Transcript

And we're about to start the meeting, ladies and gentlemen. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to this meeting of Boston Borough Council's Overview and Scrutiny Committee. I'm Paul Gleeson, and I'm chairing the committee this evening, and with me is Councillor Neill Drayton, my vice chairman. Before I move to the preliminary items of this evening's agenda, I need to run through the housekeeping details. I would like to remind everyone in attendance this evening that this meeting is being streamed live on YouTube. Would persons addressing the meeting, please do so through their microphone system all the time. This meeting is being recorded. Please ensure that microphones are turned off after speaking. There's a member of the public. Nope. We can now move on. Thank you. The preliminaries, apologies for absence. Thank you, Chair. There are two apologies from councillors, Stuart Evans and David Milton. Thank you. Declarations of interest, does any member have any to declare any interest in respect of any items on the agenda? Do I have permission to sign the minutes of the Overview and Scrutiny Committee meeting held on the 29th of May, 2025? Are there any questions from members of the public who received two clear working days prior to this meeting? There are none for this meeting. Thank you. That concludes the preliminary items. We now move to part two of the agenda. There has been a slight change. We've actually changed the order we're hearing the items. So we're going to hear item two first and then we'll hear item one. So the first item is on pages 15 to 18 of your agenda. It's the plan for neighbourhoods and it's being presented this evening by Pranali Panik, our director of economic development. Welcome to the meeting. Thank you, Chair. I think in your packet you've got this briefing note on plan for neighbourhoods. I must admit things are moving fast and the timetable has changed slightly since the note was published. So I will brief you on that update as well. But this is a really positive good kind of good news story for Boston that we have. We are one of the 75 towns in the country to have received this plan for neighbourhood funding, which means the Boston is to receive 20 million pounds over next 10 years. About 2 million pounds per year over 10 years program. 75% of it is capital funding and 25% is revenue. But all this is against a successful submission of a deliverable aspirational vision for 10 years and a four years investment plan. One thing very clear in government guidance is that the plan is not prepared by the council. It's prepared by the whole of Boston's communities, particularly the Boston town board or the Boston neighbourhood board leading that community engagement and all parts of community, whether it's the residents, businesses, community organizations, visitors, all alike will have the opportunity to engage. Engage and influence the plan and the projects coming forward. That work partly has already started and partly is being led by the town board already and a lot more needs to be done. The note suggests that we have until early next year for submission, which has now changed. It's by end of November. We have to submit the plan, which is obviously quite tight timescale. Still quite significant amount of time to talk to people and engage in terms of understanding priorities about placing people. Now, this is not the first time we will be talking to people. As you know, the plan was due for submission last year in August. So we have been talking to communities in many ways, but it's not just this piece of work. We have done consultation on Boston plan earlier in the year. We are doing consultation on various events and projects. The other funded projects like the Towns Fund and the Leveling of Partnership and the Arts Council funding. All those projects have an element of consultation also involved. And our partners are doing a few engagement activities, including the community voluntary organizations. The various partners like the Sturm, the Guildhall, the Short Friars, lots of different elements of engagement going on. And the idea is that we will be collecting all that information that we hear from various aspects of our community's lives and what is important to them. And that will feed into the plan while we will be submitting the plan in November. That's not again the end of it because government is very much alive to the fact that things will keep on changing. So the plan will need to be kept refreshed and reviewed on annual basis. And the council as well as partners will have the opportunity to keep reshaping it as we go along. But it provides a framework. What we need to submit right now is a framework, a kind of a guidance as to what we all think Boston needs to develop over 10 years. So it's a significant amount of work to be done. We have started engagement. We have started sourcing our teams accordingly. But the town board is taking a really good lead with all different partners sitting around the table, playing a really good ambissadorial role and going out in the communities within their networks, taking information out as well as bringing information back in to help us prepare the plan. So that's the main element of the report. The key bit the council, the cabinet will be approving at the 9th of July meeting is the use of capacity fund. So we have been given £450,000 over the last two financial years. And that is one to prepare, to help us prepare the plans, to develop projects, to look at visibility and get it costed so that we can add it in the investment plan. But a huge element of it is about engagement with communities. So there are a fair few different activities already planned. The town board have kind of approved in principle spend against a fair few different activities. Details are subject to change as we go along. But the principle remains the same that we have this funding available to be for spending in Boston for engagement activities, some quick wins and mainly for the preparation and submission of the plan. So I think that's about it. Thank you. Are there any questions, Councillor Alison Osting? It's not a question. I got most of what you said. Could you actually speak, bring your microphone much closer to you for those of us who are audibly challenged? Thank you. Councillor Mike Gilbert. Yeah, just a few observations really. This is presumably the sort of the levelling up money as was under the last administration or part of the levelling up money. No, it's not. Something completely different, is it? OK. All right. But I mean, the scope of it sounds quite exciting in principle. And I'm quite excited about the fact that we have it over such an extended period of time. I'm a little bit hesitant about town board on the basis that my experience of the town board is they tend to sort of have members of the town board who identify projects which are of benefit to the members of the town board and don't necessarily benefit the town. And one of the things that I'd like to see or I'd like to maybe have some kind of council sign off if at all possible, although it may not be possible, is to see what the projects are that are being proposed and recommended in advance of them. And then to have some sense of how the supply of the money for these projects is going to drive demand in the town centre to drive spending power, because fundamentally the main problem with small towns like Boston is the lack of spending power in people's pockets. So these projects are all well and good, you know, spending two, three million pounds or whatever on something, some major project and development is great. But if it doesn't actually drive the economy by bringing spending power into the town, then essentially you've spent three million pounds on someone's vanity project and it hasn't actually benefited any members of the public. So I'm concerned about that and I'd like to be assured that, you know, that the public and maybe as councillors, we have some input into the kind of projects that are taken forward. My other point is this, the town does look very dilapidated. A lot of the dilapidation is in the private sector, the private rented sector. Will some of the 25% revenue spend be spent on employing officers who can hold landlords to account in terms of the appearance of the properties that they've got in some of our more significant streets in Boston? Because a lot of properties just let the town down very, very badly and it's not our responsibility to pay for the upkeep or the improvement of those properties, but something needs to be done about them. Yeah, thank you for your points there, Councillor Gilbert. So I didn't write them down, but I'll try to remember them all. So first and foremost, I do agree with some of what you said about the makeup of the town board and the apparent placement of projects that seem to build empires and, you know, cherry pick projects that would favour some and not all. The refreshing thing about this updated board is that we're in a transition phase at the moment, so we very much have to move the board on. The membership of the board has to be moved on so that it is much more reflective of our local community. And the government have made it very clear that they expect local people to have a much stronger voice in the town board and not only that, in the projects that evolve from the town board. So at the moment, the board is in a transition stage and the chair is very clear on, I think, the destination she wants to get to, but that's going to take time. So you will appreciate, I'm sure that there was a lot of organisational knowledge and wisdom within the membership of the board. It would have been wrong just to clear people out that people still have value to add. So the government are very clear on that. They're very clear on the fact that the consultation should actually be, and I'm really quite not worried about this, but I'm concerned that we get it right. The government are clear that any engagement and consultation should actually be led by local people. And now on behalf of the town board, the vice chair, Claire Foster, went to a briefing in Westminster last week, last Tuesday. She attended because neither the chair nor myself could attend that day. And my understanding is that Claire is bringing back lots of good exemplars of how other communities or community groups rather have led their consultation and engagement process. I'm really keen to see how that will work and I'm really keen to replicate good practice. So ultimately, if we get those bits right, if we get the membership of the board right, b if we get the engagement and the consultation right and it's driven by local people and we respond to the needs of local people, then out of that will evolve the projects that the town board then decides to fund. And there are no projects at the moment. It's a blank sheet of paper. All Pranali's talked about tonight is the capacity funding. So all of you will have a voice and I will commit to bringing a regular report back to your scrutiny committee to ensure you have a voice. But it would be a brilliant idea if you all used your community networks. For example, I know you're involved with various community groups. I know Councillor Staples is involved with perhaps a completely different type of community group. Councillor Marsden's got her community tentacles. So all of you have a role to play in this and encouraging all the people that you connect with to get involved in the engagement and consultation. And then that will drive whatever projects are funded. Does that help? Yeah. Very much. That's a very comprehensive answer. Thank you. Yeah. Councillor Danny and then Councillor Woodley, if you'd like to come to the table. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I mean, the report is quite good and it's good to look at it. I'm very pleased that Boston will get probably 20 million in 10 years time, which is 2 million a year. There's only two things I want to touch on. The first thing is, do we have enough time to have our plans ready? Because as I heard, we have to be ready by the end of November this year to submit our plans. That's one thing. And our probably life on this council could be two years to three years. So what will happen after that? That's probably something that I would like to know. And the second thing, we don't mention anything in neighbours or neighbourhoods about education. And I think education is a key to integration and building bridges with people. And I think that could be one of the main parts we should focus on as well. And then there is thriving places, which is high quality infrastructure. That's probably is the task of the county council, the infrastructure. However, we can probably participate in improving our, you know, infrastructure by probably giving ideas. And as Councillor Dorian stated, our leader, that we should all participate and probably put pressure on probably the county more and see where we can get. And the last thing I would like to mention is if we need. If we need. It's a sort of probably a mad idea from me, but it's not. If we want to bring more tourists to the town and make the town centre drive, because at the moment things are shifting from the town centre to the bridge. To the chain bridge area, a lot of people are there and there will be M&S. I think the project all they want to move there. So the things are shifting. If we can probably come with some ideas to build some. Memorial things in the town centre like pump square probably have probably small fountain, which is I've been. Talking about it since 2016 or 17. Nobody want to listen. They say it's a good area. And I think the previous CEO, Phil Drury, has accepted and said it's good, but then it didn't go through. So some things like that small in small places like Warm Gate create again something because it doesn't cost much money to have a little study or a little fountain or something, you know, like what you have front of your your house. Lina, something switches will draw people to us and come to visit us by coming here. They will spend the money here and it should be something we can think about. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank you chair. Thank you for your comments, councillor Danny. You're right to be concerned about the timing because we're all really concerned about the timing. And, you know, but the reputation and the good name of this council's on the line. And so we will move mountains to make sure that we respond by the deadline the government has set. I didn't hear your second point about infrastructure, but so I'll come back to that. I've got it. Yeah, I've got education. Yeah, I've got education. Yeah, yeah. So that no projects have been discussed or decided upon. So it would be you would have as much opportunity as anyone else to put forward your ideas for education. So that's not lost. You mentioned Cambridge and Marks and Spencer's putting in a planning application for their store. And you're absolutely right on that. And I think that there are lots of residents who are really, really keen on that prospect. But I would I would temper your concern with a reminder that we've got Rosegarth Square in development. It's it's coming along in a very timely manner and will produce fantastic new buildings and public realm that our local residents and our visitors will be very proud of. To your point about attracting people into the town centre, we're working really hard as an administration on events, on cleaning the marketplace, on making it look beautiful through the planters and the hanging baskets, the purchase of new street cleaning machines to new machines. So all that what's going on along with the market, which is everybody saying is looking fantastic and this wonderful weather is helping that and cheer everybody up. I do take your point about Pump Square, Councillor Danny. Residents have approached me about the potential for doing some kind of flea market or artist market in Pump Square. And I think that's a lovely little venue. We've actually had an offer from one of the premise owners down there to open up his building for use for toilet use, perhaps doing snacks and things. So that's on the back burner, so please be rest assured that we're not on the back burner now. It's coming forward and I've asked Councillor Broughton to take that forward. Thank you, Chair. Councillor Stephen Woodliffe, would you like to come and hear this? That's right for a minute. Well, my question is, is there any inflation proofing involved in this money? Because obviously it's £20 million over 10 years. That's £2 million a year at the present minute. If inflation takes off, as I think it might do, there has to be some inflation mechanism to uprate that £2 million. So we're getting £2 million value out of that money all the way through. Otherwise, you know, in 10 years, I don't really like to decide in 10 years, you know, in 10 years time, what £2 million is going to be worth? Probably not very much. I think we're heading for another bout of inflation. So I'm a bit nervous about that, really. The question is, is there any, you know, anti-inflation aspect built into this programme? Or are we stuck with £2 million a year for eternity? Sorry, thank you. Thank you, Chair. Yeah, thank you for your question, Councillor Woodliffe. I think what the idea is, is rather that the £2 million a year isn't just that we all turn up, think of projects and say, all right, you can have £500,000, you can have £200,000, you can have £50,000. A big part of this initiative is that we unlock some private sector investment in the town. And I think if we come at the end of 10 years and we haven't managed to do that, Mr Chair, we'll have failed. You know, the government are very clear that they see this very much as a public private sector initiative. And they want us to be creative and imaginative and perhaps get into partnerships that we haven't previously got into. Because, you know, historically, local government aren't brilliant at working with the private sector and unlocking that funding. So we're very keen to do that. And that's how we would get more bang for our buck rather than it just be just some sort of inflation busting measure within the budget. Councillor Woodliffe. Thank you, Sharon. Thank you, Lee. Yes, that's a very, very good important point. However, money is money, isn't it? And the value that we do and if we have plans to do whatever it is in the future, may not be spending very much, but later on, if inflation takes off, it's going to really kill this. That's the point. So I think we need to put pressure on government to put in some form of inflation proofing so that the £2 million every year that we get keeps pace with the value of the money so that we can still do things with it. In the knowledge that the money we have will meet the demands of the time, because obviously building or whatever costs will rise. So we need to have something in there which will protect us and protect this town against inflation. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for allowing me to speak. I'll return to my seat. Councillor Hayward. Can I come back to you? Yes, please. Thank you, Councillor Woodliffe. What I am willing to do, and I don't think I'll be successful. I don't normally start the pessimists, but I am willing to write to the Minister and ask him if he would consider your proposal. And I'm more than happy to credit you with the idea. You can take all the credit as far as I'm concerned. Thank you. Councillor Isard. Thank you, Chair. Councillor Andorian has already answered some of the questions in the first reply. But she mentioned that the town board is going through change. This is a very short period we've got between June and November. So can we have confirmation of when the town board will be finalised? All the members will be finalised. And it says that basically we're going out now from June for public consultation on the first draft of this money. So we need to start seeing that on social media so that we can share it with our community groups in that sense. And the only other thing on the timescales is somewhere after consultation in October and final draft consideration by the board, whether it could, as you might mention, come back to scrutiny so that we can see it before it goes to cancel. Those are the three questions. Thank you, Chair. Yeah, thank you, Councillor Isard. So on your first point, my understanding is that the final board makeup will be back end of this year, the beginning of next year. And it may well then in that in and of itself won't be the end. That there will be new projects come forward. There will be other people identified that have a role to play within the board. But the interim board at the moment, the transitional board, if you like, are very committed and very hard working. And it's a pleasure to work alongside them. As soon as the consultation is ready in any sort of decent shape or form, we'll make sure that everybody's aware of that and it's shared with you. That's no problem. And the and what you're asking for is that the the final plan comes back to you before it goes to government. Is that what you're asking? Basically, if you look at the time scales on page 17, so we get consultation October 2025. And then final draft for consideration by the board in December 25. Well, obviously, that's November 25 now. And I was just wondering whether between those two it could come back for this scrutiny group to have a look at it as well before that point. I'm not sure whether we can, but it's just something I can request. And the other thing I've just remembered, sorry, the term board meetings can public attend if not speak. Thank you, Chair. So if the if the timescale allows and you because you haven't got all your scrutiny meetings listed, I noticed, you've only got up till next month, I think. So if that that if there's a scrutiny board during, say, October, then I would I would think it's absolutely fine that the draft plan comes before you. And I know public members of the public cannot attend town board. So we the town board was set up years ago and government were very prescriptive. This latest government has been less prescriptive, but still issued guidance for how the board should be made up. But members of the public cannot attend. And that was one of their rules. Thank you for clarification. But I'm happy to share any information that I am able if members wish to speak with me. Thank you, Chair. Thank you. Councillor Elbury. Close enough. I just wondered, Chair, Councillor Dorian, what format will the consultation take? Is it written questions or is it carte blanche? And also will the parish councils be involved because they are, you know, the voice of the wards and it's my ward members and participants that come into town. And many of them tell me, oh, we don't go to Boston anymore. It's not worth us going. We'll go to Lincoln or Swalding. So just wondered. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. Through you. Yes, Councillor Elbury. Parish councils would be an integral part of any consultation and engagement process. They are really close to their residents and their communities. The form that the actual consultation will take is still not decided. We only started discussing it last week with this latest timetable thrust upon us. And there are some interesting ideas around how we move this forward. It would be wrong me to share that now because they've not been fleshed out. It's not been decided by the board. But I can absolutely guarantee that you will all be involved in some way or another. But yes, your parish councils are very important in this. And sorry to reply. Would it be possible for us to have maybe ward meetings as councillors to invite our ward members to come and speak to us directly about what they'd like to see in Boston? And then feedback like, what are they called? Surgery. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, I think that's an amazing idea. I would absolutely love that. And if available, I'll come along and assist. But, you know, that's exactly the type of engagement that a good councillor gets involved in, Suzanne. So well done. Yeah, that's exactly the thing to do. Councillor Danny and Councillor Martin. Yeah. Chairman, just picked one of the leader, Madam Leader, when she spoke. Do we have any mechanism to secure and ensure that this plan and this funding will be going for the next 10 years? Because you stated that we don't know what the future is bringing to us. So how can we secure that? That's one of the things. The second thing for us as a councillor, probably as an idea, if we can have a marquee at the at the market on Wednesday and Saturday, we can go and stand there and talk to people face to face. And I think it will be easier for us instead of organising different places. Thank you. Thank you, Chair, to you. Yeah, absolutely. There is a stall there for people to use, community groups and charities to use free of charge. As to the security of the funding, I don't mind sharing with you that after the general election in 2024, this announcement had already been made by the previous Conservative government. And a lot of us were on tenterhooks for several months worrying that we were going to lose all of the 20 million. That, you know, why would Labour come in and support a Conservative initiative? However, they did. They got behind it. They have changed the name of it. They want a neighbourhood plan rather than a town centre plan. And they are clearly very focused on getting as far down into the grassroots as we can possibly go. And then they're making that emphasis time and time again. So can I guarantee it for the next 10 years? Absolutely no, because there will be another general election. So and who knows what will happen then? Thank you, Chair. Thank you. Councillor Martin. No, Councillor. Sorry, Councillor. Sorry, Councillor. Councillor Martin, did you want to speak? Councillor Alison Austin. Thank you, Chairman. Have I missed something? Well, is it when we're talking about the town? Are we talking literally about the town centre or because you were talking about? Oh, well, there's going to be Marks and Spencers out at Chainbridge. Of course, we're actually going to Whipperton or somewhere like that. So how? How tight is the area that they're going? That we think this is going to apply to? I mean, I'm theoretically a BTAC member, but I can't really see my ward as ever actually being in the town centre. You know, so what is the planned location? Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Councillor Austin, for your question. Yes, it very much is about the town centre. The original idea was about reinvigorating, revitalising, repurposing even the town centres to get, because up and down the country, we're not alone here. That we have empty shops, that we have a, you know, a dearth of footfall. You know, market towns up and down the country are struggling like we are. So this was initially a project that was to address that. The Labour government have more or less kept the same parameters and provided data, very minutiae, data in minutiae form about our town centre. And those are the metrics by which we will be measured so that we can show an improvement. So yeah, you're right to raise the question. It's a good question because what I don't want, Councillor Elbury, is you holding a surgery thinking Swine's Head and Brother Toft and Holland Vend can bid for pots of funding because it really is about what our borough-wide residents want to see in their town centre. Thank you, Jim. Thank you, Jim. Any other questions? No, I've just got a few things. No one else? The first thing, I just, more of an observation, I suppose. But since I have been back on the Council, we do seem much more prepared to sort of engage and listen to people, which I think is healthy. But I do, I'm not too sure we do have in place yet the mechanisms for that to come back to us. So we're going out and finding out nice lots of information, but we're not necessarily, then that's, you know, there's not the mechanisms necessary there. So I'm very grateful you're, you know, you're happy to come back, wasn't that? Because I do think that's where we may be missing the beat a little bit, is that we're now actually going out and talking to people, which is really a novelty. But it would be nice to, as general councillors or councillors, to know what's coming back. The next thing is, is the government is managed, or quite easily to confuse me. They are using this term, Plan for Neighbourhoods, to both apply to this old previous government pot of money, which is really to be spent in the town. In the town, but also they're using the same town term to enable neighbourhoods to do things. So yesterday they, excuse me for looking at my phone because I was just looking at the names of these. Yesterday the government issued two papers. One was the Plan for Neighbourhood Prospectus, which is to a degree more about the money plan, and it details that and things that are happening. But the other document, and a really interesting document, and I wonder whether it could be sent out to members, is the Plan for Neighbourhood powers. And in this document, the government are listing powers they envisage giving to neighbourhoods. For example, in fly tipping and planning and areas like this. So I do think, whilst at the moment, the Plan for Neighbourhoods is very much money being spent in the town centre. Obviously the government are proposing a much wider remit for that, which I think will now, in the fullness of time, engage our parishes and give us much more power to engage. So there actually is some quite, some very interesting reading in it, and I don't know whether you were, as I say, it was, I think it was the 16th it was issued. So I don't think that's something that again will be really useful for us as a councilman of the community going forward. Yeah. Sorry colleagues, it's just been pointed out to us that if anybody's got a blue Vauxhall in the car park, FV16 FNW, your front window's wide open. So I don't know if it's anybody's in the room this evening. Apologies to interject, just in case it is. And then just one, just final thing, just remember you can all claim 50 quid a year towards holding a surgery in your ward. So if you've got more than one councillor, you can combine together if you want to hold a surgery. Just a little reminder. Thank you. Councillor Martin. Thank you, Chairman. It's just with regards getting the message out to everybody and getting in as much information as we can. There's a lot of people obviously not social media, et cetera, or can't make it surgeries. I would personally, I will be knocking on the elderly's doors and asking them what they want, because there's a lot of the elderly people that say they won't come into town. So I would, I think that we should knock on doors and we should ask people in areas that we think are being forgotten, you know, or people that aren't going to get, get the message unless it's through the post or whatever else. I think that knocking on doors is a good way of getting information and then you get, then nobody can say, well, we wasn't asked. We wasn't asked because you're targeting everybody, aren't you? So that's just a suggestion, really. But thank you. Yeah, thank you, Chair. Yeah, I mean, that's ideal and not least because it's really good councillorship to do that kind of community engagement on a regular basis. How often do we hear residents say to us, oh, I don't see you for four years and then you turn up looking for my vote? Well, actually, if you've been knocking on doors the way you do, then you, you're doing your job properly. Yeah, so a good idea. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. Thank you. Any other questions? Councillor Isard? No? No, no, sorry, Councillor Martin, sorry. No, we all all right? Thank you. Can I just thank for coming and giving this and the leader, because obviously I think tonight, I'm going to harp on one of my other things again, this is the advantage of pre-scrutiny. Actually, it's keeping on top of things that are happening enables us, the committee, to look at things. So when we have our workshop, a reminder in early July, it was something we'd look at. And it just, it just, it's better if we're engaged because, you know, it's just healthy for everybody. So thank you both. I think it was actually very interesting and the way forward. If you want links to these papers, I'll leave them to you. But yeah, so yeah, thank you. So can I also apologise to who was going to be our first guest, so keeping him waiting. So we now go to item one, which was our HMO update. So yeah, so I can apologise to Jonathan for slightly messing around. I think I actually went for a really good session because I had a pre-briefing on this and actually was really interesting. And again, this is, you know, again, I think we're going to add a lot of information that is going to help us look at what, how we want to go forward. Also, Councillor Izzard, who started to push with us a while ago, it's taken a while to come to us. But thank you for your time and thanks, sorry for letting you. Thank you Chair and yeah, welcome everybody. Just prior to go into this, what I wanted just to do is to recap where we've previously been with this. Just take a couple of minutes at the start of this, so. Back in 2022-23, the Environment and Performance Committee discussed HMOs in quite some depths or houses in multiple occupations, sorry, which will abbreviate to HMOs for the rest of the evening. We had a very, very in-depth discussion in terms of the issues that we faced in the Borough, but also in terms of the enforcement powers that we've currently got and whether they were effective and robust enough for what we needed. Off the back of that, the committee put some recommendations forward to Cabinet and these range from lobbying central government to consider mandatory requirement for all private landlords to register with local authorities. Consideration of things like selective licensing and additional licensing which I'll come on to tonight, but also as an alternative to that, to look at the reinvestment of income that we receive within the team to carry out proactive work and inspection work and basically bolster up the enforcement activity that we're already doing. So that went to Cabinet and at that point in time, the recommendation back from Cabinet was very much a watching brief going to the fact that we had the Renters Rights Bill that was due to be coming in imminently, which has taken quite a while. But I can assure you is very, very much more the imminent stage of that definition or very much the timely manner of that definition now because we are expecting it in the back end of this year. But also to work on things like renewing our housing stock dates that was coming to the end of its life as well. So very much the steer from Cabinet at the time was to carry on doing what we're doing to reinvest any income that we receive through the enforcement activity, which again is something we can talk about tonight. But very much with a view to trying to keep an eye on things like additional incentive licensing alongside the Renters Rights Bill, which is obviously why we're keen to come back tonight and talk through it. So enforcement activity, if you'll just let me just take a couple of minutes first and foremost to talk about the health and safety, the housing health and safety rating system or the HHSRS as we call it. I know we're here tonight to talk about HMOs, but the rating system is basically the thing that underpins pretty much all the work that we do for enforcement. So regardless of whether you live in an owner occupied house, whether you own a house outright, whether it's mortgage, whether you rent that property, if you rent it from a private landlord or from one of the housing associations, the HHSRS applies to all those properties. This has now been with us for 20 years because it was part of the 2004 Housing Act. I'll cheeky look across to Andy at this point in time when it felt quite revolutionary at the time when that came in towards officers who had been dealing with the old Housing Act, which although it had been updated a couple of times in the 80s and the 90s, was pretty much 1960s legislation that dealt with things like missing pointing and the odd missing tile and window fittings. This absolutely this revolutionized what we were able to do and very much brought us up to speed with other colleagues in the health world, say for food safety or health and safety that were doing risk based approached inspection work. So overnight, but took quite a few years for it to ease itself in, but overnight we were presented with 29 hazards, which I've included in the appendices tonight. I won't go through all the 29 and be pleased to know, but it gave us 29 hazards to think about. All of which can potentially be present within the home and true risk based manner. The way we look at this is, first of all, what's the likelihood of this happening? So if someone's living in that property, are they going to be exposed to this hazard? We then apply the outcome. So what is the health impact of somebody living in a property with this hazard? So if it's a trip hazard potentially, that could be quite a high chance that somebody will trip if it's in a prominent place. But what's the likelihood of harm or injury coming from that depending on where that trip hazard might be within the property? So that, as I mentioned, that came in in 2004 and since then we've been working on that basis that all properties have got hazards in them. We know that and it's whether that hazard is enough of a risk for us to take action. So the higher risk categories, the category one categories, when they come out, we've got an absolute duty to do something about that. So the enforcement powers we've got be certainly improvement notices or prohibition orders and the like. We've got to do something with it. We can't just walk away from that. The lower risk ones, the category two hazards, we've got enforcement powers to ensure that work is carried out. But that's not a duty, that's an option for us to do because bear in mind category twos can range from a very, very, very low score to almost being a category one. So we have to be mindful of that when when we're taking out the enforcement activity. So as I mentioned, we've got things like emergency remedial work that we could do. So if something's that urgent, so if it's something maybe gas safety or electrical safety and we can't get in touch with landlord or we've been advised that landlord is away on holiday and nobody else can help or assist. Then we can absolutely do that work off our own back and serve the notice and recoup those costs retrospectively. We've got improvement notices, which if we feel that the landlord is has got potentially time to do it to do the work or got a bit more faith that they may they may engage with us. That might be more appropriate. We've also got prohibition orders that can either be standard prohibition orders where we give someone 28 days or more to carry out the work. But we've also got emergency prohibition orders where we can actually serve that on the day and help and assist the tenants to be rehoused because a property just is not safe. It's not safe and we've got great concerns that the health and safety of the tenants and the lives will be at risk if they were to remain in that property. So really far reaching. We do need to work with a lot of colleagues across the council to do all of this because we can't simply serve a prohibition order emergency one and walk away without our other housing colleagues that may need to be looking at alternative accommodation for those tenants. So that's the background to all of our work that we do. But then bearing in mind, we've then got houses of multiple occupation. So the HMOs and they absolutely present the highest risk to the tenants because if you imagine if anything happened in your property tonight and you had to get out quickly, say if your smoke alarm sounded, I'd like to think that most of us would know who's in the house with us and where they're sleeping at that point in time. And so if we needed to get out quickly, we could either grab those people and go. Or if we're confined to our bedrooms because the smoke's in the hallway or the landing, if we were to be rescued, we'd at least be able to tell the fire service who's in what room and who's actually in the property that night. There are other factors that come into play with HMOs, but that's about as basic as it gets knowing who's at home with you and what risk they may be at. HMOs are very different because if I was to rent a room in HMO, I wouldn't necessarily know who my next door neighbour was in the next room, let alone someone on a floor above, floor below or three floors different. Over the years, they've formed a very, very useful part of the jigsaw for accommodation for people that need single unit accommodation. But they've also presented us with some of the biggest challenges in terms of both the condition and also some of the ancillary impacts that they may have with things like antisocial behaviour, fly tipping and other environmental crime. So there's very much balancing act there. The HMOs themselves are, there are various categories of HMOs, but if they meet the, we've got various tests. So if it's a traditional kind of bedsit type accommodation or if you've got your own room but with shared facilities or even self-contained flats or converted buildings, they may all fall under the definition of a housing multiple occupation. Where things then ramp up again is if they need to be licensed. So not all HMOs need to be licensed if they're below a certain size, but those that first of all meet that criteria of test. So they fall within the definition of being a HMO if they're occupied by five or more people. And the crucial part is if those five or more people make up two or more households. So you could have a household of three and a household of two. You could have five individuals. You could have all mixed. You could have four and one. And without getting into too much detail, this is sometimes where lodging or lodgers can also turn a property into HMO. So if you've got mum, dad, two kids and you've got a lodger, potentially become a HMO. But if you've just got mum, dad and one kid and one lodger, that's only four people. So again, I said that no one's getting into too much of those details, but they're the type of properties that need to be licensed. So we have got a number of properties within the borough that fall within the definition absolutely don't need to be licensed. However, they will need to meet the additional standards that we'll be looking for for things like fire safety and for the fire alarm, smoke alarms and separation as well between the units. So it's certainly in terms of the work for the team, HMOs do present more of a challenge in terms of that higher spec of what's needed. The other issue that we have with HMOs is they will spring up sometimes overnight without obviously that need to advise us if they're not licensed, if they don't need to be licensed. If they need to be licensed, they absolutely need to register with ourselves. But if they if they were underneath that occupancy level or that household level, they don't need to engage with us. So that's some of the challenges that we face. In addition to that, you may have heard some authorities have gone down the additional licensing route for HMOs. And this is where that authority has decided that they they want to impose an additional licensing requirement for all HMOs within either within the whole of the district or borough area or just specific wards. So this tends to be, if you imagine, for some of the bigger city centres that have maybe a large student population where you've got row after row after row of terraced houses that have been given up to student accommodation in the private rented sector. And that's proved quite useful for those areas, because if you imagine some of those properties maybe don't pass that that licensing test because maybe we've got a terrace house that's maybe got three bedrooms upstairs and one downstairs that's only got four occupants in. But you may have thousands and thousands of them. Take your Leeds, for instance, or Manchester, where you've got rows and rows that have been bought up by private landlords that are doing that. It's proved a really useful tool for those authorities to try and keep a handle on the condition of those properties within their area. Separate to that, but that can also include HMOs, is selective licensing. Now, this is for schemes that that looks at the whole of the private rented sector and introduces a licensing requirement for any private rented property, whether it's a HMO or not. Or not, if it falls outside of that definition, that all rent private rented properties would need to be registered with the with the local authority. Where this has been looked at being used is in areas where you've maybe got high levels of antisocial behaviour or crime going on that can be absolutely directly linked towards those wards and linked to those properties within within the wards. I think they quite often spring up for a shorter period of time than maybe the additional licensing because it's more quite often used to. Resolve an issue of. Elements that maybe aren't always related to the housing, the elements that come along off the back of of that nature of the nature of the private rented sector. And unfortunately bringing some of those those issues with them. I think from memory, I believe this is what West Lindsay have done recently in Gainsborough as a trial, but then haven't carried on with it after that initial trial period and the results that they found by by doing that. So in order to do things like selective licensing, there needs to be evidence brought forward in terms of low housing demand, significant system problems of antisocial behaviour, poor property conditions, high levels of migration, potentially a high level of deprivation, high levels of crime. And both for selective and additional licensing, there needs to be evidence based for why a local authority would want to do that and certainly the last time this was discussed, the concern was the cost around that initial piece of work would need to be done. We had colleagues from both West Lindsay and from Stoke presented that they evidence that it's around about the £100,000 mark to gather all that evidence and prepare and present that to government to bring forward such a scheme. So there's obviously a level of concern over what that would look like financially, but also the. whether that would actually have legs to actually get it across the line, because by investing in that and preparing that evidence bundle doesn't guarantee that it will say, yes, you should have a selective licensing or additional licensing scheme. It may turn around and say. You should carry on doing what you're doing. So obviously rightly said there was a level of nervousness about jumping in at that point, knowing that we had the Renters Rights Bill on the horizon that would potentially bring us more powers anyway. And also without the detail of the stock condition survey work that we've literally just procured through one of the other teams within the Council. I'll stop talking now and hand over to Luke to give you an update of where we're at with the Renters Rights Bill because that will hopefully kind of bring us around to what's literally around the corner for the enforcement powers that we'll have moving forward. Thank you. Thank you, John. Thank you, Chair. And so, yes, the Renters Rights Bill previously known as the Renters Reform Bill and the biggest shake up in the private rented sector within the last 20 years, as mentioned by John previously, the Housing Act introduced in 2004 with a two year lead time. It was the last time there was a big shake up in the private rented sector. We're expecting the statutory guidance to land with us sometime around September in the next three months, and that there'll be a lead in time of approximately six to 12 months for the legislation to actually become operative. One of the main changes within the Renters Rights Bill will be the private sector database, so every landlord will be required to register on a national database, irrespective of whether it's a HMO or a private rented dwelling single household. This will give the tenants a lot more confidence and security around understanding who their landlords are, because at present there's been a lot of calculation to understand that tenants, a lot of tenants don't know who they're paying rent to, whether it's rent to rent schemes or subletting. In addition to that landlords will also need to be registered on the database to be able to seek certain possession grounds, so they won't be able to evict their tenants unless they're registered on this on this national database, and it will allow councils to target enforcement activity where it's needed most. In addition to that, there'll be a set of new investigatory powers issued to councils and its officers. They're unsure what they are at the moment, but it will enable officers to track down the responsible person as per the Act more efficiently and quickly. There is also a proposal to increase the maximum statutory fine on civil penalties from £30,000 per offence for the most serious offenders to £40,000 with a minimum statutory penalty amount of £7,000 per offence. In addition to that, the rent repayment orders that councils can assist tenants with is going to be increased so that the maximum amount of rent payable will go from 12 to 24 months, meaning that tenants have the potential to seek back 24 months of rent where there has been an unlicensed HMO operating without a licence. The next proposal is to extend Awaib's law to the private rented sector. This will hold landlords accountable so that the work ensures that there are statutory and mandatory time scales for works to be carried out, which landlords must undertake and empowers councils to enforce more proactively around Awaib's law. There is also to be a 12 month no relet period for any landlord that puts their property on the market to prevent them using that as a tool to evict tenants. And in addition to that, there will be a £7,000 statutory fine for any landlord that is encouraging rental bidding online. And if they don't put the rental rental amount on the advert that they're advertising for, that fine will extend to that as well. Last few points on this is that it's proposed there will be up to 20 new housing offences, one of which includes unlawful eviction, unlawful, sorry, eviction. So that now this will not necessarily needed to be carried out for a magistrates court through prosecution. This will be enabled to be a financial penalty issued for up to £40,000 where landlords have unlawfully evicted and harassed tenants. We're provisionally looking at a renters rights bill forum to be held at the Jakeman Stadium at Boston United on the 21st of October this year. And hopefully by then we will have the statutory guidance so that we'll be able to share that and we're looking to do some communications on that previously to attract as many local landlords as possible to that forum. And this coming Friday, there is a DASH workshop, DASH being Decent and Safe Homes, who we work with in Derbyshire. They're extending the Legionella risk assessments to landlords and what that might entail going forwards and that was previously circulated. And that's all for me. Thank you, Chair. Thank you. Yes, just to round off, it's twofold tonight. One, it's kind of like a bit of a look back and a review of those enforcement powers that we've got. But also, as Luke's just gone through there, very much a look to the future in terms of what we've got coming over the horizon, which is both exciting and kind of a slight amount of trepidation, I suppose, because whenever new legislation comes in, we do need to find our feet a little bit with it. It took quite a while for the housing health and safety rating system and the enforcement powers in the tribunal process to kind of find its feet a little bit, both for us and for landlords and for also the tribunal as well. So there will be a period of time of us bedding that in, I suppose, but yeah, long awaited. And I think the trepidation is very much in a positive way rather than a negative. So. I've got 20 questions, Chair. Yeah, thank you. No, that's actually a very, very good thing. Very useful. Thank you. No questions. Count Rhizard. Thank you, gentlemen, for your report tonight. I'm a little bit disappointed because it really goes on about enforcement. The major concern really for me as a councillor and some of the residents that are in my ward is just the number of HMOs. I've been keeping track on those that are registered to licence and the licence which is obviously sent through to us. But those unlicensed ones, ones that don't need to be licensed, they just slip through the net in that sense of the word. I mean, has Boston Borough Council written a local plan re-HMOs at all? Have you got a local plan just on HMOs? Not within the Housing Standards team, no. I know as part of the previous scrutiny work, the Assistant Director for Planning was asked to attend and gave evidence in terms of why there was no incentive or desire to bring in what we call Article 4, which is something that can be done to limit the number of HMOs. And he explained the rationale for that, but certainly for the Housing Standards team, our remit is all about trying to make sure that those that are out there, however they come about, but those that are out there are up to a standard that are safe for the tenants as opposed to the planning aspect. But I appreciate the two are absolutely intertwined. You can't have one without the other and ours is very much the reactive side of things rather than the preventative. Thanks for that, Jonathan. Yeah, you're quite right. And the work you're doing is brilliant. But it's not really addressing our concerns in the fact that, you know, Bristol have a policy to refuse HMOs in areas that have large number of HMOs. We haven't got that policy so we could have free houses altogether. All this HMOs we need a stronger policy to prevent overcrowding of HMOs in a certain area. We've got other councils that insist that garbage and recycling must be contained within the grounds of the property. We've got nothing like that as far as our guidelines as such. As you mentioned, lots of councils now go to Article 4 where classified C3s or C4s 1 or 2 unrelated must require planning permission. And I think that's where we've got to go as a council that every HMO must apply for planning permission and then look at where that HMO is being designated for and the area around that HMO. What we don't want to go back to is almost like the East End slums where we have loaded tenancies with houses and multiple occupancies. And as you say, that leads to other social behaviours. There's a lot that other councils are doing and I don't even know how do we do the fit for proper person licensing? Do we check very clearly on the people that are applying for these licenses? Yes. Just in terms of the bulk of what you've just said there, unfortunately I'm not in a position to advise because I'm not a planner and not wishing to pass the book. But myself and Luke, our job is absolutely to try and ensure that those that are out there are safe and up to standard. But I appreciate that. I understand that. When I when I heard that we was going to be discussing HMOs, I thought we was going to be discussing the whole topic of HMOs. The enforcement side of it is one side of it. What tonight the idea of tonight was to give us some background information so that we as councillors can then go forward and look what we want to try and achieve. So whether we want to have a task and finish group to look into whether we do do selective licensing or. look at section four or so the whole point of this is to give us some some background so that we as a committee can decide what work we want to do. Towards trying to improve the situation for our residents vis-a-vis HMOs. Yeah, thank you chair. So that's what this is what we're looking at. We're not looking at. Yeah, yeah, this is not meant to be the answer. This is letting us at least know what one of our section does and what's coming up in the future with the renters rights bill. And so that we at our workshop and a future meetings can look at what work we want to enable to try and get some change. I totally agree with you chair and that's absolutely fine and the enforcement that you do well done. I know you're a very small team and it must be incredibly hard work with it when you consider how much housing stock there is in Boston. And of course the new regulations coming on board are going to help in enforcement if we've got enough enforcement officers to be able to do it. But yes, you're right chair. My problem is if while we're allowing one to two licenses per month, the number of HMOs in a small square area of Boston town is becoming an increasing problem. And it must be one that this council take on board. I'll leave it there. Well, I don't know. I mean, I was heavily involved in 2014 or something. It would take a bit in us trying to get license of HMOs and things, but the problem we have then without being over. Well, one of the problems was we didn't really have strong enough evidence, I suppose, in the end. And so with what we do, I agree with everything you say, but we do need to make sure what we do, we do properly so that we can in the end improve the lives of people who are being, you know, my lives are being made hell. I mean, there's parts of my ward where literally street after street after street now, actually. So I'm not, you know, but that, but tonight was just to give us an idea. And I think we've had a really good report on, you know, what actually is happening from that side of it. And again, we can now call in planners to ask them to have a little talk as well and things. So, you know, but this is part of a process. Chair, there was one part of the question I can't answer though. And that's the fit and proper person test you mentioned. And yes, absolutely. We have a set criteria of what we, what we're allowed to look at, what we're allowed to include within that previous convictions. And also just in terms of any history of enforcement action that we've had with the landlord. Luke, was there anything you wanted to comment on that? Yeah, sorry. Thank you, John. And thank you, John. As you can say, we do carry out a basic disclosure as well. So that, that, that is verified. And as John's just said, the, the previous history of housing offences, if there's any listed with the council, that's taken into consideration as well. But the basic disclosure is what will dictate whether there's been any criminal activity previously. Thank you. Councillor Danny. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's, it's very interesting to, you know, to, to listen and to read because I'll be reading it, you know. There is things which is here. I would like if we can probably push for them more because it doesn't happen because what I can see here is always landlords, landlords, landlords. Well, some landlords, the same contract with letting agencies. The letting agencies that the soul, the soul responsible for managing that property. So one of the things which has happened, first of all, the rent doesn't go to the landlord directly. It goes to the agency and then the agency will deduct 15%, 18% from it. Now I think it's 15%. Some of them charge 20%. So they will take their management fees from that. So that's one of the things I think we should emphasize on. The second thing, if I give you example of an agency who has only 450 houses because some of them in Boston, they have more. And let's say average rent is 700 pounds and they're taking 15%. So they will be taken from each house per year around 1,140 average. If you multiply that by 450 houses, there's over a half million they're making. Okay. But we still I'm going to defend the landlords. Not all of them. Some of them. They're not good. Some of them directly. But some of them, they work very hard for the houses. So then the agency, it doesn't exist. So you go and target the landlord to give you the fine starting from 7,000 pounds to 30,000 pounds to 40,000 pounds. That's one of the things then. I think we should involve ourselves with directing and helping letting agencies to manage if they have a contract with the landlord. It's their duty to provide these things because I can assure you that a lot of agencies defailed to meet the normal standards for letting. They do. And talking to a lot of landlords, which is they have their houses with agencies. They took them off and they solve the houses. They cannot do it anymore because the fines, the legislations, the laws, and you have to comply with that. The second thing I would like to touch on as well is you have here on page eight. We have unsure residents will be afforded the same protection as people in licensed HMOs. Now, if I live in a house, which is I own and I buy it in a nice street and suddenly you have an HMO with probably eight mature men next to you. They're going to be drinking. They're going to be using and which way you go. You have to call the police most of the time because the noise is after 10 and it doesn't work at most of the times. So what it does. That's a resident probably with family. They will move on and then they will go somewhere else. So we will create that kind of not a hatred, but there is a reason. People are resenting this kind of behaviors. And believe you and me, it was one on Brother Toft Road. I think number one, you want to thank six Polish guys or seven. Every morning, a bag of bottles going to the street, dump it and go back. It's every morning was happening. So I mean, they move now and the landlord is selling the house. He doesn't want to rent anymore. And this is the things which is I think we should work with the agencies because they are the one who lets the houses landlords. Most of the time, they don't know who is renting the house because once they say, as I said, once they signed the contract, it becomes the responsibility of that letting agency to carry all the checks. And I tell you from experience, a house was destroyed within seven months and the agency didn't check it. And it wasn't the fault of the landlord because a house has the door open 24 hours, got infested with rats. He took all the alarm alarm system, all the fire alarms and it was stripped. I come back to health and safety and you mentioned here there is food and there is fine for that. The person found a raw chicken in one of the bedrooms rotten. So. I'm not defending, as I say, landlords, but we have to look at the agencies who take on their neck the responsibility to represent these people. They are the one who collects the money. They are the one who keeps the money for a week or three days in their bank accounts to make more interest. They are the one who have probably five or six people working for them. And then there is the hand demands, which is they don't pay. They get paid from the landlord. So the landlords, most of the time they get hit by the repairs. They get hit by the fines. They will get hit by their bad landlord. So we have to look at that. I'm sorry if I take on. We have to look at that. And I think, as I say, Mr Chairman, that we are here to advise and see where we will go from here. And I think we have to work as members of this committee to work with the licensing and the planning, how it will work. And we have to make sure that it's suitable for everyone. And as Councillor Izzard said, we don't want to have. And you said it yourself, Mr Chairman. We don't want to have a street where there is a decent family. And then you have six houses with probably just guys living in them. And it makes them worry about whatever can happen. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman. I've spent quite a lot of time, probably the last two years, going in and out of HMOs with various hats on. And I have to say that, you know, in all honesty, they're not of them. Most of them. In fact, all of them, I think, have been reasonably decent places. Very low levels of mental health. I've noticed in HMOs. Most people pull together quite well. In fact, the HMOs is generally a WhatsApp group amongst all the people living in the HMO. So they're able to keep in contact with each other to make sure things like the bins are put out. I do appreciate everything Councillor Danny has said. But I don't think it's exclusive to HMOs that you get the delinquent behaviour, the dumping of fly tipping and all that sort of thing. I don't think it's necessarily HMOs that do that and it's private, normal private rented arrangements, which are not responsible. I think it may be across the piece. But in my experience, the HMOs that I've been in, I've never really experienced fly tipping. They seem to work out amongst themselves how to use the various coloured bins and to ensure that they're put out on the streets at the relevant time. So I'm quite upbeat about HMOs. I take the point that council results made. I mean, basically, you know, you can have too many, but too many quiet HMOs. And I live next to an HMO now. My next door neighbour died three years ago. The four bedroom house has been turned into a six bedroom HMO. There are six people living in that property. I hear less of them than I heard of him. You know, funnily enough, and they're all very, very nice people. And being a nosy neighbour, I'm often out there talking to them because I've been painting my fence recently. They've got the landlord to provide them with some paint and they've painted their fence. So, you know, it's about getting out there and engaging with people and talking to them and encouraging them to do the right thing. And very, very often they will. And in my experience, they have. My query, my question really relates to something which Councillor Danny's alluded to, and that is about the database and the confirmation. Because ultimately the landlord is legally responsible and not necessarily the agent being responsible. Is the agent's details registered on the database or is it the landlord? So is that or are they both registered? So you so that somebody who's making an inquiry can go either via the landlord or via the agent? Was it just the landlord's information which is on there? Because as Councillor Danny is referred to, sometimes the landlords are absent and rely on the agents to do the. You know, the maintenance. My second point is there's a lot of information in here. I made a point earlier on during the last presentation about exterior dilapidation. And it's important. I think with an HMO that the people who live in it live in what appears to be a decent house on a decent street. And it's the exterior of a lot of the HMOs which disappoint me rather than necessarily the interior of them. where there are generally minimum standards maintained. The exterior can be shocking in my experience very often. Thank you. Thank you chair. So just to pick up on a few points Councillor Danny made. In respect of the letting agent being culpable, the management regs, the 2006 management regs, do place an onus on any manager as well as the as well as the owner. So that does mean that if the council looked to issue a financial penalty, that that would mean that the letting agent could potentially be culpable as well. So there is a form of robust enforcement there. The challenge that we have is that the all the statutory legislation points towards the owner under part seven of the Housing Act 2004. It predominantly lists the person that keeps the rent and being the owner is the person that the local housing authority have provision to enforce over. So whilst the letting agent collects the rent, they're not the one that retain the majority of that rent. And that's where the legislation is difficult from a council's perspective, because we have to follow exactly what our rules govern us to do. I'm hoping that the the renters rights bill picks up on this as well and is able to open up. Because I agree that I do think letting agents are very much involved as involved as the landlords, if not more. So they should be held held to the same degree. And I'm hoping that that that's revised in the in the renters rights bill as well. Does that answer the question? Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Sorry. Yes. And in respect to Councillor Gilbert. So the database itself has registered the license holder. So when a HMO license is submitted as local housing authority, the applicant and the license holder can be two different people or two different entities, if you like. But it's the license holder that is published on the database online. And in respect of the exterior of the premises, that's where the HHS RS, I'll call it for short, the housing health and safety rating system. That's where that still applies to HMOs. So that's where any exterior disrepair would be addressed, but it doesn't extend to cosmetic. Unfortunately, it is simply disrepair or anything that's likely to have a harm outcome on anybody occupying the premises. Thanks for clarifying that. That's my main concern, the fact that it doesn't cover cosmetic appearance rather that it just focuses on risk. And just on that, there has been occasions where we have managed to work with our planning colleagues, especially on the enforcement side. So I think Section 215 of the Town and Country Planning Act allows for, if it's bringing the neighbourhood into, I forget the terminology, but basically if it's dilapidated, it's bringing the neighbourhood down. Things like overgrown gardens that maybe aren't harbouring rats and mice and any vermin, but just overgrown, attracting the wrong source of attention for property, sometimes using empty properties as well. So as ever with the Council, there's probably a solution somewhere. It might not always be in that same team, but quite often there's something somewhere that we can dip into with a bit of collaborative working. And if we need it, we need to find it, don't we? Yeah. And just going back to the previous conversations we had, the governments released this Plan for Neighbourhoods powers, which is different to this money thing. And within that, they are they are talking of enabling neighbourhoods to look at natural condition of people off the front of houses and stuff. So that is something that the government is looking at with this plan for neighbours, the sort of the wider plan. So there is some sort of hope in that as well. Councillor Danny, then Councillor Wellbrey. Thank you, Mr Chairman. I just want to come back to page 10 where we have the housing health and safety rating system. And there is one thing which is I did mention a long time ago, and I will go to point, I mean, number 11, crowding and space. And then I will connect it to domestic hygiene and food safety and noise. The law, if it says there is eight or ten people living in the same house from the same family, you can do anything. So therefore, there is a lot of houses now in Boston, which is there occupied by different members, but they call themselves as a family. So what's your actions towards this kind of situation? Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Councillor Danny. So in terms of crowd and space, we have got a couple of different options available to us prior to the housing act bringing in HHSRS. We did have and still have got standards in terms of how many people can actually occupy a room. So it is basically simple as this size of room can have up to this many occupants. It even went to the extent of dealing with children up to a certain age as being half a unit, should we say in there? Well, sorry, up to a certain age zero, because if it's a newborn baby, then from a newborn baby up to, I think, teenage years, it's half a unit and then a full unit from there. It also looks at making sure that you haven't got a boy and a girl, even if a brother and sister sharing a room beyond a certain age as well. So first and foremost, and that's always been, well, not always. Certainly within my career, that's always been around. What we've then got in terms of the crowd and space standard is trying to ensure that we haven't got other rooms being used for sleeping arrangements and understanding that need that a family of a certain size also needs some other space that isn't just a bedroom. So it needs to be able to have other rooms in the house for living, be it living rooms, dining rooms, that sort of thing. Because again, the old Housing Act, anything that didn't have a bath, a kitchen or a toilet or a bath in it could be used for sleeping accommodation. And obviously, if you're cramming that number of people into a property, then you've not just got the physical elements of obviously people being able to pass illnesses on to each other a lot more quickly. You've also got things like collision as well because you've got people literally bumping into each other if you've got too much crowding going on. But there's also the psychological distress as well of people not having their own space, especially for children who are growing up, developing, etc. to not have their own space as well as for adults as well. So we have got a couple of different tools available to us. And this is one of the areas where the old legislation has stood the test of time and it's still useful and relevant. So thankfully they haven't taken that away. So that's probably one of the few things I can remember from when I first started my career was the standards we had then. Thank you, Mr Chairman, thank you. My next question then, if you meet a situation as such, will you evict the extra people or what would be the procedure of dealing with it? If you don't mind, thank you. Yeah, thanks, Councillor Danny. It's a very delicate situation because the majority of times we would come across this is where we've maybe got two people who've come together. who have got children from previous relationships and so all of a sudden a property that isn't overcrowded overnight can suddenly become very much overcrowded with additional family members. It also happens naturally with families that just grow and that's part of life. However, what we have to be mindful of is if we were to serve the prohibition order, which sometimes is absolutely the only way we can go forward with this, because in order for an improvement notice to work, there needs to be a solution. So unless you can make the property bigger, you certainly can't shrink a family. That's not within our powers to do that, certainly not. We're not in the business of trying to split families up either because, you know, again, one, that doesn't sit within the Housing Act, but secondly, morally, that wouldn't sit well. All right, what we try and do is work with the landlord and with the tenant if it's in the private sector. Sometimes it's not in the private sector, it's in the only occupied sector, but absolutely working with the landlord and the tenant and also our own teams here, the housing teams back at the Council to see if there's any way we can help and assist. Unfortunately, some families are just so big that, you know, there's not anything we can do. We can't magic an eight bedroom property up, say for instance. What we do have at our disposal within the Housing Act when it came in 2004 is what we call a hazard awareness notice. Now, this is occasionally used where, if you remember me saying that when we've got a category one hazard, we have a duty to do something we can't, it's not an option. If we have to serve a notice but there is no solution to it, we can potentially serve a hazard awareness notice, which is basically telling all parties involved what the problem is and giving some responsibility back to those parties to either try and resolve it or or in some situations to actually live with that risk. It's identifying the risk and passing that burden of responsibility on to those who hold that risk within their day to day lives. So not something that we do very often. It's not something we don't do without a lot of consideration as well, because obviously to do that is passing the owners back on to landlords and tenants. But sometimes there is sometimes there is truly no solution if you've just got a naturally expanding family. Councillor Wilbury. The Renters Rights Bill, it seems to involve extensive changes. I just wondered how feasible it is for this new bill, how feasible it is to be enforced and have you got any extra resource? I mean, for example, the new law that's extending to the private sector that empowers tenants to challenge and save conditions. I mean, that's going to be a huge increase in workload, I'd imagine. Have you got any thoughts on that? Thank you. Yes, thank you, Chair. And thank you, Councillor Welby. So at the moment, they've projected nationally that there will need to be an uplift of 4000 officers. So they've they have identified have identified that in respect of the early stages. It's about the education to to the landlords as well. And I know a lot of this comes across as enforcement, but we we're hoping to educate the landlords as well to in an attempt to to work with the landlords at an early stage to reduce the amount of enforcement. Enforcement really is the last last resort as it's already been identified, how resource heavy it is on the council. But at present, a lot is still unknown because the statutory guidance hasn't been released. We are working on policies, procedures and things that will look to drive this forwards already. But until that guidance is released, we we're really still in the dark. Thank you. Councillor Einhard. Yeah, just touching on the subject just so. How often in the last six months have you done unannounced checks on HMOs at all? Thank you, Chair. So, yes, there's the proactive inspection days that we carry out with the police. Generally speaking, give or take up every four weeks we go out with Lincolnshire Fire and Rescue and the police service to identify either HMOs we're already aware of or ones have recently recently come in. To date, from April 25 to date, there have been 62 HMO complaints and 15 so far have been inspected with 19 put on the list to inspect. That's in conjunction with the ones that are mandatory licensed as well. So we carry out the the mandatory licensing checks in addition to the unannounced inspections. I won't say we tend to prioritize the ones we know about, but they're the ones that we we know are definitely HMOs. So we officers could turn up to unannounced inspections and more often than not find that it's been extended family staying or there's been a party over the weekend or such things like that. So, yeah, that would be the numbers to date on this questions. Thank you very much for that, Luke. That was highlighting and what Susanna mentioned with the new regulations coming in. You we really we really need as a council to support you and give you more to enforce with because it will open up. I'm sure quite a lot more residents concerns and we just played a middleman between our residents who come to us and say. They're up till 3 o'clock in the morning. So, you know, for us, we're the kind of the front line and then we have to rely on you wonderful guys to try and do the work for us. But yes, thanks for anyway for the. The figures. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, no worries. Are there any more questions? Councillor Woodliffe would like to come to the table. Thank you Chairman for allowing me to speak. I've talked Council Gilbert spoke very well indeed, actually gave a very balanced view of the situation. I suppose from. We need obviously to drive out of the market those people who are just rogue landlords. They give everything a bad name. So I think anything we can do to push them out of the system, I think is beneficial. But I am concerned, of course, that we have a housing crisis. And of course, the loss of properties from the renting market will only increase the situation that we have. So there is a there's a balance in mind. I'm concerned. I did wonder actually whether it's possible to place a charge on a property and then have property renovated. If the situation we have a property which is not being maintained properly as such, would it be possible for the Council to place a charge on the property and then pay for that property to be based to a standard? So that when the property is sold and the Council recoups the charge, that's one thought I thought perhaps. And I suppose actually regarding a nuisance, of course, that's really a police action really. Essentially, if people are behaving irresponsibly, possibly environmental health perhaps for the Council. But I think people are actually behaving badly at night or whatever. I thought that was more of a matter for the police to handle. It's kind of a breach of the peace perhaps. I am concerned about the amount of property available. We do have housing prices. We can't build enough houses quickly. The government wants to build one half million in the next five years. I think they have a job to do half a million if I'm one half million. So it is an issue. And obviously, if we lose, if good landlords are frightened to rent their property and decide instead to sell. And that property goes off the market and that makes the situation much worse. But I do believe we have to deal with the rogue landlords. Rogue ones need to be really driven out. No doubt about that. But I think we do need some form of balance. But I am interested to know whether you could put a charge on property. If a landlord is not maintaining property correctly. Then is it possible for a charge based on the property? For the council to order the work to be done. And then whether the property is sold at some point in the future. And that money is recouped with interest. Thank you very much, Sharon. Thank you. Thank you. I've responded to that yesterday. Yes. Thanks, Councillor Woodliffe. The short answer is yes, we can. But that is, how can I put it? It's probably a previous way of kind of the guidance of how the government wants us to deal with landlords. The introduction of bringing in the civil penalty notices is very much the preferred way. of what government are asking us to do. So if you take to one side the emergency remedial work. So if we did emergency remedial work and it was a landlord that has dropped off the face of the earth. Yes, absolutely. We would then need to place it as a charge on the property. And when that was, when the property is sold, that would be paid back with interest. So putting that to one side, what the current kind of guidance from where government wants us to go is. If someone's in breach of an improvement notice or a prohibition order. That we absolutely go down the civil penalty notice route. It's a much more robust way of dealing with landlords. And dare I even say in a public arena. It's a way of squeezing out those landlords. that we don't want to be landlords within the borough. Because the level of fine that would be. that all council has been encouraged to pursue. is set up. It's been set at that level for a reason. because they don't want those landlords to be operating. So rather than going through a very lengthy process. where yes, the works will get done. But eventually, very, very eventually the council will get their money back. The emphasis is very much more on trying to. Support the good landlords, drive out the bad landlords. And use that as a tool to get the properties to a standard. Now, sometimes that means if we're serving a prohibition order. Somebody needs to leave that property and be re-housed somewhere. until such time as that property can come back into use. But yeah, that's the current way. that we're being kind of steered towards. in terms of our enforcement activity. Yes, I agree with that. And obviously we need to make sure. that people are not fit to rent properties. are not allowed to do so. Because you have to protect tendance against abuse. And we need to use all the forces that we have available. to make sure that people who do that type of thing. are punished or are dealt with. I can't use a punishment. He's not caught. But I dealt with in that particular way. And forced out of the market. I suppose the only thing is I want to be sure that. You know, good landlords aren't put off from putting their property up. Because we do need the rented accommodation. You know, and without rent accommodation. We'll have people on the streets. So we have two things to balance out. But yes, thank you very much. I fully support what you're doing. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman, for speaking. I'm going to speak. Councillor Danny. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just, you know, you have triggered something, you know, while Councillor Woodleaf was talking. I mean, I know for sure there is places here rented by the government for asylum seekers. Do you check these places as well? Thank you, Councillor Danny. The short answer is no, not from a housing standards point of view. This is very much hotel accommodation. If that's what you're referring to in terms of the emergency accommodation. The properties are inspected by our colleagues from fire safety. Because hotels predominantly come under their remit. So they would intervene on that side of things. Where we have dispersed accommodation that's being procured by the Home Office. So this is accommodation whereby an asylum seeker will have had their initial assessment carried out. When they've been in the emergency accommodation. So in, for instance, in a hotel. If after that initial assessment they've been deemed they can make a full application. They're then placed in dispersed accommodation within the communities. Dispersed accommodation predominantly comes in the form of what we'd look at being a HMO. And if that if that property is a HMO, then yes, absolutely. It's expected that the Home Office would liaise with the local authority. And especially if it needs to be licensed that they would submit that license application. Pleased to advise that we've got very good working relationships with the company who the Home Office work with. And that's a company called Serco and they've made a number of applications for licensed HMOs within the borough. So as things stand at the minute, no concerns of how that's being operated from a housing standards point of view. There's full engagement where we have had cause to contact them about a complaint. They've been very quick to respond and to act. So they are acting as responsible landlords in that regard. So if there's no more questions. Yeah. Thank you, Chairman. And if I could just offer the committee a reflection, I've just opened up a briefing note. I did for the previous use 20 years ago. Everything that has been played tonight matches what was played out 20 years ago. I've got two former portfolio holders in here that have spent lots of time, invested lots of resource. What we're dealing with is a wicked problem, a problem to which there is no optimal solution because the solution is driven by finance. And whilst we get into a debate around a specific topic as we've done tonight, we then have to go away and reconcile that in relation to the bigger picture of all of the services we provide as a local authority that really is difficult. What I will, Councillor Woodliffe's question, 20 years ago, I wrote about HMOs. On a positive note, HMOs do at least three things. One, house lots of people. Two, in the majority of cases provide good quality, well managed accommodation, which 20 years later plays out by your experience, Councillor Gilbert. And three, some of us in this room will remember this, others won't. It means that we don't have hundreds of people being shipped in for labour day in, day out as we used to have. And every week in the news, see two, five, ten people die in a white van crash on the A16, 17 or 52. But it comes back to our ability as an authority to resource. The law prohibits us setting targets for civil penalties to reinvest in the service. That's not good business, setting a target for colleagues. But what I will say over the last, well, over the last 21 years since the Housing Act came in, Luke, John, former colleagues have ensured that thousands of people in this borough have enjoyed much better accommodation by the action that we've taken. Be that the entry level hazard awareness notice through to some of us having issued and seen out emergency prohibition orders. So it's the same questions 20 years on. And it all comes back to relative resourcing priority in the global scheme that is corporate finance. Thank you for that. Thank you. Indulgence. Seriously, can I thank you both, both Jonathan and Luke. In my view, this has really given us a lot of information. Thank you, Chairman. I've kept very quiet on this. We have hotels. In. The wider borough. Some within. The town itself. That. Some are theoretically housing. Rough sleepers. Rough sleepers. Are they housing rough sleepers? Or are they asylum seekers? What do we know? But I'm being trying to be very, very careful because I don't want any individual location or any individual. landlord to be identified. Do we know anything? Yeah, Jonathan. Cool. Thank you, Councillor Austin. I can absolutely categorically advise that there are no hotels being used within the borough for asylum seeker accommodation. That's the first point. With regard to rough sleeper accommodation. Yes, the council does use certain properties for temporary accommodation for people who are sleeping rough. Unfortunately, I wouldn't be able to tell you what those properties are. We do get asked from time to time to inspect various properties to make sure that those properties that are being used past the HHSRS. But I don't have a list of which ones currently being used and by how many that I could bring to you tonight. Thank you. I think that's reassuring. Okay. Thank you. Can't try that. Yeah, just a brief point. And that was fantastic where you talk about 20 years ago. Of course, I suppose 20 years ago there wasn't so many HMOs in a small area of Boston town. They've grown every year on, year on, year on. My issues are the same as what Oxford have is they prevent any HMOs if they don't supply adequate parking. So I have one that has four cars, which really causes a parking nuisance to the other residents around the area. And of course, like all things, Boston is unique in certain ways of a very low paid area, high immigration. I'm not sure what it was like 20 years ago. I weren't living here, so I don't know what it was like for me. And what I'm looking at is I feel that we're just increasing too many in a small area and not putting enough guidelines or restrictions on what we're allowing and what we're not allowing. And increasing then may be the enforcement when it all kind of goes slightly adhered. So I appreciate what you're saying about 20 years, but even where I was living 20 years ago is a lot nicer place than it is now. I was actually the portfolio holder not 20 years ago, but around about the same time that these issues were being discussed once again. And we're talking about a time when Boston would receive at least one or two coach loads of people generally coming from Poland and the A8 accession countries and disappearing into Boston. And at that time, many of the town center properties that are now HMOs were occupied by elderly people and the accommodation for those workers wasn't available. And the basic problem that you had back then was you had high levels of defecation, high levels of urination going on in the town center. And you also had a phenomenon called, and I have to be careful what I say, called hot bedding. I must be careful, I don't say bed hopping, which I said at one meeting once and everybody fell about laughing, but we had hot bedding. But we had hot bedding so we and with that when all sorts of other health issues related to sort of scabies and all sorts of things of that sort. So things are palpably better than they were back then. Most of the people who come here to work now have a decent room in a decent house. Yes, of course, there are going to be problems. There's problems with the rented sector in relation to fly tipping. And there's also problems generally in relation to sort of other minor issues such as the parking and annoying the neighbours. But from my experience, things are much, much better in Boston now than they were back in those days. Again, I'm now going to actually close this. I think about my fourth attempt, I think. But what I was trying to say is, yeah, I found this really useful. I think it's got us a lot of food for thought or other early maybe want to look at. And yeah, but also a better understanding of the great work you do. So can I thank you genuinely for what you've done tonight? It's really been good. So thank you very much, both of you. Cheers. And you'd have to stay for the last time. Thank you, Jeremy. Thank you, members. Thank you. OK, so the last item on the agenda is the work programme. We have, just a reminder, we do have on the, I want to say, 3rd of July. Well, yeah, we do have a workshop where we're obviously able to, you know, to, amongst ourselves, discuss where we want to go looking at things over the next year or so. But has anybody got anything to raise on the work programme for the moment? If not, Councillor Danny, are you? Yeah, I just want to mention something, Mr. Chairman. We have a workshop on the 3rd of July. That's what I just said. Yeah. Yeah. So are we allowed to talk about the neighbourhood plan? Yeah, we can talk about literally. It is for that. We can talk about anything we want. It just, you know, that will be very interesting because it will be the last meeting before the end of November, where we have to submit our plans for the 2 million. Yeah, although we, we, we, that we have been promised that we'd have something in October. I mean, we've got a monthly meeting. Yeah, there is one meeting for that. Yeah, but the workshop, the whole idea of the workshop is, yeah, we're not sitting here. We've got no committee rules. We've got no camera on. We can sit there. There's no question that is a silly question. It's just your chance to say, in my ward, this is happening. Is it happening elsewhere or whatever? Councillor Gould. In that case, I mean, presumably that's my opportunity to raise the issue of bins on streets. Yeah, that's what I said last time. And gating orders can be brought up at that meeting. Yeah. So that's the whole idea of this is if we can, you know, say, look, I've got, I mean, the one I've got here at the moment is the County Council. I think I raised this last time, but I'm going to read it again. You know, not doing road repairs and just, and actually telling people they're not going to do it. So I don't know about that now, but I'm just saying this is, we can just say I've got this. Have you got this? Yeah. And so on and so forth. So that's what it, but that's just 3rd of July. One more thing, which is I forgot you mentioned, you know, the, the bins, you know, we have a few alleyways around Boston. Um, and that now in some areas become like sort of toilets because there is the rough sleepers that's using them at night. Yeah. When you go in the next day, it's the whole point. You know, we could be meeting on the 3rd of July and it's actually open to any counselor. They haven't got to be on this committee. Um, they haven't, you know, as long as they're not executive members. And even if executives want to come, they can come to the very beginning if they actually want to address us on an issue as a ward member. Yeah. Councillor Staples. I've kept quite all night. Councillor Gleeson, would it be helpful if members probably submitted to you some of the concerns they have so that you've got a rough idea what may happen? Yeah. Particularly if there are things where you might, we might need to have some information available for you. Yeah. That's what I just wondered actually. I mean, luckily both, um, Andy and Christian have volunteered to be there to help us. So we do, we'll have two senior officers there as well. But the whole idea is if this is, you know, if even an executive member, they've got an issue as a ward member that they want to come and talk to us about, that's fine. Or even something that's bubbling under in their portfolio. The whole idea, what I want is us as a committee to be sort of on top of as much as we can. Looking at things before they happen if we can. Trying to drive some of the agenda if we can. And so there's a chance for us just to join together, you know, and have a good, you know, natter. Thank you. So thank you for your time and I'm closing the meeting. Thank you very much. Ray and Amanda. That went on lock. Or. It was. Thank you. That went on lock. Or? Well. It was.