Transcript

Transcript

Welcome to today's meeting of the full council. Before we start, colleagues, it is going to be a warm one, I don't have to tell you that. So, you've made yourself comfortable, please take your jackets off or do what you have to do to get through the meeting. Okay. Particularly good to see people in the members of the public up there. Welcome. May I remind all councillors of the standards required in our chamber, including respectful debate, high standards of behaviour, conduct and integrity. Personal comments are unacceptable and the importance of your leadership and integrity in promoting high standards is reiterated now. Okay, some housekeeping. in the staircase next to the reflections lift. Lifts must not be used in a vacuum. We've done that. Fire wardens will assist in directing you to the fire assembly points on Arthur Street car park. Once there, you should wait to the assembly point C. Okay, moving straight along. Apologies. Chief Executive to read. Chief Executive Director, expenditures. Chief Executive Director, Commission 2018 Thank you chair. We've received apologies filės from Councillor Crawford, Councillor Schofield, and Councillor Singleton. And Councillor Iqbal and Councillor Matala are joining us via Microsoft Teams. They can join in the debate but clearly cannot vote, Chair. Thank you. Straight on to announcements. There are four announcements to be made. Bear with me with some of the pronunciations, please. Congratulations to Fisal Rafiq, who has won Advanced Apprentice of the Year at the 2025 Lancashire Apprentice Awards. Councillor Salter, would you like to say a few words, please? Thank you, Mr Chairman. Absolutely. It gives me great pleasure to extend full council's congratulations to Fisal Rafiq, who has been named Advanced Apprentice of the Year at the 2025 Lancashire Apprentice Awards held in May. These prestigious awards celebrate a generation of individuals who are breaking barriers, investing in their futures, driving innovation in the workplace and playing a vital role in the growth of our region. Fisal is a shining example of these qualities. Representing digital services, Fisal has successfully completed the Digital Support Technician Level 3 Apprenticeship. His journey reflects a deep commitment to personal and professional development. He chose this hands-on path to build practical IT skills and to make a meaningful impact in our communities. Through his role, Fisal has provided essential technical support, managed IT infrastructure and ensured network security, contributions that have already earned him two well-deserved promotions. His dedication and hard work culminated in a distinction in his Level 3 assessment, which further inspired him to pursue additional professional certifications. Beyond his technical achievements, Fisal is a passionate advocate for apprenticeships. He actively participates in outreach initiatives aimed at bridging the digital divide, inspiring others to follow in his footsteps. His leadership was also on display through his involvement in Freddie Flintoff's Field of Dreams, where he showcased his problem-solving abilities and collaborative spirit. Looking ahead, Fisal is focused on continued career growth and on contributing to the Council's digital ambitions. His vision and drive will contribute to shaping the future of IT within our organisation. So, congratulations and well done, Fisal. We're very proud of your achievements and excited to see all that you will accomplish in the future. Thank you, Councillor, and well done, Fisal. On to Local Government Chronicle Awards. We are thrilled as a Council to have been shortlisted in four categories for the 2025 Local Government Chronicle Awards, which are as follows. Health and Social Care, Step-Down Pilot, enhancing mental health, hospital discharges and housing solutions. Large Team of the Year, Refugee Integration Team. Small Team of the Year, Homes for Ukraine within customer access. And winning the category for Innovation and our Fostering Team for Pause and Reflect Fostering Arrangements, Transforming Lives with Compassion and Innovation. This event is a significant celebration of excellence in local government, recognising outstanding practice and innovation. Well done to everybody involved. Councillor Evans, would you like to say a few words about the winning category, please? I certainly would, Chair. We debate a lot in here. We have a lot of problems that we all have to face. But one thing I think we should celebrate is awards like this. This is an innovative service, the Pause and Reflect Fostering Service, which gives young people time and space to regather themselves and give social workers and professionals time to make professional plans to ensure that these young people have longer-term care homes. And it's a really innovative and dynamic service, which deserves this award and our congratulations full-heartedly. Thank you, and congratulations and well done to all. It now brings us on to the King's Birthday Honours List. I'm very pleased to welcome back, albeit virtually, Julie Bell, I think, recently retired Head of Cultural Services, who has been appointed a member of the Order of the British Empire in the King's Birthday Honours List 2025 for services to public libraries. Councillor Souther, would you like to say a few words, please? Absolutely. A very warm congratulations to Julie. So, Julie Bell, Head of Cultural Services at Lancashire County Council, started work for the authority on the 26th of October 1981 and has dedicated her career spanning over 40 years to ensuring residents and visitors to Lancashire experience high-quality library and cultural services, working in partnership to maximise opportunities. She has been a peer reviewer, advising other local authority library services, helping them to grow and develop their services. Julie established Lancashire Libraries as an Apprenticeship Centre in 2000. This centre delivered Level 2 National Vocational Qualifications in Information and Library Services with City and Guilds and also delivered Management Level 3 and 4 NVQs. Julie supported over 300 staff to achieve these awards. She also established a team of library staff assessors and internal verifiers, working with the county learning and development team who assess learners from different sections and departments. Julie herself was a qualified internal and external verifier for the centre. Julie was a key member of the Chartered Institute of Library and Information Professionals, Trailblazer Group of Sector Employers, who developed the Level 3 Library and Information Service Standard. The Headspace project was a national project between the Reading Agency and Big Lottery to establish book bars, meeting a diverse range of young people's needs in 20 of the most deprived communities across the country. Haslington Library in Lancashire was chosen as the north-west regional area where the project would be delivered. The aim was to embed active involvement with young people and to shape library services for them. Julie was the driving force in putting the bid together to ensure Lancashire would benefit from the project, using her connections and established partnerships to ensure that it was successful and that key learning outcomes influenced the development of library services for young people. Julie was instrumental in securing the Big Lottery Community Libraries Your Space project, an ambitious project that centred on three libraries, Colm, Haslington and Lancaster. The aim of this project was to create flexible space in response to community need. The project ran from 2008 to 2011. Without Julie, it is unlikely that the nationally renowned Get It Loud in Libraries programme would have got off the ground. The original founder of Get It Loud in Libraries, Stuart Parsons, worked for Lancashire Library Service and convinced Julie that young people who are the lowest users of libraries would come through the doors via their love of music and that libraries would be great to have small, intimate gigs as well as big musical events with up-and-coming bands. Julie was sold on the idea and the first gig took place in Lancaster Library in 2005. Get It Loud in Libraries has developed into a nationally acclaimed and award-winning initiative. The library service would not be what it is today without Julie. Her focus on inclusivity, relevance, partnership working and demonstration of impact, involvement in developing staff, meeting the needs of the individual and ensuring progression, particularly for young people who want to make a career in libraries would be missing without Julie. So a very big thanks to Julie Bell for everything that she did for the County Council. Thank you, Councillor, and warm congratulations, Julie. Congratulations also go to our Director of Public Health, Dr. Sakthi Karunanathie, who has been awarded the Facility of Public Health Service Medal for 2025. Councillor Matchett, would you like to say a few words, please? Thank you, Chair. Chair, members of the Council, I am delighted to bring to your attention some wonderful news that not only reflects the calibre of our country's leadership, sorry, county's leadership, but also highlights the impact Lancashire continues to have on public health across the county. Dr. Sakthi Karunanathie, our Director of Public Health here in Lancashire, has been awarded the Faculty of Public Health Service Medal for 2025. This is an incredible honour, one awarded for outstanding service and commitment to public health practice, particularly in his role as the Faculty's Regional Advisor for the Northwest. The Faculty of Public Health is the UK's professional body for public health specialists, setting standards in training, examination and best practice across all four nations. As an advisor, Dr. Sakthi has championed high professional standards across the region. He has supported recruitment and development, and these are responsibilities that are carried out in an honorary capacity, requiring dedication, expertise and a strong commitment to service. I just want to take a moment to say something a bit more personal. Since taking office, I've had the privilege of meeting with Dr. Sakthi every single week. From day one, I found him to be an exceptional colleague, collaborative, forward-thinking and utterly dedicated to the health and well-being of the people of Lancashire. So today, on behalf of this Council and the people we represent, I would like to offer our sincere congratulations to Sakthi. Dr. Sakthi, this award is not only well-deserved, it is a reflection of the excellence we are fortunate to have within our leadership team here in Lancashire. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor. And Sakthi, warm congratulations. Thank you. Finally, I would just like to inform the Council that interviews for the Executive Director of Resources took place on Monday of this week. And I'm happy to congratulate our current Director of Strategy and Transformation, Lawrence Ainsworth, on being successful. We wish him all the best in his new role and his new job. Is he here? Well done, Lawrence. Well done. Which brings me on to agenda item number two, disclosure of pecuniary and non-pecuniary interest. In accordance with the Code of Conduct, the Field Council is informed that members have declared interest under the Code in matters on today's agenda. A list of the declarations will be available for inspection as soon as it's practical. Are there any other matters relating to today's agenda that members wish to declare? No? Okay. Item number three, public question time. Three questions have been submitted, which is amazing, for this meeting. And I set out at item three of the agenda. Question one, I'd like to welcome William Cartwright and his father, Nick Cartwright, and invite William to read out his question, please. Hello, my name is William Cartwright and I live in Bay Cup and I cross Burnley Road to go to school every day. And I think many and more people from my school will cross Burnley Road to get to school too. And I think they'd benefit from lollipop men or women or a zebra crossing of any kind when walking across the road because cars do go very fast and I've been in many near incidents. The previous council took the view that until somebody was hurt they wouldn't take action and I find that quite an odd reply and I don't think that would be the best thing to do. So, um, when, uh, I, there have been, I have started a petition and I have had over 1,200 signatures on it. So it's something that more than children crossing the road have wanted. It's also with adults, um, if it was, there are multiple zebra crossings in the centre of Bay Cup, but they are quite a long way away from where the people who want to cross the road are and it would take quite a long time to, um, get there. I think that it's quite, I think that it would be good if you could, um, get a zebra crossing on Burnley Road because there are lots of children who, and adults who need it. Thank you. William, thanks for your question. Well done. Could I ask Councillor Goldsworthy please to respond? Thank you, chair. Thank you for taking the time to come here today and raising this issue. Um, it's not easy to stand up in a room like this, um, and when you're speaking, it's something that about something that matters to you and your friends. And it's a real tribute to you that you could do it with such confidence. We completely understand that you and your friends are concerned about crossing Burnley Road, getting to the school safely. It's a busy road and wanting extra support, like a crossing person, a lollipop person or a crossing, um, is something that we would have a look at. But for technical reasons, the crossing is more difficult. So the first thing that we're going to do is review having a lollipop person on your road. That will happen after the school holidays. So we get some true numbers of who's crossing and how many vehicles are there. And I accept that it is quite a busy road. The county receives many similar requests. Uh, we'd like to say that, um, we'd like to say yes to all of them, but we don't have an unlimited budget. That said, uh, as you've mentioned, there is a level crossing that is, sorry, a zebra crossing that is 300 meters away that would add eight or nine minutes to the journey. But I accept that one nearer would be ideal. Um, we know this probably isn't the solution you're looking for, but what I will do is I will write directly back to yourself with the results of the review when we reviewed the road, uh, and see if we can put a lollipop patrol in place for you. Thank you for your question. Thank you, Councillor Gouldsworthy. And thank you, William, um, for submitting the question and for yours and your family's attendance here today. Uh, a reply will be sent to you in writing shortly. Okay. On to question two. The second question has been submitted by Liz Baker, who is unable to attend this meeting, unfortunately. The question will therefore not be asked and a written reply from Councillor Roberts will be sent very shortly. On to question three then. I'd like to welcome Savannah D'Abel and invite her to read out her question. Savannah. Good afternoon. I'm Savannah D'Abel. I'm a Jewish resident of Preston. My question is many Jewish people in Lancashire have been concerned about increased hostility towards them since the October the 7th attacks. What specific measures are Lancashire County Council implementing to ensure Jewish residents' safety? How is the Council restoring Jewish community confidence and involvement in public life? Emma D'Abel thank you Savannah. Uh, Council and Roberts would you like to respond? Are we there? Savannah, we'll be with you shortly. Thank you. It's something that we're very concerned about, and we will come back to you. And if you'd like to wait at the end, I'll have a private conversation with you. Thank you. Savannah, thanks for submitting your question. Thank you. Okay, colleagues. We'll go on to item number four, question time. The time is now 13.22. Am I right? We have seven questions and 30 minutes in total for question time. I will warn the council when we approach any limits. Question one. Councillor Barnes, please read out your question. Thank you, Chair. Can the Cabinet Member for Children and Families, or sorry, Education and Skills, update us on the arrangements for the SEND Board and let us know what work has been done to make the required improvements? And further, can we please get the reassurance that they will ensure that this work is properly funded and it remains a priority of this new administration, because our families deserve it? Thank you, Councillor Salter, would you respond, please? Absolutely. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you, Councillor Barnes, for your question. The difficult truth is that provision for children with special needs and disabilities has not been good enough for some time. The previous Conservative leadership had repeated opportunities to address the problems facing children and their families, with concerns raised and improvements required after inspections in 2017 and 2020 and demand rising post-COVID. But the Conservative leadership simply had their heads in the sand and failed to address waiting lists for education, health and care plans, and increasingly common cases of children and families feeling distraught and failed. This culminated with the inspection in December 2024, and the report the County Council received in early 2025, finding SEND services had widespread and or systemic failings. This is the inheritance that we received when reform took over the County Council, but we are committed to doing things differently and focused on better outcomes for children with SEND and their families. So, an integral part of the plan to address the challenges in this area is the SEND Improvement Board. The Improvement Board and Operational Board are in place with an independent share, clear terms of reference, and risk monitoring tools. So, I've been attending the Improvement Board meetings with the Deputy Leader and yourself, Councillor Barnes, and I really welcome your involvement in that. I'm very committed to working together, ensuring transparency, and having shared ownership of this critical work. I also want to inform the Council about some other specific measures that have been taken in recent months to improve provision for children and families. In relation to educational psychologist numbers, we have three agencies that have been secured to undertake 2,400 educational psychologist advices over a 12-month period. And furthermore, additional educational psychologists have been recruited to bolster the central service, although some employed educational psychologists have left the service. And educational psychologists are essential in order to progress the education, health, and care plans and manage the waiting list and the demand for new EHCPs that is coming through. We also have an EHCP process review, which has been planned. Focus sessions have already been completed, and the findings from these sessions will be compiled in a report due at some point this month. This work will help the County Council to understand areas primed for improvement that could include process, people, or technology. There's also certain restructuring going on, so there have been discussions on what a redesign of the SEND service could look like, ensuring a relational delivery model, and taking into consideration the child and family's journey. Draft proposals will be shaped as part of this ongoing work to ensure the service meets future needs. We also have very important collaborations with the parent-carer forum, so we have a renewed and refreshed parent-carer forum, which is making great progress, and we're working with them to really embed co-production, which is an essential part of how we want to deliver our services going forwards. And they have a very important role to play, because we need to rebuild trust with families and improve communications with families of children with SEND. We also have a new Education, Health and Care Plan portal, which will be rolled out from September. The portal will provide access to information for families in relation to the statutory assessment process and provide opportunities for communication in relation to this between the family and the County Council. There are a whole range of improvements that have already been rolled out, and there's a lot of work still to be done, I think it would be fair to say. But I do want to absolutely reassure you that this work is a top priority for the new Reform Administration. Thank you, Councillor Barnes, have you got a supplementary? Yes, thank you. Thank you very much for that answer. And I just want to thank you for your personal commitment to working collaboratively. I know we've got a meeting booked in for next week, but I just wondered whether we could extend that slightly. You mentioned the work that the Parents and Carers Forum are doing, and I just wondered whether we could get some commitment on the Scrutiny Committee, if every single time that we have a SEND topic on the agenda that they're invited to participate. We already have the wonderful Youth Council that come in and support us and help us ask some critical questions that we just don't see because we don't have that lived experience. So please can we get some commitment today that that parent and carer group will be able to have a representative when SEND is on the agenda. Thank you. Thank you. Councillor Salter, please. Yeah, thank you very much for the supplementary, Councillor Barnes. I absolutely agree with the fact that we need to involve the Parent and Carer Forum as much as we can. And the co-chairmen of that forum have a lot of expertise that we can draw on if we work with them properly. In terms of the specifics of inviting them to the committee, I have had discussions with the chairman of the forum myself. I think along similar lines, I very much want to see them more involved. I do think it is a very good idea to be inviting them to these specific meetings during the year in which SEND comes up. There's a reality that the Children's Families and Skills Scrutiny Committee, it covers a lot of ground and there will be a lot of meetings which don't relate to SEND and the work of the Parent and Carer Forum. But where there are relevant meetings, I think it is very important to have them there. I think there's still discussions ongoing in terms of what the actual governance arrangements are that would support that. There is certainly arrangements in place already that you can have members of the public attend the committee and members of the public can also ask questions of the committee. But what I would commit to do is I think that we'll go away and have this discussion subsequently, but I very much want to see them being brought into the process as much as we can. Thank you, Councillor Salter. Moving on to question two, Councillor Clifford, please. Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Could the Leader or Cabinet Member responsible please update this Chamber on the work taking place by Lancashire County Council to ensure that we meet our statutory obligations on biodiversity and contribute to the UK target to reverse the decline in nature by 2030 and the work taking place to support the UK to meet its legal obligation to be carbon net zero by 2050? Thank you. Thank you. Councillor Roberts, please respond. Thank you, Chair. So, because it's a two element of the questions, I'll answer it in two parts. First one was the biodiversity question. Lancashire County Council is a designated responsible authority for Lancashire local nature recovery strategy. Following 18 months preparation, a public consultation on the draft action plan is now live. In the coming months, the Council will be preparing for the delivery of the strategy. The main purpose of the LNRS is to identify locations to create or improve habitat, most likely to provide the greatest benefit for nature and to pursue opportunities to target action and funding. We have specialists carrying out on a rolling programme of surveying over 1,200 locally important wildlife sites and providing advice to landowners on positive conservation management. The Council also employs specialists to advise on the Council's strategy. This includes enabling the Council's own infrastructure schemes and development to follow best practice, informing the Council's planning decision, including advice on biodiversity net gain and other requirements, supporting the Council, supporting the authority in meeting its statutory proactive duty to conserve and enhance biodiversity. We are also delivering projects on the ground. We have secured over £1.5 million in grant funding for woodland creation and tree planting projects. In the last two years, we have worked with over 1,500 volunteers to plant more than 52,500 trees and creation of many micro woods, which provide instant uplift for native wildlife. Working with partners, £3.7 million has been secured since 2022 for peatland restoration work in the Forest of Bowland's National Landscape, with a further £1 million secured for 2025-26. Healthy peatland supports wildlife in Lancashire. Also, peatland in the Forest of Bowland are host of several rare species, such as the hen harrier and merlin. Additionally, in Bowland, the Farming and Protected Landscape Project is supporting farmers in the area, delivering many nature recovery objectives. This year, we have just over £1 million in grant funding available to support projects in the national landscape. Second part of the question, I'll just rephrase it. The work taking place to support the UK to meet its legal obligations of the carbon net zero by 2050, focusing on reducing energy consumption and costs across the LCC estate, identifying quick wins and short paybacks. An example of this is the LED lighting and improved building controls, supported by a £20,000 grant to conduct feasibility works on a selection of buildings to identify energy-saving measures. Lancashire's new transport plan is currently in development, with a strong focus on promoting sustainable transport options, such as public transport, walking and cycling. There is £4.9 million of funding to support the delivery of active travel infrastructure projects, outlined in the local cycling and walking plans. We've already listed the work underway on biodiversity and nature recovery, including peatland restoration and tree planting. These projects have multiple benefits, including capturing and storing carbon, as well as the wider community benefits, such as helping reduce flood risks. We've also trialled the application of biochar at two agricultural sites in Lancashire. Biochar is the charcoal-like substance that can lock carbon into the soil for hundreds of years and improve crop productivity and water retention of the soil. However, since the UK's net zero targets were enshrined in law, household energy bills have climbed sharply, partly because the costs of subsidising offshore wind farms, bioenergy plants and hydrogen trials are forced on every consumer's bill. Low-income families, who spend a larger share of their income on energy, have felt these price hikes most severely, eroding living standards and widening fuel poverty gaps. On the industrial side, heavy manufacturing sectors have complained of soaring operational costs and regulatory uncertainties. Companies in steel, ceramic and chemicals face stiff competition from abroad, where energy remains cheaper and environmental regulations less oppressive. This has contributed to plant closures or offshoring of production, undermining jobs in traditional heartland Lancashire. The rush to achieve net zero targets have also destroyed local communities, including my own hometown and county division of Fylde, where the deeply concerning Morecambe and Morgan Cable Corridor threatens to destroy over 600 acres of cherished greenbelt, productive farmland and vital wildlife habitats. This project risks irreparable harm to our local environment and overmines the very principles of sustainable development we strive to uphold, while high-profile battles over turbine fields and transmission corridors have betrayed public trust. Finally, the promise of energy security for renewables have proved elusive. Britain remains dependent on imported biomass and rare earth metals for turbines and batteries, while wind and solar output fluctuates wildly. However, significant new investment in dispatchable low-carbon sources like nuclear, net zero targets risk leaving the UK exposed to supply shocks and price volatility, especially in cold snaps or wind lulls. Thank you, Councillor Roberts. Councillor Clifford, do you have a supplementary? Yes, thank you, I do, Mr Chairman. Now, thank you for your answer, Councillor Roberts. You've left me a little bit confused. Last Thursday, I heard from the leader, Stephen Atkinson, he believed in the science of climate change. Now, your answer there has confused me, because there was a bit of an attack there, I believe, on renewable energy. So, may I ask you the question, do you believe in the science of climate change? Thank you, Mr Chairman. Thank you. Councillor Roberts, respond, please. Yeah, no, we are not, the question is simple. We don't want to set targets which are unachievable at the cost of the household resident. This net zero target is making us poorer. I agree, we need to look at alternative sources which are low-carbon, completely, and this is why I suggested nuclear, small modular nuclear reactors are the way forward. Point of order, Chair, point of order. Yeah. He's not answering the question that Councillor Clifford put in front of him. He's deferring. Can we please have the answer to the question? Yeah, Councillor, do you want to answer the question? Well, I was answering the question. Again, it's the same principle. We are not going on unrealistic targets. We agree that we need to look for alternative sources of energy. Sorry, point of order. The question was, does the Councillor believe in the science of climate change? That's a yes or a no answer, surely. Right, thank you. We'll just let the Cabinet member respond, please. Again, it's – we are not against – the answer is going to be the same. We are not condemning it or even going back on ourselves regarding this. We just want to look for low-carbon – Right, thank you. Let the Cabinet member speak, please. Reducing energy, energy use and emissions from a building is a priority, but it's also one of the most complex resource initiative areas of decarbonisation. We shouldn't make the residents of Lancashire poorer on an unachievable goal, which is just ridiculous. And this is why reform's got into power. I mean, look to the side of you here. There's a reason why Lancashire voted reform in such a huge majority. It's because these crazy targets are unachievable. It's making everyone poorer. We're against common sense and going back to normality. Thank you, Cabinet member. Moving on to question three. Councillor Brown, please read out your question. Thank you. I think – add this one down for the lead, I believe it's County Councillor Jed Murphy. So, Lancashire County Council, like many other local authorities, has a history of struggling to recruit and retain staff to many positions in our organisation, as working conditions and pay rates are often worse than sections of the private sector. Can Councillor Murphy advise what steps the reform administration has taken to recruit and retain staff to positions that offer vital services that our residents depend on? And will he confirm whether the new administration will continue to be a foundation living wage employer, which has proven to increase retention amongst lower-paid staff? If so, will you consider going further and adopt a Lancashire fair wage work charter like neighbouring Greater Manchester and Merseyside to expand employment rights and reduce exploitation for working-class residents in our county? Thank you, Councillor Brown. Councillor Murphin, please. Thank you very much, Councillor Brown, for your series of questions, your multi-part question. And I'm pleased to say that the Political Governance Working Group has put forward proposals to reduce the length of questions that can be put so that they're pithy and can be answered within a three-minute time frame. However, I will respond in writing in greater detail to County Councillor Brown if I don't finish giving my answer. Indeed, I intend to write to all Lancashire County Councillors on the issue of fair work charters to expose what is behind this woke socialist nonsense. Firstly, recruitment and retention remain key priorities for Lancashire County Council, particularly in areas where we provide essential frontline services. Like many local authorities, we continue to face challenges in a competitive labour market and are actively working to address these through a range of measures. What I'll do is I will share with you the findings that came to my scrutiny committee last year, so you can have a look at the roles that are being challenged. Secondly, the newly elected Reform Administration has been in office for a mere five weeks. It would be surprising, therefore, if we had changed the policy in this time. If we had changed policy, we're about to make a change to the existing policy. This would have been carried out in accordance with the correct political governance, including stakeholder consultation. And you would have been made aware of it. Beyond a no illusion, however, County Councillor Brown, we have received a massive political mandate from the reform voters right across Lancashire to root out waste and through the doge process to make efficiencies right across areas of the budget to deliver savings that will benefit the residents of Lancashire. We've only just got started, however. Since May, the Council has been reviewing its workforce strategy to ensure it supports the delivery of high-quality services while also meeting the expectations of current and prospective employees. This includes enhancing our employment offer, including working arrangements, career development opportunities, and wellbeing support. Targeted, targeted recruitment campaigns in areas with persistent vacancies, such as social care and education, and ongoing engagement with staff and trade unions to understand and respond to workforce concerns. In the meantime, with regard to pay, the Council continues to play a role in supporting lower-paid staff. The current approach to implementation, however, is constantly under review to ensure it remains fair, transparent, and financially sustainable, particularly in light of the deeply problematic financial legacy bequeathed to us by the previous Conservative administration. Thirdly, in relation to fair work charters, just because the policies introduced by the Metro mayors, Andy Burnham in Manchester or Steve Rotherham in Merseyside, does not necessarily mean that it is right as a cut-and-paste policy for Lancashire. The evidence from West Yorkshire, where Tracey Brabin introduced the first fair work charter in the country, and in Scotland under the SNP, is that fair work charters do not work. They're accoutrements to the media image of Metro mayors, hopefully attracting corporate social responsibility from big businesses, selling goods and services to combined local authorities across the sub-regions. For SMEs, however, they are little more than an additional tax on business. It's following on from the Labour government's increase in employer national insurance contributions, and with interest rates staying stubbornly elevated due to persistently high inflation and the lack of growth in the economy, which has entered into recession for the second time in as many months. I wonder whether the leader of Preston City Council has heard of the multiplier effect. At its heart is the notion that if you create high-qualified, well-paid jobs, the result will be that wealth and disposable income will be cascaded down, multiplying sustainable employment opportunities in sectors of the economy like retail, hospitality, and administrative support services. It's a disappointing experience, travelling into Preston every day, seeing the amount of empty buildings and shops, all displaying an estate agent or land agent board advertising office space to rent. Preston needs innovative solutions, like major conference centres surrounded by high-level living accommodation for high-tech analysts and creative digital specialists, centred around a redevelopment of the railway station. Indeed, the situation is much worse than that. For the past few years... Senator Murphy, can you finish up, please? ...socialist acolytes have been trying to push the Preston model, Preston's Corbynite version of community wealth building, as an anecdote to all Labour's woes. The Legatum Institute's UK Prosperity Index, and I'll finish on this... Senator Murphy, can you finish up, please? ...that Preston Council has plummeted... Senator Murphy, I've got to see it again! ...more than 100 places, with the city's investment environment score, measuring the level of capital available for... Thank you, Councillor Murphy. ...in the entire country. Sit down, please. Councillor Brown, have you a supplementary? Yeah. Thank you for that. I mean, there's a question about the... There's an issue about the length of the questions. I think we need to look at the length of the answers as well, because that was a very, very long response, which could have been said a little quicker. I mean, I'm trying to get a bit of consensus on this. There have been conservative county councils that have become living wage accredited and as well supported rights in work. So it's not necessarily a Labour Party thing. The reality is, is as a big institution... Councillor Brown, have you got a question? Yes. The question is, what will he do to reassure low-paid members of staff and especially reassure trade unions, where we're seeing an increase in trade union membership of over 250% in reform-led councils, that they're actually going to be treated well in the workplace so that reform actually cares about the incomes that working people in our communities in Preston and Lancashire take on, and they're going to be free from exploitation. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Brown. Councillor Murphan. As an employer, reform's view is that we already do the right thing for our workforce and ensure that we are a fair employer as a charter wouldn't change or add anything to what we already do. In some areas, we go above, way beyond the requirements of published charters, particularly those in Manchester and West Yorkshire. I have a blunt answer, therefore, to Councillor Brown. There are no plans on behalf of the current administration to adopt a Fair Work Charter, which is unfair on employers, nor will we in the future. Reform, however, is open to exploring models that promote good employment practice, and align with our organisational values, such as any such consideration would involve stakeholder consultation, as I've already told him, with relevant stakeholders, including elected members, trade unions, and employee representatives. Although whether Unison would necessarily partake in that process, given their attitude towards us, who knows? Thank you, Councillor Murphan. Okay, we're moving on. I'm devastated to say we've run out of time for questions. So the remaining questions will be given written answers and responded to at the earliest opportunity. So we now go on to agenda item number five, which is confirmation of the minutes from the meeting held on the 22nd of May 2025. The minutes from the ordinary meeting held then are to be confirmed and signed as an accurate record of the meeting. Do I have a proposal, please? Mr. Chairman, I'm happy to move those minutes. Thank you, Leader. Do I have a seconder? Mr. Chairman, I'm happy to second those. Thank you, Councillor. I've been seconded. The minute book will be signed by myself. I don't think there's any comments, so we will move on. Thank you. Agenda item number six, report of the Cabinet, Part A, Lancashire Child and Youth Justice Plan 2025-26. Councillor Evans, to move the report, please. Thank you, Chairman. I'm more than happy to move this report. As recommended on the 10th of July at Cabinet, four councillors asked to approve a Lancashire Child and Youth Justice Plan for 2025-26, as sent out in Annex A. Thank you. Do I have a seconder? Yes, Chairman. So, I am delighted to second the report and reserve the right to speak later. Thank you, Councillor. Would any member like to speak? Nope, don't see any hands. So, you don't have to respond. Okay, let's go to the vote then. Can I have a show of hands? All in favour, please show. Down. I think that's carried. Thank you. Next, agenda item number seven, report of the Political Governance Working Group. Councillor Murphan, to move the report, please. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to move the reception of this report. Thank you. Have I got a seconder? Seconder, please. Thank you, Chair. Good organisation, guys. I'm glad you've gone through your pre-council training. Yeah, I'll second this, even though it's not perfect. But as someone who's been here for eight years, how exactly... Difficult to believe, Tim. I understand that. But it was an utter disaster and had a massive democratic deficit in this chamber under the Jeff Driver Conservative Administration, where councillors were blocked from speaking at every opportunity. And I want to actually pay tribute to the reform leadership here because they've moved us forward. It isn't as far forward as I would like us to be. And Alan Vincent on the previous Conservative administration moved us a little bit forward as well. But there are still gaping holes that need to be fixed, especially around Cabinet, which is the main scrutiny body of things before they get to this chamber, because when they get to this chamber, most of the stuff is for noting only. So actually, but I take the leader at his word. He said, this is for now, and he will monitor this going forward. But I know the leader doesn't like party politics, but the reason why party politics comes into this is because members were not given an adequate voice to be able to represent the residents that they are sent here to look after. And so I welcome this. And it'll be good to know, for all of us that have just seen that last issue with the questions, that part of this is actually Cabinet members answering quickly as well, so we will get through all the questions. Whether they actually answer them, Councillor Roberts, is completely up to you, and that will be on you and your conscience. But this is a step forward. I appreciate the Reform Group has made some step forwards, and I think all people should vote in favour of this, even if it's not perfect. Thank you, Councillor Potter. Would any member like to speak? I think the leader? Councillor Potter, I thought that was fantastic how you got behind that motion. And we gave you the space to come in, and you did it. Thank you very much. What this shows is consensus and how we are making improvements from the last Conservative administrations. But what I will say is the consensus, there are reasons, I think, why the previous Conservative administration did some of these things, and that was to stop scrutiny becoming overtly political. So if people use scrutiny properly, I'm sure we can have further meetings and make further improvements. But if scrutiny is going to be used as a political tool, I think that's when it doesn't do its job. So thank you. Thank you, Leader. Councillor Rigott. Thank you, Mr Chairman. And before I talk to this report, I would just like to confirm for the record and for the Cabinet Member for Rural Affairs, Environment and Climate Change that I do believe in the science of climate change, and I'm happy for that to be on the record. And also thank you for revealing a long list of Conservative successes. Moving to this report, I agree with Councillor Potter and with the Leader that there is plenty to support. We had considerable discussion at the Political Governance Working Group, but I do want to add something a little further to what has been said. Colleagues may recall that back in May, we had quite a lengthy debate on the changes to the Constitution with all the opposition groups contributing to that debate. Conservative group through Councillor Buckley and myself focused on the representation of opposition groups at Cabinet. And in response, the Leader of the County Council, Councillor Opskin, said, and I quote, I will make it absolutely clear that reform are happy to consider changes to the Constitution if they make Lancashire County Council work better. And I'm equally clear there is a proper way to do that. Councillor, County Councillor Atkinson, can you hear me okay? Can I just say to members, there's a few today that are Russian. I always go back to something I was taught in the Army. Clear, loud, as an order, with pauses. So that's how to speak. Sorry, there we go. I will bend a little bit for you. You just need that down a bit more, Mr Chairman. So, and Councillor Atkinson went on to say that he was equally clear there is a proper way we will do that. And he's just referred to that himself just now. The report itself says we will set up a meeting at the Political Governance Working Group to discuss any changes. At that meeting, we can have a sensible debate and consider our options properly. I'm sure you will agree that was a clear commitment from the Leader to review and consider our proposals. As the report before us confirms, two meetings of the Political Governance Working Group were held, both positive and constructive, for which I thank the Leader and all those present. At the first meeting, proposals and suggestions were made regarding opposition representation at Cabinet by just about all opposition parties present. And indeed, the summary document, created and circulated by officers, which I do have a copy of here, says, and I quote in full, the Leader or Deputy Leader of all opposition groups should be able to attend Cabinet meetings and participate fully in discussion on all agenda items. The current arrangement favours the largest opposition group, which doesn't reflect the opposition numbers and set up post-election. No one present disputed this summary was an accurate and widely shared view. Indeed, County Councilor Ali as leader of the Progressive Lancashire grouping has confirmed that he's happy to enable other opposition group leaders to sit alongside him at the Cabinet table and share and add to the good scrutiny all administrations should see. Unfortunately, colleagues, what happened at the second and final meeting of the Political Governance Working Group was when the agenda was published, there was no response from officers or crucially, the administration on these widely supported proposals, despite the fine words of the Leader back in May. So my question is this, does the Leader, who I've known for a number of years, I would describe himself openly as a man of his word and I take him on that, something he's said in my presence many times, intend to reconvene the Political Governance Working Group urgently to address this oversight and enable deeper and wider scrutiny of Cabinet decisions. As he said in his own words, consider our options properly or we're just going to kick this into the long grass and fail to live up to those high standards of scrutiny his national leaders are demanding of local councils. I do appreciate he spoke beforehand and that was unfortunate but I feel like I had to say what we planned to say. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Rigott. Councillor Buckley, please. Yes, thank you, Chair and hope everyone can hear me. My contribution is really just a point of clarification and at this point I want to thank the officers for their work on the Constitution. I was quite heavily involved in the last administration when we revamped the whole Constitution. I know the amount of work behind the scenes that officers do. I want to turn to page 87 and it's regarding the submissions of notices of motion and 37.1 you introduce if you like a starting period for where notice of motions can be introduced. Excuse me. and I totally understand that and I don't have a problem with that. It's just that on 37.3 you then say any notice of motion which is received before or after the specified time at standing order 37.1 well every time is either going to be before or after I think perhaps what that needs to be corrected to is any notion motion which is received outside the specified times at standing order 37 may be considered if the chair agrees etc. So I think it's just a clarification so that the Constitution is clear as to what is meant by that 37. Thank you. Thank you Councillor Buckley nobody else want to speak I'll know the yes there is Councillor Owens Thank you very much Mr Chairman it's just to say I found the working group up to now very positive I'm pleased with the changes that have been made that our group will be able to ask questions of full council is appreciated and I think I would just draw members attention to the fact that we have agreed to review these arrangements in six months time and I hope that the way that certainly our group approaches opposition will be constructive and that that will engender trust to allow some loosening of the procedures around attendance of cabinet thank you Thank you Councillor Owens nobody else wish to speak Councillor Murfin do you wish to respond very briefly I hope that councillors and the opposition can appreciate that the reform group has a very different mindset to the previous labour and conservative administrations we are open to democratic participation and we will do everything we can to facilitate that and I think based upon the changes we've made we've started down that process we've only been in power for five six weeks so we haven't yet seen the kind of impact of the scrutiny process when we do we'll look hard at it at the next political governance working group and if there is an identified need to make changes we will do that in terms of participation at cabinet it was the previous conservative administration who first introduced that red line when Jeff driver wanted to stifle debate so we will look at it again at the next political governance working group but hopefully everyone can see that we do take a very different attitude and that attitude is based upon doing the absolute very best for the residents of Lancashire thank you very much thank you councillor murphine councillor buckley the chief exec will pick the point up that you made about officers and pass that okay can I we're going to the vote now can I have a show of hands please oh I like that down thank you I think that's carried and we'll move on to item eight report of the audit risk and governance committee annual governance statement 2425 and code of corporate governance 2526 councillor Wally to move the report thank you chairman the report in front of council is an important report that does two things firstly it presents the annual governance statement this is a statutory requirement on the council and provides an overview of how the council's governance arrangements have operated during the last year secondly it presents the code of corporate governance which sets out the principles and arrangements for the council's governance these documents provide assurance to councillors and the wider public that Lancashire county council has effective governance arrangements in place in line with best practice and SIPFA and SOLIS guidelines I would like to thank the officers involved in producing the report as well as the former chair and members of the audit risk and governance committee for their oversight I move the report thank you councillor Wally do I have a second up chairman I'd like to second the reception of this report thank you councillor would any member like to speak yes this is where you're going to test me councillor jewel thank you mr chairman my question is in relation to the upheld complaints which I'm looking at page 126 here against the authority albeit the previous administration but my question is what lessons does this administration take from these upheld complaints and what measures are being implemented to reduce the risk of similar complaints in the future thank you mr chairman so naturally I have been over the excuse me just talk at the end you will respond at the end thank you next councillor stubbins please thank you chair my question is in relation to our partnership with the icb language from south cumbria icb it's a partnership which is a very positive one focusing on prevention early intervention and reducing long-term demand and adult social care however pages 118 to 120 I'd like to draw members attention to the financial pressures which the counter council is under due to non-payments from the NHS integrated care board under joint funding arrangements this poses a significant risk to the adult services budget as is also highlighted in the head of internal audits report so I would ask please if the audit chair or the cabinet member responsible could please tell us what steps are being taken to resolve this issue and what the confidence is in those steps being completed successfully thank you thank you councillor councillor thank you mr chairman who knew it would attract so many questions turning to page 133 of the council's annual government statement for 2024 25 there is a list of eight companies that the county council either fully or partly owns with a list of the members of this council who represented the county council and the people of Lancashire listed on seven of those given the leader appears to have removed governance from his listed areas of responsibility it was listed under the leader of the last conservative administration in the constitution and doesn't appear to have added it to any of his cabinet members responsibility I'm still therefore going to ask this question to councillor Atkinson but if he wants to defer to somebody else that's understandable on how many of these companies moving forward and on which ones has his reform administration replaced members with council officers how is ensuring good governance and oversight of these officers and their decisions and how is that being fed back to the members in this chamber and ultimately the people of Lancashire thank you councillor any other member wish to speak if not then it goes back to councillor Wally and I'll ask you to respond please so naturally this is the work of the previous committee we're yet to sit we sit next week I'm going to take these questions all of them and refer them back to the officers so while I understand this report and I could give you an answer I think to comprehensively cover all of the topics you've mentioned I'm going to take it back to the officers and get a full response so thanks thank you councillor Wally we're going to go to the vote could I have a show of hands please in favour and you down against and no any abstentions a few hands not gone up okay I think it's clear though okay thank you moving on agenda item number nine report of the independent remuneration panel I should have went to school members allowance scheme proposed changes to dependents carers allowance councillor Murph to move the report please mr chairman i move the reception of this report thank you do i have a seconder please yes yes i'm up the queue leader would any member like to speak i'm looking about no so can i have a show of hands all those in favour please show i think we can call that unanimous down thank you very much moving on to item number 10 urgent business i have not been notified of any urgent business so we will move on straight away to item 11 report of the cabinet part b leader to move please thank you mr chairman and before i move the cabinet papers i would just like to focus on the council's financial position and the efficiency review of the council's financial management we are commencing members can clearly see from published documents discussed at the various cabinet meetings that we have inherited a number of financial challenges send and home to school transport adult social care demand and backlogs a £100 million saving programme to simply balance the books and a recent delivery rate on savings and also through the recently published audit risk and governance paper and with the external help of reform UK colleagues i have been able to ask questions about the council's investments and looking at the associated governance arrangements during the term of the last council that started in May 2021 the council purchased government and corporate bonds some that did not expire for up to 96 years to a value of £436 million the latest market valuation at the 31st of March this year is that they had to be sold they would now be worth £156 million that is a £280 million reduction I repeat a £280 million reduction or 64% if we sold them now of these bonds £120 million have been lent to a foreign company one entity although at this stage these losses are only contingent on the bonds being sold early in my opinion this is highly likely given the expiry dates of 2117 2114 2073 2063 and 2060 you will therefore not be surprised to hear that I don't agree with Councillor Rigott leader of the Conservatives and a senior member of the last council in that he said he gifted reform an authority that was in a strong and stable position this is an investment gift we would rather not have to accept this is a serious matter that in the interest of openness needs to be shared with the council taxpayers of Lancashire reform will never allow this type of investment activity to take place again we are currently working with officers who have arrived since these investments were to look at any mitigations that can be needed we are also introducing through our efficient review some significant processes and reviews to bridge the financial gap we have inherited Mr Chairman full council is asked to note the report of the cabinet thank you thank thank you leader deputy leader do you second Mr chairman I'm glad you to second this thank you council whip please thank you chairman and I was going to ask a question on this item of urgent business which relates to the review of the council financial management procurement but I'd like to comment on councillor Atkinson's statement about government bonds really the bonds are there they've got a paper value why on earth would we sell them at such a loss surely we would continue to hold those bonds until their fruition and it's a nonsense to introduce a spurious theoretical loss when no such thing will occur what I would like to ask Mr chairman is this was introduced as a matter of urgency at the first cabinet meeting of this year and it was done so on the basis that we need to urgently find savings and I don't necessarily disagree with that but given that it was introduced could the leader explain what savings have been made what savings have been identified and what savings will actually be realised as a consequence of this review earlier on in this meeting Mr chairman we agreed the establishment of a budget and finance scrutiny body and it would seem to me that any such review would need to feed in to the activities of that budget and scrutiny working group so will that scrutiny panel be informed of the outcome of this urgent review and how will the wider membership of the council learn of what suggestions are coming forward moving on from that Mr chairman the treasury management statement which we've had and earlier this year explained that there was some £635 million of refinancing required in this financial year how will the leader of the administration square that with reforms contention before the elections the county council had far too much borrowing there is a requirement to refinance over £600 million how will that be achieved with this current administration are you going to have a fire sale of county council assets as it was indicated by your wish to sell bonds or will it be community facilities that are up for sale and will everything be sold at a loss in order to get rid of some of that debt which is of course borrowed against very solid assets such as schools libraries care homes and the like and as I understand it the county council has £10 billion worth of assets to set against the debts that there are so a series of questions there Mr Chairman I'd be delighted if councillor Atkinson can answer every single one of them Thank you councillor Whip councillor Riggett please Thank you Mr Chairman and I do apologise for reading a couple of notes from my laptop in response to this I hope council will allow me that luxury I too was surprised to discover this councillor Atkinson last week I think when the audit papers I'm saying in front of everybody I knew nothing about this matter the value of these bonds or the situation the council faced until the reports were published Friday I believe councillor Buckley would say exactly the same thing I do agree it is a matter of serious concern that he's looking at but in the right context and the right setting we would be open and supportive of any investigation any study into that whether that's the newly proposed scrutiny committee which I will be our representative on but when we were made aware of these concerns and we saw the reports on Friday County Council Buckley emailed the Chief Executive and then I did on Monday with a number of questions which the Chief Executive hasn't had time to respond to yet but I'm going to read a couple of them just to give council favour of the concerns that we have and that we stand absolutely behind the leader on the views of ensuring that best practice and good value is done with all council taxpayers money so the first question we asked was did the 93 year investment of £119 million in EDF that was purchased between the 6th of August 21 and the 7th of January 22 comply with the Treasury Management Strategy that was in force at that time so it's also worth noting that the Treasury Management Strategy is set at the budget meeting prior to the year starting so it's important to understand which strategy what time things were said I assume the answer to that is yes I have no reason to misbelieve that officers have misbehaved not followed proper guidance or have not informed the members appropriately I think perhaps the other question that I would just draw to members attention perhaps a couple more I asked if he has any concerns whether he advice offered to members in drawing up and agreeing of the Treasury Management Strategy that was in place at the time that enabled the purchase of the government bonds and the investment in EDF energy as recipients in today's presentation because there was a presentation of outside briefing on audit risk governance matters earlier this week and I think the final question that I think I would perhaps draw perhaps a couple of points is I asked if those confident that members were appropriately advised to put before members at the appropriate time and I think the final one which I think is perhaps the most important one to start with did you have any concerns over the current levels of scrutiny and oversight on investment decision making at the council under the present set of processes and delegated decision making I appreciate the Chief Executive hasn't gone back to me I know these detailed conversations and as I said I more than happy to have this conversation in writing whatever you would like to look into this matter because I think we all have the same end game in mind which is best used I hope that clarifies the position Thank you Thank you Councillor Duc please Thank you Chairman My question is on a different cabinet part of the paper so I don't know if you want to continue with the bonds questions and come back to me later I don't know if you got anybody else No Thank you Councillor Dowden please Thank you Chair I may be about to repeat some of what Councillor Rigott just said it's he spoke so quickly I'll say it a bit more slowly I would hate to think that the new leader of the council is chasing a headline but there are two things that have come up in this discussion which I think may just imply that and I certainly recommend all colleagues here to watch a recording of the briefing and training that was provided to all councillors on Monday about the role of audit and treasury management it was provided by our interim finance officer and external training provider which gave a really good oversight into council finance and of course why any and every single council has to borrow money we borrow money and we're in debt because we want to improve services and that's what all councils are aiming to do and they borrow money over the long run and as councillor whip has said the longer period over which you either buy bonds or get into other borrowing the safer the lower likely that your payments are but you don't in a long term arrangement suddenly look in the middle things aren't so good today let's cause problems to ourselves by selling bonds so this came up very clearly we have to look at why we're in this situation anybody who's been paying any attention at all will know that local government has had its funding cut by 60% so there's been absolutely no chance for councils to save money when it needs to invest in its capital programme whether that's improving libraries museums roads whatever assets every single council is in a position where it has to borrow money so let's not scaremonger the people of Lancashire by quoting figures when what is really important is we look at how are we compared to other councils and from my understanding we are not in too bad a position at all compared to our assets so that's the first thing secondly we had a cabinet meeting we were witnessing the urgency of that item for a continual financial review of services it's what all councils are doing everywhere I'm a city councillor as well on a different council one of our district councils we have a programme called fit for the future it's an ongoing review month by month of trying to find those savings ACCA cuts that we are all obliged to do if we can't create income generation to ensure that the budget is balanced every single council has to create a balanced budget that's what we're aiming to do here that's what all councils are aiming for now I'm not going to say I approve of every single thing that the previous administrations whether that was conservative or Labour did and I'm sure I won't agree on the kinds of things that you're going to do across the board as a reform council but let's not scaremonger in terms of the situation of this council let's be realistic and as has been mentioned again and again we need to work together to resolve these problems and trying to blame and trying to create problems that don't exist by talking about the value of bonds today is not helpful we want to work positively to get a balanced budget we want to do that that has the least pain across for the people of Lancashire so I'd refer back to reform you say time and time again you want to work for the benefit of people of Lancashire do that by working collaborative not flinging mud at either other councillors or officers of the council thank you councillor Dowden councillor Ali and councillor Potter are you going to speak about bonds yes okay yeah councillor Potter sorry councillor got to do it in order councillor Potter I'll come up you knock them down okay yeah so I kind of agreeing a little bit with what everyone's saying here but I think the honest truth is that political rhetoric during your election campaign doesn't match the reality of running a council and that is what you're coming up against here everyone knows everyone who's had any experience knows all councils are struggling for funding from the very largest like Birmingham that went bust to Woking that made horrendous decisions and went bust all councils are struggling and what you guys have a problem is living up to the rhetoric you put on your leaflets and just in case you're forgetting what you put on your leaflets it was a big sign saying Lancashire is broken also of course on that you obviously with debt because are you going to say to anyone that wants a new school in my patch you are not going to get that school because you are going to cut the capital funding I mean I'm sure councillor Jones there in the front will be very interested to know that the school that is planned in her division might not happen because you have some zeal for some debt that all councils all businesses use for long term investment but the crucial one and I think was most heinous in your campaigning under Lancashire is broken what was the next line was our chief exec pay now it's easy to say that when you're not in a room with the gentleman and it's easy to say that when you think you're old going around feeling all big and brash during election campaign but maybe the cabinet members even some of the ones who are reheated Tories let's have a come on have a say it do you believe our chief exec is worth that salary because what you did is belittling and you belittle our civil servants that do more work than you can ever imagine under less money and increased pressure so this is what this is about it's about you trying to cover your backsides for promises made in an election you can't possibly fulfill and that and we'll be really interested and it was really interesting to see how local papers depicted this whatever it's going to be the Lancashire Doge even basing it on something that so catastrophically failed in the US had a picture of the leader with a bloodied chainsaw that is what the public think of your record at the moment so we will see and I'm you know what and I'm an open minded guy like I was with the political governance you have an opportunity now to do what you need to do but it'll be really interesting if all you are is just hot-headed men talking or whether or not you're actually going to do something with it Thank you Councillor Alley Thank you A lot's been said so I'm going to try not to repeat it Chair as you keep encouraging us to I think Councillor Witt Councillor Rigger Councillor Dowding Councillor Potter raised a lot of questions I think the one thing that was clear is when reform came into power here there was a lot of talk about dodge dodge dodge whichever and it looks like around the country they're coming up with dodgy formulas and dodgy information I was at the LGA conference and I was invited my friend over there to attend the plenary where the director of local government from reform spoke and he spoke very eloquently spoke really well for about 15-20 minutes where he called officers of councils blobs for being blockers and wanted to apologise and actually Councillor Atkinson in fairness did say that we had an excellent relationship in Lancashire between the administration and the officers which is really positive every year I've been on 12 years every year like you chair we have had to make savings or cuts to balance the books and we've all argued the toss at full council in budget scrutiny meetings but at the end we have to set a balanced budget and that's what happens what's important is out there in the communities that we serve that we don't gaslight that we are the superheroes who are going to sort it out because that's not what happens in reality as council of Potter says you get down to real stuff and you find that it's very different to what was said in election time investments in treasury management strategy every year we go through this process and these are long term investments as council whip said these are put together the advice that councils team from our senior officers from our 151 officers from our directors and experts in this area because I don't believe the councillors are experts in treasury management we have to look at this I would like to ask the leader to commit to providing full briefings for all opposition group leaders and deputy leaders next week so that we are fully aware of all the facts that have been outlined in his statement today and as in political governance scrutiny management was abolished and a new committee for budget scrutiny and public finance was created and I fully supported that it was said in that meeting that an opposition member would chair that in order to provide transparency and honesty around that process and I want to know when that appointment will be made and as per the discussions at political governance as per the leaders whether that will be an opposition member let's get on with it and let's make sure that people get the best services they deserve Thank you Councillor Alley Councillor Duke please Thank you My question was entirely separate but so at the last full council meeting Councillor Salter gave us assurances that the pressure on high school places in North West Preston would be looked at urgently by cabinet I was however disappointed when I watched the cabinet meeting to hear that the high school decision has been kicked down the road until the September cabinet meeting so as this is a critical issue now for parents and children in North West Preston can Councillor Salter please confirm a final decision date for the location of the new high school in North West Preston and hopefully do a better job than the previous you thank you councillor Duke if there's no more yeah I know if there's no more speakers there I will ask councillor Salter to respond to that question before I ask the leader thank you councillor Salter right thank you Mr chairman I fully understand you're bringing this issue up councillor Duke if you were watching the webcast of the cabinet you will have had an update on this but I think for the sake of full council in case anyone wasn't able to be there I can give a very brief update on it so this is taken from the minutes that the officers have produced of it but essentially I gave a verbal update to cabinet on the issue of schooling provision in North and West Preston so and this was on the two potential sites that had been identified for a new secondary school it was noted that desktop feasibility studies have been completed for both locations the Tollkith site which was the site of a former secondary school and the Maxey Lane farm site now only the Tollkith site was owned by the council of Salta could you speak up I do apologise Mr chairman right I will do my best so it was noted that only the Tollkith site was owned by the county council whilst no timeline had been established when the Maxey Lane farm site might become available and additionally I highlighted that neither site was entirely suitable beyond the ownership issue concerning Maxey Lane farm there were concerns about the lack of essential infrastructure drainage and overall site suitability the Tollkith site also Affecting Access to and from the location and so a full report on the matter is scheduled to be presented to the next cabinet meeting on the 4th of September 2025 I think what I would say in addition to response to councillor Duke's concerns is that from the conversations that I've had with officers essentially we the information was not quite there for the cabinet to be in a position where they could be comfortable making a decision on this issue so we need to make sure that we are in the position of being fully empowered to make the right decision here we mustn't rush it and therefore get this issue wrong because it is so important at the same time I am assured from conversations with officers that so long as we make so long as we can bring the issue to the September cabinet we are very comfortable that we will be able to step up schooling provision in order to meet projected needs in Northwest Preston so I think what I would say is it's coming in September it is a really important issue we will consider it soberly carefully we will give it the sort of magnitude that and the consideration that it needs but it was just the reality that we weren't quite in a position to make any decision in the last cabinet meeting thank you councillor salta with no other member indicating I will ask the leader to respond to earlier comments thank you thank you very much Mr chairman anybody that's spoken on this issue I suggest you go back and watch the webcast treasury management is a function of the whole council and the only person who spoke was council rigott to accept there may have been a problem and you will be seen in my opinion as deflecting from the issue this has come about through the cabinet's scrutiny committee in its normal manner and you've said that it's some kind of political instrument where you should be ashamed of yourself this document from the audit commission in 2011 almost predicted this would happen and nothing was done about it so council rigott credit to you for accepting that this needs to be looked into so the rest of you can reflect on what you've said and how you've acted now in terms of council whip bonds that have to be refinanced if we can't we will be able to refinance those bonds because we might not be able to refinance them as bonds but we could refinance them sensibly through the public sector loans board but if we hadn't made these investments we would have had 500 million pounds where we wouldn't have to take out another bond we could have managed it through cash flow and currently the return roughly is about 3.5% we'll be paying about 5.5% that's 2% on hundreds of millions of pounds millions of pounds will affect the revenue budget so councillor rigget again thank you for standing up thank you for being counted the rest of you please have a look at yourself thank you thank you leader all those comments and that was noted and we will move on to the next item 12a the urgency committee leader to move please Mr chair happy to move the urgency committee thank you is there a seconder I'm happy to second Mr chairman thank you would any member like to speak no I'm not seeing anybody indicating so that's noted and on to the next item 12b the employment committee leader to move please Mr chairman happy to move the employment committee thank you leader is there a seconder Mr chairman I'm happy to second thank you would any member like to speak nobody indicating thank you that's noted next item 12c the pension fund committee councillor sure to move Mr chairman I'd like to present the report of the pension fund there was a lot of things at the last meeting and it's all detailed in the report so if you've got any questions I suggest you'd either ask myself or one of the officers but I would like to add a couple of things I'd like to put on record to thank Sean Green the head of the fund because he's leaving this next week he did an excellent job he spent a tremendous amount of time with the committee and especially the chairman myself and the deputy chairman so I'd like it on record if we can that we thank him for that couple of couple of major things that are happening you've all been talking about finance but the pension fund is independent is that the government in their wisdom decided there's about 20 odd pension funds that have got to change their homes so we will be looking at the Lancashire Pension Fund investment side will be looking at trying to get some of those that will mean there's a change of structure especially with the shareholders and the directors that's something that's going to happen in the next 12 months and also this year is our valuation year so I would like to move the report thank you councillor sure your comments to officers will be passed on is there a second please I'm happy to second that thank you that is there anybody wish to speak I'm looking around no thank you that's noted we'll move to the next item which is number 13 report of the Lancashire Combined Fire Authority Councillor Murph to move please having having having recently become chairman of the Lancashire Combined Fire and Rescue Services I'd like to just make people aware of my deputy colleague Osman Arif is he in the room today do you want to stand up Osman so people can see here Osman has become the first Asian deputy of the Lancashire Combined Fire and Rescue Service and I'll be working very very closely with him and indeed with all the party leaders on a number of projects going forward including the future of fire stations in Preston the future of the Fire HQ forward and also the fire training complex at Washington in Exden in Chorley and it's going to be a lot of hard work but immensely looking forward to it and I know that from the feedback that I've had from the members certainly on my side but also on our partners on the committees on Progressive Lancashire it's been a really positive experience thus far going going forward and we're looking forward to doing that more as time goes on so Chairman I'd like to move the reception of these minutes thank you thank you Councillor Murph is your seconder please chair I'll second that thank you very much councillor would any member like to speak yes councillor Howard thank you Mr Chairman and could I congratulate councillor Murph on yet another appointment you must be a very busy man with all of the chairmanships that you now hold however you've just acknowledged that you have the first Asian vice chair of the fire authority and the most fundamental point of the fire authority is to keep the residents of this county safe and one of the most important aspects of that is the equality diversion and inclusion approach which is to focus on identifying and mitigating risks for those most vulnerable so would you commend or join me in commending the activities of our community safety advisors not least of all in engaging with the black minority and ethnic communities fostering positive connections across the area holding sessions organized for hotels that accommodate refugees and asylum seekers and in forging links with the black Caribbean groups in the county and does he likewise welcome a further action plan being developed to identify other communities and events where the fire and rescue service can support prevention activity some of those have been in delivering sessions to people with special educational needs all focusing on how to keep themselves safe and is he also as pleased as I am that the community safety advisors at the fire and rescue service have not taken up the invitation to go and find another job as was indicated by the leadership of your party following the recent elections thank you councillor how do you have a question to speak no not seen any hands councillor murphine please one of the things that I said when I became chair of the fire authority was I wouldn't politicize its work and you've done it again David you did it in the folk council and really I think you need to question your position going forward I am really going to try hard to make it a non political authority we we have a report which is about to be produced by her majesty's inspectorate who have gone through the activity of the fire authority with a really fine tooth comb and they're going to say an awful lot of positive things about it going forward I am working with all the leaders of the groups in the room of the next couple of weeks we have a meeting set aside on the future of the fire stations in Preston I am going to arrange a meeting of all the Preston county councillors and the two Penworth ones including yourself but what I don't want is this to be politicized we will be aware of the data and the evidence about response times and that and that alone will determine our response going forward please don't try to politicize the activity of the fire authority that's not what it's about point of order I wasn't politicizing anything I was merely quoting your national leader and one of your elected mayors telling members of staff who you should be secure that you should be offering job security to to go and look for another job okay through me please councillor how have you their job involved equality diversity and inclusion that's not me politicizing it that's you thank you thank you okay that's been noted and we're moving on we're moving on now to the exciting part again notices of motion submitted understanding order B 37 we have the maximum four notices of motion to consider this afternoon I would like to remind full council that we have up to 30 minutes to deal with each notice of motion motion the time the time is now 14 45 I can tell the time and I will warn the council when we approach any of the limits okay notice of motion one councillor barnes please forward your notice of motion thank you chair I'd like to oppose this motion and if seconded speak to it thank you thank you is there a seconder thank you I'm happy to second the motion and retain the right to speak thank you thank you councillor dowden are there any members wishing to speak councillor riggett no sorry councillor buckley I should know I should know councillor buckley yeah thank you Mr Chairman thank you yes when I was the cabinet member for community and cultural services I had a specific responsibility of community safety and domestic abuse it was specifically referenced that way in the published constitution and in that role I helped promote the annual white ribbon campaign and was proud to announce the formation do you want to move the motion for me thank you thank you thank you no no you I thought you asked no no I assumed I'd be presenting it as soon as it was seconded thank you so much thank you chair and thank you to our colleagues for giving me the chance to speak today I'm not going to talk through this word for word because I like to assume that everyone had a look in order to understand the seriousness and the brevity of it but I'd like to call for something that we should already have in my opinion and something that was actually backed across party at the last budget and was promised by the previous administration and that is the appointment of a lead for VARG in Lancashire either a cabinet member or a member champion for violence against women and girls a cabinet member would be my preference and so I'll use the acronym VARG as it's often called and that refers to forms of violence that women and girls are far more likely to experience so that would be things like domestic abuse rape stalking harassment coercive control so-called honour-based violence and these aren't isolated incidents this is a pattern that cuts across age class ethnicity and postcode and it's something that we need to tackle head-on with leadership and purpose now Lancashire has made some progress that's true the police and crime commissioners latest plan names VARG as one of his top priorities and he tells me that preventing violence against women and girls is a priority that requires action and focus with a zero-tolerance approach that drives down the number of victims and drives up the number of positive outcomes and to achieve this we must build on partnership working we've got some brilliant teams doing serious work and you might have heard of some of these Operation Soteria the DRIVE Project the Freedom Programme and more and these are absolutely vital but let's be honest this is still fragmented services are spread across departments and no one senior political figure at Lancashire County Council is fully accountable for driving this agenda forward that's a gap and it matters so appointing a cabinet member for VARG would make a real difference it would give strategic leadership across departments health, education social care procurement it would make sure that survivors voices shape our services it would help to coordinate with police schools health services and charities and ensure that funding is going to the right places and fast now let me share a few figures that show the scale of what we're dealing with in 22-23 there were 35,720 incidents of domestic abuse reported in Lancashire that's 23 per 1,000 people an average of 59 domestic abuse crimes are recorded every day in our county stalking harassment and violence with injury are the most common VARG related incidents and the number is growing up year on year and in the last 12 months there were almost 6,000 reports of rape and sexual offences behind every one of those numbers is a person often a woman often a child living in fear and looking for a way out now let me tell you about Joanna Joanna's partner assaulted her when she was pregnant he head butted her broke her nose because she dared to challenge him for coming home at 4 o'clock in the morning he lied to the paramedics when they turned up and told the police that it was an accident in hospital nobody asked her if she was safe at home and they sent her home with an abuser later that night now Joanna said that she became a shell of herself and eventually thank goodness she was able to get support from a domestic abuse charity I've told you about Joanna today but I could have told you about Sue about Dawn Louise or Mandy or even about myself but this isn't just a choice sorry this isn't just an issue about justice or safeguarding issue it's an economic one too and we're constantly being told that the administration have focused on value for money the World Bank estimates that the cost of VARG is up to 3.7% of the country's GDP more than double that of what most governments spend on education and we're paying for it anyway whether we address it or not so let's choose to invest in stopping it the new government has said it wants to have VARG within a decade we even have a group of MPs from Lancashire who are part of a task force to improve outcomes in our county some of you here will remember our colleague Lizzie Collinge who is the new MP for Markham and Loonsdale she sits on that group and she told me that the prevention of violence against women and girls is at the heart of the government's mission the task force will create space for policy improvements and hold ministers to account but this is only part of the picture we need local councils and councillors to champion local action because in the end it's delivery on the ground that matters just to finish other councillors are already appointing Borg leads why shouldn't Lancashire be at the forefront of this why wait our residents deserve more and just to finish my last sentence I will be writing to all of our district councils to see if they will join our mission I've already spoken to councils such as Rosendale Preston Blackpool Chorley and Blackburn and they are interested in taking this up too let's show survivors that we see them we hear them and that we're going to do better please support this thank you your motion has already been seconded but before we take any more comments I understand there's an amendment councillor Jones thank you Mr chairman I married an English man and immigrated to this country some 20 years ago at first the marriage was wonderful but after three years things started to go wrong all of a sudden anything I tried to do was not good enough very quickly he would get angry the smallest thing would lead to him losing his temper very soon anger turned into rage and involved throwing things around the house screaming and pointing at me blaming me for every little thing that went wrong and it wasn't my fault I got to a point where I felt I was treading on eggshells trying my best not to upset him in any way because I was frightened and I repeat I was frightened how he would react this made no difference things just got worse it reached a point where he would suddenly lose his temper for not apparent reason and then he would become extremely physically violent towards me which usually left marks at this time at this time I was loyal to him and hoped that things would get better but they didn't things got just got worse he was controlling my life I was not allowed to have friends and at this time I was in my early 20s and wanted to improve my education however even this was taken away from me and I was not allowed to pursue any opportunities or interest it was all about him anything I did had to be for his benefit if it was for mine he would not support it rather it would become physically and verbally abusive I wanted to go out to work because I wanted to feel useful and wanted to socialise with people however he denied me even this I had to retreat into my little sanctuary in the corner of the bedroom where I used to cry for hours I didn't know what to do this behaviour towards me continued for another three years eventually got to a point where I felt like losing my mind all I could see was darkness and I felt helpless I sought help and went to a woman's refuge but such was his hold over me that I ended up going back to him the return didn't work out very well at all and within two weeks I had to call police and ask them to rescue me I finally left him for good at that point but the abuse didn't end even after separation he continued to harass pester and intimidate me to a point that I had to apply to the court for a non-molestation order which was granted on an indefinite basis eventually my divorce came through but this attempt but his attempt to control me directly and indirectly continued for years 10 years on I now consider myself fortunate to have come through what I did leaving him I survived but I am aware that many don't I was blessed to receive the help and support I needed at the time I needed it and this has made me determined to do everything I can both personally and in my capacity as a reform counter counsellor to help women who are experiencing the horror that I did I want to be a focal point for all our efforts as a reform counsellor to make sure that many more women survive like I did therefore I would like to put myself forward and be considered for this role because of my lived experience thereafter I would like to support the initial wording contained in councillor Barnes motion to add the following the role is not just about violence against women and girls it's also about coercive control psychological mental emotional financial physical sexual cultural and post separation abuse thank you councillor councillor jones thank you for sharing that with us and it's good to see you here thank you councillor now the question is are you going to accept that as a friendly amendment thank you so much for your bravery and for sharing with us this afternoon yes I do I just have one small question if that's okay to ask I'm just wondering why the line around this isn't a deal breaker but I am curious I'm just wondering why the line around being undertaken by someone lived experience or work experience has been taken out I do think if someone we were told when the administration appointed the cabinet that that was because they were the best people for the job because they had the experience so I think if we're going to follow that thread through we need to be looking at making sure that the person and I think we've would like it to remain there please yeah okay so we're going to say that would you like to comment later or would you like to comment sorry okay well I'll comment I think that's a reason it's reasonable thank you we'll look at that okay that's right we're going to debate this now so councillor Buckley thank you chairman and apologies to councillor Barnes for being a bit premature earlier there but I thought that I was given the slot we've had two very powerful messages that have been said and I don't want to distract them from that and we'll certainly be supporting this when I was the cabinet member one of the things that I was involved with was the setting up of Dazzle which is the domestic abuse support services Lancashire which was a multi-party a partner grouping where people can have shared experiences and one thing that surprised me perhaps it shouldn't have been a surprise but it was a surprise was at that the first conference that we had in the exchange building upstairs there was a number of bodies that were supporting men who had been subject to domestic abuse and violence by other partners male partners or also from females that they were married to so although that is the minority grouping and I accept that I would just like to ask if when we do have a champion if this is I presume this will be approved if that champion can also be mindful that there are parts of society where abuse occurs where it's not just violence against women and girls although I concur that that is what is before us today so thank you thank you councillor buckley councillor murfin can I just start by saying well done maria that that was one of the bravest speeches I think I've seen in the council chamber and I think in terms of a lived advocate of somebody who's a victim of violence against women and girls maria could be no better champion I was I think the first person who actually brought the issue of violence against women and girls to committee and we had an evidence day just before the election a couple of weeks before that and we had representatives from social services from women's refuges and from the police and the police and crime commissioners office who came and talked very eloquently on the subject and one of the recommendations that we made in that meeting which was recorded but has not yet gone up on the website and I'd like to make a plea that that meeting should go up as well as all the papers associated with that that hasn't happened yet because I think there's some very valuable data and evidence related to that but one of the things that we recommended was that police and crime commissioner has some money available for this activity set and I absolutely support Samara in this proposal let's do it let's just ask Clive get a meeting with him and just let's make it happen I think that's really important I think it's also important to focus on the officer team who do some really good work in in this area and let's make it a really discreet but focus area within the council for this important issue area I've got deeper understanding of this issue area because my daughter wrote her undergraduate dissertation on coercive control and violence against women and girls so and I kind of helped her edit the document down as a writer of some experience but I learned an awful lot of the subject area by doing that and there's some really good work that's happening at York University in this area which I encourage Sam to go and have a look at thank you thank you Councillor Murphan members this is a very important matter but we are losing time so could members be brief please from now on thank you councillor Ali please thank you chair there was a lot I was going to say but I think contributions from councillor Barnes and councillor Jones have made the whole issue come to life and sort of the lived experiences as I think answered all the questions that I might have had 32 years ago when I first became a councillor I co-founded a group called MAD Men Against Domestic Violence a voluntary group and something that Samara alluded to the referrals keep going up and open up and if you go around Nikeshire and talk to women's groups and other refuges and district council officers who deal with these issues the numbers keep going up I think I just want to pay tribute to councillor Samara Barnes because this is not a one-off she's been championing this cause and being an amazing ambassador and advocate for victims for many many years and it's been here in this council many many times I'm really delighted and I don't think there's anyone better than councillor Jones to actually champion that if that's what the leader decides to do after this meeting there's so much to be done and I think we're lucky we have a police commissioner in Clive Grunshaw and the deputy police commissioner in Kim Whitehead who are great advocates and have a huge commitment to this cause so I look forward to this passing I think the debate is virtually at an end in the sense of any discussion I think let's get on with this and I'd ask that we move to the vote Thank you councillor Ali councillor Dowden please Thank you chair really I just wanted to endorse that view that we we could now move to the vote I think we have heard such a well presented case for the need for this work or a reminder I think many of us knew it was there councillor Barnes has presented us with statistics with the complexity of the issues when we are trying to deal with violence against women and girls in their entirety and we heard from councillor Jones a very moving and descriptive reason of why this is so pernicious and I think we could do no better than to leave it with the two women who have proposed and given voice and passion to this issue I'm sure a lot of us have something to add but I would suggest we leave it with and remember the words of councillor Barnes and Jones on this and move to a vote thank you councillor Dodin councillor Roberts thank you chair it was just a quick one to say amazing speeches from both you it takes a lot of guts to do this and they're the most powerful speeches I want to do a briefing of what we're currently doing we've got a range of skills we're leading our director Dr Satvi is leading coordinating a work group which against violence against women and girls what we currently have and I think councillor Buckley mentioned it was a domestic abuse support service for Lancashire and that supports victims and children in safe accommodations as well as supporting adults and children via the outreach service currently there's 940 individuals supported 529 women 39 men 12 trans or non binary and 360 children we also have the connect and respect health free relationship program which is delivered by specialist domestic abuse providers and is offered to all secondary schools in Langshire the program is delivered in a trauma informed way and is aligned to aspects of the PHSE curriculum and and then finally we've got the parachute program as well which is preventing abuse behavior change program for children and young people aged 11 to 19 which is a 10 week program addressed harmful behaviors in intimate relationships and wider friendship and or with family professions in their life and there's currently 159 young people that completed that program Thank you councillor we are moving on now so things against us councillor Barnes would you like to sum up thank you very much for everybody's contribution thank you so much for everyone's support this is a really important matter it meant a lot to me and it will mean a lot to a lot of people across Lancashire thank you very much thank you councillor Barnes I just want to bring the chief executive in to let you know exactly what you're voting on but with the words relating to the role is undertaken by someone who has either lived experience or worked experience in this area of work added back in thank you chief exec and thank you for everybody that spoke on this we all know how serious this matter is okay could I please have a show of hands all in favour of the motion please thank you we don't have to do anything that's carried thank you very much for that moving on with five minutes to spare notice of motion to councillor roberts please put forward your notice of motion so this council believes we should be proud to fly the flags of our nation and of Lancashire and individual political causes should not take precedence over our shared identity this council therefore resolves to ask cabinet to review the council's approach and policy to flying flags over council property in line with this principle and to ensure the priority of that only the union flag the flag of England the Lancashire flag royal flags the flag of the Commonwealth Nations military flags and signs thank you councillor I do have a second please yes Mr chairman delighted to second the motion and reserve my right to speak later thank you before members speak does anybody have any amendments is there an amendment oh councillor Ali thank you chair I do have an amendment I'm hoping that's gonna yeah here it here it goes I did share that with councillor Roberts and we had a bit of a discussion around it but it's clearly not been accepted councillor Roberts let me seek clarification through you that's not in the original motion so that was displayed on the screen or have I misread it could someone clarify that can we look at that but it did say common well flags in his speech yes I did add that and because again I think it falls quite well with a country flag it rhymes with obviously these are individuals and flags but it's the main flag itself which is the blue and obviously the yellow globe as well not the individual commonwealth nation flags so just to be clear council you want the word commonwealth put on the motion okay okay that will be done so yeah that's an amendment to his original motion right fine can I just say that when I saw that motion that came through on the papers I thought hang on we've got some big big issues to discuss in this council as the leader talked about the financial position treasury management send adult social care working with the ICB potholes the list goes on and on and what have we got the first opportunity for reform to put forward some motions and its flags it's about our flagship flag policy which is going to change the lives of people across Lancashire that's what they voted for on the doorstep yeah we're going to change the flags policy I don't think so but then I asked for the flag flying policy and Josh kindly I think Mark Wayne the chief exec forwarded me a flag policy I didn't even know we had a flag policy but anyway that's one of the things that Dodgy's done right they've unearthed the flag policy so we've got that and then I started going through it and I thought actually which policies don't which flags do reform not want is it the pride flag or you know is it you know is there something the white ribbon flag the NHS flag the emergency services flag which flag is it that they're against and it'd be really interesting so I thought well you know what in the interest of working together and collaboration as I promised the leader and we talk about collaboration let's try and put an amendment together where we can work together through scrutiny rather than cabinet just impose a policy so I put forward this which was that this council believes we should be proud to fly the flags of our nation and the flag of our beautiful county of Lancashire this council therefore resolves to ask the community cultural and corporate services scrutiny committee to review the council's policy and make recommendations to cabinet for then cabinet to make a decision and I thought that's the whole part of scrutiny is to involve councillors to look at policies review them that wasn't the job of cabinet cabinet's job is to make decisions from recommendations so I really like to know from Josh policies which flags you don't want on this list because clearly you don't bring forward a motion to full council just for an open discussion you bring it with an agenda at the back of it so I'd like to know is it a pride flag the NHS flag the Ukraine flag Holocaust Memorial Day commemorations we had Srebrenica last week you know what is it that you don't want to do anymore which flag do not want to be associated with I think it's important you tell the people here and now thank you councillor Ali before we go on to any speakers will this amendment be taken as friendly you're not going to accept the amendment okay we will now discuss the amendment so speakers second or first sorry a second there we go thank you councillor okay so now we have councillor potter thank you chair yeah let's might as well just cut across any sort of pretense in here as councillor Ali has alluded to this is about removing certain flags from our policy most notable of course is the pride flag it is evident that is what you are doing it is evident from reforms national politics this is something you're encouraged to do and I don't why we're playing this kind of political charade that you seem to be doing with your original notice of motion but councillor Roberts you're giving yourself a lot of interesting praise today in terms of not being able to agree on climate science and now not being particularly friendly to our LGBT community and I think it's also a really important thing to remember with flags it's a reminder for those people which history is all too convenient to forget and you can have all sorts of quotes from Churchill to Confucius saying how important it is to base your future on your knowledge of the past and what you're doing here is not acknowledging some of the struggles that people go through and you know what's particularly galling we've got fairly restrictive flag policy already in Lancashire County Council we should actually be opening that up you had a question from the Jewish saying we wouldn't be allowed to have a Holocaust memorial flag in mid January because that's not worth remembering those sacrifices and not worth making sure that they are remembered each and every year because that's what we do and you might think I'm a middle aged white man who's pretty middle class I have never had to really feel the sting of discrimination but you are kidding yourself if you think groups in this county do not a woman on average still pay 30% less than a man 85% of the LGBT community feel intimidated to a point where they feel they have to be less gay in the workplace and you're not even willing to fly a fag for some culture war nonsense you shame yourself and you shame this county and you know what and you haven't even got the guts to say I don't believe in you are supposed to be the free speech warriors talking truth to power yet you try this nonsense I'm not gay but I care about the fact that gay people feel intimidated I'm not gay but I care about the fact that someone like Brianna Jai is brutally murdered all for the fact she was a trans girl and you are dishonoring those sacrifices over decades by playing these sorts of games and some people might in this chamber might be not happy to have these words because they know this is what reform like to do set these cultural things going but I'm going to stand up to you this amendment is well deserved it's taking some of the nonsense out of yours and when you vote this down I will vote against your substantive because someone in this chamber and in this county has to say what this thank you councillor Potter councillor Atkinson that was dramatic wasn't it this country is more fragmented than it's ever been and we need to come together as a country and this is giving us the opportunity to come together under the nation state something that's under threat from the globalist uniparty opposite we need to put everyone together in one grouping instead of constantly dividing and separating this is the intellectual reason behind this in regards to free speech we have a motion on here about free speech is an individual situation that should be defended absolutely so if you want to wear a pride lanyard so be it that is your choice but this is a civic institution that should be concentrating on providing public services not being overtly political for frustrated people who couldn't become MPs thank you thank you councillor atkinson councillor how please thank you mr chairman i think we councillor ali summed it up that with all the problems we have in this county flying a flag a bit of cloth is what gets you the most worked up and what you feel is the most important to the residents of this county i've been an elected representative now for 30 years i'm not a middle-aged white man like councillor potter i'm an old white man but for 30 years i've represented my community at one level or another whether that be on a town council a borough council the county council and in all that time i've only ever had one letter from a resident about flying a flag and it wasn't even somebody from pembertham that i represent it was from out in the western parishes because south ribble had decided to fly a rainbow flag and the letter i received was the gentleman didn't think that this was appropriate and i had to ask him what being gay or flying a flag and i think councillor potter hit the nail on the head what is it you find offensive is it that people are gay or is it flying a flag because we suspect we know what the answer is but the other honour i had in that 30 years of serving my community was to be the mayor of south ribble and that took me out to meet all sorts every aspect of people all the people who live in our borough and i met a lady with her children who was seeking refuge here from ukraine and while that lady and her children were seeking refuge and sanctuary her husband was out on the front line in kharkiv fighting the russian invasion and as a mark of respect and acknowledgement to that lady and the other ukrainians seeking sanctuary in our county for one day for one day on ukraine on ukraine national day we flew a flag in solidarity with them and you think that is some individual political cause that isn't individual political causes that is showing compassion for people who don't know if they want to receive a letter or news that their husband has died on the front line and they're going to be widowed and their children are going to be orphaned and you think that's an individual political cause that we shouldn't fly a flag for you should hang your heads in disgrace so what is it what is it that really upsets you so much councillor potter also alluded to i think councillor ali did as well holocaust memorial we hold a holocaust memorial day in south ribble we fly the holocaust memorial flag and it's not just for the jewish community within our county it's for all of those who were killed in bosnia who have been the victims of genocide throughout the world and many of those communities have sought sanctuary in this country and in this county and yet you don't want to acknowledge anything that they went through because we have to allude to this petty jingoism i welcome a review of this because i don't think this policy goes far enough let's add some more flags to it and let's recognise the people who live in this county thank you thank you councillor harith councillor salta please thank you mr chairman i have to say i disagree with councillors ali and councillor howarth in dismissing the importance of flags i think this is about shared identity and it is something that reform believe in reform believe in family community and country and you know what many people across lancashire agree with us after all we would not have such a large majority if that wasn't the case would you like me to start again or just speak up i will just speak up not to worry okay the next point is i have to say i do think that full council is the appropriate venue to have this discussion and to thrash out this issue i understand councillor ali's point of why there are certainly some very technical issues that it's quite appropriate to bring to scrutiny but it seems to me that for this issue it is best that we all have this opportunity we can have our say we can vote one way or the other stand by what we believe and so i think that councillor roberts is quite right in bringing this forward i think that the original motion from councillor roberts was a very positive motion i'm really pleased with how he expressed and encapsulated this issue to me the key to this issue is that we are all lancastrians whatever our particular characteristics whatever someone's sexuality ethnic background religion whatever else is true of us as individuals we can all come together to celebrate lancashire and to celebrate the flags of our nation so that being the case i oppose the amendment that has been tabled and i endorse councillor roberts original motion thank you councillor salta before we continue can i just ask members please to be as brief as you can moving on i don't want it to get to the end and we're chasing it so could i call upon councillor labellet please yeah thank you very much chair and it's an honour to speak in the chamber for the first time i've been listening to reform during the election at the first council and the various press releases in the newspapers in the second council and of course each point they tell us they've got such massive issues that they're going to address the problems in lancashire are huge and so it was with anticipation that i opened up my file of papers for today to see what was the most important issue that they were going to bring and there it was in the motions from a cabinet member who could have brought it through cabinet papers but from a cabinet member there it was the important thing is flags we must have a policy on flags now i must admit i don't think i've ever flown a flag in my life i will one day when it's the flag of the scottish republic but apart from that i have never i don't think flown a flag but i thought well okay i will read my way through the various items that are here so thanks to reform for letting me find out that there is a flag flying policy and thanks to them for telling me that if i read this what i have to do when the weather's inclement and what way the union flag has to go up and as i read through it and i read councillor cabinet member robert's motion i then said well what flags is it that we're going to take out and how many days of the year are they getting their flags in a twist about and as you go through them people have mentioned the pride flag but actually there's only six flags that we are legitimately allowed to fly that they want to remove so there's the pride flag and people have made the appropriate points but those ones the cabinet members have told us this is all about our shared identity and what we have in common but we won't be having the nhs flag because people don't like the nhs the nhs isn't something we should be proud of sorry nhs is probably the greatest reform we've ever had in this country we should be celebrating the nhs but not under this policy the emergency services flag what the what the fire and rescue service ever done to you to make sure that their flag is not flown over the buildings of lancashire the white ribbon flag we've all just voted through about domestic violence but we won't be having a flag for one day of year with a white ribbon on it the red enzyme flag of the merchant navy will not be flying that may be something that upsets you but your policy that you've just put down says that you won't be flying the merchant navy flag either your policy that you put forward said that you wouldn't be flying the commonwealth flag but you change the flag as you go on it says enzymes it says enzyme flags of the military and the navy it doesn't say the merchant navy so what you're doing is you're getting your flags in a twist for six days we have pride flag commonwealth flag although you seem to be wanting to add that in the enzyme flag of the merchant navy domestic violence awareness nhs flag and the emergency services flag would not be flown that's what you are proposing that you remove thank you councillor sum up please but what you're actually doing is that you are just engaging in posture politics you're talking to an audience out there that you think want to hear about flags and the range of flags that people fly when actually they don't you're actually trying to divide our communities you're not at all trying to bring them together thank you councillor good to have somebody speaking the queen of the king's english councillor with that reference to yourself chair thank you mr chairman i'm not going to stand and advocate for a scottish nationalist flag but no in all seriousness i thought too i would start my response to this motion by reviewing what the county council's flag flying protocol actually says for those who haven't read it it opens by saying the default position is to always fly the union flag alongside the lancashire flag above pitt street and the county council flag at bow lane at full mast the flag should be flown in order of seniority with the most senior flag the union flag being on the leftmost flagpole when facing the building so far so good i think we can all agree on that moving past the section on when and how to fly flags at half mast you get to the section campaign flags which states campaign flags may be flown in replacement of the county council flag recognized events are listed in appendix b below any new request to fly flags must be supported by the relevant portfolio holder holding councillor and have the agreement of the leader and the chief executive so what does appendix b include i have a copy of the policy here i think quite a lot of people do it seems and in this i'm excluding the union flag and the lancashire day flag as they are listed above and from my reading it lists five flags the commonwealth flag st george's day flag pride flag armed forces day flag and the merchant navy flag therefore my reading of county councillor roberts motion is all of these are acceptable to reform uk except the pride flag and i was going to ask him if i've read that list correctly but i think he's already confirmed that is the case so next i thought i would see the council views of a dear friend of mine on this matter and this is what they said to me it doesn't really affect me whether or not if county hall flies the pride flag but i'm a 30 something who pretty much knows what they're about and confident in who i am the people to who it might make a difference who do exist and live in places right across lancashire of younger people who haven't yet come to terms with it maybe members of staff in an organisation like this perhaps whom it says institutions i interact with who run my council as an example think i'm all right and they then concluded by saying councils are there to represent all lancastrians and that language matters fine words i would hope you agree a language does matter so my question to reform uk is this if your intention is or was to just ban the prime the pride flag be confident and clear and say so and if it is not say so too i look forward to seeing where this debate goes we will be supporting the amendment thank you thank you councillor riggett um councillor clifford please be as brief as you can thank you uh thank you mr chairman yes i will keep this very brief i mean it's obvious the 17th of may for reform that must be an awful day because that's the international day against homophobia biphobia and transphobia now you're 53 reform councillors now that sort of number will suggest that imagine some of your children fall under that category so how are you going to go home and say i've got a big important thing to do at county today yeah yeah could have done all sorts could help the farmers could have done this amazing things you could have done with your first notice of motion but you know what i stopped the pride flag i just cannot believe you think that's the most important thing i find it disgraceful our labour group will be fully supporting this we will vote against your substantial motion if you vote this down but what i will ask for is a name vote so chairman i'd like a name vote on this thank you councillor councillor snow please um as a new member on this council um gobsmacked if that's a parliamentary word no i am surprised mightily surprised might i am mightily surprised that we're debating this uh i'll try to keep my um contribution very very brief uh and i'll just and the list of flags we've discussed is uh is long but what happens if say donald trump is flying from windsor up to his scottish uh properties and he decides to uh um pay a surprise visit to see his protégés in uh county hall would we not be keen to fly the flag of the united states above our building well if um if uh it is entirely uh probable or possible certainly possible the uh russians decided to russians oh they're the people that funded reform didn't they on different different things and farage um so the russians decided to invade the baltic states and poland will we not be keen to fly the flags of those countries right thank you thank you councillor snort in the in the uh to be fair councillor asgar very quickly please councillor thank you thank you chair councils across the country are discussing this and it's time we do too our public buildings should reflect unity not division that means prioritizing the union flag the flag of england the lancashire flag royal standards and military ensigns symbols that represent us all not individual political causes this week also marks 29 years since the sabranica genocide the worst atrocity in europe since world war over 8 000 bosnian muslim men and boys were murdered simply for who they were we remember them and we recommit to standing against hate in all its forms never again must mean never again for everyone as we witness suffering in palestine kashmir and elsewhere we must not stay silent we must stand for injustice for peace for justice for peace and for humanity thank you thank you councillor um could i ask councillor mils did you want to talk to you want to speak as a seconder no i'd like to move to the vote right okay i'll now call upon councillor roberts thank you thank you chair so just to all the responses inclusivity isn't measured by the number of flags flown it's reflecting our policies services and engagement the flag policy is about civic neutrality and unity not exclusion langshire continues to support diverse communities through funding outreach and representation this policy simply ensures that public buildings reflect shared civic identity celebrating our local and national identity and acknowledging the important role of our armed forces playing the safety of our country we want to foster a cultural inclusion and we believe the flags we support will bring this spirit i object the amendments thank you councillor just before we go to the vote i'm going to ask the chief exec just to let you know exactly what you're voting on thank you chairman council of councillor council are voting at the moment on the amendment put forward by councillor alley with that in mind i think mr chairman can i just raise a point of order yep obviously i'm new to the county council as many others are i have service on a borough council previously but as a point of order on motion one four councillors left the chamber and missed part of the debate and voted on it sorry on motion one four councillors left the chamber but came back and voted on it and weren't in for the debate i'm aware of four councillors have left the chamber during the course of this debate so as a point of order should they be allowed to vote i'll take some advice on this thank you for pointing that uh chairman as long as members are in their seat at the point they vote then they are entitled to vote so it was called for a name vote on the right yeah so yeah members i'll read the names and obviously then if you if you call out your vote so councillor anderson councillor alderson pancillor ali councillor arif councillor asgar councillor ash councillor ashton councillor marion atkinson councillor stephen atkinson against councillor austin councillor bolchin councillor barnes councillor blake Councillor Brown Councillor Buckley Councillor Clemson Councillor Clemson John Clemson Councillor Clifford Councillor Close Councillor Cottom Councillor Crimmins Councillor Dalton Councillor De Freitas Councillor Dowding Councillor Duke Councillor Duxbury Councillor Dwyer Councillor Edwards Councillor Evans Councillor Fox Councillor Goldsworthy Councillor Graham Councillor Gummer Councillor Hargreaves Councillor Hartley Councillor Haworth Councillor Hutchinson Councillor Jewell Councillor Johnson Councillor Alice Jones Councillor Maria Jones Against in bold Councillor Joins Councillor Cameron Councillor Niverton Councillor Katavisius Councillor Lavallet Councillor Lord Councillor Matchett Councillor McCollum Councillor Mills Councillor Murphine Against Councillor Moore Councillor Lorenzo Moore Councillor Owens Cancellor Councillor Muller Councillor Parker Councillor Parkinson und Councillor McCallum Councillor Pickup Councillor Potter Councillor Councillor Poulton Councillor Razekazi Councillor Councillor Rigby Councillor Riggett Councillor Ritson Councillor Roberts against Councillor Salter Councillor Shaw Councillor Snape Councillor Snow Councillor Stubbins Paul. Councillor Sutton Councillor Swales Councillor Tetlow Councillor Thompson Councillor Tomlinson Councillor Top Councillor Wade Councillor Walsh Councillor Wally Councillor Whip Councillor Walsh Councillor Worthington Thank you members So the result of that were 427 against 52 no abstentions so against so we now return to the substantive motion which we're going to go straight to the vote yes okay so now we're going yep to the substantive motion and we will vote so all in favour of the substantive motion please show of hands down against down abstentions down abstentions down thank you chair could we have a comfort break for five minutes let me finish this first Councillor Ali and then we'll have a wee comfort break if you would like if you would like so the result of that vote is 21 against 51 for two abstentions so the notice of motion carried forward okay thank you now on Councillor Ali's request we will have a ten minute comfort break from now thank you I'm sorry it's my background I do like a bit of discipline anyway here we go notice of motion three Councillor Dowden please put forward your notice of motion thank you chair colleagues I'm sure this is a motion that we're all going to be able to very easily unite behind because this motion is about truly improving the quality of life across all residents in Lancashire because it's about empowering our communities improving democracy by replacing the out of date first past the post voting system in local elections with a fairer proportional system Lancashire Lancashire needs a fairer voting system why because proportional representation in some form in local elections would boost turnout would therefore make the council more representative of its residents improve the quality of decision making and thereby benefiting all Lancashire residents I'm sure the motion itself is not going to be controversial the Greens the Green Party we've committed to bringing in a fairer voting system and it's in our manifesto and has been for a long time I'm aware that the Lib Dem similarly support a fairer voting system as a matter of principle it's about the principle of engaging people everybody has a voice everybody's voice in some way should be represented I understand that Labour today are going to have a free vote on this issue despite the fact that nationally they haven't quite woken up and smelt the coffee the fact that the two-party system is dead and that there's going to be a need for working together in coalitions both at a national level and locally at the last four council Councillor Rigger was in effect calling for proportional representation when he was referring to the voting figures and how the stats really should have entitled him to be leader of the main opposition group but because of the system we have that didn't work out like that and of course reform Nigel Farage said on May the 5th after the local elections he reaffirmed his commitment to introduce an element of proportionality into UK elections he proposed adopting an AV style system alongside a full overhaul of the House of Lords and more public referendums on key issues so it's great to hear that after the local election despite the fact that reform had done so well on first past the post they were reiterating their support for voting system change because of course in their manifesto last year they included in their contract with you manifesto a pledge to hold a referendum on replacing first past the post with a proportional system and after the election last year they complained that the first past the post system is absolutely brutal and outdated which of course it is now of course there are many alternatives to first past the post my motion today deliberately doesn't go into recommending one or the other what we need to do today is just establish the principle of introducing a fairer voting system at local elections we know that that happens elsewhere across the UK already in the greater London assembly northern Ireland Scotland and um and northern Ireland and Wales so I deliberately didn't bring in a proposal because that's what's not on the that's what's not needed now what we need is to all confirm affirm our commitment to a fairer voting system but I just thought I would highlight the figures because we have heard the current administration consistently argue what a strong mandate they have um obviously it's very clear that in terms of number of councillors elected they've got a strong majority but there 63% of the seats were won with just 36% of the votes and actually on this occasion nearly every other group suffered from the first past the post but nobody really benefits because a mandate isn't a mandate if it's not really based on a consensus and the 36% of the votes were based on a 33% turnout appalling so actually that's a 12% of the voters in Lancashire voting for the party now in the administration so I urge you all to please support this in principle call for Lancashire to be able to introduce a fairer voting system and thereby empower its communities and improve the lives of the people of Lancashire. Thank you Councillor Dowden. Have we got a seconder for that motion please? Thank you chair I am happy to second Councillor Dowding's motion on proportional representation. We are all aware that the government is currently reviewing the structure of how the county and district councils are set up and work together regardless of the outcome of this this does offer us a good opportunity to review the way in which we vote for our elected representatives and to bring it in line with other jurisdictions across the UK such as Wales and Scotland who use forms of proportional representation for district regional and national elections. It is clear that the two-party system is breaking down. Increasingly voters don't see either of the big two parties as at all in tune with their views and interests. The first faster poll system however mitigates against the full range of parties getting appropriate representation and the election of members that reflect the scale of the vote they receive. Historically this has worked against the Lib Dems, the Greens and a range of other small parties. It is much fairer and more just that our elections should reflect the full range of voices who stand in elections. It is important that in an advanced and mature democracy all views are heard and represented. Of course there are many different systems that can be adopted. However, the conversation of which proportional representation system to use would be a good way to engage and consult with other political and non-political organisations, members of the public and trade unions, etc. As a final point, it would bring us more up to date as the first-past-the-post system is out of date for Victorian system and in need of a review and would also build trust with the communities we serve if we include them in the process, only helping to increase Lancashire County Council's reputation as a progressive and innovative council ready to adapt to more efficient systems and ways of working. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor. Before I open this up, are there any amendments? Councillor Witt. Thank you, Mr Chairman. I think the amendment is on the second page and it's to add at the end including alternative voting in mayor elections and single transferable voting in multi-member wards for new unitary councils. And Mr Mayor, sorry, Mr Chairman, I do apologise. The last time there was a majority of 50% popular support in a general election was I think in 1880 when the general election returned a liberal government to power. So it's nearly 150 years since the general election was won on over 50% of the vote. I all-heartedly and the Liberal Democrat group all-heartedly support the motion that's been put forward but we do think it needs sharpening up. Very recently the government has agreed to have supplementary voting for mayors in the future and that is a step in the right direction but it doesn't go far enough. and we've heard today that the franchise is to be extended to 16 and 17-year-olds by the next general election. So these are very welcome and positive steps but if we're going to truly engage with residents, with voters, we need rather radical proposals in order to get people's interest. And I think the reference to turnout is particularly relevant because it's an absolute diabolical disgrace that we have elections where fewer than 30% of people are voting. And I don't decry the voters. I think there is the issue that we as local representatives aren't exciting enough. But actually giving people a choice and giving them a system in which their votes really do count will mean that people are much more likely to vote. So it's inclusive, we get engagement, it's encouraging diversity, and if we can help to address the democratic deficit that's coming, because with the advent of unitary authorities, the number of elected councillors in Lancashire will dramatically decrease. So how do those fewer and fewer councillors truly represent the people that they're elected? councillor which sum up please? And so the amendment is just to sharpen up the resolution and I hope that it will be accepted by the mover. Thank you councillor whip. So the amendment, councillor dowden, do you accept this as a friendly amendment? I have to say, apologies to councillor whip, it's with a heavy heart I don't accept this as a friendly amendment because the original motion deliberately didn't call for any specific type of fairer voting system. I think I didn't want to get into the weeds and I think we could get into the weeds. You argue it makes it sharper, I think we're going into the weeds, so no. Not friendly. You have to vote on it, please. In the interest of harmony, there's no way a couple of minute talk would sort it out between the two of you? no? Okay. Yes, that's what I just said, yep. Okay. Thank you members, councillor Dowden, give me the good news. Thank you for your patience. We'll go to the vote on this as an unfriendly amendment and see what happens. So you're not accepting it? No. Okay. So we'll now debate the amendment. So I second. Sorry, second it. I second the amendment, Mr Chairman. And reserve the right to speak. Thank you. We're now debating it. Councillor Rigott, please. Well, sorry, Mr Chairman, I wasn't quite expecting to be called on this part, but the comments I was going to say apply to this or the previous amendment. There's been some uncoordinated consensus in the opposition benches today. I was comfortable to say I believed in the science of climate change and I fly the pride flag. Yet I'm still a conservative. Could I just stop you there? I don't hate to say it, I was going to say that, but Councillor Dowden is a great speaker. Please take a leaf out of her book. Speak clearly and loud. Thank you very much. Mr. Chairman, could you seek advice from the chief executive whether I could withdraw my support for nominating you for chairman of the last meeting? I'm sorry, it's the habit of when you were up there, the microphones were much taller and it was natural to stand and speak. I do apologise, it's the new life I have to get used to. But like I say, there's been some uncoordinated consensus in the opposition benches today. I was comfortable to say I support the science of climate change, I'll fly the pride flag, yet I'm still a conservative and I do believe in first past the post still being the best system, even when you lose. So I will not be supporting this motion and without wanting to reheat old arguments, I just find it somewhat ironic that Councillor Dowding has brought this amendment. When I looked through the list of all the parties listed in the county council election results, there appears to be no progressive Lancashire, but I think we've done that one to death for now. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Atkinson, please. In response to previous comments made that is this the biggest priority flags, the next election is not until three years away. So I think you've got to just reflect on that. But what I would just say, which I think is really important, is that the reform commitment was in a general election, which is now passed. That manifesto was for a general election, not for this election. I do find it strange that because reform have benefited from this system, all of a sudden, everybody else wants to change the system, apart from counter-rigor. I think if you look at the experience on the continent, where you have proportional representation, coalitions are created after the vote, which means that nobody gets what they voted for. In this country, the coalition of voters is gathered together before the vote to create the first-past-the-post system. We will be voting down this amendment because we actually think that this council has got more important things to do than getting into this debate at this time. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Owens, please. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Obviously, I'm not going to win any vote today, but I find myself in an unusual position, really, because all my political life I've been a firm supporter of first-past-the-post. The situation is different. The situation has changed. We're no longer in a two-and-a-half party system. Sorry, I only see you as a half party, or did do. We're now in a four- or five-party or six-party system. If you look at Wales and Scotland, I'm quite happy with the original motion, which I hope we get back to. I'm not in favour of this amendment. It talks about things that haven't happened yet. We haven't got unitary authorities here in the Lancashire County Council area as yet. A single transferable vote would mean very large constituencies that would distance their councillor from their electors. They're already large enough, I thought they were when I was pounding around the streets, without making them three or four times larger, which this proposal in the amendment would do. I won't be supporting the amendment. I will support the original motion because I think with four- or five-party system, then we need to look at a different system of voting. I think the way to trial that would be in local government. I'm not in favour of a change to PR at national level at this time or in the foreseeable future, but in local government, I think we're good at trialling things. We get things dumped on us by national government anyway, and I think it's time has come. I'm amazed that I've ever said that, because I never thought I'd be speaking in favour of such a motion. Thank you, Councillor Owens. Councillor Parker, please. Thank you, Chair. I think we've all heard for the calls for proportional voting because of the amount and percentage that Reform UK took at the local elections, and we need to be honest that this isn't about fairness, it's about frustration from people who lost. The public didn't ask for a new voting system, they asked for change, and that's what they got. Thank you, Councillor Parker. Councillor Snow, please. Thank you, Chair. I want to speak against the amendment briefly. I don't like the prescription of the alternative voting system for the mayoral elections, but in particular, single transferable voting in the multi-member wards for the new unitary authorities. we don't know how they're going to be shaped. We've no idea. We'll all want it to our own political advantage. There's no system any more particularly fair than other than the fact that the first-past of the polls isn't fair, though. For a long time, I was in favour of that. The Labour Party has a history of being in favour of proportional representation. Keir Hardy was in favour of proportional representation. I think I might be right that 1951, when Labour Party lost, they had the majority of the vote. Thank you, Councillor Snor. Councillor Murphin, please. Goodness gracious, the subject really, really close to my heart. I feel like I'm in the position of university lecturer in my political science department. Electoral systems serve two purposes. They are descriptive of an existing reality. That's what you get with a first-past the post system. It's hardly surprising that we've got a number of people today who are calling for a change in the electoral system. Guess what? They don't like the fact that reform did so well. in the last election. What they want to do is prevent that scenario in the future. I'm afraid mass de-alignment of political parties is here to stay. What you're seeing is an interesting historical choke point that we've reached in this country where you've got Labour and the Conservatives who are dying, if not they've already died, and we'll probably lose a lot more seats in the general election and the next set of council elections going forward, and that process will continue. It's interesting that this historical choke point represents the birth of a new party, reform, a populist, dare I say, middle ground, because it's not an extreme party, and perhaps the rebirth of the Lib Dems replacing Labour. Is this 1922, 23, all over again? This was the end of the strange death of Liberal England that Martin Dangerfield talked so eloquently about when the Liberal Democrats, when the Liberals died and were replaced by a trade union led Labour party. The reality is that mass de-alignment in this country is occurring, it is a reality, and if the two uniparties try to re-engineer and try to create a prescriptive model of electoral systems, whereby they try to engineer results in their favour, I can tell you what, the general public will not like that, and they will vote even more strongly for the newly disruptive force that is reform in the UK. So if they're going to try to do that, bring it on. Thank you, Councillor Murphan. Members? Members, before I continue, we've got seven minutes left on this, so please be brief. Councillor Potter, please. Thank you, Chair. Just to continue the history lesson a little bit, those people seem to think that Lib Dems have been only in favour of this recently because of the mayor local elections, sorely need to know their history. The Liberals have been going about this since the 1970s. In fact, Paddy Ashdown and Tony Blair came this close to actually having an alliance on it, and Tony Blair decided, not unsurprisingly, when you get a huge majority, more important is to protect that majority than doing the right thing. And actually, you know, part of this is actually about reform. It is generally about reform, but not for the reasons you think. I think it was disgraceful last year reform only ended up with five MPs. They got the same number of votes as the Lib Dems. Our system should reward parties for the number of votes they get, even if those parties are not something I agree with, because that's fair. And what the problem the current system does, and I'll talk about the amendment in just a second, voters move. The BMP morphed into something else, and then they morphed into UKIP, and then they morphed into reform. The politics doesn't go, it morphs to other parties. And so far right parties... Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Move the chair, please. Thank you. Council Potter. So my view is that you can't ignore extreme parties on either the left or the right, because they end up morphing anyway. The Conservative parties lurched to the right, and the Labour parties lurched to the left under Corbyn, was just a reaction to those folks feeling disenfranchised. And it is noticeable that there's only one country in Europe that does not have a proportional system, and that's Belarus, which is an autocracy masquerading as a democracy. First past the post is a failed system. Now, I believe that single transferable vote is the best way of going it. And the gentleman from the Owls there talking about larger constituencies, there are a multitude of different systems that take into account areas. In Germany, they still have a constituency followed by a list system. So don't be fooled by simplistic arguments. What it does, and what the most important thing it does, is it makes it about the voters. Because the more proportional your system is, the more likely the voters have more power. And the people that advocate for first past the post and the current system are people that want to hold onto power as opposed to doing what's right by their residents. That's why people in my party have been advocating this for 30-odd years. And I can also criticise the Liberal, and I will do. I think Justin Trudeau in Canada had an opportunity to change that system in Canada. He got power and he welched from it. And he was this close. If it hadn't been for Donald Trump completely destroying the conservative Canadian candidate this time, the Canadian Liberals would have lost. And so what's going to happen now, and I urge Labour government, is you are going to probably lose power next election. And massive swings of power, left to right, right to left, and not democratic. They miss out that huge chunk in the middle of people that don't believe in extremes in politics. And what the alternative voting system and a single-prongable vote means is the fairest system I believe in, I think you should accept the amendment, and if we don't accept it, you should vote for the substantive. Thank you, Councillor Potter. I'm asking you now to be very quick, because I'm going to have to put a stop to this if you're not. Councillor Balchin, please. My comments really are for the next meeting and the next lot of motions we put in. I joined this council to improve the lives of people in Lancashire, not sit here and listen to a load of tea-time politics by a load of wannabe MPs. So if I understand this motion properly and we're in the unlikely event that we were to vote for it, we send a letter to Angela saying, oh, please give us proportional representation, and Angela sends us a letter back saying, no, and that's it, and you lot have just gone on and on and on. Quite unbelievable. Thank you, Councillor. Back now to the second, Councillor Jewel, would you like to speak? Thank you so much, Mr Chairman. For too long, first past the post has distorted our democracy. In the recent 2024 general election, this was the most unrepresentative in terms of votes cast and seats taken, yet the most diverse, with four parties getting over 10% of the vote across the UK. The only other European country to use first past the post is Belarus, that bastion of democracy. When you get beyond a two-party system, PR is the fairest system to represent diverse views of the electorate. It engages the electorate that their vote matters and can influence outcomes. All too often, they feel their vote is wasted. Only within the past month, the National Centre for Social Research published findings of the British Social Attitude Survey, showing that 60% of the British public support proportional representation. The same data identified a clear majority, 55% of Labour supporters supporting this, and indeed the Labour Party voted overwhelmingly in support of PR at their conference in 2022. The same survey even identified a small majority of Conservative support. It jumped from 24% to 52% over the past year, and the Liberal Democrats and Greens have been consistent with their support for this policy, whether in power or not. I must admit, going into this, I was not sure what the reform policy was. I have heard your illustrious leader speak both for it and against it, and I was a little bit confused by Councillor Dowding's comments, but I think Councillor Atkinson has given clarity that they will be voting against this. PR would restore trust in our representative democracy and in politics. Huge members support, and I urge members, so the nation wants PR, sorry, the nation wants PR, and I urge members to vote for this motion. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Thank you, Councillor. I'm going to ask Councillor Dowden now to speak if she wants to. I'd like to sum up, but should we just have this vote on the amendment and then I speak? No, fine. Got a right to reply on the amendment, then we vote on it, and then we go to the substantial. Very quickly. To address some of the points that have been made, and frustration with the timing and this debate and the fact that we haven't got elections for possibly another two or three years, this motion is about calling for legislation because at the moment we don't have the control over the voting system that we use. Even if you had stuck to your party's policy on this and wanted change, you couldn't do it. We need to actually get government support. We know that legislation takes a long time. So that's why the call is for now for Angela Rayner to introduce that legislation, and it has been introduced so that Wales could check it. I just need to move on now. Could you sum up, please? So, it's disappointing to hear that anyone is confused. The Reform UK, Nigel Farage, has consistently called for voting reform and a fairer system. So I'm summing up by saying it is bizarre. It is bizarre to hear reform voting against one of their key national policies because it doesn't suit them, despite the fact that their leader, Nigel Farage, has consistently called for voting change and has even done so since May 2025. I urge you to reconsider for this long-term democracy. Thank you, Councillor Dowden. Thanks for your understanding with that. Okay, on the amendment, we're going to vote on it now. Okay, so all in favour of the amendment, please show. down, against, against, down, abstentions, we got that? I think that was clear. We are now going to the original motion. So, straight to the vote? Yes, of course. Here we go. all in favour of the original motion, please show. Down, against, against, down, any abstentions? Down. Thank you very much. Moving on to the fourth and final motion. Councillor Evans, please put forward your notice of motion. Thank you very much, Chairman. I think this is something we could do, hopefully, I guess, at speed, and something that all councillors and officers and citizens of this county can get behind. But this is a time when your right to have a voice, to have a thought, is decreased daily by those who pass legislation that entails your rights to a voice and personal freedom. We see rafts of legislation brought into any debate without regard for what people want or need. We only have to look at the government's ever-expanding scope of power, which tells us what we can or cannot say without fine, seizure, or jail, or under the pretext of morality. More worrying now, legislation that not only curtail your rights of freedom of speech, but go further to tell you what you can think and what you cannot in the privacy of your own home. This demonstrated in the hate crime legislation recently proposed in Scotland and voted and supported by the Scottish Labour Party. Whilst it's proper to prosecute those who cause violence, damage, destruction to our communities and people, quite rightly, can the same be said for those who advocate their thoughts. The days of the Orwellian state have truly arrived in the guise of woke doctrine designed to frighten citizens into submission of compliance to other people's views of how life should be conducted in a twisted morality society and without your compliance you will be cancelled and branded as social mariah. If you have not read or watched Georgia Orwell's 1984, I implore you to do so and draw your own conclusions of the parallels of 1984 and today. Members of the UK media should be taking note of this direction of travel, this agenda. They need to be watching and reporting closely. It is time for Britain and for this country to wake up. It is time for us to remind British people who they really are because if we fail in this then all else fails and we start by telling the truth. It is not about hope or wishful thinking, it is about trusting ourselves and our values, our strengths, our history and the ideas that we have always built a free, safe, healthy society. We all know that no matter what, if you refer to these values, we can and we will navigate our way through difficulties fairly with a clear conscience and with effectively because we will take the right action. Reform has its core values and principles. These are values that we will always defend regardless of the narrative peddled by media, lobbyists or other government and non-governmental forces. We stand steadfast in our convictions and values. The core values are freedom, independent, choice and opportunity for every citizen. We will, as a party, protect your freedoms and yes, that includes all councillors and all elected members, officers and citizens of Lancashire and the British people's fundamental rights and freedoms, personal, economic and otherwise. They give us the moral fabric of our nation, which ancestors have fought to defend because freedom cannot be given by the state. It is our birthright. We are free and we will protect that. We, as a party, are the epicentre and defender of free speech, free debate, which has developed innovative new practice for new age of politics. This policy has a pragmatic implementation that delivers common sense solutions that this country and this county desperately needs. Yet, let's let Lancashire be the shining light of democracy and freedom of speech. So I move this motion to Pichana. Thank you, Councillor Evans. Have we got a seconder, please? Yes, Chair, I'd like to second, please. I just want to read a statement out in support of that, please. Thank you. I'm proud to second this motion and I'd like to thank Councillor Evans for bringing it forward. Like Councillor Evans, I've experienced personally how fragile, free speech can be within public institutions, particularly when political expression doesn't align with the dominant narrative. I'm a mental health nurse working for the NHS and I've lived and worked in Lancashire all of my life. Last year, I stood as the Reform UK parliamentary candidate for Rosendale and Darwin. It was a bold and necessary step and fuelled by a deep concern for the direction of our country and a desire to offer voters a genuine alternative. Our campaign resonated strongly with the public. We achieved 22% of the votes, nearly 10,000 votes, and helped unseat a long-standing MP. Ironically, that same former MP joined Reform UK just last week. A key part of our campaign's success was a professional video we produced and shared online. It gained about 100,000 views in its first 24 hours. And that's when the problems began. The video included just eight seconds of me in my nurse's uniform on trust property, talking to an imaginary patient, and walking through a doorway. No logos were visible, no patients were present, and I had acted with complete professionalism. In fact, under modern NHS social media policy, designed to reflect the realities of the digital age, health professionals including nurses, consultants, managers, and directors are permitted to appear in uniform on social media, so long as they are acting professionally and do not bring the trust into disrepute. I followed those guidelines to the letter, and yet within a day of the video going live, I was ordered by the trust to take it down, with a threat of disciplinary action, if I didn't comply, even up to dismissal. I was subsequently accused of being unprofessional, bringing the trust into disrepute, and most shockingly, of exhibiting racist, xenophobic, homophobic, transphobic behaviour, because when you don't align with the dominant narrative, that's what we are accused of. These accusations were baseless and unrelated to the original concern. At no point had I breached any trust or national NHS policy. If anything, it became clear that the trust had no specific policy for the NHS staff standing for public office. After a lengthy disciplinary process, and with legal representation, the trust eventually admitted that there was no case to answer. And I would like to emphasise that. I had no case to answer in the end. But by that point, the damage was done. The momentum of the campaign had been lost, and my reputation had been unfairly called into question. And I was left with a legal bill of thousands, just to defend my right to participate in democracy. More worrying is what I've seen since. I know many colleagues and friends who quietly support the policies of reform, and indeed others who support different legitimate political parties registered with the Electoral Commission, but would never dare... Councillor, could I ask you to sum up, please? Yeah, will do. Today I found myself in the ironic position of being the Cabinet Member for Health and Wellbeing, here in Lancashire, and by default sitting on the Council of Governors of the very same trust. These experiences only strengthened my belief in importance of this motion. This principle must apply across Lancashire, not just in this Council Chamber, but in public services, workplaces, educational institutions... Thank you, Council. Thank you very much. Thank you. Before we go to the indicated speakers, are there any amendments? Councillor Alley. Thank you, Chair. There's an amendment that's on the screen there. A couple of weeks ago, I was at the LGA conference and had a few drinks with Jed and Simon and put the world to rights. And as part of the discussion, I won't go into it because it will be here all night, but we were, I think, quite late. But we had a really good discussion around a number of issues. And yes, we agreed, actually, a lot more than we thought we probably would have done. But we did agree, and it wasn't the alcohol that Simon or Jed consumed. But I think in terms of freedom of speech, it is the motion that Simon's put up. All I've tried to do is strengthen that as best as I can. Freedom of speech is a right, but freedom of speech comes with responsibility. Not rhetoric, but based on reality or life. In this council, do we have a freedom of speech policy? No, we don't. As far as I'm aware, if Mark shook his head out of his knowledge. But there is a no overall speech policy, but we have an officer code of conduct. Paragraph 13, statement of ethical standards. Paragraph 2.5, whistleblowing policies and safeguarding policies, and the list goes on and on and on. And my motion is very clear. Continue the culture of freedom of speech within Lancashire without inciting hatred and division. And two, ask the chief exec to ensure continued compliance because we always comply as an authority and officers do a great job to ensure that all our policies comply. For all policy reviews to enable free speech in line with UK law and the Nolan principles, we are governed by the Nolan principles as elected members. And those principles are selflessness, integrity, objectivity, accountability, openness, honesty and leadership. And I think those are values that all of us subscribe to. We'll agree to disagree on a lot of things, but a lot more unites us, I think, in this chamber than divides us. And I think that's why I wanted to move that amendment. And I know that in our exchange of conversation and email that Simon had indicated that we were prepared to accept that because it's in the spirit of cooperation and working together. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Ali. I think I'm right in saying that's going to be accepted. Yes, I'm happy to accept and thank you to the council for his work on that. Right. So now that becomes the main notice of motion and we're going to go to the speakers on that. Councillor Cavalette, please. Cavalette? Yeah. What did I say? It's all those foreign names. No, sorry. I'll put the chief exec back to school. It wasn't even my accent, not at this point. OK, so obviously I want to support the motion overall, but I want to raise a couple of concerns, really. First of all, I want to raise a concern that I have had throughout my time as a councillor at Preston City councillor and through here, and that is the motions are brought forward when they're brought forward by cabinet members. In my opinion, cabinet have got ample opportunity to bring business to council and that it should be backbenchers, backbenchers from reform, that's fine, but it should be backbenchers who use this opportunity to bring motions forward. And I think it's showed badly on reform that both their motions today have come forward from cabinet members, so that's the first thing. The second thing is that I think that motion absolutely agrees that I'm for the greatest freedom of speech, the greatest democracy, I'm for a deepening of democracy as far as we can possibly go, but I must admit that the second sentence in this I think is utterly confusing. It's thrown in, I think, as gesture politics to try and for a nod outside, but it confuses me, because are we really saying that if I want to talk about child sexual exploitation or abuse from now on, that I should be noting that the vast majority of those are white men who carry out those, is that what they are asking us to do, to note the ethnicity of those perpetrators, or should I say that every time I talk about domestic violence, like we did earlier on today, that we should note that the majority of domestic violence, the high point for domestic violence is that Christmas, it takes part in the family, and the majority of those abuses take place within white Christian families. I wouldn't dream of saying those, but is that the logic of where they want to take us, or perhaps they're just nodding in the direction of dog-whistle politics coming from elsewhere. However, I think it's absolutely right that we have a policy like this, but I do think there's a degree of hypocrisy from the reform members, because pressed and reform have put in an official complaint about me, about my freedom of speech, to speak about Palestinian issues. So I want to make it clear, freedom of speech is freedom of speech for everybody, whether you like it or not, we have the right to talk about genocide, we have the right to talk about what's going on in Gaza, and we have every single right to talk about those things in this council and outside. That's what freedom of speech means. I'm glad that you're now supporting those rights, and I really do think you should look at your own members who are trying to shut members up for raising those kind of issues. Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Cameron, please. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I stand in full support of the principle of free speech, especially within democratic society and institutions like this one. Free speech should empower the voiceless and not only amplify the powerful. As cited in the original motion, Article 10 of the Human Rights Act 1998 explicitly protects the rights of freedom of expression, discrimination, but importantly, it allows for legal restrictions in order to protect the rights of others, public safety, and to prevent disorder or harm. If this motion is to be approved, can the proposer please clarify how does this motion ensure that those legal limits will be upheld in practice? And crucially, how will it prevent free speech from being misused, misused to silence minority communities, silence vulnerable groups, and individuals whose lived experiences are often dismissed under the guise of freedom of expression by those in positions of power? Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Cameron. Councillor Aris, please. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let me begin by stating very clearly that free speech is a fundamental right to our democracy. It protects the right to challenge authority and to scrutinise institutions. It is often through free speech that injustice is first exposed and social progress begins. As a member of the legal profession and as someone who is committed to public service, I recognise the vital importance of free speech in a democratic society. It underpins our ability to challenge power, expose wrongdoing, and protect the vulnerable people in our society. But we also know that, as the law makes very clear, that free speech is not absolute. Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which is rightly cited in this motion, is a qualified right. It must be exercised with responsibility, with regard to the rights of others and the need to prevent harm. We have proposed a very constructive amendment, which I believe has been welcomed. It retains the central commitment to free speech, but it adds crucial safeguards, ensuring that this principle is not misused to incite hatred or division, particularly in a diverse county like ours. Importantly, it links our duties to the Nolan principles of public life, like mentioned by my colleague, County Councillor Azhar Ali. Integrity, openness, accountability. These are not just abstract ideals. they are the ethical foundations of how we debate, how we govern and how we treat one another. This is not about silencing people. It's about ensuring that freedom of speech is matched with respect, legality and leadership. I'm pleased that this amendment has been welcomed and it's very principled, proportionate and it's aligned with the law and as the public's expectation. Thank you very much. Thank you, Councillor I've got four speakers left and only 13 minutes, so please be brief. Councillor Riggett, please. Thank you, Mr Chairman. I will be brief for you. I grew up in a socialist household. I had to read Tressel Orwell. Sounds like I need to read Orwell again, listening to the deputy leader moving forward. But I was just going to say we would support this motion, but the only reason I was rising to speak, we would support the original on the amendment, is I just hope the administration here don't fall into the same pattern that the Labour government did nationally, where they walk in a building and assume just because a different political party ran it before, everything needs throwing out and needs starting again. In my experience in eight years here, in between conversations between members and with officers, there was plenty of free speech, there was open expression of ideas and the way the original was drafted almost could be read as if that wasn't the case and you need to do it. So I just urge you sometimes to just maybe consider, I don't how does the authority actually behave before we try and say what we think it should do. That was all. We all support in this motion. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Rigott. Councillor Jewell, please. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll try and be as quick as I can. But, Mr. Chairman, I support this notice of motion because freedom of speech reflects the values of our democracy. I'm not entirely sure of the link between the Casey report and freedom of speech, but I welcome the reference to the European Commission on Human Rights. In January, the government asked Baroness Casey to carry out an audit examining data and evidence on the nature and scale of group-based child sexual abuse. And the lack of reliable data was the key part of the finding. It shied away from the ethnicity of perpetrators in two-thirds of cases, meaning that it was not possible to draw conclusions at a national level. And Baroness Casey's recommendations for a full national inquiry into child sexual exploitation has now been accepted by the Prime Minister. So, the European Convention on Human Rights was born out of the Second World War and gave those fundamental human rights that we value in Europe. And Article 10, as referenced in the Notice of Motion, relates to the freedom of expression, includes freedom of the press, for example. And this important treaty was incorporated into UK law by the Human Rights Act of 1998. And that legislation makes it clear, with the exercise of these freedoms, comes with it duties and responsibilities. Without these rights, there is no country, there is no democracy. It is not a licence to dog whistle. The reason, Mr Chairman, that I find this notice of motion a little odd is because Nigel Farage has called the UK to scrap the EU Human Rights Act. And as I've just explained above, there is no such thing as the EU Human Rights Act. But I suspect he knew what he was saying and playing his clickbait rhetoric. If indeed we come away from aligning ourselves to the European Convention on Human Rights, as we do in our own Human Rights Act, we would be joining Russia and Belarus as the only countries in Europe. Greece momentarily came out of it during their military queue, but came back in in the mid-70s. And I personally do not understand the substantive part of this notice of motion because I am sure this authority is already continuing to promote a culture of freedom of speech within the law, not inciting hatred. And I'm sure everyone in this chamber is living their political life via the Nolan principles. Nonetheless, I support it. Carry on as we are doing. Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. Thank you, Councillor Jewell. Councillor Potter, last time, folks, don't worry. So we vote in favour of this. I was a, back in the day, I was a journalism student right here in Preston, the reason why I came to this great city. But what we have to remember with freedom of speech is you are not free of consequence. And that's the point of it. Because you can be offended by something I say. You can be offended by something you. I can be offended by something you. Exactly. Well done, sir, for joining in. Participation is wonderful. So, but you can be offended by what a comedian says or a TV presenter or any one thing does not make that illegal. We have laws in that. So whatever we say in this chamber, we have laws in this land, as was in the political governance meeting, which you were in, Simon, when it's got discussed laws of defamation, libel, slander and incitement to hatred are all covered in the law. But like I said, what you don't have is if you say something stupid, you do not have the right to not be upset when someone thinks and takes umbrage at it. So we've got an example right here in the chamber that I fundamentally disagreed with. A reform councillor made a, he would say, a jokey comment comparing refugees to Nazi invaders. That was it. I found that very offensive. It's not illegal. He has absolutely the right to say that. And people seeing that post have absolutely the right to think, hmm, he might be a bit ignorant or hmm, he might be a bit racist. That is their right. You cannot play this both sides. And so, yes, I agree with the fundamental right to and I will defend the right of you guys to be offensive. That is your, that is your right under law. But, I will also have my right to make sure you suffer politically for it. And that is the basis of freedom of speech. So, this motion, I have no problem with whatsoever. I will vote in favour of it. But don't be fooled in thinking free speech doesn't mean you won't be called up for silly things you say in public. Thank you, Councillor Potter. Councillor Brown, please. Yeah, good evening. I'm going to be brief. Sure. Yeah, I mean, obviously I'm going to support the amendment here. And I think the key word for me is the culture of freedom of speech within Lancashire will not incite hatred and division. And I'm quite pleased that all this chamber is accepting this. And I think also we need to have freedom of speech everywhere. And I'm just also confused why we've got to link that with issues around certain groups in our society. But often things go too far. And I really want a reference and I really want an answer from the leader and Mr. Murphy as well. One of your candidates, Joe Custodio, has recently, who lost to me by 85 votes, he recently attended an event of patriotic alternative, which was organised in 2019 by Mork Collett, who himself appeared in the Dispatches documentary called Young Nazi and Proud, expressing admiration allegedly for the Third Reich. Now, you guys have really got to ask what kind of candidates are coming through, because this guy was 85 votes away from winning press to the Central West. I saw him off. Well, this is what we're seeing across the country with Reform UK, people with far-right views going close to places in public life like local councils and beyond. And there's a responsibility of all other parties to do this, to take it seriously. There should be no one like that who comes anywhere near public life. So I really want you to reflect on that, that one of your candidates is actually involving themselves with people who are far-right views of such extremity. And this is why freedom of speech must have the issue of making sure we don't, we avoid inciting hatred and division. And I really do hope we'll get an answer at some point why Reform are allowing people with those views to come forward, to stand for our community. Thank you very much. Thank you, Councillor Brown. Just to let you know, we wouldn't normally respond to an individual like that, an individual case like that, but I think the leader wants to speak. Councillor Atkinson. You know, I don't know this individual, but I don't think I should be speaking about him because of the rules of debate. What I will say is I'm glad that the Labour Party, particularly in Preston, has dealt with issues such as anti-Semitism among its members and more nationally. So I think it's right that we do hold up to the highest standards. Thank you. Thank you, Leader. Councillor Evans, would you like to sum up at all? No, I'm fine. Yeah. Okay. With that in mind, we are going to go to the vote. No one else has indicated. So can I have a show of hands, please, all in favour of this motion? Down. I think that's carried. And that brings us to the end of the meeting. Just before we sum up, I just want to say thank you very much for your attention, members. For you sitting there, every member that stayed the distance. It's been warm. It's not easy. I think the people in the public gallery that are still here deserve a medal. But thank you. And I hope you vaguely enjoyed it. So thank you very much. That brings us to the end of business. Councillor Dowden, just keep your seats, Councillor Dowden. Chair, thank you very much for your chairing today. I just want to say thank you for the compliment about my public speaking. It's a result of looking after my dear old dad, who was hard of hearing and who wouldn't wear a hearing aid. But I just want to say I'm not the only one struggling to hear other people today. Please could you just look in. We've got a lot of equipment in the room. Yeah. And it must be that there's something. The chief executive. It's a real strain. Unless I am following him already and becoming hard of hearing. The chief executive will take that on board and we'll look into it. But remember the mnemonic. Clear loud as an order with pauses. Clap. There we are. Thank you, members. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.