Transcript

Morning Chairman Good morning and welcome to the first meeting of the overview and scrutiny management board for the new council term. My name is councillor Philip Roberts. I am the chairman of the board, Cain Parkinson, vice chairman. The board is also in attendance. Streaming arrangements. Can I remind you that the audio visual feed of this formal meeting is being broadcast live via the county council's website. And all your comments will remain accessible online as the meeting remains, recording remains on the council website. And with this in mind, I would like to welcome members of the public and press watching this live. Welcome to the following executive councillors and executive support councillors who are attending our meeting today. Welcome to the following members of the corporate leadership team who are present today. Welcome to the following members of the corporate leadership team who are present today. Debbie Barnes OBE, Andrew Crookham, Deputy Chief Executive and Executive Director of Resources. There was no fire drill planned this morning. In the event of a fire alarm warning, we need to leave the council chamber through the doors behind you and leave the building through the reception into the front car park. We will then need to wait in the car park for further instructions. Devices and loops can remind everyone to ensure their mobiles, laptops and iPads are in silence for the duration of the meeting. Also, when invited to speak, can you please ensure that you switch on your microphone? Otherwise those attending the meeting via Teams and members of the press and public listening to our meeting online will not be able to hear you. Please be aware that you need to speak directly into the microphone to be heard. The hearing loop is now activated. Request to speak will be collated by the vice chairman. If you wish to speak during the meeting, can you please raise your hand and the vice chairman will make a note. We will try to ensure that everyone has the opportunity to ask questions, make contributions. Therefore, I would appreciate contributions to be succinct and concise and also ask that you would indicate early when you wish to speak. We will now move on to the formal agenda. Apologies for absence. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman. We have apologies from Paul Brewster and we'll for this meeting only. Declarations of members' interests. Members of the board are reminded that you only need to declare any relevant interests which have not been declared on your Declaration of Procurement Interests form. Do any members wish to declare an interest? I think that's a no. Minutes of the meeting held on the 17th of March 2025. This is to confirm and sign the minutes from the last meeting of the board on the 17th of March 2025 as a correct record. Those can be found on pages 5 to 10 of the agenda pack. Do I have a proposer? That's the Matthews, and a seconder. That's a Katton. That's fine. We will now vote on the minutes. those in favor those against any abstentions thank you those minutes agreed as correct and accurate and accurate record as this is the first meeting of the overview and scrutiny management board in this new council team I'd like to begin by expressing my sincere thanks to all those members for the confidence placed in me to serve as chairman it is an honor and a responsibility I undertake with strong sense of purpose and commitment scrutiny plays a vital role in ensuring that our council decision-making remains transparent accountable and the best interests of the people of Lincolnshire I am confident at this board with its collective experience and insight will continue to approach its work with integrity diligence and willingness to challenge where appropriate I look forward to working constructively with each of you and with the officers to uphold the standards of good governance and ensure that scrutiny continues to support effective service delivery and value for our residents I'm also taking this opportunity to remind members of the two upcoming induction sessions pertinent to our role of scrutineers first date is tomorrow 30th of May from 10 30 for the scrutiny chairs here and the county offices and the second is on Monday the 30th of June on 10 a.m. via teams on questioning skills if you've not already booked them please speak to Tom Crofts following today's meeting I've no further announcements to make today I ensure efficient use of our time or like presenters to keep their report introductions brief to allow ample time for discussions and consideration on all items executive council announcements are there any executive council announcements from council the Matthews counts that Tom cuttin are there any chief officer announcements from Debbie Barnes chief executive Andrew cookham Crookham deputy chief executive director of resources no Tom are there any call-ins to consider non-received chairman Tom have we received any councilors calling for action non-received okay that'll thought geological disposal facility community partnership the pre-decision scrutiny can be found between pages 11 and 46 of the agenda this report supports the executive's review of Lincoln County Council's continued role in the federal thought geological disposable facility and this GDF citing process it outlines a proposal relevant policies and potential local impacts to inform it is on it to inform a decision on whether the council should remain involved as a relevant principal local authority or withdrawal and in the current site exploration in Lincolnshire the executive are due to consider this report for a decision on the third of June 2025 our actions in terms of the input requests from the board are the members of the overview and scrutiny board management board consider the report and determine where the members support for the recommendation to the executive as set out on page 14 and agree that the board's comments be passed to the executive in relation to this item this report will be presented by Justin Brown assistant director of growth Andy Gutherson executive director of place is also in attendance for this item before we begin with this item I would like to set out how this item will be handled as we have a number of speakers the running order for this will be as follows Justin Brown assistant director for growth will introduce the report right okay an alteration to that Andy Gutherson assistant oh hold on Andy Gutherson will introduce the report I will then invite David fanning chairman of the community partnership who is in attendance to make a statement you will have three minutes to address the board I will then invite board members to ask any clarifying questions at their discretion the next speaker is Seth kybird CEO of nuclear waste services you'll also have three minutes to address the board I'll then invite board members to ask any clarifying questions six the next speaker in attendance is Mike crooks chairman of go tech you'll also have the opportunity to address the board for up to three minutes I'll then invite board members to ask any clarifying questions following for my guest speakers I would also like to invite councillors who are non-board members to address the board regarding any concerns or comments from guest speakers we'll then take a statement from councillor Bailey Robinson who represents Saltfleet and the coats and councillor Reuben Robinson who represents Mablethorpe this follows a request made by councillors Robinson and Robinson to be present and to address the board today's meeting visiting councillors will be allowed to speak for three minutes but not to ask questions then we'll have opportunity for board members to ask any clarifying questions to the visiting councillors this will then be followed by debate by the board that will consider and comment on the report and highlight any recommendations or further actions for consideration by the executive officers will be able to answer questions from the board members as part of their wider debate however there'll be no further involvement from members of the public and non-members of the board doing this part of the item at the end of the debate we will consider and vote on the actions required by the board now over to you Justin sorry Justin Nick and even thank you chairman apologies Justin isn't with us today he's gone down with bronchitis and he's struggling to speak so well placed to be able to give you the detail that's in the report the report provides a history of our involvement as Lincolnshire County Council sets out some of the key considerations and frames a recommendation based on our current transformed into the community partnership we previously made a decision or the executive made a decision that our representation on that working group and being an integral part of that activity since that date I think it's worth highlighting that the previous discussions that took place prior to that formal in in keeping with other activities that take place I think I'll also highlight to you that all of the activities that have been undertaken should all be read and locations of the geological disposal for the facility are does the level of public concern and opposition render our under need to have a greater understanding pointless in the context of that public sentiment is now significant for members to make a decision and thirdly could further work be justified to better understand the implications of a geological disposal facility and create a set of control I'll return to those questions when I wrap up another important context in relation to the need for a geological disposal for surgical a long-term disposal solution for that waste about 20 years ago the committee on radioactive waste management recommended that long-term underground solution that was translated into a white paper in 2008 which established that the recommended approach was a geological disposal facility it was a safe technology it would bring economic social and environmental benefits it was cost effective it's worth noting that since that date a number of other countries have also explored and meant to geological disposal as an appropriate solution Finland I believe are about to open their facility Sweden have plans approved France are exploring utilization of similar geology identified a willing community Switzerland have chosen a site and Japan is seeking a willing community there are a range of other countries also in that process discussed in the context of the uncertainty that it creates I've mentioned the geology the UK has a variety of that other communities and other countries are looking at similar geology in addition though to the geology being the starting point for where you locate a facility there will be a range of other engineered all of the standards that would be expected to met would be achieved that relates to the underground storage element the other aspect of the scheme is that the needs to has the most direct impact on the local community the report provides detail in terms of the original approach was intended to look at utilizing the federal thought and both carbon capture schemes hydrogen production schemes of both effectively gazumped the ability of NWS to utilize that site that resulted in earlier this year that the identification of a wider area focus for a potential surface site it is a larger area for the area of focus but the ultimate size of the facility that on the refinery site approximately 250 acres so the ultimate size of the facility and the potential impacts on the facility are unlikely to be different than was originally envisaged the community partnership that was established again is a policy requirement and again probably David as the chair of that is better place to answer direct questions in terms of the role of the community partnership the community partnership must have a relevant principal local authority sitting on the partnership both East Lindsay and Lincolnshire County Council have fulfilled that role East Lindsay withdrew from that role earlier in the year leaving Lincolnshire County Council as the directly an advocate of the proposal One of the key issues which obviously drives most of the local concerns in respect of the than where we are currently in the development of the activity That has always been identified as a particular requirement and applies equally to other communities that are in this same situation The community partnership has always indicated that there should be some element of public input into decisions about whether there should be some further engagement with the public to inform that There is a high level of vociferous local objection to the proposal Don't intend to recap and the weight that they give to each of those Given the opposition that does exist locally There are some key questions that need to be asked about the approach that's been taken to date and whether that has been effective and appropriate And whether if that was done in a different way that could be a greater understanding not necessarily economic benefits to accrue from this type of proposal As any developer would they make the case for the proposal to an area that suffers from high levels of unemployment high levels of deprivation and particularly impacts of seasonality of jobs The report also details the potential for significant additional infrastructure again don't intend to look to facilitate those those improvements to the area And if I conclude Don't I don't underestimate the day-to-day impact and the concerns that have been raised by local residents They are largely matters that have been presented to whether that information has shown there is an opportunity to potentially look at whether that information could be presented differently Analyzed differently So I'd return to the three questions I posed which executive and the decision that the executive need to make Is Lincolnshire County Council significantly better or suitably informed to understand the full implication to professional view is no to that question Does the level of public opposition render understanding our position doing more to members to determine which weight to give to those different views and opinions And if in respect of that there was further work that it was felt was appropriate Could Lincolnshire County Council utilize that in a way that they became non-negotiable requirements for NWS to actually deliver against And again always having the ability and aspects of this that can help inform the committee's decision Thank you Thank you Andy We'll come back to you later with questions Speaker 1 Speaker 1 I'd like to invite David Fanning, Chairman of the Community Partnership to address the Board for up to three minutes Thank you for the opportunity I speak in particular for its community members, all of whom live or work in the search area They're decent, concerned people who've been ready to challenge questions For those who don't know me, after nearly 40 years of public service I remain a champion for the community and non-profit sector My focus is on getting the right result for the people and places within the search area This statement reflects discussions and insights from the partnership's activities Which really boil down to three key points We've heard the concerns of people who live closest to the proposed service facility, loud and clear But we also hear from people who desperately want investment in public services And have met families who are concerned about education, training and future job prospects A GDF is a multi-generational project And we haven't really heard yet the voice of young people's information and misunderstanding And that's regrettable The partnership has used its local knowledge, community connections and engagement To identify questions about the GDF sighting process And it's frustrated that information and expert knowledge has not been more available sooner In reality, most people don't know how a GDF would be constructed Or why NWS is so interested in this area We learned a lot from fact-finding visit to the British Geological Survey As well as the French underground laboratory Where we met with local people and subject experts That was illuminating and I recommend it to anybody who's interested We also had a detailed briefing on the state of coastal defences by the Environment Agency And third, the test of public sentiment There's a clear need to end speculation The question is to live close, it's the air of focus Whatever the council decides The GDF sighting process could have a part to play In securing much needed investment in public services and infrastructure And that's simply a fact If there's to be a test of public sentiment I urge the council to consider how local people could be involved Who disenfranchises and who is disenfranchised There are quiet voices and not everybody is able to vote Finally, and if I could just take a couple of seconds It's important to me to put on record until it's fully concluded Thank you for this time and for listening Thank you I'd like to invite members of the board to ask any follow-up questions In relation to the speaker's statement Councillor Dyer Councillor Dyer Thank you very much, Chairman Thank you for the two presenters Just presenting your reports just then Just two questions really Mainly came from your comments But Andy you might be able to help In respect to coastal defences and the support provided to the Environment Agency What are the findings so far If the GDF were to go ahead What funding would be available for the Environment Agency In respect to the flood defences But consequently, if the scheme were not to go ahead What would the impact of that be on the Environment Agency The Environment Agency and this council lead local flood authority On making sure that the coast is defended well into the future And then my second question Which came towards the end of your statement actually Was the test of public support Do we know at this stage how that would be conducted Would it be going into a polling station as you would an election Or would that just be members of the community invited to turn up to a village hall and vote What do we know at the moment about how that would be carried out Because I think that was an important point that you made And it's making sure that if the council were to go to a test of public support How would we make sure that that process is available to everybody in the community And I think something that you mentioned towards the start of your speech Was young people and the voices of young people And we all know in the UK to vote you have to be 18 For a test of public support would that be open to younger people within the community Rather than those that are just registered electors If you could please provide more detail on that Because if the committee were to move to a test of public support today Actually what that entails and how that support would be tested I think is a critical question And unless I've missed it within the report That information isn't within the report today So straight away I feel quite uncomfortable with moving forward with a test of public support Without this information because essentially we could be providing a blank check To officers and officials and how that's carried out Thank you Chairman Thank you With regards to the question about the coastal defences I am not technically competent to respond I think your council officers are far better placed But the presentation, the briefing we had from the Environment Agency Really brought home to us their concern about the state of the defences And the relative urgency with which they need to be addressed That this would not, that my understanding is that the GDF is a silver bullet But it could be part of a solution So that's what we have learned Regarding the test of public sentiment There is guidance in policy and there are options Andy Gutherson mentioned processes that other countries have been through And the mechanisms used haven't necessarily been a straightforward vote of people on the electoral register Not all of them able to vote and young people simply don't have that kind of voice In other countries there has been something closer to a deliberative democracy process And the reputable, credible ways of doing that That enable the whole spectrum of local public opinion To be heard and all parts of the community So it wouldn't take much, in my opinion For the council to consider what some of those alternatives would be Should you move towards a test of public sentiment And I don't think it would take too much to set up a process Other than simply electoral register Thank you David Thank you Councillor Dyer for your question Could we have a question from Councillor Dilks To David Fanning Thank you Chairman Yeah I was a member of the former On the council when it came up in 2021 It's been four years sort of looking at it I represent an area in the deep south of the county So a long way away from this site So I understand the, I do know the area roughly However, from what Andy said and colleagues have said Clearly the ground site has changed From what we were looking at over three or four years And now it's, is it actually still Thedlethorpe? I don't think it is I get the sense that it's not But what I really want to know is Has this, has the site moved What's, is there a different impact on local communities To, if we were looking at the same original site So has the impact increased to local communities It would have been helpful if we'd had maps That we could have seen That we could have seen And I appreciate there is a, a poor map in the, in the papers But it doesn't really help, tell anybody anything So, so that's my question, thank you David I think, announced earlier this year is a greenfield site And the, the old gas terminal was clearly a brownfield site The impact on, on local communities Is, is not dissimilar People who are living closest to Where the construction work would happen The access roads would, and, and, and, railway connection Would, would, would go through Are going to be affected in, in the same way The question is, uh, to what extent, uh, there is clarity Now, about what those impacts are What the risks are, uh, uh, and, and how any risks would be mitigated Uh, and, and, uh, I think it's entirely understandable That the local community would be aggrieved, uh, at, uh, the, the, the prospect Of, of the facility, uh, appearing, uh, uh, so, uh, but I, I, I think the, the, the discussion Has to be, and, and our responsibility from, for the, uh, uh, the community partnership Is what we've been doing Thank you, Councillor Dilks I just want to come back, thank you Um, I, I, I, I know the Thedlethorpe site, um, or I, I did, I went as a journalist In the early 70s, um, on the gas coming in, um, on the Thedlethorpe site So I know that site How far away is the current site, the, the, the new site that has suddenly popped up? How far away is that? It's a matter of a few miles A few miles? Yeah How many miles? Uh, exactly, I couldn't tell you Uh, but it, but it, it, it's not, it's not that far It's a little bit further inland Thank you Thank you Councillor Finlay Your question to Yeah, um, I've just picked up on, uh, I was gonna ask a similar sort of thing to Councillor Dyer Uh, regarding, uh, public involvement Because obviously the site in policy is the key part of this If it's a willing community, then I think the community needs to have an input Now, when you read through the report, there's always these positives and positives and how fantastic it is And I get that And if, but, if NWS are willing to invest, along with the government, up to 53 billion pound Then, and this has been going on for four years The way I see it is, obviously, people don't know whether it's coming or not People are arms up, you know, we're all thinking, is it coming or not, I don't want it, I do want it And you read the information about all the positives, what it's for But at no point do you read in clear, bold indication of best case scenario You get that, you don't get worst case scenario And people are fearing, thinking, what if there was a major incident And not one bit of this report, or anything I read, you have to go online and search And my concern is that, why are they not telling you the worst case scenario if there was an incident And why have they not reached out to every single letterbox in Lincolnshire If they're willing to invest 53 billion pound into this project Surely, a small, tiny proportion of that should be made Given, you know, given a questionnaire, or an information leaflet And even supply them all with a return envelope And allow every single resident in this county A decent period of time to be given every little bit of best case, worst case scenario Like I say, worst case, we don't know And a return envelope, giving them the opportunity Because as we know, postal votes work, as Councillor Di alluded to Postal votes do work People prefer postal votes They can sit at home, they can look at it, drop it in an envelope And then a post bolt So I really do believe that giving every single person in the county Not just in a certain radius Every single person this affects in Lincolnshire Because ultimately, we in this chamber represent every single person in Lincolnshire So that's where I believe we should be with it Every letterbox should be filled And the worst case scenario should be made clear to everybody Thank you, Councillor Finlay David As I say, I think it's regrettable that we haven't had the information and access to expert opinion More and sooner But we have had conversations within the community partnership with the NWS safety expert And a number of other experts Independent as well as NWS And I think the safety argument hasn't yet been fully exposed to public challenge And believe that that will happen So it's easy to catastrophize And I wouldn't downplay the risk of dealing with nuclear waste But it's about how that nuclear waste is packaged How the GDF is engineered Fared into the GDF facility And I think people just haven't had the answers yet To some of the questions and concerns that they've had So I think it's very fair to raise them But I think we don't know enough yet And if the council decides to stay in this process for long enough To ask some of those questions I would hope that NWS would be able to answer some of those questions very quickly And to give I don't believe there could ever be a cast iron guarantee But it's about risk and risk management and all those mitigations And we were just starting to get into the Or underneath those issues That we haven't been able to get to that point earlier Thank you David Councillor Brooks Thank you Chair I've just got a couple of questions I'm really disappointed that this process hasn't been fully transparent from the onset It could have been done a lot different Have we got a survey on how this will impact the tourism on the coast? And also the train line I'm assuming that won't be for public use It will just be just for the nuclear waste David Thank you I would love to be able to say we've had all of those impact assessments We haven't yet I'm sure NWS will be able to More clearly than I would be able to Thank you David Any other questions? To David? Right, okay I would like to invite Seth Kybird, CEO of Nuclear Waste Services To address the board for three minutes Thank you Good morning and thank you for the opportunity to speak I'm Seth Kybird, I'm the Chief Exec of Nuclear Waste Services We are part of the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority So our job as a government agency Is to manage and clean up the legacy of nuclear in this country One of our core responsibilities as we've heard Is to find a suitable site and a willing host community for the GDF To take the UK's most hazardous radioactive waste And today this is about continuing that involvement in the process First thing I'll say is whatever your views on nuclear As was said earlier We've been a nuclear country since the 1950s We've benefited from low carbon electricity investment and jobs But it has left behind a legacy of waste to deal with And it is the government's position In line as we've heard with kind of best case precedent around the world That the best way to do that is a deep geological disposal But doing nothing is not an option But crucially the policy and the approach is to do that with and not to a local community And that's why the siting process is about the location and the geology But also the community and the willing host So our job is to work in partnership with local communities Sharing information, answering questions And progressing only where there is interest and support And as the officer's report notes The Canadian example is similar It took them many years to build up that information and trust with communities And that's why I think the main point I'll get across here Is this process does take time This is not something that we can come out with all the answers at once And the point is we're trying to work quite openly Developing our ideas and the approach with the communities We've talked a little bit about the impact By participating communities help to shape this infrastructure project And it could be transformational for the local economy And we've been committed to working with you, with employers, with educators To ensure that the jobs that created a big majority of those go to local people So the GDF would bring significant investment We've heard about transport, flood defence and other important infrastructure Which we believe will benefit local people, education industry, local business And we're already working to shape these in partnership with the community And with your officials To make sure they meet the needs of the county And as we've talked about A community This is why we're here A community can withdraw at any point Before the test of public supports And nothing moves forward without that consent of the community And we can choose, you can choose to do that next week But we believe that if we do that We will miss out on the opportunity to obtain some really significant benefits for the county So we believe that this area has a real potential to host a GDF And we hope and ask that you continue engaging with us on that Thank you Thank you, Seth Any questions? Councillor Dye, can you please make sure to the actual speaker Thank you Yes, no, thank you for that I know whilst you were making your report That you're having to flick through a lot of pages And I think given the size of the decision that the committee is scrutinising today Would it be possible if you've got more to say Rather than three minutes worth the chairman to allow that Because I noticed you flicking through the pages And I just thought I'd ask if you wanted to say more I have some questions for you as well But I don't think three minutes probably was enough time Given what you had on your paper there Well, thank you for that Yeah, it's a short time for such a complex subject I think a lot of the information is contained in the report So I'd suggest if you're happy we go to questions And then use that opportunity to flesh out the details Okay Chairman, I'm just going to repeat the questions really But in respect to the community partnership You mentioned flooding, NWS You mentioned flooding there But it was very brief And flood defences What support would NWS be providing the community Or the Environment Agency If it were to go ahead in respect to the flood defences? So what would it be To develop the GDF We clearly need to put in place flood defences The first step in that would be engaging a study By the Environment Agency So that's the early step to look at what the requirements are for that area So it would be We'll be doing it because we would be developing the GDF But it would be It would be done early in the process And everyone will get the benefit of what that study showed Chairman, if I may I'm assuming you're in a position to be able to say How much money specifically you'd be able to spend on both those studies But also in actually putting in place those defences Have you got a figure that you could detail to a committee today? So I think in terms of the There's a number of elements to it So in terms of the first part of your question I think the approximate spend would say about 9 million on those studies They're quite intensive It takes a lot of time to do them In terms of what that actually We wouldn't know the answer to the second part of your question Until we'd been through those studies As in how much it would actually cost Thank you Councillor Dyer Thank you Councillor Dyer Councillor Dilks Would you like to put your question to Sam? Yes, thank you I certainly support my colleague Councillor Dyer I was going to suggest that we did lift the standing orders To allow you to speak for longer And of the speakers Because of the gravity of the decision about to be made But my question And I think we've solved it by You know With the question time But the I'm presuming that you believe That the site that You know The site that's in question Could be The best and safest Repository for This hazardous waste in the country Yeah? And what I'm asking is If you believe that And if the council was minded to Carry on With the process Being part of it How long would it be Before we actually get an answer? Because I do take what colleagues say That You know There is We've already had four years How long is it going to take? And we knew at the start of the process It was going to take years Before we got to a final But when would we get that final answer And say Yes We think You know You think this is the best And safest place for it Thank you Thank you So In terms of how we're moving forward With the process We're Our approach As is laid out in the policy And as explained earlier Is to look at a number of locations So we're still looking for example In West Cumbria And we're looking at sites there So It's not the case that we have decided This is the only place for it And that's And all kind of All our eggs are in this basket We're taking forward a number of areas In terms of this area I think it was Again Going back to what was said There's some good I can't say right now This is the best This is the safest But there's some really good indications When we talk about the geology And we mainly get that From a lot of international precedent At NWS We work very closely With lots of European And the Canadians as well Lots of European countries Because this is a complex area And we need to get it right So learning from each other Is absolutely critical And the geology we see around here Is closest to actually What we see in France as well As I think Andy said So A lot of You know That's a good indication So that's where we are right now We haven't put our eggs in one basket But we see a lot of good signs About this area From a geological point of view In terms of the timing I'm probably going to disappoint you A little bit with the answer If you look at the Canadian example They took their time on it They took around 15 years In terms of engaging With communities All the way through The reason for that Is we're making a choice here As a nation About a piece of infrastructure That's going to last for tens Hundreds of thousands of years We need to take the time To get it right And not rush that So there's a number of steps It's very frustrating When you come into this And you kind of want to get on And make decisions And I've certainly felt that Coming into the job recently But We do need to do We do need to take it carefully We need to do the science properly The next step would be boreholes If we were to continue We would start to do A deeper level of characterisation Looking at kind of the Looking more detail at the geology But we wouldn't really be doing that Until the 2030s So this is a long game I think we would probably say The back end of the 2030s Is by the time We'd be making the final choice Thank you Seth Thank you And thank you Councillor Dilks Any other questions? Councillor Collier Would you like to Put your question to Seth Thank you Yes thank you I just wonder if there are people In these areas And we are talking from Grimsby to Skegness With the rail line Going through as well Involves a lot of people Are they really aware Of how long this investigation Is going to go on? The stress levels For the people It just feels like You're putting money Before people here So I think When we've done I think we've done over 200 events In the community To try and explain this And we are always very clear About the timeline The timeline's laid out It's repeated in the papers I think what's interesting is And we've talked a little bit About the policy And how we've set the policy up The policy does mean That we are We're not developing this Like a In the way some infrastructure Gets developed Which is it kind of happens In a kind of Behind closed doors You get all your answers You know where your access routes are You know all the answers And you come out And you put it on the table And everyone can engage straight away The policy is designed to do this Much more out in the open So these things develop So the good thing about that Is that there is more transparency People get the chance to challenge And we've heard that From the community partnership I suppose you could argue One of the challenges with that Is exactly what you're saying That uncertainty is live And goes on for a while But I suppose it's the trade-off Between doing things transparently That makes it like that I would You know I don't believe We're putting money ahead of people Because the whole way The policy is developed Is very heavily geared towards Being out in the open But also giving people The test of public support So the policy more than anything Is really focused on that consent And a willing community The downside of that As you pointed out Is a long period Of working it through Thank you Thank you, Seth Councillor Brooks Would you like to put your question To Seth Kybird Thank you Thank you, Chair Why wasn't it transparent From the start It seems like things Was hidden Like for the first year And it was leaked My other question is You say transport Transforming the local economy I think I do agree with you Because I think It will totally destroy Tourism in Skegness Borough And all coastal areas Because nobody wants to Holiday next to a nuclear waste site Let's be honest Also, what is the worst case scenario If something happens With the site Or the train that's coming I'm assuming nobody No residents Or anything allowed to use the train It is just purely For the nuclear waste Thank you Okay In terms of transparency The policy requires The local council To be To be Invited To invite us in Sorry Us to invite to get together And start working together If it's felt That there wasn't Enough transparency Right at the start That's a shame But I think that was covered By Andy And the way these things develop Since then We're absolutely trying To be transparent Which is part of the challenge We have I suppose But we have As I said before 200 events To try and give that transparency We have tried to give To try to bring experts To talk to people And not just experts Who work for us But experts who are independent But I did listen to what You know What David said about You know Has there been enough of that And if we continue We'll certainly learn from that I think the On the tourism It's a fair challenge We know Yeah we know that You know That has been one of the concerns That has been raised with us I think there's some I think if we were to stay in That's something we would We would keep talking And working with There are some interesting Precedents here actually On the west coast You have Sellafield Which is one of the biggest Nuclear sites in Europe Right next Right next to the The Lake District And along And you know It almost surrounds it If you visit Sellafield And they have managed to have In common That hasn't damaged tourism In the same You know Badly You know People still travel to the Lake District So there are There are different precedences And learnings We could take from that In terms of the worst case As I think again It was said before I think it's absolutely right You can't sit and guarantee Nothing will ever Go wrong with anything I think I don't think that's what you're asking Part of the reason it takes so long To do this Is because it is so heavily regulated Regulated not by us But by kind of The independent nuclear regulator The ONR And we're looking at precedence For what is done elsewhere So internationally And internationally What's really interesting Is there's an absolute consensus That the safest way To deal with this Is through the Is through a deep geological repository And that's uniform across Across Europe And North America On the transport side On the transport side My previous job I was actually involved In the transport These sort of materials All I can say Again You can't ever say Nothing will ever go wrong If I tried to guarantee that You wouldn't believe me The But having spent Kind of about a decade Working on that Both transporting by ship And by train At the moment In this country Move these materials Round by train Often moved through You know The centre of London In very heavy In very highly developed casks And it's quite interesting If you go on YouTube There's a There's a Quite an old video now But one was done In the 80s Of showing how strong These casks are And what happens Is they run a They run a locomotive Into a cask And the cask The locomotive crashes And the cask stays And it's there to demonstrate The levels of safety But so it's very What I'm saying is A trot path In terms of Particularly vitrified waste Which is the glass The glass tubes That would be That would be the case here Is how they're moved And how they're transported And finally I'm pretty sure that As you know We talked about there Would it just be A nuclear Would it just be A nuclear rail train I don't think No I don't think That's the case Because if we were Building that level Of infrastructure We'd want our Local community And willing community To benefit from that So we'd see it As absolutely Absolutely something In the wider community And making it a nuclear Only one wouldn't And as I said Currently Nuclear flasks Go up and down The network as it is now Thank you Councillor Parkinson Hi Seth I have a question I have a question Around the timescales Actually involved If a GDF was to be built So in the report It does mention Potentially hundreds Of thousands of years So I believe that's the case For some of the most dangerous Radioactive waste Things like plutonium Is typically 250,000 years When you look at the timescales Involved in uranium You're looking at billions of years That this would be in the ground That's an incredible commitment From everybody here To say we want to commit to Effectively the end of time These products being in the ground In Lincolnshire So would you be committed To ensuring the safety There's no nuclear I suppose spills Anything that leads into The local environment Forever You know Until the end of time Are you committed To ensuring the safety Of those materials? Yeah It's a big commitment To the end of time But you answer The right question So I'll come back to The international precedent Because that's what We've learnt from And There was There was a mention before Of the committee on radioactive Waste materials Quorum Which was set up To ask this exact question Not as the industry Or not as government But an independent set of experts And the view is With the right geology And the right way Of backfilling And sealing off permanently Absolutely That is the best And safest way To deal with this And you could almost argue That over the same At the minute These materials They exist now They're being stored They're being stored Above ground Very safely I might add There's a lot of focus Around that Between the two You know Keeping it on surface forever Versus this permanent disposal That is absolutely The best way forward That's what the scientific evidence shows And there's lots of work Around things like It's probably where your question's going You know What if water gets in And gets into the water table So all that's taken account of And that's why in NWS We have so many geologists Whose whole specialism Is how water moves through rocks And what the right type of rocks are And what the right type of rocks are Thank you Seth Any other questions? Sorry Councillor French About you providing jobs And training for local people Are the jobs and training Going to be Kind of low level things Where you're essentially Providing like a forklift licence For somebody Or is it going to be More long term High level stuff Where you're maybe getting People's scholarships For degrees In nuclear physics Or engineering A really good question It would be both If we're making If we're making As a nation If we're making a commitment To build a GDF This is not something That kind of Takes two years And you switch it off again You need to build up You need to build up The capabilities and skills So there would be A whole mixture of jobs on this There would be some Some highly technical jobs That require You know High levels of education And we would certainly Be working With With schools And local colleges On that sort of thing But there would also be Some really important Kind of as you say Forklift jobs Jobs in the supply chain Supporting it I think all are really I think that's what you're saying All are really valid But it wouldn't be a case of If the concern is Would we import a load Of specialist jobs Only for them to leave A couple of years later You physically can't do this With this scale of This scale of construction So we definitely Would be investing in that Thank you Seth Any other questions? Right Thank you very much Seth Kybert Right On to our third speaker I would like to invite Mike Crooks Chairman of the Guardians Of the East Coast GoTec Thank you very much Chair Members of the committee Thank you very much Thank you very much For the opportunity to come And address you I'm here today To urge Lincolnshire County Council To withdraw from its ongoing Involvement With nuclear waste services Regarding a proposal To bury nuclear waste Beneath the Lincolnshire coast For almost five years This project has proceeded In the face of overwhelming And sustained local opposition That opposition Includes Dame Andrea Jenkins Right Honourable Victoria Atkins All county councillors In East Lindsay All district councillors Representing Mablethorpe And Feddlethorpe East Lindsay District Council Mablethorpe And Sutton County Council Sorry District Council Parish councils In Feddlethorpe Withan Carleton Gayton Reston Techni And Holton Leclay Community sentiment Is not ambiguous Multiple independent polls Both from GoTec And from parish Parish level polls In Thedlethorpe And Gayton La Marche Have consistently shown That between 80 And 90% Of local residents Opposed this project And want it stopped immediately Even NWS's own Public engagement efforts Reinforce this Last year They held a road show Across eight venues Inviting residents Via post Of the 300 Sorry Of the 535 attendees 93% participated In a confidential exit poll The results of that Were that 84% of them Said that they'd got enough information To make a formal decision On the process And an informed decision 93% of those That voted Wanted it to stop Now These findings align With every public survey Except those conducted By NWS Written survey Using a contractor Yonder We question the credibility Of those surveys With Yonder The NWS survey Is leading Biased And overly lengthy 40 minute process Designed to steer responses In other words A garden path survey Many residents Simply didn't want To engage Under those conditions We've repeatedly Asked for transparency Basic raw data Like refusal rates And have been ignored Further A previous door to door survey Conducted by NWS Yet was discredited Responses were altered By NWS staff Calling into question The integrity of their data This project This project is supposed to rely On the support Of a willing host community After almost five years The message is unequivocal This is not a willing community The consequences are being felt Residents are suffering Residents are suffering Mental health issues Now as we speak Due to the prolonged uncertainty What on earth Are they going to do With their lives And how is this going to impact Them in future They've seen their house sales Fall through They've seen property values Plummet The local tourism industry Is at risk We highlighted in our first report Which copies within the report pack What the potential impact would be On the tourism industry That would far outweigh any benefits Potentially Of A railway line Potentially Or potentials for this Or potentials for that It's all pie in the sky At this present moment in time In summary All indicators point to one conclusion 85% of residents want this project stopped We therefore ask this committee To recommend that Linkershire County Council Executive Formerly withdraw from this project It is time to listen to the community And bring this damaging process To an end Thank you Thank you Mike I now invite the members of the board To ask any follow-up questions Have we got any questions? Councillor Dyer Thank you very much Chairman And thank you Mike for the report Just some questions following on From what you've just You've just put to committee You mentioned the polls The community polls And I remember speaking to Dan McNally about this A few months ago About what had been carried out In some of the parishes there So I'm aware of I'm aware that they've been carried out But just similar to the question I asked earlier In respect to those polls Do we know And I appreciate we won't be able to say For every single one But who was voting in them? Was it one vote per household? Was it adults in households? Was it younger people, teenagers? I'm not asking that as a trick question I just want to understand In respect to community involvement In those polls Do we know who it is? Now again I think I understand That it might be different For each poll Just furthermore Just two more questions on If I may And again Going back to some of the points I've asked other speakers It's flooding And the potential The benefits that may come If this all moves ahead In respect to flood defences Just what's the community view on that? Could you provide more detail? And finally And it's just something That you mentioned Towards the end of your statement there You urged the council executive Next week To formally withdraw So are you indicating That you don't want a poll? You just want the county council to withdraw If you could just provide more detail on that That would be appreciated Thank you Okay So in response Yep In terms of who in the polls I'm certainly aware That the Thedlethorpe poll Went to every household And it was a prepaid envelope That was provided To actually receive the responses back Yep So that would have been for the household Yep In terms of Gaten La Marche We understand That that was actually to individuals Within their process On their doorstep In terms of flooding Local sentiment You know This is an area that has In 1953 I believe Yeah Had a significant amount of flooding On the coastal region Certain things were put in place then And you know We would never say never Yeah From that point of view Yeah But this is jammed tomorrow You know In the X number of years The potential That this could carry on for Yeah When in that process Will this flooding barrier Or whatever it is Come into play Leave to be a good answer To the community view on flooding In terms of the no poll For four and a half years Certainly as an organisation We decided to ask the people themselves So polls have taken over Yeah From a four and a half year period So when you say about going to the test Of public support Who Who is going to be Who is going to be questioned How is it going to operate These are actually questions That we've asked previously And no answers have been forthcoming So that's why we decided to poll people Ourselves And actually to ask people What their thoughts were And then present the findings In the two of our reports That we've got So therefore Yeah I think the poll has gone This is now time To put it To bed Thank you Mike Any other questions? Councillor Brooks Thank you chair Just on seller fields I've been led to believe There was a leak there Recently Which is slowing down So that's why I'm concerned about The worst case scenario Thank you all For your presentations Over the previous month I've been knocking on Hundreds of doors And I asked the same question Regarding the site And it was overwhelmingly no I was only told yes By one person But I asked them all The same question I feel the risk Is too great To the tourism And the residents I believe We should withdraw From this process To be honest It's not been transparent From the front And that's where I stand Thank you very much Thank you councillor Brooks Any further questions? Any further questions? No Right I'd like to invite Councillor Bailey Robinson Who represents Salt Fleet And the Coats To address the board For up to three minutes Thank you Bailey Thank you I was recently elected As the councillor For the division In which the nuclear Waste facility Was moved to in January Being a site Between Great Carlton And Gatenley Marsh I stood on a main priority In my campaign No to the Lincolnshire Nuclear waste dump And this was the first Official vote for residents To voice their concerns For the nuclear waste facility On May the 1st Salt Fleet in the Coats Voted for myself With 1,453 votes Being 47% of the vote A majority of 631 However Combining all candidates Standing on a firm Anti-GDF platform Which includes The independent candidate Also This majority rises To 1,115 votes Over candidates Who stood neutrally The Conservatives Were even politically Motivated to change Their stance A month before the vote Increasing that majority Even more Give or take That's a pretty clear Indication Of public opinion On the doorstep This was the number One concern From Gatenley Marsh To South Reston To Grimmelby And Manby People were urging Whoever had the power To stop it In its tracks The amount of Long term stress And anxiety This has put on residents In my division Is appalling And the fact that many Were still unaware After four years Of what a GDF was Just shows the lack Of communication From the NWS The NWS Admit themselves That from their own research Only 27% of residents Feel that they have Enough information To decide on the GDF They have had four years To ease the concerns Of local residents Educate and support The local community To understand What this means For the local area They have failed Information regarding A potential site Should have been Provided To the communities Affected Debated And voted on Many years ago The community Were an integral part Of the process And would have had The support of the public To move forward Due to the failings Of the NWS And the previous administration That is no longer On the table This new council Has the opportunity To reshape The economy And create incentives For businesses To invest in our local area Without selling out Our rural communities For nuclear waste Under their feet We can do better than this Lincolnshire Deserves better Thank you Thank you Thank you Bailey I would like to invite Members of the board To ask any follow up Questions To Bailey Anybody got any questions? No? No? Right I would like to invite The members of the board To make any relevant statements I need to direct Any further questions To the officers There we go Councillor Davis Thank you Thank you Just for clarification Are we in the general debate now? Thank you Just to get a little bit Of housekeeping out of the way There has been some allegations I've heard informally About whipping on this On issues And I can confirm That I don't tell Councillor Dyer How to dress Despite what looks May otherwise allude to Thank you very much To everybody Who's come along This morning And thank you to colleagues Across the floor For your discussions And your passionate words At the back It's really difficult When discussing anything like this Because I think it's important To remember where we are And who we are We are not the government We aren't designated Decision makers On how the government Disposes of its nuclear waste And I talked to somebody You know Somebody who used to be In the Navy And spent time very close To some of these hot things Subsequently I've worked at places Like Oldermast And so on I'm not anti the technology I'm not anti-nuclear Perhaps I'd suggest Nobody in this room is But let's come back To those core questions That Andy Gutherson Asked at the beginning Are the community Suitably informed? The absolute answer Is no We've heard that From the community partnership We've heard it From the gentleman From NWS We've heard it From the gentleman From GoTek We've heard it From a variety of members Who represent these people directly We've had five years And we still aren't informing people We're still in this realm of Probably Possibly It may happen You know Forgive me Andy Gutherson But my experience With the planning system Is that Probably means possibly And possibly means no The reality is In all of these situations When we get to the end Of the process All of the fine words The nice brochures The nice They're always Everything's always sun shining In these brochures aren't they? All of that will disappear And it will be the local residents Who will be left Picking up the pieces With so many broken promises And that's just not acceptable The other question Next question Is there a level of opposition? Well It almost goes without saying The fact that we're having this discussion We've heard So firm numbers from GoTek And even from NWS I think would be the first to agree That there is no real public support for this Question two answered So then the third and final question Sits with us Is there scope for further work? And that's exactly the question That was posited in the opening question And I'm afraid for me That was answered during that Last part of your discussion Seth Oh well We may be on site Back end of 2030, 2040 It is simply unacceptable For us to sit here Not as government decision makers For how the nuclear industry works It's We don't define that What we define is What is our engagement With the local community As local councillors It is unacceptable For us to sit here And subject our communities To a decade and a half Of further uncertainty That's unacceptable To coin a phrase You've had your chance The chance has been given To get the homework done right And I'm afraid And I'm afraid If the scales were reversed And we were putting in an application And the line had been crossed Is when you're You know you've got to have got All your paperwork in By this certain date There would have come a point Where a planning authority Would say no I'm sorry You've missed your cut off I think we're at that stage colleagues And I would like to formally propose From the floor That we ask the executive To immediately withdraw from this process And cite a clear message To our communities That it's a no From Lincolnshire County Council And I ask for a seconder I second that I second that Thank you Thank you Councillor Davis Have we got anybody else Sorry Councillor Crawley Thank you Yes I'd like to speak on that If that's okay Chairman So To be clear Our role in this Has always been To be analytical And a new decision Not a County Council Decision But Chairman It must also be understood In this context As a local authority We must always be mindful As we heard From Seth That infrastructure And service delivery Decisions are made For the benefit Of our communities We do things With and for Our communities Not to them And referencing The considerations Set out In the paper Before us today It was right at the time To engage With the process To allow our communities The time to understand What was being proposed And what the impact On their environment Present and future Would be But since this process Has started Our communities Have made their feelings Clear And the proposal Has changed significantly From that which Was initially presented And we've heard And we've heard from Mr. Gutherson And Mr. Crooks That there has been Vociferous local opposition So therefore I am happy to second This proposition To withdraw completely From this process Thank you Thank you Councillor Corey Councillor Dilks Councillor Dilks Councillor Dilks Councillor Dilks Councillor Dilks Thank you I've got to say I've always had an open mind On this whole question From 2021 When it was first announced I've been neutral on it As the paperwork So it says And clearly Nobody wants Hazardous radioactive waste The worst possible kind In their backyard So You know The criteria Of Requiring a willing community Is always going to be A real challenge You know Good luck with that And You know As you say We've been looking since I think somebody said Andy said The nation's been looking For a place since 2008 And I'm sure We're going to be looking For another 20 years At least I mean There is a bit Of a dilemma here Isn't there You know Nobody wants The waste in their backyard But I think all major parties Of government And those Seeking government Would Accept That Nuclear Is Part of our future Nuclear power Has to be Part of our future But It brings with it This waste And it has to be dealt with And I've always had the view That Whilst I didn't I've never sort of supported The Proposal Proposal I've always felt that If It can be shown That This is the best And safest place To put this stuff Then We have a responsibility To listen To those arguments And And Sort of move forward On that base I do sense I do sense As I think Lindsay said Councillor Corey said The proposals Changed somewhat From Thedlethorpe And I think Thedlethorpe Was Perhaps More acceptable Than What we've now got You know A Greenfield site Which seems to be A few miles away And Thedlethorpe Obviously being You know A North You know It was built Gassing From the North Sea So it's kind of Almost related to that But It seems to me What I've heard This morning Is And I didn't hear a response There wasn't an opportunity For Seth To To come back On On Whether it's Likely That you can meet The criteria Of having a willing community And It just seems to me That that is highly unlikely At this stage Given all what we've We've heard This morning So I think On that basis I support The The motion That has been put To the board This morning Thank you Thank you Councillor Dilks Any other questions Anybody else to speak Okay Councillor Parkinson Thank you I want to come back To my point That I made Earlier To Seth When When I've been Sat there at night Reading this proposal Looking at the information It is incredibly scary Around the time scales That we're going to be Looking at here Humanity in itself Has existed for around 300,000 years Plutonium 239 Plutonium 239 Which will be part Of the storage The most dangerous Waste That will be included In this facility Will be safe In around 240,000 years Time Now Plutonium 239 Plutonium 239 Is incredibly dangerous It's a gamma emitter Of radiation The most dangerous Form of radiation That can be With this facility We have to acknowledge That we are putting Something Incredibly Incredibly Incredibly Dangerous That physically Kills people Causes deformities In people Destroys the natural Environment A small level Below our surface And we're making That commitment For a minimum Of nearly a quarter Of a million years That's not just Our generation Or the next generation Or the generation After that We're making a commitment To thousands Of generations That follow on From us On the decisions That we make here today So I think It's really clear That this board And this council Understands the gravity Of the decision That we're making Here today We are making A commitment For many Many Many centuries That follow on Before us And I think We need to be Really clear On the understanding Of the implications This could have If in 200,000 years Time things change There is an accident They're going to be The ones that are Going to have to Clean this up Huge efforts to ensure That people aren't Going to get hurt There's all things Like radiation We need to understand That this is a massive Decision for us And I just want the board And all the members On the facts Behind that Thank you Thank you Councillor Parkinson Can I ask Andy Gutherson A question Councillor Dyer Thank you very much Chairman I'd just like to I've already said My question In respect to How the ballot Be carried out My questions Around how That process Would be completed I'm just wondering I'm just wondering Andy If you can come back To those questions That I asked earlier In respect to How do you believe That that ballot Would be carried out That test of public support But if you could Once I've finished speaking Come back on that I would appreciate that Chairman But for nearly four years This council We've been engaging In this process Surrounding the GDF At NWS You've had ample time To present the case To all stakeholders And to move This scheme forward And whilst This proposal As you rightly said Today Is undeniably complex The glacial pace That this has moved forward And has progressed Has been deeply frustrating For residents Within the search area But also for the surrounding Communities as well And having followed this For almost four years I recognise That there are both pros And cons Citing the GDF In Lincolnshire And that they've been Discussed today So we must be crystal clear About this There are potential benefits And that's such as The improved flood risk mitigation And supporting the Environment agency's Responsibilities And also the enhanced Transport links as well And the creation Of many well paid jobs For local people However chairman We all must understand That that price For these benefits Is the siting of a GDF In our county And that's something That we should keep At the front of our minds And as far as I'm concerned Chairman We've just witnessed A clear test Of public support You know My party Not in control Of the council Anymore And we can fit In a mini bus A big mini bus A big mini bus A big mini bus Yeah not a small sized one A big one At least 14 seats But the new leader Of the council Made a firm commitment During the election campaign And I'm pleased He's here today And I quote A comment that you made On social media If reform controls The council After the election We will cancel The NWS agreement Day one No confusion And absolute So despite the efforts Of many dedicated Conservative councillors Reform now controls This council And with the control Comes the responsibility And the power To honour the promises That you made To the electorate In the election So chairman We cannot afford Dithering or delay We heard it last week That this new administration Wants to cut costs Wants to move things forward Wants to cut out bureaucracy Well I think Councillor Davies' amendment To the proposal Here today Is absolutely right And you're absolutely right Councillor Davies To propose that amendment The original report recommendation Only prolongs the uncertainty It wastes more public money And it continues a process That the people Have already clearly rejected The people have spoken And the promises have been made So now it is time For this council to act The council has a clear And simple choice before it today Honour the democratic will of the people Or betray it Reform UK councillors Were elected on a pledge Not a possibility Not a maybe But a promise So I say this chairman And I'll be very clear in that Keep your word End the uncertainty And show the people of Lincolnshire That their voices still matter Vote for this amendment And let today be the day We finally draw a line Under this flawed And unwanted process Thank you Andy could you answer Thank you very much Thank you Councillor Dyer In the context of the formal test Of public support That is a dozen of different ways Of that could have been potentially Taken forward In terms of the recommendation It was balanced And tied into the question That I posed at the beginning Of everyone's time Thank you Andy Any more speakers? Councillor Brooks Thank you chair I just want to clarify on the motion It says that we want to withdraw straight away Doesn't it have to go to the exec board To make the decision next week So we can only recommend to withdraw Is that right? Yes it's a proposal for the executive Any other speakers? Any other speakers? Can I move the vote? Yes Okay The proposal That the executive Immediately withdraw from this process Sending a clear message to our communities Those in favour? Those in favour? Those against? That's carried That's carried Thank you very much I didn't know it was unanimous Right What are we doing for time? Thank you very much Andy Right Does anybody Shall we take a break? Five minute break? Yeah Take a five minute break Awesome And we'll return for the next section Thank you Okay Now on to the Next section The Strategic Technology Partner Contract Award The next pre-decision scrutiny report Can be found on pages 47 to 74 of the agenda pack This report seeks the executive approval of the appointment of a new strategic technology partner STP Following a competitive procurement process to deliver full management IT service Enhance cyber security and modern digital capabilities It also seeks to endorse a new IT structure and operating model that will optimize processes, consolidate systems, improve digital user experience and drive significant efficiencies across the council The executive are due to consider the report for decision on the 3rd of June Our actions in terms of input requested from the board are The members of the overview and scrutiny management board consider the report and determine whether members support the recommendation to the executive set out on page 50 And agree the board's comments to pass to be passed on to the executive in relation to this item This report will be presented by Tom Baker, Chief Information Officer, Ben Crow, Head of Commercial Infrastructure is also in attendance I wish to remind members that Appendix A to this report contains exempt information under paragraph 3 of part 1 of schedule 12A of the Local Government Act 1972 Should you wish to ask questions specifically relating to this appendix Please indicate and we will move to a closed debate Now over to you, Tom Thank you, Chair My name's Tom Baker, I'm Chief Information Officer for LCC I've been in post now for around 12 months And over that 12 month period this has been my primary occupation focus This contract is of huge importance to the council Technology, laptops, systems, services are used every single day by every member or every officer of this organisation It's integral to 200 different sites We operate an infrastructure that composes many hundreds of servers Network switches, wireless access points In summary, a complex and critical piece of infrastructure That is the very foundation of service delivery So the report here details the process that we've been through To get to a preferred bidder for our strategic technology partnership contract And the report and the paper here out It asks for endorsement of the approach that we've set out And it asks for an endorsement of an outline Target operating model within the council's retained IT function To segue and to work with the new provider coming through The report's considered a couple of other options other than progressing down an outsourcing route Ability within Lincolnshire unfortunately for some of these capabilities And our ability to deliver services as required Insourcing's also been discounted due to a lack of economy of scale But also then an increased pressure to manage supply chains Further options have been considered Which include the amendment of the existing agreement This is absolutely not recommended We are at the end of the current relationship that exists with Serco We've exercised all extensions to that contract And we are now due to come to an end in March of next year In terms of background, the council outsourced its IT service provision Over 20 years ago now Initially to an organisation called Michelle And subsequently through a retendering exercise to Serco In 2015, a decade ago In advance of the contract ending with Serco In 2024, the council previously embarked on an insourcing and multisourcing strategy This was aborted in late 2022 Primarily, as I've described down to a lack of local technical expertise The current contract with Serco covers a number of key services These include, but are not limited to, end user support So this is a provision of laptops, desktops, tablets, smartphones This also covers off access to key line of business systems Everything from Microsoft Office port Are different service areas It also covers off some of the services that you may have used yourselves The tech bar that we've got in this building that allows people hugely important from the size and scale of this organisation It receives many, many calls, thousands over the course of a year And is an integral part in making sure that the council continues to operate effectively IT support services, cover off areas such as the Wi-Fi network, network connectivity, email provision, secure storage of files and documents, and monitoring and maintaining the IT infrastructure We also receive some projects and technical delivery to supporters with new system implementation, design and coordination of programmes All of these services are critical and will continue to be provided via the new agreement The current IT service though is reflective of the contract which was signed over 10 years ago It lacks the sort of transformative capabilities that we're now seeing becoming prevalent within many areas, government, local government and the private sector Access to the skills to support us delivering streamlined and effective services It lacks access to technologies such as AI and the skills to support those capabilities Moving forwards and developing the case for change The new leadership team came in as a result of the failed insourcing strategy in 2024 Myself and the management team have been here for almost a year, well over a year now Fundamentally we've looked to stabilise the service that we've got at this point in time And we've also looked to pick up some issues that were prevalent when coming into the organisation Over the last 12 months we've enacted a significant remedial programme To address issues around resilience and cyber security The fact that these issues existed I think is reflective of the sort of contract that we've had in place And the management of that contract previously So as I was saying, the last 10 years have been a period of significant change Digital four technologies like cloud computing are now commonplace Automation and AI are being used by organisations to drive efficiencies, improve services and reduce costs Cyber security continues to be a critical issue Seldom a day goes by without turning on the news to hear about another organisation that has been hacked We must move with the times and we must build out the capabilities that will protect the council and also the people of Lincolnshire Technologies have also radically developed with respect to the management of devices Capabilities are now far more packed users and we must again move with the times Collaboration and the use of capabilities has come on leaps and bounds We all use teams in our day-to-day roles The ability to share and collaborate on documents Drives and facilitates innovation across organisations The role of information and data is becoming more and more pronounced We must understand the services that we provide We must place the right data capabilities It's hugely important And all of these areas, all of these new areas of development Are covered off by the new contract Alongside putting in place the contract and the tendering exercise We're also looking to restructure About a capability within the council That is reflective of the sort of skills that we need to manage The suppliers that we've got We can't outsource our responsibility Especially around areas such as cyber security Support that oversight, that assurance, that ownership Of technical strategy, cyber security We'll have a key focus on service management Making sure partner to account And that we work with them to continually improve services For the benefit of end users And that that is done in a way that reflects The greatest possible value to the organisation We also want to work with a partner that Is important to us, but we're also important to them We also want to move to a new model of delivery We will work with the new partner organisation to build out Efficient and safe core IT capabilities To support the council becoming more effective And we'll do that using modern agile methodologies We'll focus on key products such as AI and automation And we will build out a process that's based on business value To ensure that we are providing and creating an opportunity Whereby we can materially improve services, speed of delivery, cost of delivery But also ensuring that they are progressively more transparent So in terms of the procurement In April 2024, the council executive approved a new IT service delivery model And we started to look to move on that whole process Contractually objectives were to improve the IT experience of staff To establish a strategic partnership And to increase the council's security posture The procurement plan was then initiated via a competitive procedure negotiation CPM, the service as I've described Lends itself to that sort of procedure Also managing and dealing with the legacy contract that we've got It provided multiple delivery options And prevented or incentivised the opportunity for innovation to come back from the market It supported us with complex commercial considerations And it also facilitated limited but constructive dialogue through that process The contract term was defined at this point of a seven-year contract With a two plus two year extension facility We think that this contract offers the right balance between a long-term partnership Whilst retaining flexibility The contract also contains a number of mechanisms To incentivise the new partner to provide an innovative service One that's continually improving There's also a number of mechanisms available to us around termination At our convenience There's all strong set of mechanisms with respect to key performance indicators So we can absolutely manage the supplier going further forwards Even within that contract term The contract itself has a number of key strategic principles The first one is provision of an evergreen estate We want to get to a point where Throughout digital transformation Effective exploitation of new IT capabilities And we think that we've achieved that Also within the contract there is a significant focus on social value And there are a number of initiatives described within that to support both staff and Lincolnshire residents With skills and digital capabilities From a resourcing standpoint TUPI regulations will clearly apply with respect to the existing supplier And we feel that there is a well-trodden path that has been articulated extremely clearly By the incoming partner with respect to that process We also have noted through this process that the preferred bidder is growing rapidly And that a lot of their workforce comes from a two-person perspective So in summary and in conclusion The outsource of the IT service provider to the new incoming partner is absolutely critical It is essential to safeguard the services that we all rely on every day We think it will deliver a highly effective evergreen core technology estate That will enable innovation as well as day-to-day services The IT restructure alongside the adoption of modern agile product team capabilities We feel we will be at the forefront in enabling efficiencies across the organisation And new ways of doing things The new contract represents a material opportunity Both to drive savings from the current Serco cost base And to leverage the organisation Thank you Chair Thank you Tom I would like to invite members of the board to make any relevant statements and ask any questions Councillor Dyer Thank you very much Chairman I believe I subbed on OSMB when you last came to the committee Or at least when you were going out To commence this process And I think it cannot be underestimated just how important this is To both this council and the residents that we serve across Lincolnshire Because if this goes wrong One it is an awful PR case for the council But actually this is essential life or death services that we provide So making sure that we get this right and it is suitable way into the future is absolutely essential And I can see from what you have managed Tom From when you came on board the organisation to where you are today You and your team have put an immense amount of work into this And I think it is commendable and hopefully the committee approves your recommendation today My one question from the report chairman if I may It is Tom's report But hopefully the executive members may be able to answer If you are unable to There is within the report an element of capital costs and capital funding And you mentioned that within your report The having an evergreen system etc There is a capital cost I believe of approximately 10.6 million But I appreciate within the report there are some savings that have been made in there My question to you is this capital cost to set this system up Will this be funded through prudential borrowing Or will it be met internally through the council's own reserves Because my question would be how does that stack up with Reform UK's manifesto pledge Not to borrow funding to fund council services So we have had 90 million pounds for the North Highcombe Relief Road already confirmed And now there is a capital cost to the council of between 10 to 15 million pounds So I just wonder what the administration's view is on that policy Thank you Andy Cook I will take the first part of it It is an allowable answer I do not think there is anything specific around sensitivities I think we have set out in the report that we are just about to go through the year end financial process For the council Thank you Councillor Davies Oh sorry You are 50 this council term You lot don't want him do you? No? No I don't think so No thank you in all seriousness Thank you for the work you have done I know since my previous role as portfolio I covered IMT The work Tom and his team have done is brilliant And I think this report is testament to that There is by no small measure a huge amount of work that is gone And I think Tom's calm effort and dare I say stress at times has gone through So it is a testament to you and the team Thank you Tom I do have a question on page 66 which I think may fall into exempt That I would like to get into a little bit of the detail And whether you chairman wish to handle any non-exempt questions first And then just pick that up If we could do non-exempt first and then we will go to close We will continue Are there any other non-exempt questions? Councillor French When we are talking about these cyber security threats Is there anything that you are aware of or What kind of stuff are we looking at here that could happen or is happening potentially? We have only got a few minutes I guess but I mean it is everything from nation state activities to hacktivists in their bedroom And everything in between attacks and relatively unsophisticated activities all the way to spearfishing And I think you have seen probably some of the stuff in the press And you know sort of sitting down and looking at how identity has been compromised Concerned about and we need to be vigilant about And cyber security is something that we have invested heavily in Over the last the last 12 months And maybe maybe we can we can expand on this question as we move into into the next section because there's this thing with information perspective Thank you Tom any other questions? Question councillor Parkinson Thank you and I know that obviously there's been a move to outsourcing a lot of these services now and I completely understand the need for more brains and ability to outsource it I also wouldn't feel that I'm doing the right thing to my constituents without asking Is there anything further that we can do to help the people of Lincolnshire in terms of providing jobs or certain roles to them to have as much locally as we can given our responsibilities to our constituents? Yeah, thank you for the question and it's something that I'm quite passionate about I think digital skills are integral whether you work in IT or whether you don't actually I think some of the things that we're seeing with AI I see how that's going to impact the world of work I think it's so important that people have got a grasp of these capabilities and they can use them to facilitate their own careers I appreciate that this this stuff isn't for everybody but there is a big opportunity I think to sort of grow skills Through the partnership that we're proposing they're talking about supporting communities to drive more of a digital inclusion approach And there's some more detail that we can probably go into in the next section around that In terms of what I think we should be doing from a service perspective Mid last year sort of a couple of months after joining the organization I recommended that we we join the British Computing Society So it's the UK effectively professional body for the IT industry So that now means every member of the council IT team is MBCS They're a member of the British Computing Society What it also means that they've got access to training material Courses, online content At a really, really sort of very, very affordable rate I think it costs us somewhere in the region of £8,000 a year for our membership So I think that's a huge thing and we're looking intently at development plans What we'd also like to do as we move through the restructure is to look at closer working relationships with the university But also to think about making sure that we're growing our own For people working not in the IT function but more broadly across the organization So what we want to do is leverage new capabilities and they're within the contract So I'll give you a sort of flavour of what that means, right? So historically you might have had to go and replace your laptop if it failed What we're proposing through this new partnership touch model That laptops will be built when connected to a network And instead of going somewhere to a tech bar We'll have locker facilities You'll get a QR code, you'll go to the locker, you'll open the locker And you'll pick up your laptop Now if you're a social worker working out of hours, etc. That's a huge benefit So we want to use some of those technologies to provide a better, more streamlined core service That are going to facilitate a more effective way of doing things And even basic things like something called Microsoft Copilot It's AI but it helps reduce caseloads In some instances down from 40 to zero So what we want to do is to really support the organization in taking those next steps We know that we need to do probably more with the same or more with less in some instances And leveraging sorts of capabilities will mean that we're more effective And that means training for everybody So multi-pronged approach but very different sort of contract and relationship and service to the one that we've got now Thank you, Tom. Any other questions? Not restricted? I have one, Tom, if I may What safeguards are in place to prevent the council becoming overly dependent on a single provider? And how will we make sure the contract continues to offer good value over time? Yeah, so a couple of couple of questions there If I'll give you an example I think it's a really important one It goes back to the cyber security piece We are stipulating within the contract Adherence to certain standards And those standards are endorsed by UK government agencies And they are tailored for use by local government Something called a cyber assurance framework And we get accredited against that framework And we've been through a process with our colleagues in Fire and Rescue To achieve effectively certification, if you like We've also been part of the early adopter program Because that's going to be rolled out more widely So that was something that we did last year And we're working towards full accreditation in November time So that's one element of what we'll do We'll also take a risk-based view around cyber security And that means, again, most prescriptive framework out there that says You should be doing this in terms of patching devices You should have these controls and processes in place When you're managing identity and access to things Security operations centre of SOC Now that is a third party So we will work with the new supplier To maintain those standards To stay in the industry To make sure that nothing untoward is happening So we think that we've got a really good mix And we're building out a sort of multi-layer assurance I can go on if you want But there's other things Thank you, Tom Any other? Councillor Brooks Thank you, Chair It's just a quick one, Tom Thank you so much for the report I love it I love AI All fantastic for me Just a question I was going to ask about Plan B But I see you just said we've got a third party Is that price going to include the third party Or is that an extra cost it's going to be? And say if some cyber attack Or it goes bust or something like that Have we got a Plan B? Thank you So I guess there's always that possibility That organisations may have financial difficulties As part of this process I'm working alongside my colleague here, Ben And colleagues in the finance function We review the financial position of organisation To allow us to be confident in their provision We feel we've got an organisation with a good financial standing I think, to your point, is there a Plan B? It's interesting The world of technology, I guess Part of what we're doing as printers The resilient, we want the data replicated across the piece Our wide area network contract will be separate to this one So there's a degree of capabilities that sit within it And again, working with that organisation The innovation of contracts You do that anyway as part of, you know, sort of wrapping one says Thank you, Tom Any other questions? Right, okay Thanks for your comments and questions This now concludes a public session for this item As we need to move to a closed debate I will read this In accordance to the section 100A For the Local Government Act 1972 The following agenda item has been circulated to the press and public On the grounds that it is considered to contain exempt information As defined in paragraph 3 of part 1 of schedule 12A of the Local Government Act 1972 As amended The personal public may be excluded from this meeting for the consideration of this item of business I move that we proceed with the consideration of item 12 in a private session Do I have a seconder? Councillor Davies We will now vote, those in favour? Those in favour? Those against? Therefore it's carried Any abstentions? We will now take a short minute, five minute break to switch into a private session Once we are offline we will continue Thank you Thank you Thank you to the members of public and press who are still with us Following consideration of the information in the report And assurances given by officers in both the public and private sessions I have a suggested proposal I move that the board supports the recommendation to the executive As detailed on page 50 of the report And I ask that our comments As these have been captured by the scrutiny officer Be shared with the executive for their consideration on the 3rd of June Do I have a seconder? Councillor Brooks, those in favour? Those against? Any abstentions? Thank you, that is agreed Okay, lastly Scrutiny report work programme Thank you chairman Conscious of time This is really for information only It's fair to say that the work programme in this committee is a work in progress And any amendments will be reported to the board in due course Any member of the board has an account When we amend it as and when And that's it chairman I'm happy to answer any questions But it is really for information only Any questions? Councillor Dyer Thank you very much chairman Can I, I appreciate this is still being populated at the moment Can I propose that perhaps in 12 months time I appreciate we have the annual scrutiny review But there's a review of the scrutiny functions of the county council Given the changes in the constitution approved by council last week I think it's only fair and reasonable that there is a review of the scrutiny functions of the county council in the year's time Just so we've seen how those changes have bedded in And we can see moving forward if they are providing a fit for purpose scrutiny arrangement of the council So could that be scheduled in for March, April time next year after we've had about a year of the changes in play? Yes, we'll certainly look at that Councillor Brooks I'll second that proposal, chair Okay, I move that the report be received and noted Can you please raise your hands if you agree? Anyone disagree? Any abstentions? It's passed This concludes the business of the meeting Thank you everyone for your attendance Thank you everyone for your attendance