000 which we are now trialling with that £3,2 million that came through from the settlement about how we provide schools with that uplift to £11,000 so that they can hold those young people so it's not about more specialist provision or more special schools it's about inclusion and then providing schools with the funding which let's be honest they've not had since 2014 seen that uplift hasn't taken place so we're most certainly trialling a very different inclusive approach but we're again getting feedback from schools parents carers around that but I think the challenge is right but we always need to procreate together and that we've done with the estate but also about how we use this notional funding to provide that uplift within school which I think is probably more enabling than more satellites just to get a bit of clarity as well would you say that AOPs are for SEND students would you say that AOPs are for SEND students they are for the most complex young people that we can hold in mainstream but they aren't a substitute for special education for they are for SEND pupils with that complex need and again it's about inclusion so that they can be with mainstream you see all of our special schools are co-located they're not co-located by accident they're there because of that integration and we want that inclusion to take place so yes they are SEND children but of complex need thank you for that chair councillor Abraham from Arsenal Ward sadly I think some of these questions sit under empowering people and I commend the council for their commitment to develop innovative and varied ways to capture the resident voice and I think we should always be a resident and centred council my concern was around engagement and so it talks about the successes a few different you know the welcome grant project panel and I know councillor Halloran just spoke about the climate panel and I was wondering when we are doing this act of recruitment is that recruitment reflective of Isminton's diversity and how do we I'm really interested in measuring success and so what are those success measures when we are either doing a consultation and recruitment of resident voices and have we ever gone to a place where we're saying actually we're not comfortable about this because this does not reflect this is overwhelmingly made or it's overwhelmingly one demographic and so I'm just really keen that we talk about making sure that we've got resident voices but are we getting the right varied residents in the room I mentioned the climate panel because that was where I think that was a game changer because we went out we didn't do it we got a company to do it so it I believe it went out to I could be wrong nine or ten thousand residents so I 100% now know that that works because there's people on that panel voices that I never seen I never heard from so just for example one of the speakers the other night was a Muslim woman who was saying I want to do this in my mosque now and it was about greening the borough and greening those areas so in between the speeches I was chatting to people you could really tell that that works the way that it the way the people they the way they engaged and people were chosen so I kind of mean I'm happy to get some information send you that of how they went out how they shared it and the small grants as well was I'd use an example we went to one estate and there's 300 residents and it was a bit of door locking they engaged with people and they were trying to get people to lead it and it was like and there was one community centre nearby and they said oh we never use that and it's literally on their doorstep you know like we didn't think that was for us it really brought the community together so I want to hear from those voices that reflect our community that are our community not just the usual people if you're involved if you're interested in the climate you know everybody needs to be thinking about the climate and I'm just using that as an example and so even housing because I had housing you need to go out how are you getting the people in the estates the people in the community are you getting the right people and we're working differently we're working around people with families so some of that engagement was done on weekends and things and we made we took all the feedback what was the barrier is it childcare is it this when does it take you so happy to really go into details of that but trust me there's enough councils here that's all they're saying what about my community we reflected of it and it is a big community and it's those voices that never speak out that we need to hear from that's where we're at and I truly think that you can hold us to account on that you said and and so my my there was there was one line you said that slightly piqued my interest which is actually the climate panel and the example you use with the climate panel is that we use an external organization and again it's not for you to it will be interesting and I can ask through the chair if we can get some more information about the process of this because I want to embed some of that I don't want to be paying a company to do effective engagement and consultation of our residents when I think some of that stuff needs to be kind of embedded across the council with some of our team so I love this idea about the climate panel let's steal their ideas feed it back to our team and let us try and take what the good bits were and not I'm just conscious there was another thing that I was very interested in and it's caused me to like this and it's caused the point of the commissioning and the community And it's caused to be the community centre's review and I think it would be really interesting because I can see that you've highlighted that and I know that this has been ongoing for a while and so I think I just wanted to use this opportunity to get kind of some more tangible and concrete next steps, timelines, because I'm conscious that we may then go into next year and as someone who's not as experienced as councillor clerk but has sat on this committee since I was elected four years ago and I'm still nowhere near getting to that final point of understanding where the community centres and I've got community centres in my ward as you know which I think could really be brought back into use but I know we're not about to kind of renovate it because we don't know what the review is going to say so we're stuck in this middle point of we're not using it but we're not not using it and it's a bit funny so could you just be really clear with me if you may, what are the next steps for the community centre review and the timelines and when can we expect to hear some kind of tangible kind of definitive next steps Good evening Councillor Ben let me pick up and we can come back in on both your questions so yeah you're right we need to embed consultation engagement we need to be able to do this ourselves where it's appropriate sometimes it makes sense to work with parties for independence but as we've said I think for us all to assess the impact that the climate change panel apart from dealing with specifics which is a bit of a benchmark we need to get better as you say learn more so there was absolutely some learning and I think the test is always let's take that learning back and as far as possible do it ourselves but yeah work with a third party where it makes sense that's something to come back to and work also for yourself and colleagues to me where the other bit which I think we should learn from is that there was I think some really positive work around shaping the agenda and the focus of the work together climate change could frankly create a load of hostages to fortune stuff that is unaffordable uncontrollable by us and actually I think it worked pretty well to get a sense of an agenda that we could influence together as a community so I think there's a range of things we can test and learn and apply but I guess watch this space on the community sense I'll start and a leader may want to come in so I guess I've got responsibility so I've been asked to pick up from an office perspective the programme so it will be with me obviously working with all of you going forward and as you'd expect me to say just having picked it up I will come back to answer the programme but I guess actually I share personally your and I know Uma does as well the need to get on with it it's complex there are absolutely some opportunities some risk in the provision but I get and for all yourself and all all councils you've got those buildings sitting there you want to be able to do something with it and make it and I get the sort of frustration so I think what I can say is it's with me now I think you know well enough I will get on and do it but more to come but rest assured we're going to get on with it and we will come back and do it the right way and do it together and just to reassure you with the climate panel I believe we've got some funding to do it that way so it's like we're not trust me we're not going to be using funding like that so why would you not use it that way but there was lots of learning and you're right it's got to be embedded right across the council all engagement whatever director so sorry one of the major risks for local authorities across London is temporary accommodation and I'm conscious that we don't have the relevant corporate director here one of the things I found quite interesting as an average social media user was a tweet from the leader of Greenwich two days ago and I just thought it was really interesting so it's probably something to take away rather than to answer but his tweet was that they've had a staggering 84% reduction in hotel use in only 18 months and they only have three families left in hotel temporary accommodation and he said this is London's biggest temporary accommodation success story and I just thought that was interesting it's probably one to take forward but there was a line in the papers that we received which I really really commend the council for because it said we do not have any residents in B&B which is good and I'm wondering if that also extends to hotels which I thought was interesting but my point and I know colleagues on this committee will know I often talk about benchmarking and peer learning but if I could ask humbly that we talked to some of our colleagues because I'm very selfish in that I want Islington to be London's biggest success story and so I just thought that tweet was very interesting and made me want to come here today and see how we can be better than Greenwich so please do take that away sorry we are far better and I know the leader of Greenwich and you could and I mean TA is a problem right across councils but for Greenwich just yeah I'm just I think we might need to get someone to tweet something out trust me we do actually other councils and even I'm going to name the office that Ian Swift talks to the government on every single London councils we do people go to us for advice on this and we're part of a programme how can we reduce TA and homelessness so yeah I'm sorry Greenwich but isn't in a far better Council of Pandora St Mary's and St James's you actually kind of touched on the question that I was going to talk about just now and I feel incredibly proud incredibly proud that we don't have any of our families in hotels because I work with a borough and constantly the amount of families that are in hotels and how much it's costing Camden Council is unbelievable but I want to touch on the reality of I'm working with lots of residents that are in temporary accommodation and when they are in temporary accommodation no matter how good our children's services are because believe you me I know that we are excelling with under-fired but when your housing situation is so bad it just messes everything up in terms of your mental health goes down and you can't see anything that is good out there I've got residents that I'm working with at the moment who are in temporary accommodation and when they're in temporary accommodation as you know they can't bid and then obviously it affects the children as well and the list is something like they're there for three to four five years and I appreciate that we have a housing crisis but is there a benchmark where we can kind of keep families not so long in temporary accommodation families can bid in TA can they? yeah families can bid in TA okay so I'll have to put some cases forward where they've not been able to bid because they've been told that because they're in temporary accommodation they can't bid when you're in TA you have to be assessed so if it's a homeless application I believe it's 56 days you know but once you're assessed and in TA and if you I mean happy to send us those particular cases it might be that there is a lot of families in TA that don't know that actually can make an application to go on the bidding system yeah because I've said a few cases but they can most certainly bid while they are in temporary okay so I think the information needs to go out a bit better then because people that are reaching me have no idea and obviously I'm helping them do that so there's obviously lots of miscommunication where we have lots of things to be proud of absolutely we are obviously missing out people that would not normally reach me and I'm kind of just meeting them and the other question that's not related to this is because I am champion for women and girls I'm obviously very proud to see that we have 300 safe havens but what I would like to know is that are they being used how are they being used and are we going to be rolling out more from the borough I've just written it down because I'm not going to make up the answer but I'm sure we would have some of that data that we can put back I think with the neighbourhoods approach the population health piece that clearly talks about borough safe haven but also place of safety so I will take that back chair if that's okay and we'll come back directly to Councillor Pandell Thank you I'll take Councillor Hayes and then I will sort of wrap up with one final question Councillor Hayes Thank you very much indeed Councillor Hayes from Clerkenwell My question is partly to reflect the great successes that there have been from the IMAX team and from voluntary sector partners in bringing that additional money in and I think that benefits the individual household and we know that there are long term benefits for people's health and well-being if they've actually got the income that they should be getting but obviously most of that money gets spent in the local economy as well so it's additionally improving the economy of the area and I just wanted to ask a bit more about how the longer term strategy tackling the underlying causes of poverty and economic well-being will be developed I think we've had some really interesting stuff about how residents have been engaged in some of our other strategic work but just what that and the round table sessions were really informative and as you say Stephen that figure of 150 million that is almost certainly and probably that's an underestimate out there that residents in the borough are entitled to but for all sorts of reasons have not been able to secure that income that they should be getting and that would have a dramatic impact on our local economy so I'm just interested in some more steps on that and rather cheekily chair as a couple of other colleagues have brought in a second topic I'm really interested I see in the report it is very disappointing on the recycling figure that we are plateauing I know it's common to other boroughs I know a lot of thoughts going into it I know there are issues like the change to the green waste collection that are probably impacted on that but I also see that there will be a new recycling strategy coming out this summer that it was also about whether there's learning from the climate panel that might be relevant to that and what other ways we've got of trying to make that a whole community approach thank you very much thank you Councillor Hayes I can probably cover both of those and thank you for your own support on our work around policy really appreciated to answer your question and maybe for wider benefits we do a lot of good stuff already but we took a decision last year that at a level of strength but still a huge amount to do we would challenge ourselves so we got a series of external experts in to review our work and that was really helpful from two perspectives one some really positive validation of what we're doing but also some good critique about how we can move further forward and we've taken all of that and I'm certainly very happy to share it more generally we shared it with executive and had joint board conversations to start to shape the ending poverty strategy that I talked about earlier on and that in simple terms is both building on what we've done because it is working but we need to do more so IMAX is working and making a difference but as we've just talked about there is a lot more to do it absolutely comes back to spaces as well and thinking about how we link our community spaces to some of our support services it picks up on John's question about access and the way that we engage and support and some work to connect our services and spaces and then I think some crucial work because we absolutely cannot do it ourselves we absolutely need to work with our particular our BCS partners and to some degree our statutory partners but crucially we need to do it together clearly with our local communities because it's about supporting those communities to live independent lives to thrive and as you say contribute to the economy so all that has come together we have a broad brush strategy and in the next few weeks we've now appointed a programme lead we're all producing a programme plan I'm very happy to share that because we one thing I do know is I need everybody's support here to move that forward so Councillor Hayes if that's okay we'll come back but that would be something we would it's a timely question because we will be sharing that with everybody because I know everybody around this table will absolutely have an interest in moving that forward if I can chair I'm happy to respond to the recycling question as best as I can yeah I mean I guess the final bit we do like every waste authority we're coming around to that cycle of producing our next strategy which I think is sort of summer autumn time so that will sort of consolidate where we are and drive us forward and around recycling you know as the annual paper said we're not where we are incidentally we're about we're about 30% I think at year end that is about the average across inner London boroughs so we're not an outlier and we all fundamentally have the same issues in a London area and as the paper says we're doing we're making some investments we know where some of the issues are I think what the paper doesn't talk to one of the other challenges we've got is what what colleagues are referred to as contamination of the so basically mixing up recyclables and then that makes it hard to measure and test and part of that is about some of our technology and all of the kit we bring and the support from from the waste disposal side but there's inevitably you know some more work we need to do about behaviour change as well and supporting our residents as well but giving them physical stuff if you're on that it's easier if you live in a house isn't it it's not if you're on the 15th floor so it's that combination so I think there's a range of challenges we've got and that strategy needs to incredibly set out how we'll carry on carry on turning the dial but I think it's worth making the point that we're we're around we're not we're not you know fundamentally performing more poorly than other in the London boroughs which I probably have similar similar challenges but there's a lot a lot to do but I guess watch the space for that strategy to hopefully take us to the next stage so finally I really welcome some reflections on the mission based approach it's something that is new for the council it's an approach that has been very much championed by the national government we are effectively halfway towards our targets in 2026 we have since the missions were drafted a new leader who for all I know may have her own views on the missions and how they are shaping the way that we as a council are looking to deliver services and set priorities so really as a sort of final almost helicopter view just stepping back a little bit from the detailed data and just looking at our approach with the missions do you know are there any final reflections on how the mission based approach is shaping what we are doing as a council and as a political administration I actually really like the mission about approach and also just to reassure people when I became leader we've had a couple of away days we've talked are they the right missions we've really gone into the detail and I think there was a really collective responsibility and sort of a buy in for it as well and I do feel that it is it's all our values as well you know like the empowerment is what what we've heard on the doorstep what we've heard we want to engage with people of course we want to be a child friendly virus so I actually really to me I just I want to see it'd be very interesting this report so it's from April to see where we are in even six months 12 months time I think there's so much work because it was at first as well it's a big culture change and I think it was something Councillor Pandora said and others have said at different committees of how are we the empowering people it's very hard as a council when you're just used to doing things to people we want to empower people whether it's to take responsibility for your own health we you know we are you know most people think the council just collect rubbish they don't realise unless you're using the children's services and all the other great things we do and I really believe that when we tested it out there with let's talk Islington and residents and I think people really like our mission I personally think it's the way to go and I think they're balanced right to have that amount you know rather than having 10-15 missions because everything fits into the missions and each scrutiny can sort of you know the E&R scrutiny the has and scrutiny you know can actually really tackle what our missions and you just mentioned recycling I know there's going to be a really big push because when we talk to the community they want to help us to up our recycling targets and if that means doing a big launch a big campaign and it's all working but like we keep saying we can't do things on our own we've got to do it for our residents and you said about flats on the 15th floor what about if we all our faith partners want to help us each you know everybody wants to play their part so I do think and we've got a lot of community champions Pandora she talks to everyone champions all around the borough you know and she's talking to those people that we might not talk to because they come to her they might be in her community in other communities so the missions to me we've got it right we've got it balanced we've tested them ourselves you know you know in our way days our cmt's our leadership so yeah as a leader personally I'm for these missions so happy to take any criticism or feedback from you John I can see you just quickly to add and echo what the leaders just said I think the challenge at White Rally going forward and the art is making sure that each of those missions talk to one another crossover I've seen the silo I think the child friendly one most certainly has greener healthier inclusion and safety but you know you should be able to look across the five domains and think about how they enabling each of the others and I think when we go into budget setting for this next cycle we're seeing more imaginative innative way the part that will be challenged from corporate directors to each other but also making sure they speak to and work across so it's lateral as well as in silos thank you which brings me to my second question which is very much how has our approach as a corporate entity changed because of the missions John you've hit on the point that quite clearly let's just take empowering people cuts across every single directorate and the concern frequently expressed in committees generally is silos our services talking to each other because if we're serious about the missions I know we are serious about the missions it's all about breaking down those silos looking at people as individuals rather than a top down siloed mentality so thinking ahead to the next 12 months what are we going to do differently thanks Councillor Wayne it is our key challenge as officers and members and I think differently I think more of it so more of that breaking down more of that joining up it's not an excuse it's a reality to do that in an organisation like a council where its complexity takes time and we've had to we still need to drive forward a range of culture changes in the way that we work you've got local authorities an amalgam of loads of professions and individuals and all who've got specific and collaborative work to do and getting the balance between if you like the specific and the collaborative is a challenge so more of it and I guess the other thing I'd say is the benefit to your first question but answering your second one the advantage of the missions is it's focused on what's important and we talk all the time if it's not written down a mission we shouldn't be doing it in simple terms and we've touched on it tonight the context of public service delivery is as hard as it's ever been and therefore it's essential that A we're focused on things you can't do everything so we're saying these are important and then as you say crucially for the important things to be as impactful as they can be it's about that join so I think there's absolutely things differently but it's more of it and your rights challenges we expect the scrutiny going forward and there's more to do but I guess we know what we're focused on now thank you thank you and thank you all for coming here tonight it's the first report of this type I'm sure we all look forward to next year's report and seeing the progress towards hitting the targets John Oon Oon and Stephen if you want to stay stay but by all means go don't feel you have to stay for the remaining agenda items and thanks for coming to the committee tonight yes very much on topic and we can then move on to item C3 the scrutiny sorry item C2 scrutiny and isn't an annual report it's very much a report that is what it is it sets out what the various scrutiny committees including this one have been doing over the course of the year I'm not going to ask Sam to introduce it unless you want your moment of glory because it's fairly self-explanatory but what I do want to provide the opportunity for is if any members have any comments about the report or I'm looking particularly at the scrutiny chairs if there are any aspects of what they have achieved over the past year that either isn't reflected in the report or they really want to highlight so I don't know Councillor if you want to say anything at this state hopefully you have to but yeah okay just yeah regarding this year we looked because I think you know that when we started this year financial year there is a struggling in our finance especially adult social care overspend and everything and then we did talk to why the problem was the problem was housing shortage the main money is killing there then we chose why not we chose this topic yeah we did discuss we visited shelter we visited local everything and we and now we made a recommendation there is one two I mentioned one is we made in future in development our planning should consult with our social care for their needs because if you I think I remember there is a London white law if you have 900 yeah there should be accommodation tag but I first thought we're going to put the tag 500 for is not better then we discuss it's better to have anything any development happening should be consult with the adult social care this is one thing and also we discussed I think everyone knows that there is funding was withdrawn from shelter accommodation support service which make really significant impact because you can see nearly 16 shelter accommodation is purpose built accommodation yeah now because of funding is withdrawn like on the housing association yeah they use the different name for older people accommodation there is no they don't take any people has support need more severe supplement or something wish to get this is a and we recommend in future if anything this kind of decisions make should be consulted properly because we need to think about the impact what's going to happen but I should declare that I work on housing about that I should declare this one and I know this one this is to think especially as me as a chair I am no longer chair for next year what I focus on my committee I focus on the community issue what the community getting problem because I work in the gas route I came from my politics from the community prospect and I choose the topic with my committee and also I choose issue which is impacting council how we can help the council to make decision as like this year one our what is called housing older people housing this is helping council to make good decision for this one and also another thing is like our spent which is you and me discussed and in my committee also discussed and now I was told that we are balanced budget for adult social care this is I did my committee and hoping in future Joe will continue this kind of thing and one more thing which is my committee when I was there because adult social care and primary care are two subjects we are covering here but as we are counsellor we are responsible for adult social care we have influenced primary care lots of thing is coming from the central government primary care like hospital and other things they come and before they wish to get more subject from that side less subject for the adult social care and I said no we should because we if anything like if someone died in the care room anything is come directly to us that's why it should more scrutinize adult social care yes we need to I'm not saying that we should not do Houghtington Hospital or other but we can influence them don't mean but we can't impose anything to that this is a problem that we need to understand thank you thank you I'll be brief chair just on that obviously we look at attendance and I'm really thankful that we have been because it's unearthed some of the complexities that I feel a lot of us on the committee weren't necessarily aware of but I'm positive of the recommendations that we have that would address the different issues that has come up on the committee but also I think just in general and I think other committees or scrutiny chairs could probably also agree with as well I think what Ruth was saying if we address some of the issues such as poverty in Islington a lot of the other issues that we scrutinise would also be addressed I mean seeing where we are in Islington nationally with child poverty and adult psychosis I think if we start to really address the child poverty and poverty in the borough I think when we scrutin our topics even such as attendance we do see that actually it disproportionately affects families that are on low incomes and I'm sure that goes across adult and social care and housing so so that's all I've got to really add on that so just on that and really thinking ahead to next year and the work of scrutiny in general next year one option would be for scrutiny committees to maybe coordinate the work that they are doing and inequality poverty is absolutely central to our challenges in this borough and it may be that a joined up approach between the scrutiny committees would be something that really would work particularly because it's the final year of the electoral cycle it means that we need to get scrutiny reports concluded by the time of the elections and that maybe some focus work between the committees sharing the load may mean that we have a really effective set of scrutinies for next year just on scrutiny and scrutiny generally we're moving into phase two of the scrutiny review where we take a really long hard look not so much at the structures of scrutiny but outcomes and how we can make scrutiny effective in the culture of scrutiny there is a working group that has been set up really from the committee chairs to look at that and the culture of scrutiny we're bringing in some former scrutiny chairs to bring their experience to bear but it's an open invitation for everybody to contribute to it particularly those that have had experience over the years of what good scrutiny looks like because that's where we want to get to a constructive scrutiny culture that adds value to the council so that's a stream of work for next year before we I hope formally note the report any final comments on it I don't see any so I think something we need to do is formally note the report which we do and that brings us on to item C3 the scrutiny review recommendation way we're going to I think deal with this first I'm going to invite any general observations on the recommendations as a whole in particular if anybody around the committee feels that we have missed a topic out from the recommendations or there is something that needs to be in the recommendations and at the moment isn't in the recommendations and then we will hopefully briefly go through each recommendation in turn just to make sure that we've got the drafting right on it so does anybody at this stage before we go through one by one the recommendations want to make any general observations about where we've got to on the review anything missing any area where you think there ought to be a recommendation and there ain't one at the moment so quickly I do think it's actually a really strong set of recommendations I think they do reflect what we've had over the last year just as you think there might be possibly looking at a sense of adding a bit of urgency because I think we heard today that there's potentially £150 million that could be gathered for residents through claiming benefits I'm pretty sure if we get this right we can easily match that sums in terms of social value as well and we know the difference that that would make so let's think about how we can maybe incorporate that into one of the existing recommendations next as we go through see if there is scope for emphasising that so I think therefore let's kick off with the recommendations I'm going to mention Councillor Hyde who's not with us tonight but she's made a number of observations to me that I will circulate but one observation is about the order of the recommendations and whether we want to think at all about what is recommendation one what is recommendation two rather than the order that we have set out so just as we're going through the recommendations any views on that please feed in so let me go and scroll through to the draft recommendations number one social value must be considered as a flexible creative opportunity to tackle inequality foster reciprocity and maximise Islington pound to embed Islington core values in its supply chain all suppliers must demonstrate a commitment to align with Islington priorities and mission whether that should be missions I don't know I will very much I think leave that to those who have expertise but are we happy with that as a recommendation excellent then number two social value must be embedded across departments the council should consider dedicated resources to provide excellent contract management and to negotiate and secure the delivery of commitments and the introduction of social value champions to drive the social value agenda and champion its additional value generating potential any observations at all would it be great if we had social value champion in two weeks from now it's and the point is because of the way in which dispatches have to be done to the council we're probably not going to be able to do that but I see no reason why we can't prioritise it with a view to use the first available opportunity that a social in terms and I'm assuming you are looking at a councillor being the social value a social value champion no reason why we can't do that first available opportunity thank you chair I remember when we were discussing these recommendations that was something that I felt particularly strong about my what I had intended and I think there was strong support in the room is that we embed social value champions across directorates and so this wasn't a women and girls champion young people's champion but it was making sure that the officers who are closest to the delivery are able to champion some of that social value and I don't know if it's worth adding a line after social value champions across directorates to drive the social value agenda and champion the additional value generating potential but I just felt like the essence of what I had said has been captured in the round I think it might be worth just making it absolutely abundantly clear to those who weren't in the room what the view of this committee work is I would say that was my recollection of the discussion that the focus was very much on making sure that champions were embedded across directorates that doesn't of course exclude there being a social value champion as a councillor with that role of really I suppose I'm trying to think of a better word than championing social value but that needs somebody who actually wants to step up to that role because the champions role in my view only really works if something like councillor Pandor is absolutely passionate about what they are doing and then it really does make a difference do you have a view on whether we actually want a councillor champion or whether actually we want the focus to be at directorate level rather than a political level so my view is as you can imagine I don't think this is the role of an individual councillor and I think it cuts across the work of this committee and I think you will see in subsequent recommendations there is an annual report that will come to this committee about how social value is being delivered and I'm not it's not the hill I'm going to die on I think if you were to put a vote I'll probably vote against the adoption of a social value champion as a councillor but I think you've taken my point very strongly that I think this is something that officers need to do and give officers the necessary space in order to champion some of this work in actual fact we want to be specific in the wording or not if I'm not wrong chair I think there's a separate process for establishing different types of champions because I remember when I requested for a different champion I was told that there's a different process for it so I don't know if it could be a recommendation is my point because there was this conversation that I had before about something but then where does it end in terms of champions so I think it might be probably worth not recommending that at this stage until we're very clear on whether we can

good to know but I'm a bit bewilded that having covered this topic this year knowing the importance of social value that amongst this amazing council we couldn't find someone who would want to challenge this and I think it's about practicalities rather than any lack of people who would like to fulfil the role just thinking about the recommendations rather than being too specific one of the advantages of a phrase like the introduction of social value champions is that it leaves the door open for all options and I think it is something very much worth the executive member thinking about what is the best way of getting it embedded in the culture of the council certainly I think a clear steer that we wanted embedded in directorates and just thinking about the word social value must be embedded across departments and the introduction of social value champions across directorates I think is a useful couple of words to add in because it makes it clear that the committee is expecting it to be embedded as a cross cutting measure as opposed to just a sort of narrow CWB siloed measure but I think the phrase introduction of social value champions leaves the door open to the discussions that we need to have on just the constitutional mechanics and Stephen does that seem to make sense to you as an approach I think yeah very sensible I'm not going to wade into the conversation about council of champions but someone who is very passionate about social value I have to do that and as you say there is clearly an executive member responsible who is our collective champion completely agree with the principles and the ethos of the recommendation I suppose to chairing the committee just for clarity we've got my team who obviously own this corporately and champion it and we do have already a network of practitioners who's champion it absolutely that needs to be strengthened and made more consistent but just for the importance of doubt there is absolutely a range of champions doing some brilliant stuff which I know you've heard about during the evidence but you're absolutely right to identify that that needs to be embedded strengthened made more consistent and there is more to do and part of that comes from it so yes I think chair maybe twink around with the wording will give keep the outcome but give you what you need and we'll obviously respond to it via the executive response in the normal way so with that clarification and with the addition of the words across directorates I'll be happy with recommendation two recommendation three the corporate management team must consider governance arrangements to ensure oversight of delivery of social value commitments including the option to embed in the commissioning and procurement board ongoing performance reviews of social values in contracts for goods and services observation from councillor Hyde I quote I notice no figures stipulate percentage value of contracts I wonder if we want to recommend that there is a sliding scale or anticipate that one should be developed by two years after the operation legislation has been in operation or some such or do we quite deliberately want to keep it quite open because of course there are some high value contracts where there may be very limited scope for social value and conversely some relatively low value contracts where there are huge opportunities and we don't want to box ourselves in I think that's absolutely right we want some flexibility don't we the commissioning procurement board has a threshold for new contracts of £250,000 so that's the total contract value over time so that would be an obvious starting point that's the threshold for the CPP to look at things so we could apply that and that's a reasonable level of value that you would expect a reasonable degree of social value so that might be a sort of a simple sort of test but with that caveat that you could have a smaller contract that has more and worth looking at but that would just be a thought about the practicality of how we could manage that I do recall a thing from one of the first evidence that we had where it was a suggestion that we actually drop that threshold to approximately £100,000 and I think that might be a practice that is happening across other boroughs as well and I think I do recall as well that kind of have an expectation of it as a minimum of 20% but I completely appreciate you want to have that flexibility within the contracts as well so whether minimum is the right word and if and if we want to use the numbers I think it's quite useful to have us there so I'm going to turn to Stephen because what we don't want is an unworkable number we want to be able I'm quite attracted to the idea of a figure where we would usually expect there to be a process kicking in but I don't want the figure to be so low as to just completely swamp the work so would 100,000 has been banded out 250,000 welcome it would it would just only relatively recently reduced the threshold from a half a million to 250,000 a hundred we would have we'd have hundreds and hundreds of them and there would be little value in it because the whole 250 by the way is a sort of recognised value in the new procurement act it's something that's referenced put simply as a material decision in inverted commerce so there is some relevance of that figure and just to give the committee a sense by moving from 500 to 250 we've moved from monthly to fortnightly so it's a lot of work and I think there would be limited value in terms of what you're trying to effectively hold us all to account to deliver social value from our third party spend so my advice would be far away from me it's absolutely for the committee to recommend but our response is likely to be that using that 250 K threshold would be sensible but also I think would help us deliver what we're trying to achieve here if that makes sense I think the sphere is we quite like a figure of 250 000 to be embedded into the recommendation probably expressed with the caveat usual expectation or something along those lines I'm going to say this is not in any way very I think the recommendation is great and I guess what the committee needs to be aware of and we can manage this through the way we have the interplay and come back via executive in a normal way but this is something I personally agree with this is whether we are in ways there's a shift and it's more but important work because the way we work at the moment the governance is predominantly focused on new commissioning activity so the primary job of CPB is when we're going out to recommission or purchase X to provide governance around that decision it doesn't regularly look at existing contract underspend it absolutely should do and that's something we're moving forward and if you in support but it's just worth we neither at the moment look corporately at core contracts in terms of their core deliverables or their social value stuff not corporately by the way we've got lots of colleagues who look at these things for the points of doubt but it's just worth that makes sense it's worth bearing in mind that it's something I completely agree with but I will inevitably thinking about the response need to look at resources and practicalities because it's just worth saying this is an extension in the activity both of that group and therefore us as an organisation that is in no way saying it's not important but it's the reality of where we are so just wanted to sort of provide that context of that so I'm just taking soundings on where we are we can effectively leave the recommendation as is but with a clear sense from the committee as to what our expectations are we can embed figures in there but I think if we're going to do that it's not fair for you to draft something up on the hoof now that social value and contracts for business services exceeding £250,000 and how do we feel about that that's the beauty of being concise and simple would we be comfortable with adding the exceeding £250,000 I think it's quite important again from meetings that we had at the beginning of the cycle we found that it's quite hard to measure how much social value we have so I think actually having a pin of a number to which we can judge and see how much we get from contracts within that range starting from that range to be supportive of adding a number then that's what we'll do I think that's the consensus of the committee so if we can add that exceeding £250,000 threshold or words to that effect we can agree that and we can agree recommendations three question four CREAS must receive an annual report on procurement activity this could include evidence of well flow and a heat map outline the geographical distribution of spend by award to show how procurement spend benefited each area KPIs that could include social value measures supplier performance equality diversity and inclusion and resident impact should be considered I think the obvious observation is we will have to see how a report like that goes because until you draft a report the practicalities might not be obvious but a sphere there is provided as to type of report I would envisage it coming later in the cycle because it's going to take a bit of time for the report to be conceived and then actually drafted because it's a new report so I think we probably be looking for any report to come quite late in the municipal year to give everybody the chance to think about it once the recommendations have been accepted or rejected but with that rider are we happy with the recommendation bearing in mind there ain't going to be a report any time soon because of course the report has got to be considered an executive response so it's not as though we're going to be I think seeing it in the 25-26 reporting cycle don't worry so we can agree four I take it five the council must consider the needs of residents and local communities when it asks for social value appropriate tools and measures should be utilised to establish what those needs are a minimum ask should be considered for social value and climate change any observations on that I don't see any so we can agree that number six the council should develop a bank of asks that reflects the needs of communities and can be drawn on in negotiations a social value fund could be established for those who don't have the capability to provide social value and I'm just going to add some comments from councillor Hyde she said I think recommendation six is hugely important it needs to be in my opinion first or second on the list or emphasised in some other way if we want to be a leading council on this we should be ahead of the curve in enabling those seeking procurement contracts to more easily imagine how they might fulfil our social value clauses in terms of the order I suspect there's no great magic in the order they're all recommendations and they're all of equal importance but it is something that's new that we are recommending and it's certainly something for my part that came out absolutely loud and clear from the sessions that this was something that we can do and should do Stephen how do you want to come in thanks no we should absolutely do so and when we first set out a few years ago we were very clear that there's no point in doing it unless it's tangible and real and it's measurable and it comes back to all these other things there's too much chat about social value being sort of slightly amorphous things that coming back to some of the other recommendations is entirely unclear whether it makes a difference or an impact on a community so that that's always been a core principle and therefore this recommendation is completely supportive the observation I make and the recommendation is absolutely fine and one I completely support is that like anything if it's too long a list of asks it risks diluting that so and it becomes a bit of a wish list and ultimately these are commercial conversations that we're having and I think just say for example that going into the detail where our asks at the moment typically focus on local employment local supply chain development sustainability sort of green related things and skills typically so and that's deliberate because those are the things that we make a fundamental difference sort of locally to our communities and our local SMEs so none of that precludes this but I guess just again for the community to think about like the rest of the world if we make the list too big it dilutes the impact so we need to focus on what we think is important there may be a distinction between a list of broad principles or aspirations which is a public list and a list that officers have in their back pocket of we know that for example in Cannonbury Ward there is a need for this we know that there is a need in St Peter's Canal side for this facility it's about I think having a sense of once you get into the conversation with procurers being able to give real world examples to be able to steer the exercise so we get something that we want on a strategic level in the council rather than a bland offer and it's to actually help particularly new bidders not familiar with what we value in giving concrete examples of what we want going to bring councillor Hayes in now but I think that's something that we maybe need to think about how it works and then we can come back in thank you and I completely take your point that it can't just be pages of random things I think this is a really exciting proposal I would really love to see it tie into the strategy for ending poverty so that we try and use as many levers as possible because there is an evidence base of what works and it's resources that preclude just going let's bring in 150 million but obviously there will be some other areas around environment and other key missions where there might be things but I think if the more closely aligned the asks align to other strategic missions hopefully we avoid that kind of drift but I agree I think sometimes there's a load of evidence base about what would work but we can't expect all contractors or suppliers to know what they are and trying to utilise that conversation and that knowledge would be really important Thank you Chair I wonder if because listening to you I think it's the second part around the funds of where we're effectively moving to and I think you've talked about the evidence is a bit of a yes we've got the core secured liberals around jobs and supply chain and then we've got this combination of where it's all a bit too painful and whatever we'll have and it's almost like an offset payment if that makes sense and then what do we do with that where they give us cash instead effectively and that so I'm wondering if it might be helpful is to focus this on the social fund and that concept where you've got this scenario where we're having a debate there is some value it's not going to be one of our if you like our typical things that we secure around jobs and supply chain and then we could have the thing in Cananbury or in Tuffman Park or wherever it is that we can then allocate because what's fair to say when we're having those if you like the other type of conversation okay so what we've got potentially a contribution what do we do with there and obviously we find something useful but actually this would give us something evidence behind so if that makes sense there's a bit of a nuance between the core things we're trying to secure and I'm pretty sure knowing you all that you'd be wanting to do that and it's employment it's a good job through our spend for a local resident who clearly could be there in the bar of my definition as opposed to them when it's that social fund it could be there a bit like we do with SIL not too different to that we have things so if that makes sense could we apply that and then absolutely like SIL we could like for your war plans all the bottom up projects as and when we have that we secure that type of social value does that make sense that difference it doesn't and if it can go Jeanine sorry I was actually going to mention just how we're kind of quite strategic with us still in terms of the area and then we think about what the need is in that specific area and how we address that I think in terms of the bank of us sorry Nick I was just thinking I completely appreciate we don't want to make things difficult for the service that we're particularly commissioning but if we as a councillor know exactly what we want in the areas even if it is ward by ward I think that would then also help with the other recommendations also and I just wonder if we can have a particular focus with those hard to reach groups because I think when just from experience when we had that one procurement service I think those around the table didn't particularly know what the need was on that estate and actually even ward councillors are actually quite best placed in those situations to tell you know to tell you guys what the ask is so if there could be a focus on those hard to reach groups minority groups so that social value is not kind of as broad as greening or sustainability or environment that would be great but yeah to do it in quite a strategic way I think maybe so when it does come to it we're ready to tell them what actually they could do. so drawing the strands together I'll wait and let Ernestus have his say and I'll try and sorry just to say when I do read about the social value fund it does make me kind of regale back to that threshold 250 or 100,000 because it just makes me that sense of kind of like easy wins where if we are working with lower thresholds where we can say 150 contracts where fine it is 20% and it's £3,000 where it might not necessarily meet and ask but that's something that they can contribute to a fund yeah so I think where we're getting to is in terms of the wording the recommendation the council should develop a bank of asks that phrase actually gives us a lot of flexibility flexibility in what we can do and this is something where we're going to have to develop it and evolve it and it may be assuming that the recommendations are accepted a 12 month a two year process of finding out the best way of doing this I think the clear steer from the committee is when we're talking about a bank of asks it is as you say almost a two tier approach there are the broad strategic aspirations in terms of our asks and there are the still type ward or local community asks that we effectively want not necessarily a public list of it but a sense of 20 or 25 projects particularly focusing in on marginalised communities that we want to encourage funding for if I put it in that way seems to me that the recommendation that we've got probably gives us the flexibility to do both all of those things key will be the response of the executive to the report and when we get that response I think what I would like to see is what we're actually going to do fleshed out a little bit and that might be the best way of doing it so when there's the report back to the committee we can critique that I think there is probably unless the committee think otherwise a danger at this stage of being too prescriptive because it's something that we need to think through actually what is the best way of delivering what I think there is a consensus about that we actually want here but there's a difference sometimes between we want to get to X Y and Z but having too much of a straitjacket that might prevent us from getting to where we want to get to I think so I think that's the same and without broadening it I think good listening to what Gautam was saying a good example is around training so it's quite straightforward a good example is training for tech companies we spend lots of money on Microsoft they say well we're all based in Seattle and we can't give you a job over there but we secure quite a lot in value and they'll say that's fine but we know about technology so we'll deal with technology deficits and all that and train people that would be a good example where we spend all the money but because they're based in Seattle we're not going to get jobs or they're not going to change their supply chain or anything else but we are securing a lot of value and then to Gordon's point about so where should we who are we going to say Microsoft are going to give us 50 training days a year what are we going to do with that and there's definitely some more sort of work we can do about making sure those 50 training days deliver most value in our local communities so if that gives you a sense and I think Nick it's a place to your point we can work it through we don't have to answer it now but that would be an example of where we could use this the bank of asks to make sure that those training days deliver most value to our local communities including those that don't typically have access to tech training for example so that would be my suggestion that we just iterate it and develop it over time but the principle is clear what I'm going to suggest is that we agree recommendation six but in the context of the discussion that we have had that when we get the response back from the executive we may well want to critique it and of course by that stage it may well be that the director is thinking has evolved so that you have a clearer sense of what a bank would look like Do you want to add this is particularly disadvantaged groups and can be drawn on? I think so Councillor Hayes I'm always slightly uncomfortable about kind of presenting parts of our communities as people face barriers but I would prefer some slightly different language that was more around people who may not otherwise have this opportunity or you know yes there's something that sounds more negative marginalised or groups that face additional barriers I'll be happy with okay we're happy with marginalised recommendation seven I think should be fairly straightforward this council must work collaboratively with businesses councils and residents to ensure best value this should include the council encouraging the local anchor institutions to join them on the local responsible procurement network sorry Jeff when I first read it I found it a bit hard to read I wonder if we could have the word if it could read collaboratively businesses other councils and residents yes I agree I can see that and one advantage of reading it out is that it highlights where there are potential where there is potential for confusion so yeah businesses other councils and residents yeah you can use that word stakeholders I don't know but yeah partners probably sounds more in tune with our values I think businesses other councils partners and residents yeah sorry residents first then other partners or possibly residents first so residents businesses okay so it reads residents businesses other council partners and partners then I think does that capture yep and so can we agree that recommendation then number eight the council's procurement practices should support insourcing before it looks to outsource as well as collaborating with businesses that work with unions and making best use of incubator programs thank you I think we should go to the first this one and the problem is like you know we recommended the domestic care should be in-house yeah and also the problem is when I was a policy group chair yeah that time we discussed about the what the problem is facing we are presented if you want to do in-house we are told 70 pounds per hour and when we did the scrutiny it came half but my recommendation is anything we decide should be first examined in-house and proper not like some money or something I find it's very difficult to understand when private company make profit same delivery and where we have everything we have HR we have every department but we are told no if you do in-house it's going to be more money and everything that's why it should be discussed properly it should be examined by the proper people not like another capitalist minded examiner should be discussed everything and I really like this one but it should be followed in-house faster than be forgotten our sourcing thank you so one suggestion from councillor Hyde that I welcome views on instead of the phrase supporting the phrase prioritize sourcing in sourcing subtle difference but perhaps sets an expectation that we look seriously whenever there is a procurement exercise that could be done in-house that we give that consideration as effectively a priority yeah how would we then know whether that's been done I mean yeah if there is priority to it in sourcing first yeah so our core progressive sort of procurement policies already say this and there's no reason why the commissioning show we're very clear that I forget what is prioritized or default or whatever so we already do this and what's your question so if you look at any commissioning paper that needs to set out the different options and through CPB for example we scrutinize we scrutinize the options and if a recommendation is made to commission externally why is that why can't we do it in-house so it's that option appraisal process in some cases coming back to the point best value it is best value for the council to deliver it externally in some cases there are services that need to be delivered independently there are a number of reasons why it's better but the assumption is that we deliver it in-house unless there's good reason not to so just picking up on this point if hypothetically there was a particular procurement exercise that they never had an interest in just in terms of for example why an outside provider as opposed to an in-source offer was made presumably there'd be nothing to prevent that member saying can I see the procurement report I understand that there may be bits that may have to be redacted and that may be there may be commercial sensitivity arguments around that but bearing in mind the decision would have been taken at presumably a board of some sort in terms of the procurement exercise would a councillor in theory I'm not encouraging it but would a councillor be able to ask for sight of the report that is being taken it's just so I think that we're clear as a committee as to what information might be accessible to a councillor and I stress to a councillor not for onward dissemination yeah no absolutely so all if you look at our financial regulations so the majority of procurement activities by value is made through a key decision either by an officer or by executive in both cases those are published so it's completely transparent we've had recent discussions about access to those which is for my government colleagues elsewhere to manage but yes in civil terms the majority of things we're going to be talking about are subject to a key decision which is effectively a document subject to any exemptions that is in public certainly any councillor can request it so yes chair that's entirely and you can do it today what were the key findings when situations where it was outsourced so then we got something in one document that could be presented back to us just in terms of when this comes back to committee looking back onto this point I know it's all published but maybe just that there's that kind of work being done as the procurement processes go on that if it's not outsourced and I'm sure there is that first in source approach but what were the key findings for the reasons behind it so then we can look at how to respond to that if that makes sense I'm just thinking I wonder whether you might want this might again we can work on together but the annual report might be something this feels like a key principle how do we know and your job is screwing your holds to count well one how we know is all these reports you can look at that but we could bring out themes and I think ultimately demonstrate we're doing it I think it would help to understand there are sometimes good reasons why we don't that might be a way of hanging that up so does that indicate that possibly a couple of extra words added to recommendation four in terms of the report covering insourcing and I mean certainly what we can't do is have every single contract with reasons why we did or didn't insource but whether that is if we look at KPIs that could include social value equality diversity and inclusion maybe commitment to insourcing or something like that as a clause and resident impact would that cover it and Steve I don't want to put recommendations in the report that are unworkable impractical or risk any sort of commercial confidence issues I completely agree and I didn't actually we thought it might be coming on to stuff there are some commercial confidence issues but actually what we're talking about now I'm fairly comfortable there's nothing to do with any of that there's all sorts of things about my job is to protect you all and be involved in commercial which you need to be out of in the nicest possible way but that is nothing to do with reporting on core strategy and we do actually we report to executive members have a number of reports about progressive procurement strategy which talk about this sort of stuff so I don't see any reason why we can't merge that into the annual report we're talking about here to answer some of your questions so we'll add that in to recommendation four so with the change of support to prioritising are we happy with recommendation then finally recommendation nine the council should proactively promote the benefits of social value that has been delivered to residents I can't imagine that there is any opposition to that so next steps are I think Sam we've got the recommendations it would be great if we could perhaps just circulate purely for the benefit of the committee members the perfected draft recommendations just so there is one final opportunity if there is any drafting that isn't quite right to perfect it but that's really got to be done what's the what deadline do you want to set as a realistic deadline for any final correction and I mean corrections as opposed to change the recommendation maybe given a week for comment I think that's yeah no more than a week because we need to be able to get it into the dispatch for the 1st of June and I stress it's very much just making sure that we've got the wording absolutely right rather than any changes to the draft recommendations but can we agree in principle the draft recommendations yeah thank you all for that so we are let's say coming to the end of the agenda we have the monitoring items the forward plan scrutiny review tracker etc that are all in the pack along with the had effectively verbal updates in terms of the work programme this is effectively the last meeting of this committee it will be for the new committee whoever that might be to decide the work programme for next year of course Stephen please do one final matter for us to consider that we do need to set in train for the meeting on the 3rd of July the Q4 performance deep dive any thoughts at all on what we want to look at my initial sense is maybe having a look at those areas where the RAG rating was amber or red for delivery on the missions and getting some updated data on that what I'm going to say is if you can get any thoughts over to me by the end of tomorrow then that gives me the weekend to pull something together because for Sammonish's sake and for Joanna Dorr's sake we've actually got to commission the data we need to get that sorted out but any thoughts if you can get it to me by the end of the day tomorrow then I'll circulate something early next week with what we're going to be asking for in respect of Q4 data I'm going to bring the meeting to an end but I just want to say some thanks from the committee to Council of Ward who has attended countless PMP and CRES meetings in his various roles on the executive he's always been somebody who's putting his hands saying yep I'll come to the meeting I will answer questions and I'm sure that the committee will want to give their thanks to the years of service from Council of Ward and his transparent and open approach to coming to this committee you'll be missed so unless there is any further business of this committee I will bring it to a close and thank you all for your hard work this year