Transcript

I'm sitting here for sure, coloured chair, the agenda chair, that's the one I wrote on, that's the one you wrote on chair, gender item one, apologies as before, no chair, we have different policies for this afternoon, we have policies from David Coggan, Ian Roberts, Councillor David Richardson, Councillor Arnold Woolley and Councillor Carol Ellis. Councillor Andy Hughes as well, please, and Councillor Dabbie, I would Councillor Anther, okay, declarations of interest, agenda item two, any interest, thank you, yes sir? Yeah, notice motion from Councillor Ibertson, personal interest, thank you, on the gender item three, notice of motion pages three to six, this item has received any notice of a motion, two have been received, yes sir, so we have a notice of motion from Councillor Coggan's code and that was received first, so that is listed first in the agenda papers chair, it's convention to take them in that order although Councillor Coggan isn't present, my view is that it is a validly moved motion, in the sense that it's on the agenda and therefore it is open to others to actually move and speak to it in the chamber, so it is still a valid item of business, okay, is that clear with everyone, happy with that? Questions, one point I would just make chair before, I think it would be Councillor Parker's who rises to speak to it, we seem to have a slightly earlier restoration of the motion on the agenda papers because it's in state, Council instructs Cabinet, Council cannot instruct Cabinet, I think I had agreed with Councillor Coggan that that would subsequently be changed to Council to request Cabinet, I think he used the word petitioned, so, but provided Council is clear that it can't, it can't dictate to Cabinet because Cabinet isn't exactly, this is an executive function and Cabinet is free to make its own decisions, we will be all right chair, okay, any comments or questions on that? Councillor Parker's, yeah, thank you Chair, remember notice of that position for this meeting was approved, it was agreed with the proposals of the notice that the meeting would take place at ten o'clock this morning before the AGM, and I understand that following a plea by the leader to the officers, the timing of this meeting was changed at short notice to this afternoon, as I consequence my colleague Councillor Coggan's Coggan who was due to the pose of motion cannot now do so as he has other prior commitments, I will therefore propose this motion in his stead, I am assured by the officers that the reason for the changing timing was purely administrative convenience, but in any event we shouldn't be having to debate this motion at all, last year following the Welsh Government's unlawful last minute withdrawal of funding, our full Council overwhelmingly passed a motion for flinch here to find a way to feed its hungry children during the school holidays, following subsequent cross-party discussion it was agreed to provide help during last year's Christmas holidays and to find a longer term solution before this budget was set, the payments over Christmas were made and I do thank the leader and the previous cabinet for enabling this to happen, but nothing much has changed since, no plan is in place, nothing was put in the budget and as a result children are still going hungry during the school holidays and so unfortunately colleagues, the motion before you is necessary, the cost will be around £250,000 for the summer holiday support, a lot of money but not so much as has been suddenly found without a bat of an eyelid for other unbudgeted expenditure and it will provide much needed assistance to some of the poorest in our communities, so I commend it to you, thank you. So Chair, it's a notice motion, we need a seconder and there may be people wishing to speak, there are two campuses indicated, I'm not sure which order they indicated in where the Glenbanks was first or second, Glen and then the Councillor Eversenshire, sorry I was talking over the chair, I think the chair called you to speak, was that correct? Yes, thank you Chair, in that case I'll be happy to second this notice motion, I think it's something that's been important for everybody to support, as Councillor's Parkers has said it's something that has been provided in the past and I can't see how anyone could actually not want to support this to be honest, I mean I know that the amount of money is finite and it's not there for unlimited money but it's something that you have got to find whether it has to come from reserves, I think it's something we need to find, I mean, a pair of us with Council Banks is here, the two walls we've got sit in a horrendously bad area for take up of three school meals in the fact that we actually built, beat unfortunately some of the areas of Denvershire that our clusters severely deprived in our take up of school budgets, namely two of our areas as in Penn for and Mustin, so there's a severe need out there, in fact my wife, Councillor Pamela Banks actually runs a food bank in Mustin which shows the need because the take up is so great of the need for it, so fully support this motion, thank you, Chair. Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Iberton, please. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, people's voice wholeheartedly welcomes this motion and commends it in the strongest possible terms. Our Council has choices to make, they are not easy choices and we're all aware of the budgetary situation in which we find ourselves, but we do have choices, it is wrong to reduce local government to a simple case of trying to account to the lowest common denominator to try and cut and cut and not consider where we can be doing more, where some of the things that we aren't doing at present are of greater priority than some of the choices that were included within the Council's budget in February. We may hear discontent as to this motion on the basis of cost. There is no greater priority for us as a group of five and I would hope for this whole chamber than tackling child poverty. Where children are in poverty, there is no excuse for not helping. There are other issues with poverty across Flintshire and by moving on child poverty within the holidays, we do not turn our backs on those. We may hear, well, what about the parents, and that is a significant issue, but if we are going to start somewhere, it is morally right to start with children who wake up and go to bed hungry. There is no greater moral imperative that this Council will consider today than to support this motion and I commend it to the Chamber. Thank you, Councillor and Councillor DEPUTY. Thank you very much. This is definitely something that we should consider, but we have heard, we have tried this scheme before and until I get some feedback, I would like to reserve my position on this. How successful has this been in the past? What was the percentage take-up? Did the children most need in this service actually get the service? What did we actually do in remote areas? How did we provide the service there and did we provide transport? So, until these items are clear, I am sure that the information must be available. I do not think we should commit more money until we know how well the scheme went last time. So, with that, Mr Chair, I will sit down, thank you. I will not be posing this motion, but it will accept it as it is without amendment. I will confirm it will come before cabinet so that the June 3rd deadline given in the motion is met. This Council, like every other in the UK, finds the area of food poverty itself because we need to deal with it because we have to find local solutions to national issues. There are those who will figure out what else government is providing support to not provide it, so I am not providing support for COVID for the police called Holy Hunger after COVID. There are those who will point in the UK to those who will point to the lack of any national provision for the Holy Hunger because of the whole of the UK over the same period. I do not agree that as the western government seems to place itself that being on benefit seems to be like a lifestyle choice. It is said that poverty is a whole lifestyle choice, but that itself begins to look for the bigger issue that this motion focused on one issue. It only begins to scratch the surface of poverty. Let's be clear, priority one in the Lincoln Church County Plan is poverty. We have to acknowledge that as the Council, when we wrote the current plan, we had identified poverty as a pressing issue for this Council. As we go forward this motion, dealing with poverty and supporting the vulnerable is and will remain a high priority. Sadly, it will also remain one problem amongst many too many residents. It will be clear that this motion will have a financial consequence in terms of this year and subsequent ones. I would expect there will be a budget pressure that will have to be considered. I can only express my disappointment that the working group enacted by this Council to consider solutions in the Holy Hunger was actually more productive. It was set up by as a motion by full Council to pose solutions to the Council and consider potential budgets that impact on the budget. By passing this motion today, it is a commitment to deliver on holiday hunger and food poverty that we are taking and I shall be recording on a recorded vote so that each of us can have our commitment to that noted or recorded. While this motion is passed today, I would like to pay tribute to all those flinches staff who work tirelessly to deliver services to our most vulnerable and I would like to thank all those people who work in the third sector in our towns and villages like Councilor Banks here who work against the odds of taking action against food poverty. There is much going on out there and I would like anyone to think that this is the only thing that was going to happen over the summer. Dealing with food poverty has no easily deliverable single solution and as we pass these motion I too am all real aware that where there are hungry children, there are hungry parents and probably hungry grand parents too. This motion does address school meals but it just misses those who misqualify. I do not know the flinches, the figures are for flincher but Gordon Brown was saying today there are 800,000 children who just who for whatever reason just missed on qualifying for 300 for free school meals. I would also like to assure members that issues around food poverty have been looked at across this Council. In terms of reporting this decision back to Council, this will be done in the early stages and members will be kept informed as to progress. I will also be asking that this program is evaluated and that the evaluation report is made available to members. I will be consulting as to how any evaluation could be done but I have seen this as an essential element of how we move forward on the whole issue of food poverty and all that said I would like to support the notice of motion. Thank you, Councillor. I have Councillor Madeline Eastwood. Thank you, Chair. I do accept this motion. However, I must say that as part of the administration I am disappointed that this was not raised during the budget setting process and that the process preferred to raise it instead as a notice of motion uncoasted after the event. I reviewed the agenda pack for the budget meeting in February just to check my recollection of the information provided at the time. There was a detailed breakdown of the budget requirements and free school meals at the time was clearly listed as a cost pressure. As we know the agenda pack followed on from workshops and briefings we had as members on the cost pressures going forward and proposed efficiencies. No doubt I will be corrected if I am wrong but I personally do not recollect any questions during those workshops and briefings about provision for holiday hunger. I have also received a summary given of what have been raised by members of the various scrutiny committee meetings which were held to discuss the budget proposals. Whilst many questions were asked by various members there was not one question about the provision of free school meals during school holidays or any other provision to deal with holiday hunger. I really got to wonder why the proposal this notice of motion has left it until now to raise this matter. Nevertheless, I will support this motion and hope the proposed financial support to be given to those who are eligible for free school meals will encourage those parents and other carers who won't have to play by having yet done so to actually register and so attract more desperately needed funding for our schools. Thank you Chair. Thank you. I have Councillor Bill Crease. Thank you Chair. I am speaking in support of this motion but I want to put a personal edge to it. I am of an age with several members in here. I can remember the winter of 1959. My dad was an unemployed minor part-time in a fishing chip shop but because of the bad weather in the winter the fishing chip shops closed and pretty much everything else closed. To keep our house warm I as a six-year-old had to go with my father to the shoreline in Kirchori to pick up spoil from the Francis Colery. We called it Seaco. I was hungry, I was cold and I had to go out and pick Seaco. There is no excuse in a modern society like ours to debate whether or not we should attack child poverty. There is no excuse as a group not to attack child poverty and if we have children who are hungry and flinch in the school holidays it is beyond the pale to not consider supporting those children. I commend the motion. Thank you Councillor. Councillor Gillian Broccoli. Thank you. Thank you Chair. Thank you. I would like to thank the cabinet member for the finalist for committing to accept the motion. I would like to ask if the motion passes will he commit that cabinet will implement the scheme that is demanded. Thank you. I get the commitment absent the motion before. Thank you for that. That was clear. Councillor David Healy. Thank you, Chair. I thank all those speakers because it is a very important issue and I know that it is important that it is just raised. I understand, for example, the passion of those speakers who are very concerned about hungry children and poverty as Councillor Johnson said food poverty is a priority of the Council. We did set up a working party on this and I am disappointed from what I gathered that although there has been a lot of banging of the drum and saying this must happen, I am not aware of anyone and anyone who has spoken today who can actually clarify where the money will come from and I don't mean to be callous or lack compassionate about something that is an absolute need. But last year, we only avoided a section 114 by the skin of our teeth and we do have rising costs all the time. We have a legal obligation to house the homeless and there is a moral imperative with that. We have an obligation with regard to paying for out-of-county placements and in both of these cases homelessness and out-of-county places we are seeing rising numbers and again these are issues that need to be addressed. I am going to vote for the motion of course because there is a moral imperative and I think we have to but I am asking the question when we are going to be faced with a most budget deficit this year and the very real prospects have not been able to balance the books as we did successfully by the skin of our teeth last year. Where does the money come from? Has anyone got any bright ideas? Thank you. Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Betholt, yes, thank you Chair, this has been made to do a motion that is going to cost $250,000 a year, I think that was the sum that Councillor Pank has quoted and again my concerns are some of those that are being expressed already by Councillor Hilly where is this money going to come from? This is just for the summer holiday, I guess the $250,000 that has been quoted. Now we saw this resolution come forward before Christmas and again money was actually found, probably served to pay for the Christmas period and that is understandable. But really speaking, I do agree with what has been said, we have a primary purpose and a primary need to feed the poor and children in particular and I take the points that have been made by Councillor Pank, but this is a responsibility of national government, not local government without respect. The Welsh government did introduce the help and support for such a scheme during COVID and it was meant to be temporary and it was temporary, it was removed and of course we have noticed all that at the time. We were accused of not actually telling people about that but that was actually made known nationally because it was a national government decision in Wales and they were no longer going to be able to support this, nor would they support it. Now the way one or two local authorities, again the debate of the time mentioned this, some of the Labour authorities in South Wales were actually decided to continue with this particular service and that was understandable. But as we know as an authority, there are authorities in Wales far better off at all, both in terms of revenue support, grants, and also in terms of reserves, some authorities have got millions of reserves, we haven't got that. We have to rate reserves in order to pay for the Christmas time and I guess that's where we're going to have to go on this occasion as well and we don't know what those reserves are going to be needed for in the very near future. For example, in the past, you know the teachers raised them paid has not been wholly covered by the government's program and we have to take the schools, you've got to find the money to pay for this and so on. You know, so those are the kind of things that reserves the variable, things which we don't know about to this moment in time will come. Now if we accept this today, I'm sure we will because I think we'll all have to go at the end of the day, this is going to be an ongoing commitment, isn't it? We had it at Christmas time and here it is now for the summer holidays and again I'm sure next Christmas is going to be the same again. So this is going to be an ongoing commitment as I see it because no one will actually stand up and say we're not doing this anymore because we've all got lots of gold, we want to serve these poor children who are in need of food. Let's make no bones about it that this is a responsibility of national government. National governments are actually committed to actually eradicating poverty and child poverty in this country and what's happened to it? Nothing. We've still got it from like a quarter of children are living in food poverty and we know that as a fact. So it's their responsibility, now we can take it on, but I mean the question of America is going to be where is the money coming from? I've heard no suggestions of where this might be found. Members here know of some type of gold under some rock somewhere which we haven't found yet. Please, if there is one, tell us where it is because it's going to be a huge tax to find this money and still have money and reserves to pay for those unexpected events which will come, as we know, we see them every year and how we're going to manage to actually equate that as well. So I have got concerns and they're the similar concerns I've been expressed already. So I'd like saying to somebody else, find the money folks, you know, find it where and I think some suggestions on the paper written on paper quite simply and I as well as letters would be very welcome. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Gina Mabison. Thank you, Chair, and congratulations to you and the Vice Chair on your appointment. Money is a rhetorical question and I have a personal interest. I have written in this chamber before to say that I know what it is to be poor. I have used a food bank. I have been a working single parent. My daughter has benefited from free school meals and free holiday meals as well. In the 1960s, I was at school with starving children who had no money to wear coats in the winter and wore charity boots, stamped BEM, Birmingham evening mail. During the war, my grandmother, a war widow, pawned her wedding ring. The wedding ring I now wear every Friday to feed her five children over the weekend. And during the 1930s, my father and his brothers picked up pieces of coal off the street and sold them to the neighbours for pennies so that they could buy scratchings from the fish and chip shop. Their father, who served in World War I, suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder and was too ill to work. And this is my rhetorical question. Can anybody tell me why we are still talking about starving children in this country in 2024? And if you want to clue, breakfast at the House of Commons this morning started at £26. Ahead, I will be voting for the motion, but what I am asking are answers to some of these questions. Thank you very much. Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Simon Jones, please. Thank you. I will also be supporting this motion. I have been working with French food banks since before I was a Councillor. I hold regular collections in my ward of which the members of the ward are very, very generous in the amounts that they give. But of course, this motion will have a cost associated with it. And let's not beat around the bush. This cost will mean an increase in council tax next year. So I will be calling for a recorded vote so that we can make sure that the people who moved the motion next year can't put leaflets out in by-elections claiming that they tried to reduce council tax when they, in fact, voted for it. So I want these names to be recorded that they are passing a motion now that will affect next year's council tax, which I support. Thank you for that, Councillor. Do I have a second if? Well, there are ten people. Ten people to stand, if there is to be a recorded vote. We've come to go on a bit there. Sorry. We have that, Chair, and Kim. We've got them. Okay. Before we go further, Councillor Richard Jones indicated to speak. Thank you, Chair. When you hear things like it's the responsibility of national governments and it's not a local issue, I don't think any of us actually mean that, do we? Because it's for us to solve. There is no national solution. So we didn't know there isn't any national solutions being offered. Let me put it that way. So we have a moral imperative. We have the moral duty. It's all about money at the end of the day, isn't it? So if we had a spare $250,000, we'd be doing it straight away and there wouldn't be any discussion. When it comes to the Cabinet member, he said that she didn't hear anything coming from the budget. Okay. We didn't put it in. You guys didn't put it in. We need to put it in now. So it needs to be there because we have that moral imperative. There's no point in standing up and saying those types of things. We know it's the right thing to do. So, okay. I'm going to be Chair of Corporate Resources, aren't I? So I'm going to make sure that the first item, and every month it'll be on that, it'll be on as an agenda item, will be to find $250,000 to pay for this. If it comes from reserves, and Paul Johnson said he's going to commit to that, then one of the things that will be on the scrutiny committee of Corporate Resources will be to find that $250,000 so that we can replace it, because we think it's a matter of urgency. We think it's important and we're not going to let it lie right there. So I'll commit to that from all the meetings in Corporate Resources. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor. I have no more names. Any speakers then, please? Councillor, if there are any more speakers then Councillor Pockers has the right to apply us to move the original motion, Chair. Okay. We have no more speakers. Councillor Pockers, please. Yeah, thank you, Chair. Thank you to all Councillors for the cross-party support. I will keep this short because we're obviously in agreement with the aim to address child poverty. What we need now is to see some momentum. We need to see the cabinet leading, the working group, recommencing and to find long-term solutions. What we're talking about here is a short-term solution. So Councillor Jones will not talk about next year's budget and about next year's council tax. We're talking about what we do this year and then we need to look at longer-term solutions. We got you right in the sense, but that isn't an endless part. We can't go on forever, but we need to decide what we can do and not let it drift. So I do thank everyone in this Chamber for supporting this motion. Thank you. So, Chair, we've had the right to reply. Now there can be no other speakers. We need to go to the vote. It's a recorded vote. Chair, ordinarily, I go to everybody else and come to you last. Given the hour, is it okay if I start with you? Yes. And I'm in favour for, thank you. Councillor Bucky. Councillor Michael Pause. Councillor Babbings. Councillor Panbanks. Councillor Bateman. Councillor Vibbie. Councillor Bithall. Councillor Brokley. Councillor Brown. Councillor Carbrie. Councillor Clahedon. Councillor COVID's not with us. Councillor Boudt. Councillor Cupple. Councillor Bill Crease. Councillor Cunnigan. Councillor Rob Davis. Councillor Ron Davis. Councillor Davis Cook. Councillor Dolphin. Councillor C not with us. Councillor Evans. Councillor G. Councillor David Healy. Councillor Gladys Healy. Councillor Hodges left, isn't he? Councillor Andy Hughes. He's gone as well. Councillor David Hughes. Councillor. Paul Johnson. Councillor Christine Jones. Councillor Richard Jones. Councillor Simon Jones. Councillor Fran Lister. Councillor Richard Lloyd. Councillor Mackie. Councillor Madison. Councillor Mannison. We haven't got Alan Marshall either. I missed you. You're silhouetted against the sun, what looks like a very beautiful sunny background. Councillor Hill. Councillor McKewen. Councillor Mullen. Councillor Owen has left us. Councillor Palmer. Councillor Pockhurst. Councillor Pierce. Councillor Michelle Perfect. Councillor Vicki Perfect. Councillor Carroll increase. Councillor David Richardson has gone. Councillor Ian Roberts has moved up to go. Councillor Rose. Councillor Roch. Councillor Silver, let's do a bit. Councillor Scharkross. Councillor Lee. Councillor Swash. Councillor Thieu. Councillor Linda Thomas. Councillor Turton has to go. Councillor Wakeham. Councillor Woolies have to leave. Councillor Rhett. Councillor interjecting. Councillor Eberson. Thank you, Chair. This no sub-motion is entitled Get Home Safe and is about a campaign supported by Unite the Union. Whilst it doesn't arise to the level of personal interest and the process of transparency, I draw attention to my own register of interest. I am indeed a member of Unite the Union. This motion will introduce protection for those thousands of workers across the UK within Flintshire who, after generally more likely to be low income and more likely to be women who were left walking home after the last public transport has left in a position where they are disproportionately likely to be subject to assault and attack. While staff of licensed premises are put at risk after hours, it is basic decency to expect their employer to put in place some basic steps to protect them. Now, most employers already do. Most good employers take good care of their staff and seek to protect them from harm when travelling to or from work when working on social hours. This notice of motion encourages Flintshire to incorporate a reference to the scheme within its licensing policy, something that will likely take full effect from the 2026 review and will seek to endorse the scheme set up by Unite to ensure that workers get home safe. There is no financial cost to the Flintshire County Council in so doing and it will help to protect our residents to protect staff. Thank you very much. Councillor Chris Berthall. Thank you, Chair. The schemes that encourage employers to consider the safety of their staff going to and from their places of work should be viewed in a positive light. The Get Home Safety Scheme is an example of such an initiative. From the Flintshire perspective, it is good to support such initiatives. The licensing policy in itself cannot mandate the participation of premise license holders, however specific reference could be made to when the policy is now included in 2026, subject to consultation with the statutory partners. The purpose of the statement of licensing policy is to provide guidance for new applicants and existing premises license holders as well as defining how the local authority exercises its functions as a licensing authority. The authority is required to publish a reviewed policy statement every five years and must consult as a minimum as the council sees listed in the legislation, regardless of whether a full or interim variation of the policy is proposed. It is important to note that the licensing committee scrutinizes the implementation of the licensing policy. In response to 0.3 of the notice's motion, with respect to the resolution concerning municipal ownership of buses, this is a matter of which whilst government will take forward on a national scale. However, I believe it could benefit our county. If municipal ownership was introduced, of every confidence, the Flintshire will work in partnership to ensure that local requirements and needs are represented.

Thank you, Councillor. Any more speakers, please? Councillor Dauffy. Thank you, Chair. As Councillor Pearson has already stated, the review is in 2026 and it is proposed that the license authority would look at that as a recommendation to outside 2.3 of the policy states, the licensing authority would also draw attention to and is supportive of existing initiatives that are relevant to the licensing. For example, private safe schemes, CCTV coverage of the town centres, proof of aid schemes, pub watch and then there's plenty of others. This notice of motion, yet homestead, could be added to this list when the policy is reviewed in 2026. When all consultations will take place, this will include all county Councillors as they are seen as a front line of licensing for the public to the council. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Glynn Banks, please. Thank you, Chair. It was only to declare that I'm a member of Unite the Union. That's all. Thank you. I don't know if we have to declare. Thank you. Any other speakers? Councillor Christol, for you. I wasn't going to specifically, but some people might be slightly misled by what the aims are of this. There's no cost to a future whatsoever, as Councillor Hussain pointed out and I hope that would remain the case, whether there's municipal buses in the future or not, or in the near future. I think it's interesting to know what actually was achieved in Scotland with examples we were given of East Dumpbarneshire and Glasgow City Council. Nothing like Australia. Glasgow City Council has the most populated area in Scotland, a very high population of 635,000. So there's certainly no comparison between the examples that are being given. What was actually achieved, what was achieved, my understanding is in Scotland, that it was just training for licensed drivers, not free transport home or anything like that, so I think we need to understand that there should be no cost to a future because we can't afford it at all, but what can we actually achieve? And that may well be as much as training for licensed drivers that work after 11pm. Thank you. Councillor Richard Lloyd, thank you, Councillor. Okay, that's just a question to the proposal earlier. Obviously there's no cost for the County Council, but this has got to be enforced, doesn't it, somehow? Obviously, is it enforced by French enforcement officers, same as planning? Obviously, we are shorted to them, but they were full position now with those. But surely there'd be a cost there to enforce it. Thank you, Chair, obviously this is happening at night, so they would have to work late to enforce it, or they'd just rely on people reporting that they haven't paid for the employees left home. Chair, I find might, of course, this isn't a conversation within the Chamber, so Councillor Iveson will have the right of reply, perhaps he would be kind enough to pick up response to that query and his right to reply for the exercise. But we shouldn't have an interchange across the Chamber, Chair, otherwise, this is a formal debate, it's okay? We can do it. I've asked through the debate here, Councillors, after being any more speakers, I think I've exhausted now. We have two more speakers who wish to speak. First of all is Councillor Simon Jones and then Councillor Hilary McQuill, and they will be the last before we go to anybody. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. I represent a rural ward, a lot of the young people in my ward travel some distance to work in the night time in the industry. Do we know if unites have done any studies to see the effect of employment of residents such as mine? Are night time industries such as pubs more likely to not give jobs to people because of the distance that they live from their workplace because obviously the further they live, the more it will cost the employer to send them home and therefore potentially they're less likely to employ those people. So I wonder if the proposal in his reply would like to answer that question. Finally, Councillor Hilary McQuill. That's not a slight on you, Councillor McQuill. >> I just want some clarity. To publicly call for the municipal ownership of buses in order to lower prices and improve service provision, especially for night time and off peak services. And I wondered if the proposal can explain would there be a cost to French on that? Because it means to me there would be a cost as it's a municipal ownership. Thank you. >> Councillor Eberton. >> Thank you very much, Chair. I can reply and tell the speaker. >> Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you to everybody who spoke in this debate. There were, I think, four Councillors who made specific points to pick up later. Councillor Dolphin correctly drew attention to Glasgow and Eastern Vartonshire. In both of those authorities, the Councillors have incorporated this principle into their licensing policy and their licensing scheme and have made specific reference as is proposed that Flint should do. That's not just for drivers but for licensed premises. So pubs primarily, also wider industries like tattoo shops but late night opening is less prevalent in those industries. In response to Councillor Lloyd's point regarding enforcement, this is primarily an employment issue in that whereas licensing, the licensing department might normally receive complaints, for example, about noise from surrounding members of the city. This is not something which a member of the public or a customer of the establishment would necessarily have any knowledge of. It is fundamentally an employment question and in that case it's an issue for workers' trade unions or workers' choose not to be a member of a trade union. There are third party support services such as citizens' advice which are able to give limited advice. However, as Councillor Lloyd will be well-versed, trade unions have specific rights to represent workers at work and Flint for people's voice would encourage every worker to join their trade union. Councillor JONES have asked whether the Unite Union have done any employability studies for rural areas. I fear that he might be better directing that question to the union rather than to me. I'm sure they'll be happy to assist him and Councillor McQuill asked about the final point of the notice of motion which is to call for the municipal ownership of buses. There is absolutely no cost of lynching calling for the municipal ownership of buses. At the moment, the bus industry in the UK is profitable. Private companies run buses because there is money in it for them. Where that profit is currently being extracted to shareholders, often overseas in the cases of the largest operators, that money should be reinvested to provide public transport for the public not for private profit. There is profit there which quite rightly should be used to benefit ordinary residents of Flincher. There is no cost to us doing exactly what the private operators are doing but using the excess funds within this system to reinvest in public transport. That gets us to a cost-neutral model and the end result is better public transport for the residents of Flincher. That is something that we would wholeheartedly support and I would hope that support would be echoed across this Chamber. I hope I have picked up on all points, I commend the motion to the Chamber and I hope to attract support for it. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Councillor. I think that concludes the debate now. Councillor did. Yes. With this being a notice of motion, would I need to declare an interest with me being a licensee holder? This would impact upon your business is my understanding, Councillor Salvesta, yes. I would suggest that you don't take post in the vote. That is a person of recognition. Thank you. For that we will move to the vote. It is a question, yes. Are we voting on this as mandatory or is it going to be supportive when it comes in 2026? There's a difference between the two. In terms of what? At this stage, if we wanted to include it within our statement of licensing policy, as Councillor McLACHLAN will know, we have to consult on it. We would not want at this stage to be seen to be prejudging the results of any consultation. By insisting that notwithstanding the results of the consultation, we are going to put it in any way. However, I understand that Councillor Hibbitson has spoken at some length with the licensing officer, the licensing manager, and she is quite content to include it within the next review. Essentially, we will be putting this into the consultation and we will be seeking views on that. I think we could probably indicate that we are predisposed towards including this within the rules, subject to whatever might come from the consultation. Any more than that would be to risk prejudging the results of the consultation. That is on the statement of licensing policy, of course, on the issue of calling for the mandatory, calling for the municipal ownership of buses. That is something that we would just lobby whilst government court. I think that explains the position. And I did have a chat about that beforehand. If I understood correctly, then, if I may say correct me if I am wrong, Councillor Hibbitson indicated you were satisfied and Councillor Dolphin, we are correct. You really are the last speaker, no offence to you but yes, the last speaker. One of our family members is a licensee. Do we have to declare an interest? In terms of declaring an interest? Sorry, this can be quite a convoluted question. I know the circumstances in relation to Calcins and Sylvester, so it was relatively quick answer. When you say a family member, a close family member, they own or run an establishment or they are an employee. I would suggest that that is a personal and prejudicial interest as well. Obviously for you to decide, but you, the relatively short period to assess the interest, my suggestion is a personal and prejudicial. Okay, well that's a nice question. I looked at you. Councillor Dolphin, Mr Chair, I don't know if you need any more. The question that I am asking about mandate of advice I have received is we cannot. The licensee policy in itself cannot mandate the participation of premises. I think that needs to be clear in the mind of people as they want. Thank you. That's correct. My understanding is that we can't mandate it but we have agreed that we would include it within the consultation and I think when Councillor Rosetta Dolphin stood up and was saying where it might be included within the policy, I can see Councillor Dolphin nodding. I think he was perfectly satisfied that that would be appropriate and that that would be what he was seeking to achieve. Yep, pretty much. I think it's just turning an interest. Well, that ends the debate, Councillors. Can we move it to the vote, please? All in favour? Any against or extensions? One, two, three, four. Against or abstentions, Chair, which we've been taking. I went for against then. My apologies. Two against, Chair. Three against. Three against, abstentions. That is substantially carried, yes. I'll end it up then. So we move then on to item four and questions. So the first question from Councillor SRI. Yes, um, agenda item four, question from Councillor San Swash, Swash, thank you, pardon. Councillor Swash. Ah, yes. Thank you, Chair. In September 2023, this Council passed a notice of motion to create a reporter road landlord tool and a road landlord checker. More than six months of past since this was decided but no such tools have yet been launched. What progress has been made to date on their creation and when will the tools be launched? Thank you. Thank you, Chair. The road landlord checker will be introduced as part of the portfolio Citizen Portal function which will offer more self-service options to use it. Information has already been sent to the software developers. Work on the Citizen Portal will commence in earnest once the implementation of the new case management system has been fully completed. The information that is intended for publication on the checker will also need to be considered by the data protection team and legal services to ensure compliance with all relevant legislation. You will undertake to keep the member updated or progress for the development of the system. It is anticipated that this work will be ready within six months. There's already information about renting in the private sector on French Accounting Council's website. However, further information will be added to these pages while road landlords are the end of June 2024. In addition, Rent Smart Wales website provides helpful advice to those renting in the private sector. Thank you, Chair. Councillor SWASH. So, Councillor SWASH has the right to ask the supplementary question, should he wish to? It must arise out of either the original question or out of the answer that's been given, Chair. Councillor BRIAN. Thank you, Chair. I thank the cabinet member for his response, but I do note that the response only actually refers to half of the question, which is the road landlord checker, and it doesn't actually make any reference to the reporter road landlord tool, which I think should be the easier of the two of those options. So, could I ask what progress has been made on the reporter road landlord tool and when that will be launched? Thank you. It's a question to the to the portfolio holder, Chair. Yes, it is. Councillor BRIAN. I understand the Chair that will be added to the fire when the portal is open. Can we do you know what I'm saying? I think I can see the chief officer indicating that he'll give an answer in writing to supplement that, which has been given by the portfolio holder. Is that good? Would you come to us, Wash? Thank you very much. Next question from Councillor ALLASTA-Ibudson. Thank you, Chair. To ask the cabinet member for planning and public protection, if he will publish for each of the last three years, the number of stop notices issued by the Council in response to development without permission, the number of temporary stop notices issued by the Council, the number of occasions where work requiring planning permission, which has not been granted, has continued after the submission of a retrospective planning application, and prior to the determination of this application, and the number of temporary stop notices issued in these cases. Thank you. Councillor BRIAN, please. It's very long with the question, and there's very long winded answer. Yes, and again, the response is on members' debts in front of them. So, the questions have been answered, and hopefully they will suffice. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Happy with that, Councillor Hton. You have a copy on it? Thank you, and I'm happy to take the cabinet member's lengthy response as read. Thank you. I would like to thank the cabinet member for providing the figures. Members have no doubt had a chance to look at the figures, and on the back of the paper in front of them, the specific answers to each of the points. The number of stop notices issued by the Council in response to development without permission, zero, the number of temporary stop notices issued by the Council, zero, and these figures for each of the last three years. The number of occasions where work requiring planning permission, which has not been granted, has been continued after the submission of a retrospective application, in each of the last three years, 22, 34, and 19 occasions, and the number of temporary stop notices issued in these cases, Council, zero. I'm sorry to have to stop you. These are supplementary questions, are they not? Yes, the information, I think, is quite... The finances of respect, sir. You've had a good innings on this this afternoon. Can we call it a day? Okay, well, I will cut to the chase then. Does the cabinet member consider that the zero use of stop notices and temporary stop notices is acceptable? Does the cabinet member consider that that represents best value for the Council? Does the cabinet member consider that that access of the Karen's to would be violators of planning regulations, and will the planning with the cabinet member commit to meet with the residents of my ward, who are present tonight, after a failure to wish you were to stop notice by 10 for account, a 10 for stop notice by French account, a council has led to effectively unrectifiable damage adjacent to their properties. Who is the cabinet member, the council member. Again, it's council a bit thought. As I understand it, Jan, again, I have to have long discussions with officers. The zero results that has been referred to in the answers have been in other authorities in Wales and also in England as well. They're very rarely used and for good reason as well as the answers explained. We have to work with the framework of planning policy as laid down by Welsh government and in England and the English government and obviously we are fairly restricted in what we can do and what we cannot do. And again, I would defer members to the council's policy on enforcement as a whole paper on this, which was agreed to in 2019. If the members like to read that, I think they'll be more acquainted with the system and the way that it operates and has to operate. It will be something for reviewing some time and of course we can look at this again, but ultimately we are following our own policy which indeed follows the advice given in the Welsh manual. So we are in line with other authorities in Wales in this particular respect. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Councillor Biffle. I think now that brings this debate to a conclusion, answers to questions have been given. No vote required. Call the meeting closed. Thank you all. (clapping)

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