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Licensing Panel - Tuesday 25th June 2024 1.00 pm
June 25, 2024 View on council website Watch video of meeting or read trancriptTranscript
[BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] [BLANKAUDIO] Okay. Afternoon, everyone. We'll make a start. All right. So welcome today to this licensing panel hearing. And this hearing's been webcast so others can watch it, join in and know what's happening here. We'll begin by a round of introductions. My name's Councillor Amanda Pinnock. I'm the chair of the panel today, Councillor for the Ashborough Ward. If each attendee can introduce themselves, I'll start with Councillor Rylah. I'm Jane Rylah and I'm a Kirklees Councillor for Home Valley South. Councillor Zorino Meehan for Ashborough Ward. Tahir Hanif, Senior Legal Officer, Kirklees Council. Jordan Barrett, Licensing Officer. Fiona Goldsmith, Group Leader for Licensing. Thank you. The applicant. Sorry, I apologise. At the top there. Sorry. Could you identify yourselves? Kevin Allen, Kirklees Environmental Health. Alexandra Gary, Environmental Health. Thank you. I'll move over to the applicant. Can you identify yourself, please? Amy Lambert, owner of Alyssa Rail. Thank you. And the attendees, one by one, if you're able to identify yourselves. Right, Lodrick Edwin, a resident on Pickford Street. William Crosby, number nine, Pickford Street. Beverly Hay, One School Terrace. Julie Woodward, 720 Manchester Road. Thank you. So I just need to get confirmation from everyone here who's participating today that they've received copies of the licensing hearing procedure which explains how the hearing will be conducted and that it's been read and understood. So up to the applicant. Are you able to confirm? Yes. Thank you. And the objectors as well. Have you all received that, read it and understood it? Yes. Fantastic. Thank you. Okay. So we'll go through the agenda to begin with. The first item on the agenda is in relation to a site visit. Myselves and my colleagues visited the site. Is that correct? I went along to visit. Can you just confirm for me? Yes, I can confirm. Thank you. Declarations of interest. Anything to declare for my colleagues? Councillor Rylah? Nothing to declare. Councillor Amin? Nothing to declare. Thank you. Admissions of the public. This is a public meeting. And also it's been webcast so it can be seen by members of the public. Any deputations or petitions? Thank you. Okay. We'll go straight into why we're here. And it's in relation to an application for the full variation of Lassells situated at 5 Pickford Street, Millsbridge, Huddersfield. And I'll ask the licensing officer please to outline the application. Thank you, chair. On the 30th April 2024, the licensing department receives an application for the full variation of a premise license for Lassell Ryl, 5 Pickford Street, Millsbridge, Huddersfield, HG3, 4LH. A copy of this application and plan is shown at appendix A. The applicant has confirmed that the opening times on the application should reflect the sales of alcohol. This can be seen at appendix D. The licenseable activity is applied for as follows. So sale of alcohol on the premise Monday to Sunday 10 a.m. until 10 p.m. A total of 14 representations have been received in respect to this application. One from environmental health. The remaining have been received from residents. These representations consider the following licensing objectives would not be met should this full variation application be granted. These are the prevention of crime and disorder, public safety, the prevention of public nuisance, the protection of children from harm. A copy of the representations may be seen at appendix B. The applicant applied for a license for this premise in August 2023. The applicant applied for sale of alcohol Monday to Sunday 10 a.m. to 10 p.m. Live music 6.30 p.m. until 10.30 p.m. on Fridays. The application received 21 objections in total, one objection from environmental health and 20 from the members of the public. This application went to a hearing on the 11th of October 2023 and the panel decided to grant the license. However, only allowing the premise to sell alcohol between the hours of 10 a.m. to 6 p.m. and added a condition on the license that the licenseable activities must only take place inside the premise and no alcohol is allowed to be taken outside the premise or consumed outside the premise and also that the music should be inaudible to residents. A copy of this license can be seen at appendix C. The applicant has applied for a full variant deviation to increase the hours of sale of alcohol from 10 a.m. to 10 p.m. every day and they want to remove the conditions attached at the previous hearing. Thank you.
Thank you. Since the application was -- just moving on to questions now. So since the application was granted on the 11th of October, has the licensing service received any complaints from residents? We haven't received -- we've received one. I believe it was last week. I believe an event took place, but they had a temporary event notice submitted so they were allowed to have that event just regarding the drinking outside. But other than that, there's nothing that's been received. Are you able to tell us a little bit more about the 10s? I've just got here. So they've had three 10s so far. So one was on the 18th of November last year. That was at 6 p.m. till 10 p.m. They've also had one on the 6th of April 2024. That was 6 p.m. till 10 p.m. again. And they had one recently on the 15th of June 2024. And that was 4 till 10 p.m. And that's the one where the query came in regarding the outside drinking. Are you able to give us any details about those complaints? Just regarding one of the residents just asked whether they were allowed to have the activity outside, as obviously the conditions on the license stated at the last hearing that they weren't able to do so as per the license. But they have submitted a temporary event for that. So they are able to carry that activity out. Thank you. So more of a query than a complaint. We haven't received any complaints. Just wanted to clarify that. Thank you. Over to my colleagues. Councillor Rylah, any questions? Councillor Amman. >> So I have a couple of questions. So just on the 10s, and I have this for the applicant, was there any police involvement in any of those events? >> Sorry, Councillor Amman, we're asking the licensing officer. I'm sure he could answer those questions as well. So is there any police involvement? >> No. No police involvement. And then the other one was all right, so we're asking about the license. So I'm a bit thinking about the description. It says the hours would like to change and variation to the front outdoor area of the premises. Does that mean that it will include alcohol outside and live music outside? >> They just want to remove the condition for the consumption of alcohol outside. So obviously the sale of alcohol will take place outside. And I think it's just be allowed to be able to sit outside and drink the alcohol. Anyone have any questions for the licensing officer so far? Okay. Thank you. So we'll move over to the applicant to outline the application. So the reason for my variation was mainly I want my -- be able to -- I want the flexibility of being able to sell alcohol. I know that if I put a temporary event notice in, I've got to give the council ten days notice. And what I've experienced since opening is I've had people that are wanting a baby shower or party, and they've given me short notice. So in that respect, I've had to turn people away. So that's one of the reasons. Another reason is, again, with the outside drinking, when I opened this, I wanted to do things that I know that I would enjoy. For example, going out and having a nice lunch and enjoying a glass of wine in the sun, and to not be able to do that, it's really restrictive. I had -- I've had a few people over the past few weeks on nice days wanting to have a drink outside, and I've had to, again, turn people away. So I feel it's beneficial for my business. Any other comments to make? Not at the moment. Thank you. Okay. All right. We'll move over to questions then. So since the license was granted on the 11th of October, how has the business been? How would you describe it? It was a slow start because of where we're situated, I think. But I think over the last few months, yeah, it's picked up. It's doing okay. And the licensing officer says you've held three tens, 18th of November, 6th of April, 15th of June. How have those gone? How would you -- Yeah, really well. Again, the clientele that come in are sensible people, and, yeah, that's who come and enjoy the shop really. Out of interest, what sort of clientele are you getting? I guess a mix of ages. But mainly I'd say, oh, I don't know. Yeah, it's a mix. But families as well, because at first I think people thought that they couldn't -- it was a sort of premises where they couldn't bring their families. But I've noticed, again, over the last few months we're getting a lot of families in. And, again, that's definitely who I wanted to target, so mixed variety. I'll leave it there for now. I'll go over to my colleague to see if they've got any questions. Can I ask, do you envisage the premises being open? How many days or which days in particular? Again, the opening hours won't change as what it stands at the moment. The reason for the hours of the licence is the flexibility and to not have to keep putting the temporary event notice in each time I want an event. I don't have the intention of opening particularly much more than what I'm opening now. It's just then I know that's in place, and then on a nice day somebody wants to sit outside as well and have a glass of wine, then they can. I mean, I have three people that work from it. My mum, who's 65, doesn't want to work any more than what she's working, and my two sisters that have a family and other commitments, and then there's me. So I haven't got the staff in order to open all the hours. And I don't wish to, I mean, I feel like since I've started I don't have much of a life other than the coffee shop. I don't really want to burden myself with any more pressure at the moment. Just coming back to that, so say per month, how many evenings do you think you would be open until 10 o'clock where people would be sitting outside? Definitely one, and then it depends if I had a party or somebody wanted to hire the venue out, which since I've started I've not had massive inquiries, but I've not actively advertised it due to the situation. But you would be open every Friday? No, I don't, no, no, no, I wouldn't be open every Friday. No, I'd say on average probably four times. That is maximum four times a month. Thank you. Can I just ask a little bit of clarity around that? So what are your opening hours at the moment? My opening hours at the moment are Tuesday to Saturday, 10 till 2. And if we were to grant the licence, the variation of the licence, what hours do you suspect you'd be open, so would you carry them 10 till 2, or is it likely to be more than that? No, I don't need to be open any more than 10 till 2, just standard on a daily basis. I've just had my new signs put outside that I put up last week, so I've got no intention of opening any longer than that. Okay. So if we were to grant the variation, then, you're saying there's certain times of the month where you're likely to open until later, the sale of alcohol inside and outside the premises. Can you just talk me through that? What are the proposals? How do you envisage that this is going to work? So at least once a month I've been trying to put these events on. I don't want to do any more than once a month, so then once a month, then that's when we'll be staying open later to the public. But other than that, it'll be venue higher, so if people come and hire out the venue, which I can't say exactly how many there'll be, but I know that I'll be restricting to how many I do do, because I can't accommodate too many. I can't do too late nights. You know, that's the thing. So it definitely, yeah, wouldn't be open every day till that time. It wouldn't be every Friday either, because I want to have my life as well. Can you tell us a little bit more about the venue hire? So who would you be hiring the venue to? Baby Shower, if people want Baby Showers, you know, anniversaries, parties. I've had a lot of inquiries actually of just larger groups, so a group of 10 that just want to come and have something to eat in the evening. That's the main people that I've had, not big gatherings, because I haven't got the space. Councillor Amman? So just following on from Councillor Pinnock's question, how many people can you accommodate outside, and then how many can you accommodate inside, maximum numbers? Well, outside I've only got three benches, and I think comfortably 10 outside, and then inside I think I could push 35 comfortably inside. In terms of your 10s and ongoing opening hours and running of the business, have you had any police complaints, and then have you had any complaints from residents that have approached you as well? Okay, any more questions from my colleagues? No, okay. All right, so I've got a few more questions. So in the pack of information that we received, we've seen that 21 objectors have raised objections to your application to vary, and some of the objectors have prepared emails which are attached to the paperwork. And I'm just wanting your comments on what's been said. So some of the objectors have said since the business opened on the 11th of October, there's issues with parking and congestion, so there are currently issues at the moment. Are you able to comment on that? >> When I arrived at work this morning, the street was full of cars. On Sunday my husband bobbed to the shop to get some things, and again he sent me pictures, and there was issues with parking, and I wasn't even open. Last week I took a few pictures as well. The street was full of cars. Again, I wasn't open. And I feel like there is a bit of presumption that if the street is busy and I am open, oh, they must be in the coffee shop, where sometimes we have got hardly any customers in there, and just me and my mum have had a conversation while we've worked, thinking where are all these people, because there's nobody in the coffee shop, but the road is full of cars. So it isn't -- I don't believe it is an issue. It might be an issue, but you're saying it's got nothing to do with you. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So again, going back to some of the things that the objectors have talked about, they are concerned about, you know, if the variation was granted until 10 p.m., how noise nuisance would impact them, how parking issues might impact them, and other things, and we will hear a little bit more about what they've got to say, but obviously you've seen the application, you've seen the pack. Have you got any comments to make about what's been said or what residents believe might happen? Yeah, I think it's pretty similar to concerns from what was said last time, and again, all I can do is, you know, ensure people that, you know, again, if they come in for an event, encourage them not to drive. Again, we'll be -- I mean, just to mention as well, these other -- these 10s that I put in, put until 10 o'clock, we were actually -- we were done by 9. We'd shut up early, so again, just in terms of the noise thing, I'm obviously very -- I'm very aware. I don't want to disturb anybody. I don't want to make a nuisance of myself and make, you know, a lot of noise. So if I can wrap it up early, I always try to. Yeah. Can I just explore a little bit what you said earlier on about outside, so if the variation was granted for inside and outside 10 a.m. to 10 p.m., and you said outside, there's three benches out there, but it can accommodate 10 people, do you think, you know, there could be issues there with noise nuisance? I'd like to think -- I'd like to think not. I don't see -- for me, if -- till that time, people might be outside just having soft drinks, so I don't know if that's going to make more noise than if people were sat out having alcohol, because I presume people could sit out until that time with soft drinks. If alcohol is involved, then there will be a bit of noise anyway, and again, it is a commercial building. It's always been a commercial building, you know. I'd try and keep the noise to an absolute minimum of what I could, and again, revert inside if the noise was excessive, definitely, because again, I'm a considerate person. I know that I wouldn't want -- and there's no need for, you know, noise to be such a volume. What about inside? So you said the capacity was 35. Do you think that possibly could cause some noise nuisance, and if it did, how would you mitigate -- how would you reduce that? We've had that amount of people inside with these temporary event notices, and it's never caused an issue. I don't feel like it has got too noisy. Just one more question from me. So Environmental Health have submitted a report as well, and they sort of indicate that they don't object to the variation indoors, but they have concerns about outdoor. Any comments on that? I think just again with the alcohol, you know, people are sat out having a drink, whether it's alcohol or a soft drink, there will be, you know, some level of noise, as if you were sat out in your garden next door having a barbecue with your friends, you know, that's the sort of situation I envision outside, not masses of people swarming, you know, coming, you know, to get legless, you know. It's not that sort of premises. It's not that sort of establishment. It would be civilised outside drinking, and obviously if anything other than that happened, then I would deal with it at the time. What sort of drinks would you be serving or what sort of drinks do you serve at the moment? We've got wine and beer. We've got spirits. That's it really. We've not got massive alcohol selection. All right. Yeah, so the picture's up there. So obviously as a panel, we're here to consider the variation and looking at that picture showing where the business is situated next to a residential property, and I don't know who that residential property belongs to. I don't know if the owners or the person who occupies that premises is in the room at the moment. Okay. So maybe we'll get to hear from you a little bit later on. You know, the gentleman's here. The gentleman's raised objections about how it could impact his enjoyment of his home, and do you have any comments to make on that? Yeah. Again, it looks, I don't know, there's the fence that sort of separates it a bit, and when people are sat, it's not as close as what I think it looks from that picture. And again, I understand and appreciate where it's coming from, but again, it's always been a commercial building, so if you move next to a commercial building, there's always that possibility. And people have been sitting out having coffee for the past, since we've had it done. Again, it wouldn't be on a really regular basis that these events would happen. So yeah. Thank you. I'll ask my colleagues, do you have any other follow-up questions? Councillor Isla? Councillor Amen? No. Anyone else? Any questions? Licensing officer? Environmental health? Any questions for the applicant? No. Okay. I'll go over to the objectors. If you do have a question, could you raise your hand, say your name, and then ask your question. But questions rather than comments, please. Okay, so anyone there would like to ask the applicant any questions? Yeah, if I can just start to begin with. Oh, sorry. Yeah, my name's Lodrick Edwin. I'm a resident on Pickford Street. You're talking about the outside and you're saying, can I touch on this? Oh, okay. The fact that she says could impact, or you say could impact the enjoyment. They've built a stage. I'm expecting Shakespeare. They've built a stage up so that they're now looking down on residents. I'm four houses away, bringing the bins in and there's two fellas, torsos upwards. Yes. Yeah. Could you not have done a better job with the actual stage that you've built? Because what you've done, you've elevated people, which makes it even worse for the residents. It's already elevated, so we've just repaved it. It was already like that. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, yeah. It was just with you bringing up the actual outside. Yeah. Just like Mr. Carr, Charles Carr, I live next door to the premises. I'd just like to ask if she realised that it's a conservation area. Did you apply for planning for it to build that monstrosity? We've just paved over it. It's just flags. We've just paved over it. Amy Crosby, number nine, Pitford Street. Obviously, none of the residents are happy about this. Amy's already got a licence to stay open from nine till six o'clock and to me, that's for a coffee shop that should be ample time for baby showers or anything, any other events during the day. We just can't see any reason why. Is it really possible, you know, couldn't you make more use of the hours, Amy, rather than ten till two? Couldn't you do nine till six, ten till six, nine till six? I can with certain things, but if people come and they want a party in the evening, I have to then turn them away if I can't give the council ten days notice and I'm only allowed 15 temporary event notices in a year. So once that's done, that's it. So again, it just, it narrows down, you know, the services I can provide my customers and when you're running a business, you know, you have to think of these other things as well and obviously, I wouldn't want to do it on a, you know, too often basis. You know, we had that conversation on Friday and I don't understand, which is why, you know, I would keep it to a minimum, but it's a business as well. I know the main issue is once, you know, if you do grant a license, alcohol license, it will die with the premises, won't it? You know, it's ongoing, so if Amy got fed up of this venture and wanted to sell, the license will go with the premises, won't it? Am I right? Yeah, you're right. But my husband owns that building and he's got storage space at the back. He's got no intention of selling it. He needs it for his work. Right, I'm going to move over to Environmental Health as a responsible authority, right, to make representations, please. Thanks, Chair. I mean, as I put in as representation, we're just concerned, A, that by licensing the outside, that it will be until 10 o'clock, you know, other venues that we deal with and things like that, and I know the applicant is saying that they'll look to try and keep the noise down and things like that. You know, if you look at the picture, the applicant once again is saying that there's only going to be 10 people seated outside, but realistically in premises like that, you'll get people stood up around those tables, you'll get people around that. You know, there might be 25 people outside that front of that premises, you know, drinking. So, you know, with the best will in the world, even if people are talking at a reasonable level, when they are out, whether they're drinking alcohol or whatever, they do invariably talk over each other and increase the volume, and obviously we've got a residential property adjacent, but obviously other residential properties nearby in the area that potentially could be affected by that. I just don't think that we've been given enough chance to gain enough evidence, even from the times that the business has been allowed to operate, that it won't cause a problem during the warmer weather through the summer. I think if we got to a situation later in the year where we'd not received complaints, and the applicant had been running the business through the summer, with people sat outside having soft drinks and things like that, which they're allowed to do and not causing a noise nuisance, then I think we'd be in a stronger position to support the applicant. But at this time, you know, it was only October when the licence was granted, and we haven't had a warm spell as such, although we are enjoying one thankfully for a few days. I just don't think we've been given enough chance to evidence whether there will be a problem or there won't be. Anything else? If that's it, thank you, Chair. >> Thank you. Can I just clarify something? So the last hearing on the 11th of October where the panel made their decision and we heard representations made, am I right in thinking environmental health at that stage had objections to the licence being granted from 10am to 10pm? We did, as far as I remember, yes. Sorry, I may answer you quickly. We have had temporary events since then where, and as far as I'm aware, the residents may know different, but we certainly had no complaints come from those events. So, you know, once again, that negates our objections to that happening, really, because at the end of the day, the applicant has run events, we've not received complaints regarding noise. So, therefore, you know, we wouldn't want to object against that, you know what I mean? She's shown that in our eyes anyway, that by not receiving complaints, that those events can be run from the internally within the venue as such. Does that answer your question? It does, it does. Thank you very much. I just want that clarifying so that we're all on the same page, that there's a genuine reason why you've gone from objecting now to supporting the variation, because there's evidence in which to support that. Okay, thank you. I'll move to my colleagues. Councillor Isla? Can I just get clarified, please? Temporary event notice, how long does it take to get one, and how much does it cost? >> Yeah, so the cost of a temporary event notice is 21 pound, and it has to be within 10 working days of the event. That's for a normal 10. If it's a late 10, it could be five working days before the event. Okay, yeah, thank you. >> Councillor Emmett? Okay, so the applicant, have you got any questions for environmental health, based on what they've said today? Any of the objectors? Any questions for environmental health, based on what's been said? The lady there at the back? And just identify yourself, please. Julie Woodward, 720 Manchester Road. I understand what you're saying, that nobody complained when they had the temporary events, but because they were just one-offs, and she had the licence, we left it alone. We had a situation with the queens across the road, which I dealt with for approximately five months, where I was ringing environmental health repeatedly, and because they had a licence, I was told I couldn't do anything. The problem we have here is, if the lady gets the licence, and then starts abusing the licence, will environmental health actually do anything? Because they didn't do anything last year. I had to get the council involved and everybody, the police wouldn't even come out. Nobody will come. And if you were saying, well, did anybody complain, who would we complain to? When we had it with the queens, if you went across to there, you were threatened. So people don't, they don't feel happy complaining at anything. We just let things happen. That's why we're doing this now, to say we don't want it to happen. I'm not trying to spoil anybody's business, but if you've got ten days to apply for an event, if somebody wanted a baby shower, they know long before ten days. If they want a wedding, they know before ten days. If they're having an anniversary party, they know before ten days. Just, why would you want to let them do it? It's not a case of why we want to let them do it. We've obviously got to base it on complaints we receive and looking at the wider picture of the business, coming back to your complaints about the queens, and I know it's not particularly relevant, but we do have a service where if you are suffering from noise complaints, you can come to Environmental Health. I can't speak because I wasn't the officer that dealt with the queens, but we can deal with them. We can also, as the Chair knows, look to come back here and review the licence if there's continuous issues regarding noise or antisocial behaviour. So there are things we can do, but we can't do it unless we receive complaints to us. Does that answer your question, sorry? Thank you. Okay, so let's move over to the objectives now. So you have your opportunity to make representations about the application to vary the licence from 10am to 10pm, okay? So shall we start with the gentleman there at the front? Can you just identify yourself with him, please? Yeah, my name's Lodrick Edwin, resident on Pickford Street. My family's lived on Pickford Street for over 40 years, and I think what you have to understand with Pickford Street is that it is young families, and on an evening, it's incredibly quiet. During the day, it can be a bit of a rat run. It is, as I said, very, very quiet. I think if the licence is given, it will impact negatively on residents, and what I would say is that there will be an increase in noise, antisocial behaviour, activity, traffic. Sorry, sorry, I lost my train of thought, and litter as well obviously. Also, parking. It's sometimes difficult to park during the day, and it's been made worse with daytime lessorail. So to extend the hours to cover the evening, when the residents are returning home, Scout Association meetings, carers and the like, all vying for parking spaces, it's going to be difficult and dangerous for residents. Let me just say, I noticed that Amy said that sometimes she had hardly any customers, and the street was chock-a-block. So when she has customers, and it starts getting busy, do we pile them on top of each other? I don't understand how that's going to work. We've already got two pubs, just a short walk away, the Horse and Groom, and the Four Horseshoes, and you've got to ask yourself, in such a small area, do we really need a third late night or late evening drinking house? I'd suggest not. And the other thing is, they are next to the Scout Association, who tend to meet, you know, they have their meetings on an evening, so they are going to be right next to lessorail with people drinking and everything outside. You know, that's probably not a good thing. It's a busy street with kids who like to go up and down the street. Having a little pub, which in effect it is, is probably not a good idea. So in short, I think you should turn down this licence. Okay, thank you. I think it would be convenient if we were to ask questions after each object is spoken. Oh, okay, did I go too fast? Okay, does that work for everybody? Okay, I've got a couple of questions. So we've heard from the applicant, and she talks about the hours that she opens at the moment, so 10 a.m. to 2 p.m. She says that's likely to continue irrespective, well, if the variation is granted, it's likely to continue with certain days, maybe once a month, opening later for events such as venue hire. What's your comment to that? Well, the thing is, you can promise anything, can't you? The last time Amy said there won't be many cars because everybody's going to be turning up on bicycles, you know, that's obviously not happening. I think once she gets the licence, it's alright saying, oh, it's my mum, it's my sister, we're a lovely family and everything, but if it starts getting busy, it'll take advantage, obviously, once they've got the licence. So promising, you know, I have nothing against her or anything, but making promises now, if it starts getting busy and it becomes a bit of a hotspot, I guarantee she'll use it, and there will be more noise, far more than she's anticipating. Thank you. Environmental health has made representations indicating that there's been three events where there's been a tense, temporary events notice events, 18th of November, 6th of April, 15th of June, and based on no complaints being received in respect of those events, that they're supporting the variation inside the premises. Do you have any response to that? No, well, some of the times I wasn't there, so I don't know how it went, you know. You might ask others, and they can comment. Okay. Any questions from my colleagues? Councillor Rylah? Can I just come back one second, please? Yeah. Amy did say that, you know, people would be drinking outside, you know, probably soft drinks and that. As I say, once she gets the licence, there's nothing to stop her going from the soft drinks, forgetting the promise, and alcohol later at night, and all that results in. Thank you. So, just solely going by the temporary stop note, the temporary event notice, what was it like when that was run on an evening? What was the atmosphere, the traffic, the noise, how did that affect you? Yeah, I'm sorry, I can't really answer that, because I wasn't there for a certain period. Okay. I'm not sure. Yeah, I'm a little distance away, but I'm not sure. Okay, thank you very much. The lady next to you, are you making representations? Yeah, is it all right if Charlie speaks first, please, from number five, I think it's more important, thank you. Okay. Yes, I live in the property adjacent to Lasswell, and since it's been opened, I haven't put any complaints in, I've had to put up with whatever was going on, but there's been very, very light patronage to the cafe, I've never seen more than three or four people in, and as for the temporary events notices, like on the 15th of June, it was a total flop, it was raining, there was nobody there, so it cannot be judged. I can't understand why we're back here, making the same complaints, and we've got the same fears about children, nuisance, and everything, and the premises aren't being opened, it's being opened from ten in the morning till two in the afternoon, four hours, which is the quietest part of the day, there's very little patronage, and the weather does come, 90 per cent, they come in vehicles, and that's when we get the double parking, blah, blah, blah, and if that's happening later on in rush hour, and later on in the evening, when people come back home from work and everything, it's just going to get worse and worse, the congestion, like I said, four hours in the afternoon is bad enough, I've noticed an increase myself, and it's quite economical with truth, anyway, about these events I mentioned. If you look at her Facebook page, you can see it on there, can't wait for the summer, hashtag beer garden, hashtag paseko, hashtag gin, advertising, loud music over when she finished the abomination that she's put up there, the raised platform which looks down on my garden, I open my front door, there's people sat there three foot away eating breakfast, blah, blah, I can't open my windows now at the front because I can just hear people even now just having breakfast and coffees, conversation, can't open my windows, I look out my window, I can see people sat there, so I'm sure they can see into my lounge as well, I've no privacy at all. And as I was saying, the events have just been non-starters, there's been no patronage, and I've never seen 31 people in your shop, never, never. As for the people on bicycles, I noticed a few days ago, I think there were ladies came on bicycles, they didn't know where to put their bicycles, so where did they park them? Straight across, outside my garage, private property, all propped up outside the garage, I'm sure you noticed that. Sorry, I didn't realise it belonged to you, I just thought it was a bit weird, because that's what I was actually told. Sorry, this is her attitude, you know what I mean, I didn't realise it belonged to you, she doesn't care who it belonged to, it's private property, they've got all these bicycles parked outside my garage. Another thing, the rules, like I say, she doesn't look into things, it's a conservation area, she must have planning permission to do all the alterations at the front there, she hasn't. I've put an objection in, planning and investigating it. Another thing is her commercial premises, she's supposed to have a commercial waste bin for food etc, she doesn't have that, she just uses a normal domestic bin which is not allowed, and if that's false, she throws it in her husband's hope and skip, that's at the rear, which has started to attract vermin, she just doesn't apply anything to rules, she just doesn't take into, you're not interested in rules or regulations, this is why I don't communicate with her. And as I say, at the hours that she's opened, I've no objection to the cafe, I have an objection to the outside of it now actually, now I'm just having coffees and dessert, because I can't open my windows at the front anymore. It is nuisance to me, it's nuisance, it's affecting my quality of life. All the other fears were all put down before in the original application for a licence, but they all still apply. I don't remember because, as I say, on the hours that she's opened, it hasn't affected her as that great, except there has been an increase in parking during the quiet part of the day. I think that's... Okay, thank you. So we'll move over to questions. So you mentioned the 15th of June, when there were the 10s, were you around on the 18th of November and the 6th of April? Can you remember those? I can't remember them, but if I was, she had no customers, hardly. That's all I can say. There's never been anybody outside, obviously that was in the wintertime anyway. Okay, so on the back of that then, what about the comments that were made by Environmental Health? Does Environmental Health believe that they don't object to inside increasing the licence? As I say, nobody's complained, you see, because on an evening on these 10s that she's had, there's been nobody in to make the noise, so you can't complain about something if it's not there. And my fear is obviously, especially if she gets this outdoor licence, alcohol, they might as well just be in my front garden because we're talking feet away from my front door. Okay, I'll turn to my colleagues and see if you have any questions. Sorry, and as for commercial premises, it's never been a pub. I understand. Hairdressers and a tool hire shop. Can I ask you, in terms of being a nuisance, the customers being a nuisance, have you noticed a big difference if the customers are outside compared to inside, maybe in terms of noise? Yes. Since she's open, I don't know if you've got a picture of what it was like before, which was not fit for anybody to sit outside, so there never been anybody having coffee or anything outside. But like I said, she's gone up ahead with this development without getting planning permission, it's a conservation area, and I've got her complaining about that, they've investigated it. And what she's done, she's raised the front two feet, got the three benches and tables set up, so when people are sat down, they're actually up here, you see? They can see straight into my house, straight into my garden, and they're at the same level as me coming out of the house where they're sat now. I understand what you're saying. Like I say, if I open my windows at the front eventually, especially in the summer now, even if they're just sat there having coffee, they might as well be sat in my garden having coffee, because they can hear every word they say. If everything took place inside, would you still have an objection, or would you be okay with that? Pardon? If everything took place inside, so rather than outside on the passenger side? Inside, the hours that she's doing, I've no problem with. I've had no problem. Would you have a problem if there were later hours? Later hours, drinking alcohol. We all know what happens. I'm the same, everybody gets loud and has a laugh and wah, wah, wah. Thank you. Like I say, and as for Amy, she's economical with the truth of what kind of event she wants. You'll have to look on her Facebook page. We will do. Can I just ask some clarity, because my colleagues raised a really good question there. There's issues with drinking outside, drinking coffee, but the license is only for inside. In terms of licensable activities, it doesn't affect the outside, is that correct? No, not for drinking. Not for drinking coffee. Can I mention something as well? A few times it's been mentioned about parking, but that doesn't fall under the licenseable activity. That's why I mentioned that. Thank you. So there isn't much we can do about people drinking coffee outside. We can't influence that. Councillor Amen. Thank you, Chair. Can I just ask, and just give me an approximation, I don't need it in detail, but how long have you lived at this address? I think it's 25 years. When you did live there, what was the premises used for at the time? At the time I moved in, it was a two-layer shop, which closed, then it became a hairdresser's, then it became a secondhand dealer's shop. So the level of noise would be significant? Minimal. I'd never any need to complain at all. And then the other question was the vermin and the nuisance. Has it been reported to Environmental Health? I have reported to Environmental Health. It's very hard to get in touch with Environmental Health. I've tried online and filled it in, and still I've got a reply back. Thank you. Thank you. Any other objectives? My two neighbours here, they've very well covered all that needs to be said. But one thing that all of us were in agreement with, when this new application was stuck on the shutters and we were back to square one fighting this, last time the owner at this meeting stood up and apologised for not telling the residents of what she intended to do with the premises. With hindsight, she said that she should have informed us. This new one, she's done exactly the same again. This high-handed attitude we found most upsetting. You would think, you know, once you've had your finger smacked once and she apologised for it, you know, you would learn from that. But many of us here, I mean 30, 40 odd years we've lived here, but no consideration to the neighbours. Also, on the outside, I'm not going to talk about it being in a conservation area. But what I would say is, it looks as though, with, I don't know if you can see them, but there are three pillars up there and that looks as though it could be getting, they don't seem to be serving any useful purpose. We are wondering if this is granted, that a canopy could be put over, you know, making it more of a permanent structure. Yeah, right, also, right, on the drinks, right. Well, because of, you know, all of us here, the drinks, anti-social, the noise, the litter, the car doors banging at night, it's just something that we are just not used to living. I mean, we're all neighbours and we look out for each other and we care for each other. With the threat of all the noise, litter, car doors banging, drinking outside, litter, it's just a worry. And as you can, yeah, and as you can see, I'm no spring chicken, none of us are spring chickens. And really, when we've lived here for such a long, long time, to have this extra stress put on us in what are troubled times anywhere around the world, it's just not fair. Yeah, so I'm going to ask you the same questions that I asked the gentleman at the front there, or comments really, that the applicant has been opening from 10am to 2pm. So I don't think there's any, I don't know about any cars slamming doors and activities at night. So I think it's important to make that distinction. Yeah, it is. Yeah. But also, what the applicant is recommending is that she keeps the opening hours the same. But once a month or so, then she may hire out the event for various things. So do you have a comment on that? Do you still have an objection to that? Well, it depends what sort of thing's going to happen. I mean, as Mr Carr has said, the events that she put on were a dismal flop, but Facebook is completely different to reality. And we don't really know what to believe. Is it going to be a big, fat, wild fireworks bonanza success? Or is it going to be like the last ones have been a damp scrub? It's uncertainty, you know, trying to work out the uncertainty of an additional license. It's just heartbreaking. Thank you. Councillor Rylah, any questions? No, thank you. Councillor Simon? I'm good, thank you. Okay, any more? Any questions from anyone on this side? No. Okay. You'll have an opportunity, I should say, applicant to respond to what's been said. But you can ask questions as well, if you have any. No? No, this stage, okay. So any other representations from objectors? Okay, so everyone happy with what's been said so far? Okay. So I'll move over to the applicant then. So you've heard what's been said. There's been a number of representations about a variety of things, a number of concerns that the residents have about what might happen if the variation is granted. Are you able to comment or make representations on those points? Yeah, what I said was going to happen last time, I think, has happened and it will just continue to be the same. There's nothing going to change really. I didn't approach some of the residents because they're not approachable. And there wasn't really anything, in my opinion, new to report, nothing was going to change, just carrying on doing what I have been doing. And I also said last time, you know, if there was any issues, then they can come and speak to me. And I have not had anybody approach me either. So I feel like communication works both ways. So if I haven't heard anything, I didn't think that there was an issue. And in terms of the Scout Hut next door, when we did the event last Saturday, which wasn't a flop at all, we had quite a few people in there. And especially when we had the one prior to that, we had a pizza oven outside. And it wasn't people just coming in the shop. We had loads of residents come in on the street, they'd get a pizza, and they took it away as well. So I thought that was really nice, because it was like bringing the community together. They weren't just coming in for a drink, they were using the pizza oven and taking it away. But the one on Saturday, the Scouts were out and about with their leaders. And they were around the front, they were not phased, they didn't see that there was a there was an issue. And in terms of noise, they were making a lot more noise than we were not that I was bothered, obviously. But they were, in my opinion, more of a nuisance than we were. So I don't know, I just think it feels like it's been a little bit blown out of proportion as to what's going to happen when it's not how it's going to be. Okay, sorry. Unfortunately, you can't come back. You can't respond. You've had your opportunity. It wouldn't be fair. If I allow that, then other people can do the same thing. So we've come to the end. Okay, we've had representations made. We're at the stage now where we can sum up. So you'll have your chance to make your comment, if that's what you want to do. So I'm going to go around the room for every person to respond and sum up. So I'll start with the Licensing Officer, please. Thank you, Chair. Licensing have received an application on the 30th of April, 2024, full last surreal. They've applied for sales of alcohol Monday to Sunday, 10am till 10pm. In total, 14 objections were received related to the prevention of crime disorder, public safety, the prevention of public nuisance, and the protection of children from harm. The premise has a licence which was granted in October 2023. This application went to a hearing and the panel decided to reduce the sale of hours from 10pm till 6pm, and a condition was added that no alcohol is to be taken or consumed outside. Since the licence was granted, the applicant has applied for free temporary events. Licensing did receive an email relating to the last temporary event regarding the use of the patio area at the front of the premise. No other complaints have been received about the premise. When determining the application, members having had regard to the representations may take such steps as they're considered appropriate for the promotion of the licensing of activities. These steps are so you can grant the application with appropriate conditions, exclude from the scope of the licence any of the licenceable activities which relate to this application or reject the application. Thank you. >> I think my colleague has a question. It's something I already asked, but I'm just going to go back to it, really, because I want some clarity. So on page 5 it says the applicant has applied for full variation to increase the hours of sale of alcohol from 10am to 10pm every day and they want to remove the conditions attached to the previous hearing. Now, one of those conditions is the panel recommended that music be inaudible to residents. How does that look if that's removed? I believe it's not stated. They'll probably keep that. Just give me a second. Yeah, it's not been applied to be removed, so I think it will remain as part of the licence. It's more of an ask than anything else. You can't enforce anything. So there is some provision around music being played. And if it's before 11pm, we can't influence that. Deregulation Act, thank you. And I think it was something that was agreed. I think everyone was in agreement. The applicant was in agreement with that condition. Can I just ask the applicant, are they wanting to remove that? For the music. I think I was told last time that you don't actually need a licence for the music. So also just to remove it because it's pointless being there. Yeah, we can do. All right. So moving over to Ms Ken Worthy. Would you like to sum up? Sum up. Yeah, nothing will change with our normal hours. We will remain the same. If it gets busier, then I might reassess my hours, but it wouldn't be all day, 3 o'clock. I've had a few customers that are just requesting maybe 9 till 3, but any longer than that is just not feasible for me. Coming into it, I always just wanted to be part of the community, you know, and never wanted to upset people. Yeah. I just would like to come to, if we can come to some sort of compromise, then again, I'm happy to do so. It's just, you know, when it's your business at the end of the day, you've also got to think about that. So yeah. I don't know what to say. Thank you. I know you've just summed up, but I want to explore that a little bit more. Compromise. What would be the compromise? What would you sort of offer today? I mean, I'd compromise the outside for drinking if we could have it till the 2 o'clock, you know, just for when we're actually opening, 10 till 2, and then people can come and at least enjoy a glass of wine with their lunch. What about inside? >> Inside, just again, for flexibility, if I can have it 9 till -- 10 till 10, then it just -- it does -- it makes things a lot easier and more clean cut. >> Okay. Thank you. Moving over to environmental health. >> Thanks, Chair. Just coming to that compromise, I mean to say I think we -- if that was a condition for alcohol to be allowed up until 2 p.m., then I think we would support that, to be fair. Yeah. Outside, yeah. But only up until -- you know what I mean, only up until then. And obviously we wouldn't want anybody outside after 6 p.m. with soft drinks still or whatever. Thanks, Chair. Thank you. I think I've thrown a bit of a curve ball in there, haven't I? Sorry everybody. At least it's something we can consider. It's something else that's on the table that we could consider, possibly. Okay. So moving over to the objectives very quickly. Just sum up very, very quickly, if you can, within 20 seconds. No, I am against it. There's just one observation, if I can just throw that in. Amy said that the scouts came hanging around the tables and it was all great fun. Obviously there was no alcohol outside. It might be a different matter when there is. And let me just stress one thing. Pickford Street on an evening is incredibly quiet. I don't know when you did your visit, but you should have gone at 8 p.m. or 7 p.m. or something like that and you would have seen a different Pickford Street to during the day. Okay. Thank you. Hi, Debbie Crosby. Amy, I just want to say it's nothing personal. And as a cafe, I would support you in that. But it's just the alcohol licence that, well, I personally am dead against. It is a residential area, as we all know, and a conservationist area. And it's just not the right place for alcohol premises. Plus, it will bring our property down in value or wants to live next door to a pub. And anybody in this room, if you look at that picture, would you want to live next door to that premises? Thank you. Thank you. Just to confirm that devaluation of properties is a licensing consideration. But I do understand what you're saying. At the back there. Could I just clarify the inaudible to residents part of the conditions? Does that stay? We do need to consider that. But there are some caveats to that. That's all I can really say about that. Our hands are tied to a large extent. It remains. Because it was a bit confusing as to whether she has to remove it anyway. Yeah. So, I mean, my colleagues can explain it a lot more better than I can. But my understanding is because of the deregulation act, we cannot control music being played outside up to 11 p.m. So you're referring to music or noise people speaking outside, noise outside? Well, in the original conditions, it was supposed to be even from inside the building, noise was supposed to be inaudible to residents. >> So noise is in people talking. Well, predominantly I'm talking about music, loud music. Can I just clarify, Chair? The condition that was added at the previous hearing was the panel recommended that music be inaudible to residents. But the request today, so the application is a variation to the existing with relation to the hours and I believe the removal of just one of the conditions that was existing following the hearing last time. Does that help? >> So the music one will stay? So what my colleague is saying is that the only issue we're considering today is in respect of variation of the licence sale of alcohol on premises 10 a.m. to 10 p.m. That's why we're here, to consider that. >> Nothing else changes? Yes. >> Thank you. Just to clarify, the application is to vary the hours, the hours of sale of alcohol and there was a request to remove the condition which said that they weren't to use the front door/outdoor area. So they're the only two considerations. So no other existing conditions will be removed. >> Okay. Summing up there at the end, at the back? The lady there in the middle at the back, you spoke, didn't you? I'm sorry, I was just a bit confused with the music and outside and inside and outside. Is it right that as it stands, no music can be played outside? I'm a bit confused with it. >> It doesn't state on the conditions inside or outside? It doesn't state on the conditions that were put on the licence last time, whether it relates to inside or outside? >> I'll clarify. There's no condition that states there shouldn't be any music played indoors or outdoors. So within the licenceable area, so it's where the licence covers which is both indoors and outdoors I believe on this application, in accordance with the Deregulation Act, any premises that does have an alcohol licence is permitted to have music between the hours of 8am and 11pm without the requirement for a licence. >> Inside and outside? In the area of the licence, yeah. >> So it could sound music at itself at 11pm? 11pm, yes, and that is not something that the licensing authority can do anything about because the law says so. >> Okay. Anyone else? The gentleman there at the back with the blue shirt. You spoke earlier on, didn't you? The blue T-shirt, okay. All right. So thank you, everyone, for making representations. We now need an opportunity to consider what we've heard and to consider the application that's been presented and to decide what we want to do about the application. So can everybody take a step outside so that we can consider what we're going to do? Thank you. [ Applause ] Thank you. [ Applause ] Thank you. [ Applause ] Thank you. [ Applause ] Thank you. [ Applause ] Thank you. [ Applause ] Thank you. [ Applause ] Thank you. [ Applause ] Thank you. [ Applause ] Thank you. [ Applause ] Thank you. [ Applause ] Thank you. [ Applause ] Thank you. [ Applause ] Thank you. [ Applause ] Thank you. 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Summary
The Licensing Panel of Kirklees Council convened to discuss an application for the full variation of the premises licence for Le Sorelle, located at 5 Pickford Street, Millsbridge, Huddersfield. The panel heard from the applicant, Amy Lambert, and several objectors, including local residents and representatives from Environmental Health. The main points of contention were the proposed extension of alcohol sale hours and the removal of conditions restricting outdoor alcohol consumption.
Application for Full Variation of Le Sorelle Licence
The primary agenda item was the application for the full variation of the premises licence for Le Sorelle, a café located at 5 Pickford Street, Millsbridge, Huddersfield. The applicant, Amy Lambert, sought to extend the hours for the sale of alcohol from 10 a.m. to 10 p.m. daily and to remove conditions that prohibited outdoor alcohol consumption.
Applicant's Arguments
Amy Lambert argued that the extended hours would provide flexibility for hosting events such as baby showers and parties, which often come with short notice. She noted that the current restriction to indoor alcohol consumption was limiting her business's potential, especially during good weather when patrons prefer to sit outside. Lambert emphasized that her clientele is generally well-behaved and that the business has not received any complaints during its temporary events.
Objectors' Concerns
Local residents, including Charles Carr and Lodrick Edwin, voiced strong objections to the application. They raised concerns about increased noise, parking issues, and the potential for anti-social behavior. Carr, who lives adjacent to the café, highlighted that the outdoor seating area overlooks his property, affecting his privacy and quality of life. He also mentioned that the café is located in a conservation area and questioned whether proper planning permissions had been obtained for recent modifications.
Environmental Health's Position
Kevin Allen from Kirklees Environmental Health initially objected to the outdoor alcohol consumption but later suggested a compromise. He proposed allowing outdoor alcohol consumption only until 2 p.m. to mitigate potential noise issues in the evening. Allen noted that no complaints had been received during the café's temporary events, which supported the argument for extending indoor alcohol sale hours.
Panel's Deliberation
The panel considered the various representations and the potential impact on the community. They discussed the possibility of a compromise, such as limiting outdoor alcohol consumption to earlier hours while allowing extended indoor hours. The panel also took into account the café's location in a residential and conservation area, which added complexity to the decision.
For further details, you can refer to the Agenda frontsheet and the Public reports pack.
Attendees
Meeting Documents
Agenda